Amp-simulator guitar woes

Hey all,
I've been starting to try using the guitar amp simulator recently. I'm a piano guy, so I've been using my keyboard for a while before this to just record piano tunes and thus although I've been working with GarageBand for a while, I'm pretty much an electric guitar/amp newb.
Now, I've finally started to understand what most of the different controls on the amp simulator are supposed to do to the guitar. Unfortunately though, I can't play the guitar and I don't have an amp, so I'm stuck with GB software instruments + amp simulator.
So I've been trying to work with the amp sim to get a good electric guitar to play under my singing (which I haven't recorded yet) but it seems to be too gritty and dark. I don't mean it's just really distorted, it just has that gargly sound on most of the notes. (I know it's not due to clipping, I've been monitoring the levels.) I'm hoping to get something that would sound good in alternative rock; the gargly gritty thing sounds a bit too harsh for what I want.
Unfortunately, when I lower the pre-gain any more than I have (which I assumed would simply "clean up" the guitar a bit so it still had distortion but wouldn't sound quite as gargly) I seem to just lose fullness and end up with a really quiet normal-but-still-gritty-sounding guitar (the gargly effect doesn't seem to go away until I'm at just under 2 for pre-gain, but at that point it doesn't sound enough like rock. I'm at a loss of what to do here to fix this.
Here's my amp settings, currently:
Model: American Gain
Pre-gain: 4.8
Low: 5.4
Mid: 7.3
High: 7.0
Presence: 10.0 (I don't know what this does...)
Master: 8.2 (Don't know what this does either)
Output Level: -2.0 dB
I've tried the other amp models and they either sound too gritty or they don't sound like an electric rock guitar at all (for example, with american clean). They still clip when I increase the output level though -_-
Any ideas, tips, links, resources, or amp presets etc. that anyone can provide to help me get to understand what I'm doing with guitars and amps would be greatly appreciated.

First any Gain Amp model will be gritty, start with a clean amp and dial in gain. Amps work with two stages pre amp stage and power amp stage. Turning the pre gain up will overdrive the power stage causing distortion. Amps with high gain preamps will naturally have more crunch. As you turn up the pre you turn down the master, the output is the amount of master signal that gets sent to your track.
Presents is a boost in the upper mids to high frequencies.

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Amp Simulation + Logic + TDM/HD Hardware = Works?

Hello
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Does anyone have any idea's on this? Or can they direct me to another source for possible solution.
Many thanks.
PS. Sorry for the bad grammer, just got up.

When i posted this topic today and did another search plug-ins, and i found the Amplitube, i heard some of there sounds and im impressed.
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Ive tried using the Logic's Guitar Amp, now don't get me wrong its a brilliant plug-in, but I want a certain amp sound like a Fender/Mesa/Marshall, Ive spent hours modifying the settings but I can't achieve the sound I want.
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Amp Simulator causing huge delay

So Ive had my mac since Aug 2006. Its worked perfect, all the features worked fine on my simple 1GB of ram. I bought the New iLife 08 a few months ago and it worked fine and I enjoyed the new features. However as of a few weeks ago my computer is acting like it weird, it seems it cannot use the Amp simulator anymore. Why? it causes a HUGE delay in playing. When playing, it will start like it usually does but the delay keeps going and going until I am play a note and dont hear anything till 5-10 seconds later.
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Hello,
Accordin to the following link
http://zone.ni.com/reference/en-XX/help/371361G-01/lvtextmath/msfunc_eval/
Using the "eval" function in Mathscript node will slow down a lot the process.
Try to use mathematical functions directly rather intepreting the string.
kind regards,
Ion R.

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Cheers guys for the help, it went down a treat and now i practically have no hiss/noise on my tracks. Thanks very much for letting me get my music down as i want it, you were both very helpful!
Cheers!
Scott

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Thanks Eddie

I can elaborate - DIGIDESIGN.
That NAME carries a hefty price tag with far less everything than the competition. $700 for your most basic firewire Digi system. And then, you only get 32 tracks. The only thing that makes Digidesign worthwhile are the HD systems.
I mean, they have a decent compressor plugin that costs $500.
Logic Studio is $500 and comes with a better compressor plugin. With that money and a little bit more, I could drop another really nice preamp into my 500 series lunchbox. . .
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Message was edited by: LogicalAnalysis
Message was edited by: LogicalAnalysis

TS3698 When using amps no guitar sound feedback external sounds

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Are you sure that all other sounds are working?
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System sounds can be muted and controlled two different ways. The screen lock rotation can be controlled in the same manner as well.
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This support article from Apple explains how the side switch works.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4085

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Hi,
did you try an overdrive / distortion plugin with the guitar amp as clean amp behind it instead? The Guitar amp plugin simulates different types of preamps, some of which may produce an extensive hiss by intention. Also try to change the settings of the preamp gain and the master gain to get a better result.
Fox

Amp simulation and stompboxes

Are they available only for electric guitar or are there some suited (or that could be used) with an electric bass instead ?

all the new features that were added for electric guitar are available for bass too.
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What do you guys suggest for playing guitar thru my Macbook Air? I use guitar pro software to learn tabs but I would like to be able to play along thru the computer. thanks

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One thing about this library is that it pretty much forces you to do single horn lines since each patch is monophonic (like the real instrument). It does produce pretty nice results that way. I haven't tried upping the polyphony as I like the results this way.

Advice on Creating Pedal Steel Guitar Instrument

Hi, everyone.
I am looking for some advice on creating an authentic Pedal Steel Guitar software instrument. I have all 4 Jam Packs, so would have access to any existing Guitar software instrument. I've played with the Jazz Chorus Electric, Twangy Electric and Clean Electric instruments with varying degrees of success.
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Compression>None
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Chorus>Manual>Defaults
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Gary
Dual G5 2.5 GHz Dual Core, 2.5 GB RAM, 500 GB HDD Mac OS X (10.4.7) iLife 06, Final Cut Studio, Jam Packs 1 through 4

The problem with pedal steel is that the absolutely unique sound is created through a complex mixture of techniques.
The "steel" slide itself which is effectively a smooth pitch shift.
The volume pedal which gives you the swell effect .
Various other pedals and knee operated levers which change the tunings of the strings.
Even if you get the basic electric sound I'm not sure how you can program all those parameters into the sound.
I guess you could use "expression" in place of the volume control but the pitch shift would be virtually impossible to do as the pitch shift in GB is limited to such a small range. You have to be able to create a smooth slide over more than octave.
If you do find one let us know as I'd love to see how they did it
Cheers
Dick

What is the most useful vst/audio-unit for recording bass guitar?

Hey, I'm fairly new to logic and I've been searching for a program that I can use with a bass guitar and get some cool effects going, but I have no idea what they are called I mean something like absynth, but less crazy, more for just recording a standard bass line, with combinations of effects like absynth.
Sorry if i don't make sense!

I'm not entirely sure what you mean (Absynth applies some pretty extreme treatment to audio), but I'd suggest you'd want to use Logic's compressor and EQ for starters. Chorus, flanging or phasing can be useful, although they can muddy the sound, particularly if used in the context of a song arrangement, so careful usage is required.
Reverb and delay are not often applied to bass guitar, unless you're talking about solo work, in which case they may be very effective. There are other Logic plug-ins that will produce more extreme fx, like autofilter, ringshifter, tremelo etc.
And don't forget about the amp simulations and guitar pedal sims if you're on Logic 9 (try these first if you haven't already).
The best thing is to experiment

That big, wide guitar sound

Hey folks-
Bare with me - I'm looking for the best way to get that big, wide guitar sound out of Logic. Here's an example of what I'm trying to achieve:
http://www.bedrock-studios.com/smashing.mp3
I'm curious if anyone can point out any useful techniques for getting that big sound that doesnt grate on the ears. Do they use stereo widening - to what degree?? What kind of EQ? Whenever i record, i can hear every strum, but listening to this you almost loose the strum and it becomes this collage of sound that's really beautiful. Do they play multiple takes simultaneously? What kinds of pickup settings? Whats the secret?
Yes, I know getting a mastering technician would be the best thing to do, or go read some fancy books by so-and-so and that it takes "years and years" of learning, and yes, i know it's all up to my ears. But there has to be at least one or two tried-and-true settings for getting started with a big guitar sound. I'm doing this for fun, but i get discouraged when i cant even get template settings to sound nice.
What about the guitar itself? Any recommendations for excellent "rock-style" pickups or strings? I've got a fender strat going through a m-audio firewire solo on a G5.
Thanks for the help... go easy. I just want to have fun.
Cheers,
Chris
Dual 1.8 GHz Powermac G5 Mac OS X (10.4.6)

Chris,
I agree with a lot of what Brent has said. Let me add to it...
Although it's public record that Billy Corgan does layer his guitars, in the clip you posted the link to, the "main" guitar, or main riff guitar, doesn't sound doubled (or tripled, etc...) to me. It does sound like it has been "stereo-ized". That can be done on many ways, but one popular way is to record your guitar part, pan it hard left, then send it to a delay, with the delay set anywhere from 60 ms to 150 ms, 100% wet, and the output of that delay panned hard right (or visa versa).
I like to this same thing with small room reverbs. It's not as pronounced as it is with a delay, but offers a sonic alternative.
Another technique used a lot is to record one guitar, through multiple amps. The mic placements on the amps alone, when panned around, can provide a HUGE stereo image, even though it's one guitar. You also get the benefits of having the amps set to various amounts of gain, so you can get a wide range of tones, all at the same time. You could emulate this, by copying your guitar track to several other tracks, each with a different Guitar Amp Pro, set to different settings, on each track. Maybe go as far as nudging them around in time, just a smidge, or a add more room reverb to one, while the others are dryer, etc... experiment!
You could certainly just play the part twice, and pan each track left and right. And while that sounds really cool (and has been done to death), it doesn't provide the same "focus" as a single part, played or mixed in stereo.
And while I agree that you'll never get out of Guitar Amp Pro what you can from a decent tube amp, it shouldn't stop you from trying. And what Brent said about rolling off Highs (and lows) is good practice with guitar amp simulators. A guitar speaker isn't capable of reproducing frequencies up high (like at 10 or 12k). get rid of them... those frequencies are only contributing to giving the amp simulator have a "fizzy" sound.
And don't lose the Strat... just try to get a Les Paul (or other Humbucker driven guitar) to add to your arsenal.
And never forget, a large part of a guitars sound (or any instrument for that matter), comes from the player...

Don't know how to Record Electric guitar?

Ummmm, so in a few words....
what is the best way to record Just an Electic guitar over a beat I made? I
have a PreSonus Audio box, and a Condenser mic, too.... don't know if that
helps or I can do it with those. (USB btw:)
Thanks!
-Brandon

The most common method in rock n' roll is a Shure SM57 (cheap dynamic) an inch or so away from an amp grille, and let'er rip.
Or go direct into your interface "Hi-Z" input, and use amp simulation plugins for that "simulated amp" sound!
If you use a condenser on your amp, give it a foot or two of room from the amp to eliminate the harsh upper mids. Common placement in the '60's (Beatles, Pink Floyd etc).
If using a dynamic (Shure '57, etc), mess around with pointing it at the center of the amp speaker, or away from it, etc. Even Logic's Guitar amp plugin simulates the behavior with a choice of dynamic/condenser and center cone/side cone. Play with that and hear the difference...

Can we make the amp sim sound more "tubular"?

I play live instruments exclusively, and a rack-mounted mini + a MOTU 828 has replaced all the stage amps, pedals, preamps, etc. It's fantastic.
The one thing I'm not happy with is the guitar amp simulator's inability to re-create the valve amp (a.k.a. "Marshall Stack") sound.
The "American High Gain" sounds, to my ear, like a classic 1980s solid-state amp.
The "British High Gain" sounds to me like a classic 1970s... solid-state amp.
I don't want the flat-line "crunch" of solid state, I want the SCREAM of over-driven tubes!
In every other way, the signal processing capability of GarageBand is a dream. I like the stereo chorus effects, the reverb, the compressor, the gate, the EQ... It's just this one small thing I'm lacking that is the thorn in my side.
I can't afford a vintage Marshall Stack. I can probably afford a pretty good knock-off tube amp and a couple 4x12 cabinets, but I don't want to haul all that around to support one instrument.
Heck, I don't even want to mess with a RP200 or Guitar Pod. I shouldn't have to! If a $120 stomp-box can re-create an enjoyable illusion of tube distortion, the magnificent Mac mini should have no problem doing so as well.
Anybody have any luck getting a top-notch tube amp sound out of GarageBand? If so, would you care to share your settings? If not, are there good third-party patches and/or "Jam Pack" offerings which can get me there?

Golias wrote:
For cheapskates like me, are there any really great free (or reasonably cheap) amp-modeling plug-ins that anybody can recommend? I've experimented with a few now, and most of them don't sound that much better than the ones that come with GB.
Count me as a cheapskate guitarist as well! OK, while I'm not necessarily adverse to shelling out for the likes of AU versions of Amplitude, Guitar Rig, or the Line6 stuff, I'm definitely adverse to shelling out for it without being able to road-test it rather better the last demo versions of any AUs for these I've seen allow. It's a fair pile of money to drop on something that I'm not sure I love, might not be able to sell on easily, and could be "obsoleted" by an OS upgrade ....
So far, I've stuck with the stock GB amp sims, doing my best to tweak settings to my tastes. Even with my limited experimentation -- and abilities -- I think that the (relatively limted range of) amp simulation built in the GarageBand at least may be much more capable than it appears. I think the shipped presets are spread too generically thin to be very interesting of themselves. Clearly, Apple assumes that more serious guitarists will go off and purchase specialized AUs, and hasn't spent a lot of time getting serious gearheads in there to come up with more and better presets (or basic amp models). There is also a dearth of documentary info about how the models were designed to behave and how to get more out of them.
But what about all us cheapskate guitarists? Or at least those of us unwilling to part with so much cash for a 3rd-party digital amp model on what is, basically, a dare?
I really, really, really wish Apple -- or someone -- would set up a web site that facilitated a GB user community where people could upload and download user-made presets. (This would be useful not just for guitarists, but other presets as well.) Apple has always had a strong user community, and it seems to me like a forum like that would be a relatively cheap way of enhancing user experience and building user loyalty. The installed user base for GB must be enormous, so why this hasn't been done is beyond me.
Anyway, my stuck the info related to my (so far) most successful (in my mind ;)) GB amp sim tweak to my own web site: <http://www.carlaz.com/music/gb_presets.html>
Dubbed "El Sabado" it was aimed at a relatively modern Tony Iommi-ish tone -- which I won't claim it achieves but when I've posted some of my short demo clips to guitar-oriented forums, some listeners have been impressed that such a tone came out of the built-in GB amp simulators. (With some neck humbucker examples, some listeners also compared it to a Slash-like tone.) I'm sure other more knowledgeable than myself could improve on this or better it; and I tweaked it up in GB 2.x. I've only just been playing with GB '08 in recent weeks, so I haven't made any definite changes using the additional controls available in GB '08. The .pst file is downloadable, and there's a screenshot of the (GB 2.x) settings in case you can't use the .pst.
Obviously, the sound coming out of amp sims will depend on your indivdual guitar. The above one was designed around a LP-style twin-humbucker guitar. I've been working on a couple of bass amp sim tweaks, though my bass is an old Rick 4001, which starts off sounding a bit different from more common and more modern basses, so anything I can eventually post in the bass amp sim dept. might be a bit weird when used with, say, a Fender Jazz or Precision type bass ....

Caps (ladspa plugins collection for guitar players) doesn't work

Hi there
Yesterday I finally wanted to try out my new M-Audio Transit with jack and jack-rack and play the guitar a little using ladspa to make a fine distortion. I always preferred caps, because their sound fits my needs best. However, there is no sound coming out of my headphone, when I select an amp simulator (there are several ones of them in caps). The speaker simulators work fine as usual. I didn't try out the modulation plugins. SOOO, what is wrong here?!?! In the first test, I used 48000Hz as samplerate and there were dozens of xruns per second. Switching back to 44100 made it relatively stable, but still no sound.
Any idea?

Army wrote:
It works now, reverted it to default CFLAGS line and now caps works fine So the PKGBUILD should contain a
unset CFLAGS
in the build section and modify this line in the Makefile.
do'h! it's so obvious! that's actually the first thing to try. i also haven't thought about that. it seems that all these audio apps have their own flags. i'll change the PKGBUILD today.
redbit wrote:Btw: Do you know any good tutorial for the caps plugins? I'm a total newbie in playing the e-guitar and I can't get any sounds out of it which sound in any way similiar to a normal e-guitar sound.
there are several ways to use these plugins. try jack-rack or you can directly choose them in ardour or i think even in lmms.
with jack-rack: connect your midi input, etc, inside qjackctl with jack-rack, chose the plugins you need in jack-rack and then connect jack-rack to your sound output (PCM or so) or recording app. i use timemachine, but you can also use ardour. but as army said, try try try.
the realtime stuff: are you in the audio group? the limits.conf settings affect only members of the audio group.
the xruns: afaik it depends not directly on the cpu, but on ram and soundcard. 2gb ram should be sufficient, but if you have a totally cheap soundcard that might be a problem. though i used a sb live value soundcard with the emu10k1 chip for some time and i hadn't have any bigger problems, and that's a really cheap card. i don't know what chipsets they use for laptop mainboards. however, if you want to have good sound quality on a laptop you could buy an usb soundcard, but that might get very expensive.
their is no golden way or rule, try that for yourself.
vlad

Amp-simulator guitar woes

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