Pre-fader TRIM in logic?

pro tools has a pre-fader TRIM plug-in... with it, you can attenuate a track BEFORE it hits a plug in.
does anyone know if there is an equivalent in Logic Express 7.1?
just bringing the fader down a bit doesn't work, because (as I understand it) all logic plugs are pre-fader.

In the Logic>Helper> plug in list, you will find "Gain" you can use this to do what you want. It will make sure that no peaking will happen going into the plugin.
Although many would dispute this doesn't matter as the logic mixer is 32 bit therefore has head room way above 0dB. I dunno myself and think it's worth keeping those levels down.
It also makes plugins behave more as you'd expect if the level going into them is reasonble. It's hard to stop a compressor over compressing if the level going into it is too high etc.

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Is pre-fader metering in Logic Express possible?

The manual says:
"Activation of Audio > Pre-Fader Metering ensures that the level displayed by the level meters is measured pre fader..."
But I don't have this option in Logic Express 7.2.3 - is this just me, or is it a manual misprint for a feature only available for Logic Pro?
Cheers
Powerbook G4 12 1.5GHz 512MB, iMac G3 400MHz 320MB Mac OS X (10.4.10) Logic Express 7.2.3

Logic Pro only.
"Express" = very limited version.
Cheers

In Logic X surround panner grayed in pre-fader freeze mode

In Logic X surround panner grayed - can't change anything - in pre-fader freeze mode. Logic 9 works fine. There is some new setup i loose? Thanks

the peak level display got an error -0.1db and in some cases -0.2db, when Apple will launch an update for such a serious problem? this can compromise a complete mastering

Logic Pro X pre fader send

Hi, I noticed when you select a send as pre fader in LPX it does not turn green anymore.
I thought it was good before in LP9, so that you knew it was a pre fader and not post.
Anyboby else found that?
Thanks

Hi!
I always had a hard time telling those two colors apart. So much easier now: the Pre Fader knob is to the left, the Post Fader is to the right of the square with the text "Bus".
/J

Levels and pre-fader metering

In the past I had always presumed the channel fader controlled the volume level of a softsynth. I know now that it obviously does not. It simply acts as a "faucet," so to speak. Meaning that increasing the fader level simply allows more of the synth's signal to pass.
So my question is this: Understanding that it is the instrument itself which is actually generating the signal (and consequetly the db's) should I keep all my faders at 0.00 on my audio instrument tracks and adjust the instrument levels instead when I mix? It would seem to make sense.
And in keeping with this method, as far as automation is concerned, would I be correct in assuming track volume should be automated via the instrument level?
I'm trying to keep all of this in the context of how it would be done in a studio with "real" instruments. Where the volume level is the volume level and if you want it louder you play harder or you turn up your amp. You want it softer you play your instrument softer.
I should add that this whole question/conundrum came up after I started recording with pre fader metering enabled and was quite surprised to see just how easy it is to clip a track (remembering of course that as long as no clipping is occuring at the master output I'm NOT actually clipping).

I don't know where all this "fader fear" is coming from.
In DSP terms, making something louder or quieter is simply a really simple DSP calculation. It doesn't matter whether you turn you softsynth down 3dB, or turn the fader down 3dB, the end result is exactly the same.
The faders are there for easy controlling of levels. It's why mixers were invented and designed this way.
I think these days someone reads a post on some esoteric audio forum about how their mix was so much better when they left the fader at 0dB in some obscure DAW back in the 90's, and translate that into "I must never use faders" or "I must never EQ" or "I must effectively work out my mix beforehand by my mic choice and positioning so all the signals magically combine into an artistic mix."
I'm trying to keep all of this in the context of how it would be done
in a studio with "real" instruments. Where the volume level is the
volume level and if you want it louder you play harder or you turn
up your amp.
You completely lost me here. Learning about gain staging is Elementary Audio Engineering Class 2 (the one afer the "what is a signal", and "what is a transducer").
You set the level of your recording device or mixer's input depending on the item you are recording, so the natural sound of whatever your source is corresponds to some nominal level for your recorder. It doesn't just magically happen on its own.
If you're recording an instrument that doesn't put out much sound level, you use the mic preamp to boost the signal to an appropriate recording level. And if you're recording Concorde taking off, you adjust your preamp, probably turning it down or padding the signal, again so it fits the range of your recorder.
Softsynths can put out a lot of level, and many preset designers don't pay much attention to volume levels in their patches. In addition, when you play a patch polyphonically, you're mixing together multiple signals (each of the notes you are playing) so you end up with higher levels still. It's good practice to pull down the output of the synth if it's too hot, but generally speaking, and avoiding getting into any "levels in Logic" complexities here, using the fader in Logic is exactly the same process.
Faders don't bite. Use 'em.

Pre Fader Metering Query...

Hello to all,
I've been following a couple of threads recently and the topic of Pre Fader Metering has come up in regards to the level of the final stereo Output. I would like a little more clarification on this.
My individual track levels often times are in the "red" Pre Fader, but that seemingly never has anything to do with my final stereo output level; it's my Post Fader level of each track that affects it.
How, if at all, does the Pre Fader level affect the final stereo output? Since Logic has 32-bit floating point architecture, isn't there a ton of headroom on individual track level and its like impossible to really overload/clip?
Thanks in advance for any insight on this.
M-DAY

Yeah - sorry for the headrush, that thread was a doozy!
Yes, the same issues occur on for plugins in any audio path - if they use a fixed-point implementation, like for instance some Waves plugins do, or have low input headroom, then you can be distorting the audio through the input stage before the plugin is even doing anything, if you send in high or over-0dB values.
It is quite posible to clip the outputs slightly without really hearing much - the ear is used to small amounts of distortion, but you are damaging and changing the audio by doing so. Some people like this effect and even use it regularly.
Personally, there is a very good argument for keeping mix levels way below the 0dB point - 24-bit audio is fine for this, you don't lose resolution by turning the volume down, which is a popular misconception.
And any distortion you add into the chain, make sure it's introduced and controlled by an artistic decision, not a side-effect of not understanding what's happening...

Pre Fader AUX Sends....

Is it possible to set up aux sends in Logic to be pre fader?
Dual G5 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

I've been looking through the manuals and menu's and I have not found the Pre-fader option.... Could you direct me to whatever menu I need to go to?
2.7Ghz Dual G5 | RME Fireface 800 | Tonelux Mixer

Pre-fader vs. post-fader metering

I generally avoid any internal clipping on my virtual instruments by making use of logic's pre-fader metering option, is this really necessary?
Which is best, mix post fader and forget about internal levels of plug-ins, instruments etc. or always make sure there is no internal clipping?
What are the results really when making sure there is no post or pre fader clipping?

Chance Harper wrote:
I did a quick experiment to see what the result would be if I overloaded or pushed the internal volume of a plug-in but made sure the output channel wasn't clipping VS. a plug-in that got leveled pre and post.
I used only a drum kit from battery 3 with a simple riff. Pushed the plug-ins overall volume to +6.0dB and then made sure my post fader level wasn't clipping, both of them then got mastered using ozone 4.
Both of the tracks reached the same RMS level, neither of the two sounded louder than the other.
The one I pushed up in the plug-in sounded a bit squashed and not as clear or pure as the one that considered the pre and post fader metering. The drums sounded way more defined and clear when ensuring both pre-and post metering wasn't clipping.
It does seem that by ensuring none of your virtual stuff clips internally you get purer sound.
Of course I am sure you could still get a great sound if you internally only pushed it over by 2dBs. Still think it's best though to mix pre and post as a rule. Any comments?
Message was edited by: Chance Harper
Message was edited by: Chance Harper
Message was edited by: Chance Harper
again, i would agree with BeeJay's original reply to the original post. it's not good practice to let internal levels fly out of control and there's really no good reason to. and i would also agree that keeping levels lower result in better quality mixes.

Pre-Fader Sends

When assigning a "Send" going to a reverb bus as "Pre-Fader", the signal on that track becomes audible on all other tracks. For example, placing a "Pre-Fader" reverb send onto a vocal track makes the vocals audible on any other track that I solo. I thought it may be tied to the "solo" function, so I tried muting all tracks, and I will hear vocals on any track that I un-mute. I had another Logic Pro 9 user try it on his machine and he re-created it too. Pre-Fader Sends are not that common in use, but has anyone else noticed this bug?
//Andy

PapaPugs wrote:
When assigning a "Send" going to a reverb bus as "Pre-Fader", the signal on that track becomes audible on all other tracks. For example, placing a "Pre-Fader" reverb send onto a vocal track makes the vocals audible on any other track that I solo. I thought it may be tied to the "solo" function, so I tried muting all tracks, and I will hear vocals on any track that I un-mute. I had another Logic Pro 9 user try it on his machine and he re-created it too. Pre-Fader Sends are not that common in use, but has anyone else noticed this bug?
//Andy
This is not a bug. This is how 'pre-fader' sends work.
By "pre-fader", it means that signal from your track is being sent to the reverb bus no matter what your channel's fader is set to.
When you solo a track, if it's sending any signal to the reverb bus then the reverb bus is included in the 'solo' signal. And if other tracks (even non-soloed ones) are sending to that reverb bus as well, you'll hear their reverb as well. To clarify, when you solo a track that's sending to an effects bus, you'll hear the both the solo'd track AND the entire FX Bus it's sending to.
It would be nice if Logic was smart enough to mute all the other fx sends of non-solo'd tracks... But that's not how solo works in Logic (or in most old school analog mixers).

No pre-fader solo?

I'm using Logic 9.1.6, with system 10.6.8. I have a headphone mix that is routed via pre-fader sends out bus 3 & 4 to outputs 3 & 4, which go out of my audio interface into my headphone amp.
I used to be able to solo my faders or channel strips, and it wouldn't mute my pre-fader sends to headphones. It now mutes pre-fader headphone sends too. I've changed the settings on preferences/audio/general/Track-Mute Solo between Slow Response & Fast Response.

Holy schmoly! When did Logic start requiring "solo safe" on busses and aux sends in order to have true pre-fader solo on the aux busses? This drove me crazy!
For people who are searching for the answer to this, this is the method that fixed it for me.
1. Go to the environment. Find the Aux and Bus fader strips that you're using for your headphone mix.
2. Click on each fader strip's "solo" button while holding control, putting them in "solo safe" indicated by a diagonal red line through the button.
Get a beer. You win.
When did this system start? The previous method, where you didn't have to use "solo safe" worked just fine for me. Bleh.
Happy recording.

How do you get rid of 'empty' pre-roll time in logic pro 9?

how do you get rid of the pre-roll time in logic pro 9?
My project's start time is 8-bars before any material, or tempos, or anything...
Can't move the start time back to ")" (zero)    STUCK!! at -8
The song now has 20 seconds of dead air time in a pre-roll.
None of these worked or revealed anything...
-tried making a new copy of song
-looked into every track's file information looking for a spurious entry
-tried deleting the time/space

Hi
Check for any Track Automation nodes in the "preroll'.
CCT
Edit
You should note that generally negative (or zero) project start numbers should be avoided at all cost: there are many peculiar behaviour problems associated with them.

Pre-fader metering

How many of you guys make use of pre-fader metering? Is it recommended?
I noticed that as soon as I turned it on a lot of my channels clipped and that I actually had to sort that out internally with a lot of the AU instruments, like RMX.
Let me hear some of your thoughts on this?
Thanks.

and it shows clipping,
Clipping? What, you mean that some of the meters are red, rather than orange? That's not clipping, that's just to indicate you have high levels.
that equals distortion doesn't it?
No. You can't really clip in a 32-bit floating point DAW. The only place you can clip are at the outputs - for this reason, you must always come in under 0dBFS to print the final mix.
But inside the mixer, you can have very high signal levels. It's possible for instance, to take an audio channel, add +1500dB (yes, fifteen hundred dB), and then on the output channel, reduce the gain by 1500dB, and you will still have a good, undistorted signal.
This is the benefit of implementing mixers with floating point maths (as they pretty much all are, these days) rather than fixed point maths.
However, good practice says that your audio channel levels shouldn't be too high, use 24-bit audio, and avoid running everything into above 0dBFS levels for a number of reasons - this also helps keep your mix levels under control.

Pre-Fader Metering on Output

Hello all.
While pre-fader metering is working great on all the channels - there is no difference registering on the master output (Output 1+2) when I toggle PFM off and on. I am sending it 16 very hot signals and only the output fader can change the meter reading.
Any ideas
Paul
PS - I love having this on the transport as a button - that and low-latency mode!

Nope.
If you put a few channels of noise that feed into Outputs 1+2, set the output fader to -50 or so, and then toggle the Pre-Post metering button, can you get a different reading from it?
Paul

PRE FADER/POST FADER

Okay I set up a dry vocal track. I set up a PRE FADER SEND (yes it's green & I have it centered) to AUX BUS 1. On AUX BUS 1 I set up reverb. Now I solo the dry track and it should remain dry. Fine it doesn't it has reverb. I solo the aux track. Fine it's just reveb. Now I hit mute on dry track with reverb solo'd and I hear nothing. Shouldn't I be hearing the reverb alone since I set up the dry vocal track with a PRE FADER SEND or is this a case of Apple reinventing the wheel as a square again?

Tiki Edit wrote:
Okay I set up a dry vocal track. I set up a PRE FADER SEND (yes it's green & I have it centered) to AUX BUS 1. On AUX BUS 1 I set up reverb. Now I solo the dry track and it should remain dry.
No. It should not. why do you think it should? It is pre-fader, not pre-mute. It still sends to the reverb, and that reverb is not muted. To mute the reverb, you must mute the Aux it's on.
Fine it doesn't it has reverb. I solo the aux track. Fine it's just reveb. Now I hit mute on dry track with reverb solo'd and I hear nothing. Shouldn't I be hearing the reverb alone since I set up the dry vocal track with a PRE FADER SEND or is this a case of Apple reinventing the wheel as a square again?
Mute is post send. Only fader is pre send, so moving the fader won't affect the send level. Soloing a track will also solo any auxes that track sends to.

Mute pre-fade sends please

It would be nice for me if muting a track also muted the pre-fade send. I use pre-fade sends quite a bit for reverb, and it seems that in both LP7 and LP8 that muting doesn't work in his respect. I've never understood why it's left like this. Any clues?

Apple Certified Trainer wrote:
However, instead of muting via the Mute button, select the track (which selects all the regions on that track) and press M. That mutes the regions, not the track and there's no sound, hence no pre-send.
Well, you can use the mute button, just not the one on the channelstrip. Use the mute button on the track and make sure you have the preferences set to use the old cpu saving mute behaviour for track mutes.

Pre-fader TRIM in logic?

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