Sony DSR PD-170 Non-Drop Frame Footage

I recorded footage on my PD-170 in non-drop frame (NDR) and went to capture my footage into Final Cut Pro. I changed my sequence settings to NDR and I went to Batch Capture some clips and after each one it told me that my PD-170 was in drop-frame mode and that by trying to capture NDR footage off a camera set to drop-frame I was likely to get some timecode issues.
Anyone seen this before and/or know how to fix it? Thanks.

We get the same message with our PD170 (and also PD150) using drop frame footage. We have never had any time code issues by going ahead with the capture.

Similar Messages

Two camera footage: one drop frame, one non-drop frame

We recently were delivered a batch of tapes for a two camera project that we're doing the post work on. The timecode was jammed to synch the two cameras. Unfortuantely, one of the cameras seems to be drop and the other non-drop. As a result, the tape that is showing as non-drop stops every couple of minutes for a timecode break in order to synch up with the jammed timecode.
The reality is that there is no break in footage in the sense that this footage was recorded as a real-time 30 minute presentation, but because timecode is being jammed, and because the tape was being recorded in non-drop frame, Final Cut cannot capture this footage in its entirety.
My only thought would be to capture through S-video out and place the footage on a timeline, and force the sequence timecode with the appropriate timecode.
Has anyone run into this issue before and know a better solution? Or if the above solution will work?

Update: Rather than S-Video, we're setting the FCP capture setting to non-controllable device. That will give it higher quality, and so far, that is capturing just fine without the breaks.

Drop Frame vs. Non Drop Frame

I am a little confused about setting the option in FCP before capture for NDF/DF.
I read somewhere that all footage captured on DV is NDF, but I'm not sure if that is accurate. What if you don't know if something was shot in DF or NDF? Yikes!
I have some 24p footage and some 24p adv. that I will be importing into a 23.98 timeline (using Cinema Tools for the standard 24p footage). Later on I will be bringing in some "regular" miniDV footage (non-progressive, I guess interlaced) and whatever format I can get archival footage on - and I have NO IDEA whether that would be DF or NDF.
I was planning on capturing with the appropriate easy set-up options for each type of footage, but am wondering if the DF/NDF issue will cause a problem.
If I set the whole thing for NDF, and something was shot as DF, what might occur? Should I be scared since I have no idea which one I should go with?!
Feeling a little stupid but better I ask, I suppose -
thank you for any brilliant insights and/or advice.
(bringing in footage first on a Sony DSR-20, then switching to a DSR-11 when I the owner of the DSR-20 takes it back)
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD

Thank you for your responses.
I know a bit about what happens with drop frame or non-drop frame, and that essentially for NTSC at 29.97 I can choose either DF or NDF, but I'm using a 23.98 timeline, not sure if that makes the answer different. I'm trying to extend my understanding of DF/NDF to think about what will happen if something was shot in DF but captured in NDF or vice-versa, and whether working in a 23.98 timeline will mean I should pick one over the other.
Also I'm not clear about whether my choice to keep the timeline DF or NDF will affect my output choice.
The embarrassing thing is that I was the shooter on a lot of my footage (mostly a Panasonic DVX100a, plus 6 hours on a DVX100) - never remember setting DF or NDF. oops. Also as I mentioned I have no idea what the archival stuff will be at, but I think I can import that into whatever I have my timeline set at --
sorry I'm still foggy about the implications of choosing DF or NDF for my capture setting, and which one I should choose.
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD

Non Drop frame capture causing out of sync clip?

Hi, All,
I've been having trouble with sync issues on an hour long tape capture.
The material was captured from a Canon consumer DV cam (z80) using firewire into my powerbook g4. (The material on the dv tape was originally recorded in Video 8mm and transfered to the Canon via firewire from a modern Sony Digital 8 camera.)
The sync on the DV tape looks fine when I play it back through the Canon camera. So I'm guessing that I might be losing sync because the camera is dropping frames that don't want to be dropped. I tried to change the video capture settings to non drop frame (in the device control tab of FCP5's audio video settings preference window,) but as soon as I start the capture from the canon, the settings on my log capture window automatically revert back to drop frame. (I don't know this for a fact, but I do notice that the ":" in the timecode box turns back to ";" every time I start the capture.
Does this sound like it is, in fact, a drop frame problem? And if so, is there any hope of getting a canon consumer camcorder to capture at non drop frame rates?

Well, after trying most of the suggestions here, I did find a reasonably hassle free workaround to capturing the hour and fifteen minute footage of 8 bit 32 kHz video to FCP with minimal sync slippage over the length of the footage.
I finally gave up on capturing the material in FCP and instead hooked the canon z80 up to an old version of Toast Platinum 6 I had on my computer. Toast creates a raw quicktime movie file with the extension .dv. Toast then allows you to edit that quicktime file, add chapters, button pictures, etc. thereby making a new file to replace the raw QT it first created. After some experimentation, I discovered that the original raw QT file Toast creates can simply be dragged intact to the FCP browser window, where it becomes a clip with minimal sync problems. I would caution against trying to use the second improved QT file that Toast creates after you've edited your file, as this second QT movie seems less stable than the raw one it first creates.
A final caveat for Toast users. Make sure you set the preferences so that they don't DELETE the original file it creates. There are settings that will tell Toast to do just that either After a Day, After a Week, When You Close the Program or Never. I'd set that to Never, since it can be highly unpleasant to discover that your program has deleted the very file you were planning to work with.
Hope this is of some help.
Thanks to all who pitched in and offered suggestions. Your help has been invaluable!
I now mark this issue Solved. Or at least as Solved as I plan to get it!

DV NTSD drop-frame vs. non-drop-frame??

My impression has always been that DV NTSC is non-drop frame. I'm having to capture a 100 hours of DV tapes from a Sony WV-DR7 deck. FCP capture is giving me this warning:
"You are about to capture Non-Drop Frame media from a device currently detecting or configured for Drop Frame media. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships."
The Sony is all in Japanese, and the rough translation manual does not mention drop frame \ non-drop frame setting choices on the deck.
Would anyone have any suggestions or recommendations?
Ben

Sorry to be confusing~~~~
What I meant was, since I wasn't sure if the VTR you are using actually shows the timecode window, or just a timecode counter (the Sony DSR-11's display does not show the colon/semicolon difference in the display that is supered on the non-digital video outs), I thought the quickest way to assess what flavor of TC you had was to play the tape and use "Capture Now" to capture a few seconds. Then you can look in the bin, check the media start column and see if there are semi-colons or colons. This would be helpful particularly if FCP is balking at capturing from your logged marks.
The other thing I was talking about was a case where I had been given DVCam copies of camera masters, to use for a rough cut. Because these tapes were work prints, they used old DVCam tapes. One of the tapes had originally had DF material on it. When the tape op made the workprint, he started recording the new NDF material about 10 seconds into the tape, he therefore left 10 seconds of DF bars at the head of the reel (the old material). I put the tape in a DSR-11, fast wound up to picture, and started logging. When I was at the end of the reel, I hit rewind on the machine so it would rewind while I was clearing up spelling errors, etc. The machine backed all the way to head of the tape, into the DF area.
So when I hit batch capture, the machine reported back to FCP that it had a tape with the correct name loaded, but the time code was in the incorrect format - the message you received. It took a while to figure it out, but when I wound the tape forward, so that it was in the picture portion of the reel, the machine was then outputting the code that FCP was expecting. So by "parking" the deck in the picture portion of the tape, it would cue correctly from the logged point.
Hope this explains it. hope you have a simple solution, too.
Message was edited by: Meg The Dog to fix typo

"Capturing drop-frame media into a non-drop frame clip" error message

I've logged tapes from what will partly be a 3-camera multi-clip project, and have begun to batch capture.
Logged all but one tape some weeks ago, and captured one tape at the time.
Went to batch capture the balance, today. First tape capture went fine. On trying to capture the next tape in the batch I'm getting this message as FCP begins the process:
WARNING: You are about to capture drop-frame media to a non drop-frame clip. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships.
In analyzing the situation, the only reason I can think of for the error message is that some of the reels were logged on a DSR-11 that had been set to NON drop-frame, and for which I didn't have the remote control to change the setting.
I haven't run into this while capturing other clips, but those may have been captured via a different deck that does only drop-frame.
So, I'm looking at next steps:
1: Capture anyway and possibly regret that I did that.
(One person on another list reported the same problem, that he had ignored it without any obvious complications.)
2: Relog all the problem clips using my current deck, speeding up the process by using the "go to" window to drive the tape to the existing in and out points and then marking i/o's...
Or...
Suggestions?
Thanks,
Ted.

We've been seeing this stupid error message since v3 and it's never mattered in the slightest. It is always incorrect, anyway. The clips are always drop and the sequences are always drop. It's an FCP programming glitch/bug/screwup. Someday they may or may not fix the mechanism that triggers the warning.
bogiesan

Edit to tape confusing drop frame and non drop frame

This is a re-creation of a dead thread I found from June 6, 2006. This is the exact problem this other user was having.
OS 10.4.7
FCP 5.0.4
Dual G5 2.5
4.5 GB RAM
KONALH
Trying to edit to a Sony DVW-A500 (Digibeta) in Drop Frame mode.
Read Below for deets.
Problem: When working with a drop-frame sequence, and editing to tape, the program is edited to the tape with an offset of 3 seconds and 18 frames at the end of one hour.
Reproducible: Yes.
Steps to Reproduce:
1. Create a drop-frame sequence.
2. Edit the sequence in step 1.
3. Perform an edit to tape with the sequence edited in step 2.
What should happen: The sequence should be edited to tape at the time it occurs in the timeline.
What does happen: The sequence is edited to the tape 3 seconds and 18 frames after it should be!
Other observations: 3 seconds and 18 frames is exactly how much time is not in an hour of drop-frame time when compared to non-drop frame time. If you drop two (2) frames in every minute that does not end in zero, the math works out to 2*54=108 dropped frames in an hour. For the sake of simple mathematics, lets say there are 30 frames in a second. So 108/30= 3 with a remainder of 18, or 3 seconds and 18 frames.
It's as if FCP is getting confused about drop and non-drop timecode when the sequence is drop-frame. If anyone can offer any insights, confirmation, or resolutions for what I am seeing, it would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading!

So is the timeline a drop frame timeline, starting at 1:00:00:00?
And then is the DBeta tape prestriped (at least enough to do an assemble edit) to start the program at 01:00:00:00?
In other words, is the FCP timeline timecode matching the Dbeta tape timecode in a 1:1 relationship before you attempt to Edit to Tape?
Thinking further: FCP can't really confuse the two timecodes, it's dependent on the operator to tell it what to do. When it outputs it's not outputing timecode or looking even really looking for timecode. It's looking for your IN point in the Edit to Tape tool.
Message was edited by: loyed256

Digitizing Pre-Logged Clips: Drop Frame/Non-Drop Frame Discrepency

I have about 100hrs of DV NTSC footage that has been logged and now I need to capture it.
Everything seemed good to go:
• I ctrl+click the clip intended to capture
• Select 'batch capture' (it initializes)
• Settings are (apple setting) DV NTSC 48kHz
• I click okay and I get an error message that reads:
"WARNING: You are about to capture drop-frame media to a non-drop frame clip. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships."
Now, the setting noted above is set at 29.97 not 30.
I tried to see if there was anything I could select/deselect in the logged clips and came up dry.
I made duplicated the apple setting and changed the fps to 30. This yielded no error message but did on the second clip I tried.
Does anyone have any idea on how I should be troubleshooting this?
Due to the high volume of footage, and workflow schedule, I'd really rather not screw this up.
I turn to you my faithful FCP gurus.
Thanks.
Ian
p.s. I'm running FCP v.5.1.4

Just check your timecode accuracy before you get any further... i.e. does the timecode in the captured clip match the code that's on the tape. If so, you're good to go on... if not, I'd recapture using the proper TC... it's pretty easy if you do it from the tape in the Log and Capture window.
Jerry

What's the deal with Drop-Frame / Non-Drop-Frame Timecode?

I'm having trouble with 30fps Drop-Frame and 30fps Non-Drop-Frame timecode formats! I thought 29.97fps means 30fps Drop-Frame, but now I'm all confused.
I'm working with DSLR footage filmed with a frame rate of 29.97. For example, this one clip is listed as (in Project panel)
Media Start: 11:16:11:23
Media End: 11:22:42:22
Duration: 00:06:31:00
Frame Rate: 29.97fps
If I open this clip directly in Source Monitor, the timecode display (yellow, on lower left corner) says 11:16:11:23 at the beginning and 11:22:42:23 at the end. OK. But if I right-click on the timecode display, the pop-up indicates "Non-Drop-Frame"(!!). If I manually change that to "Drop-Frame", the start and end timecode would become 11:16:52:11 and 11:23:23:23, and the duration display (white, on lower right corner) becomes 6:31:12.
Now I create a new sequence of 1080p30, which has a 29.97fps time base. I right-click the yellow timecode display on the upper left corner of the Timeline, it says "30fps Drop-Frame". I drag the said clip onto the sequence. It occupies a length of 6:31:12. If I double-click the clip to open it in Source Monitor, now the Source Monitor timecode display indicates "Drop-Frame", and the start/end timecodes are 11:16:52:11 and 11:23:23:23. Huh??
Now I apply the "Timecode" effect on the clip. The timecode burn-in says 11:16:51:11 at the first frame and 11:23:23:22 at the last frame. I then go to the Effect Controls tab and look at the Timecode effect. It says
Format: SMPTE
Timecode Source: Media
Time Display: 30 Drop Frame
Just playing around, I switch "Timecode Source" to "Clip" - now the timecode burn-in goes from 00:00:00:00 to 00:06:31:11 - and then I switch it back to "Media". Now the Effect Controls tab says:
Format: SMPTE
Timecode Source: Media
Time Display: 30 Non-Drop Frame
And the timecode burn-in says 11:16:11:23 at the first frame and 11:22:42:22 at the last frame!
HUH??
Just for kickers, I switch "Timecode Source" to "Clip" again... Now "Time Display" stays on "30 Non-Drop Frame", and the timecode burn-in goes from 00:00:00:00 to 00:06:30:29.
What's the REAL length of this clip? Is it drop-frame or non-drop-frame? What are the REAL timecodes for it?
Also in a general sense, since I can change the "Time Display" field in the Timecode effect at any time, and change the Timecode display format of the Timeline at any time... How do I avoid creating mismatching timecodes??
Thanks in advance for any clarification!!

So obviously, only one of them could be "correct" in terms of reflecting what actually happened. The other one is slightly sped-up or slowed-down. You might say "oh that's a tiny difference, it doesn't matter".
Zooropa75, just for matter of clarification I want to make sure you understand that no matter which you use, it won't actually speed up or slow down your video. TC, wether it is non-drop or drop, is only a counting system. For that reason, it doesn't even matter which you use to reference edits, so long as everyone editing uses the same TC basis.
If you want actual time accurate TC, as was already mentioned, use drop-frame.
I'm going to kill two birds here. The "drag clip to new sequence button" action I was referring to in my earlier post is dragging your clip to the icon seen below. It should create a timeline using your videos format.
Also, remember I recommended looking in the manuel for "actual" time used? You can see below a snapshot I took from your cameras manuel. You're not shooting in whole numbers for anything unless you're using the 50hz system and shooting at 50p. That is the ONLY exception. ...and this is good for everyone to remember. Very few US digital cameras shoot frames per second in whole numbers. If it says you're shooting in 24p, 30p, 60p, etc. ad nauseum, you can bet your biscuits it's actually the multi-decimal NTCS counterparts like you see below And that should be your final answer. *chuckle*

Capturing non-drop-frame as drop-frame??

I have to capture a bunch of amateur tapes shot with various cameras. Ultimate destination is NTSC DV. I have a sense that if I capture the non-drop-frame in a standard NTSC DV setup that I might have some buggy problems. Or at least the batch capture is telling me so.
I've never come across this problem before. What should I do? I'm just trying to build a movie database for a CEO using all the stuff he's collected from various sources - wanting all the captured material to be easily editable in FCP.
Any help would be most appreciated,
Ben

Well, after trying most of the suggestions here, I did find a reasonably hassle free workaround to capturing the hour and fifteen minute footage of 8 bit 32 kHz video to FCP with minimal sync slippage over the length of the footage.
I finally gave up on capturing the material in FCP and instead hooked the canon z80 up to an old version of Toast Platinum 6 I had on my computer. Toast creates a raw quicktime movie file with the extension .dv. Toast then allows you to edit that quicktime file, add chapters, button pictures, etc. thereby making a new file to replace the raw QT it first created. After some experimentation, I discovered that the original raw QT file Toast creates can simply be dragged intact to the FCP browser window, where it becomes a clip with minimal sync problems. I would caution against trying to use the second improved QT file that Toast creates after you've edited your file, as this second QT movie seems less stable than the raw one it first creates.
A final caveat for Toast users. Make sure you set the preferences so that they don't DELETE the original file it creates. There are settings that will tell Toast to do just that either After a Day, After a Week, When You Close the Program or Never. I'd set that to Never, since it can be highly unpleasant to discover that your program has deleted the very file you were planning to work with.
Hope this is of some help.
Thanks to all who pitched in and offered suggestions. Your help has been invaluable!
I now mark this issue Solved. Or at least as Solved as I plan to get it!

Drop Frame being read as Non-Drop Frame

Hey,
I'm working in FCP HD 5.1.4 and our guys are shooting audio at drop frame, and video at drop frame, and yet when we import the media into FCP, the Video is in Drop frame, but the audio appears to be Non-drop so we're getting BAD sync (some clips 30 seconds, others up to a min.). We're using TOD T/C and it's really important that we convert it cuz we'll shoot 8 hr days, and the first few clips arn't that bad but after so many hours, the sync gets worse and worse.
We're using XDCAM Sony PDW-1500 deck for the video transfer and the audio is BWFs from an external Audio receiver, then it's backed up on lacie drives (prob using compressor) then we're syncing in FCP.
Any thoughts?
Fraser

FraserPost, according to Apple in the Late-breaking FCP news PDF on pg.4, Broadcast Wave Audio Files imported will always be interpreted with non-drop frame TC.
Highlight the clip in the bin, choose Modify Menu option and choose Timecode. You can then change it to drop frame in the options panel.
Then your material should synch up.
For future reference but still notable, if you import an aiff, mp3 or another type of audio file without TC, the file will create TC dictated by the Sequence preset setting. This I found out the hard way. One has to shut down FCP and start it up again for the change to take effect on material imported.
Macbook Pro 2.16G Intel Core Duo Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Drop-Frame vs. Non-Drop-Frame Capture question

Hi,
I'm using Final Cut Pro 5 capturing 16:9 anamorphic video and removing an advanced 24 frame pulldown from my Canon XL-2. This is for a documentary for which I have captured over 30 full tapes of footage. I've been logging in the clips FIRST, then going back and batch capturing everything afterwards.
My question is this: I have logged everything the same way with seemingly all the same settings. However, when I capture some tapes I get the warning that I'm capturing Non-Drop frame media to a Drop-Frame clip and it could cause problems in the future with relinking. Then some tapes don't give me that message at all. Is there something I'm not noticing about how I log some tapes but not others? Would it have to do with the presets I have Final Cut set to when I'm capturing a tape? I'm fairly positive I've always setup FCP to the proper capture settings before logging anything...but could something else be causing this? Thanks for your help.
-JD

The thing to watch out for, both in logging and in capturing, is when you log or capture multiple tapes with mixed NDF & DF timecode.
There are three or four things that can affect this:
FCP5 and later allow you to set the TC format of the capture preset, such that the Log & Capture window would default to NDF if you are working with NDF tapes.
Otherwise, Log & Capture will still auto-detect during playback when logging, but you have to be sure to play the tape some before logging the clip. If you capture multiple tapes using capture now, You could easily start recording before the time code format updates. This kind of error results in a clip whose in point is the correct "number", but the format is wrong.
During Batch Capture, the device control is not always able to change the time code format. I'm not sure about FCP6, but I am in the habit of grouping my clips in batches according to the TC format. You ma be seeing this alert because you are switching the TC format of the tapes in the batch capture, but device control is "stuck" in DF mode, for instance. This is not an issue during logging, only capture.
I think it may also be possible to override the clip's logged TC format at capture by unchecking "use logged clip settings".
Capturing clips with the wrong TC format can really mess up recapture later. The offset that happens as the format gets converted back increases as the starting hour of the timecode gets bigger.
So basically you can have clips that get logged wrong, and clips that were logged correctly, but captured with the wrong TC. It's easier to miss it when logging, since there's no alert message to pop up. But the other alert is there to tell you there is a mismatch somewhere, preventing you from making the second kind of error. Your only error may only be that you had both DF and NDF clips in the same batch.
There is a trick to get the TC format to switch to the non-default for batch capture - Open Log & Capture and play the tape until you see the TC format update. Now start the batch capture with Log & Capture still open - device control will stay in that TC format now. Otherwise, I think device control switches to the format of the first clip in the batch, but stays there until you cancel and start a new batch.
Hope this helps -
Max Average

Mixing Drop Frame and Non Drop Frame In One Timeline

We did a 7-camera multicam shoot of a rock concert over the weekend. Upon capturing we realized two of our camera operators were shooting Non Drop Frame mode while the remaining 5 were shooting drop frame. Can someone describe to me how I can eventually get all seven cameras into one timeline? I realize I might have to output/convert the non drop frame stuff. And since we're one the topic, I'd also like to ask (in case I find this out later) what I might do if we find a camera that shot 24P (29.97). Thanks in advance!
G5 DUAL QUAD & 2 X Power PC G4 (Dual 533) & 550 TiBook Mac OS X (10.2.x)

There is nothing different about the footage from the cameras...they all run at 29.97fps. The only difference is in the way the timecode NUMBERS are treated. Drop frame code simply loses 2 numbers (00 and 01) every minute except for every 10th minute. That's it. They all run at the same speed, so putting them all in the same timeline shouldn't cause any problems.
Trying to make a multiclip based on timecode will be a problem, however. You will have to find a common frame on all and use that.
Shane

Drop frame OR non-drop frame

I've never worked with NTSC before. I converted my PAL footage to NTSC m2v, then imported the files into DVDSP. The audio and video play fine. The project preferences are set to non-drop frame timecode.
Is this correct for an NTSC DVD?
Does it matter which time code I choose?

Short answer: it probably doesn't matter.
Some circumstances under which the TC format matters:
Adding subtitles or captioning to the DVD - the TC of your asset needs to match exactly the master from the which the subs or captioning were created. Same if you're importing a marker list from a text file.
In editing with FCP etc., anytime you are coordinating sequence TC with tape or other asset TC, you should try to keep them consistent.
Also NDF TC is helpful for 3:2 pulldown removal (converting 29.97 video back to 24p by removing the pulldown).
Otherwise you are probably fine. Since you have converted from PAL to NTSC in software, you wouldn't be able to match up captions or subs to the new TC whether you used DF or NDF anyway.
Hope this helps -
Max Average

Drop-frame media to a non-drop frame clip?

Hello,
Maybe it's not my night and I should just go to bed! In any event, upon batch capture I receive the following warning:
Warning: You are about to capture drop-frame media to a non-drop frame clip. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships.
All the clips were logged via a DSR-11 using drop-frame (all the clips, 13 in all, have a semi-colon). Nothing has changed on our set up, we are strictly DV. Searched and so an earlier thread some months back but no additional insights? Any clues?
Mike

hello mike,
it is possible you are the victim of deck settings.
some decks (including the DSR-11, i believe) have a menu setting that can force the deck to output DF or NDF regardless of what was recorded on the tape.
it is possible that the deck was set to do this when you logged (and it isn't now), or it is set to do this now (and it wasn't when you logged).
so ... first see if you can find this in the menu of the deck. it will be called something like "DF mode" or TC mode or somesuch. make sure its off (so that it gives you what is actually on the tape).
then capture.
if you haven't used these clips anywhere, you should be able to ignore any warnings and take what you get of the tape.
hope that helps.
R.

Sony DSR PD-170 Non-Drop Frame Footage

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