Another color management question

Hi folks,
Apologies for yet another color management question, but Im getting very confused and could do with some help. I use a Canon 10D and Canon 30D. Ive come to LightRoom from Pixmantec Raw Shooter.
As Ive gotten more serious about producing high quality images for both the web and as prints, I thought Id invest in the Colorvision Spyder2 calibration product. So my monitor is now calibrated (quite a difference from what I was seeing!) and I have a calibration profile applied.
My needs are pretty obvious I want my images to look the same wherever theyre viewed including exported files (such as JPEGs) whether this be on my monitor (in LightRoom, a web browser, Paint Shop Pro, whatever) and on a printer.
Perhaps Im getting confused because Im trying to compare what LightRoom does with what RawShooter does.
In RawShooter, when exporting from RAW to JPEG, I can specify the RGB Working Space Im using and then select my monitor profile. I think that what happens is that the export mechanism takes this profile into account and, low and behold, the JPEG looks fine when viewed in any web browser - the colours are exactly the same as in RawShooter. In Paint Shop Pro they look fine too unless I enable Color Management in which case (Im guessing) the monitor profile is, essentially, applied twice! But the upshot is I seem to get the results I want.
What I cant figure out is how I do this in LightRoom. I can make the same adjustments to the RAW image as I did in RawShooter, but there doesnt seem an option for me to select my profile on export to JPEG only the standard 3 color spaces. Anyway the result is a JPEG that looks somewhat different when viewed in a web browser, or Paint Shop Pro with Color Management turned off. However, if I turn Color Management on in Paint Shop Pro, then it looks fine. So Im assuming that my profile isnt accounted for when exporting JPEGs from LightRoom.
So any pointers or explanations would be really appreciated. I also acknowledge that this is my first foray into color management, and feel free to tell me to go and read some introductory article (link please!) and then come back with a sensible question if thats whats needed!
Thanks in advance.
- Pete

Lightroom color management.
a.) Monitor profile used: The profile set as the default in your operating system (e.g. Windows xp). (your monitor profile software usually does this when you calibrate/profile your monitor).
b.) Working space: ProPhotoRGB
c.) Export color space: You can choose one of the following sRGB; Adobe RGB or Pro Photo RGB.
There is no option (afaik) to change a.) or b.) the option you choose in c.) will affect how the exported image will be displayed in color managed applications or non-color managed applications.
Non-color managed applications are not able to display Adobe RGB or Pro Photo RGB correctly. I guess if you wish a consistent display of your images in color managed and non-color managed applications then the only common factor is sRGB and you should export your images in sRGB color space.
The benefits of the other expanded color spaces are in printing and you also would have to get this end of your color management correct. Printing profiles to match your printer and each paper being used etc.
Until you can get this all sorted out you will get better results from sRGB, this is also applicable when using most commercial printing services.

Similar Messages

  • Color Management Question

    I use LightRoom 2 and CS3.  All my photo enlargements are done at CostCo on a Noritsu 3111.  In the past before I started using LightRoom, I edited in CS, then saved the file to a memory stick, and took it to CostCo for printing.  I always got excellent, consistent results.
    With LightRoom. first I understand that the color space is ProPhoto, not AdobeRGB, and that there are two ways of getting an image printed from LightRoom:
                      1.  Similar to what I had done before in CS, I can EXPORT and create a jpg file, or
                      2.  I can use the PRINT module to created the jpg with print profiles enbedded.
    Working through Lightroom, shouldn't I be able to get consistent color by simply using the EXPORT feature without adding any profile, and letting CostCo handle the color?  This whole subject of color management has me a bit confused.
    Here's what I think I know:
         My monitor is calibrated by a Huey.  Therefore my on screen colors should reflect accurately in any color space selected.
         Printer profiles are needed to match a color space image to a particular printing paper.
         If no printer profile is provided, the printer manages the color.  This has always worked for me in the past, but I seem to be running into problems now, and can't seem to understand what's different, other than using ProPhoto, which is just a wider gamut space.
    Any suggestions on this would be appreciated.
    Mike

    Thank you both Pete and Jao,
    Both of your answers have helped me immensely and I'm now printing acceptable images again.  I have one further question in regards to your note, Jao, baout "stripping" the profiles.  I'm not quite clear what you mean by that.  I am quickly falling in love with LightRoom, and will probably wind up doing most of my work there, using it also to prepare printing files for CostCo's Noritsu printer.  I downloaded the 3111 profile and ran a print, and am happy with the result.  In Dry Creek's instructions on "Using Printer Profiles with Digital Labs", step #16 says to convert the image to the appropriate profile (Image, Mode, Convert to Profile).  I forgot to do this, but still got good results.  Is it a necessary step?  It says Noritsu does not read embedded profiles, so you must convert the image data.
    Thank you, guys, for making a confusing subject alot more understandable.
    Mike

  • Newbie color management question

    hi folks
    using cs4. just finished a cmyk job on a new press. colors on the final print job were pretty faithful to what i saw on my monitor when doing the design, with a few exceptions that i'd like to tweak if possible. i'm new to color management, so looking for some pointers.
    according to my research, the right thing to do is to request a colorsync or icm or icc profile from my press. i did...but my press was slightly confused and sent me a bunch of .icc files and i don't know which one to load. the press people are great people and it's a good press, but i got the feeling that they weren't asked this question a lot. so i ended up using u.s. web coated (swop) v2 as a profile, which is what they ultimately recommended.
    so if i can't get an icc profile from my press, the other approach according to my research is to wing it and adjust the color profile on my own so that what i see on my monitor matches the printed output. in other words, i take the printed output and hold it up to my screen and manually adjust the color profile settings. i believe this is done in photoshop under edit-->assign profile and/or edit-->color settings, and then sync the color management for all applications using the bridge. or maybe this can be done in indesign? i'm asking the question on this forum because of the great responses i've gotten here.
    i don't want to screw things up and i'm a newbie with this, so... any advice out there? my basic situation is that the colors were reasonably faithful but there was a very curious thing where a c=0,m=0,y=35,k=15 color looked very green on the printed page even though it was a mellow looking yellow on my monitor. i want to try to adjust that.
    thanks.........

    Do you have a colorimeter and monitor profiling software? That's the place to start any color managed workflow. You also need a reasonably good monitor that CAN be calibrated. If the monitor isn't accurately showing you the colors, then nothing you do is going to matter.
    Matching the monitor to the print is an old technique that works only when you have a closed loop where all work is output on the same press under the same conditions. The purpose of using device independent editing spaces, such as Adobe RGB, is that in theory any properly calibrated monitor will display the image the same, and you can convert to any known output space at the time of output.
    Terms like mellow looking yellow are pretty subjective, so I don't know what you were expecting, but I wouldn't expect 35y, 15k to be very bright, nor very yellow. While I wouldn't describe the color as green on my monitor, it certainly doesn't resemble a banana, and next to a brighter yellow one might call it greenish by comparison. It's really a light yellowish gray,I think.
    I'm putting up a comparison here to see what it looks like, but colors won't be accurate in a browser.

  • Basic color management questions

    Having difficult understanding some concepts in color management - would appreciate any guidance to further understand it.
    What is the difference in backgrounds between additive and subtractive process color systems?
    How is white formed differently in additive and subtractive process systems?
    How are the non-process colors like orange formed differently in the additive and subtractive process systems? What colors from each system forms an orange?
    Why is the difference in the process of color formation of major concern with the use of computers in the preparation of materials for 4-color process color printing?
    Why is the difference in the process of color formation of major concern with the use of computers in the preparation of materials for 4-color process color printing?

    Sarah,
    Deep subject, so this will only touch the surface.
    What is the difference in backgrounds between additive and subtractive process color systems?
    How is white formed differently in additive and subtractive process systems?
    RGB blends "light" to generate colors.  CMYK blends "inks".  Starting with RGB and light.....pure white blends high levels of red, green and blue wavelengths in approximate equal amounts, which we perceive as white.  In Photoshop parlance, using 8-bit, this translates to 255R, 255G, 255B.  When we see an object, we are actually seeing the light that reflects from that object, not the object itself.  So, a bright white object reflects most of the visible light spectrum and reaches our eye, which the brain interprets to be white.  A black object "absorbs" light so nothing is reflected to the eye.
    To print, you need inks on paper, not light.  If you were to use red, green and blue inks, you'd have a big problem printing colors like yellow.  So, they devised the subtractive color process (RGB is additive, ie, adding all three lights together gives you white).  They took the opposite colors of Red, green and blue, which are Cyan, Magenta and Yellow.  In theory, you should be able to create the same spectrum of colors with the CMY subtractive colors that you can with the RGB additive colors, but in practice, that is not the case, for at least two reasons.  The CMY inks are not pure and as intense as the RGB primaries, and second, you have to apply these inks to paper, which drastically limits dynamic range.  To deal with the ink purity problem, (and to give better type), they add Black to the CMY mix, for four inks....Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black.  To get white, you rely on the paper alone, without any ink.  In theory, pure black would be either 100C, 100M, 100Y, or it could be 100K (black), or it could be 100% each of CMYK.  But, these three do not give the same results, due to ink purity, ink limits,  paper, process, etc.
    How are the non-process colors like orange formed differently in the additive and subtractive process systems? What colors from each system forms an orange?
    Why is the difference in the process of color formation of major concern with the use of computers in the preparation of materials for 4-color process color printing?
    In the CMYK world, orange is a mixture of Yellow and Magenta inks, with more yellow than magenta.  For example, 52M, 94Y gives a fairly vibrant orange.  Again, hue, saturation and brightness are dictated by the mix percentages, paper, ink limits, ink purity, etc.  In the RGB world, this same color is defined as 255R, 143G, 33B (depending on the "flavor" (color spaces) of RGB and CMYK you are using.  There is a relationship between RGB and CMYK, and this example is no exception.  When red is maxed out at 255, cyan is the opposite, in this case zero.  In this orange color, Green is 143, near the middle of the range, and so is its opposite, Magenta, which is near the middle of its range, at 52.  Blue is 33, at the very low end of its range, and its opposite, Yellow, is near the top of its range at 94.  Since this is a bright color, there is no black ink used at all.  If it were a darker orange, there would probably be some black in as well.
    Some colors can be created in RGB that cannot be duplicated in CMYK.  The opposite is also usually true, that there are colors in CMYK that cannot be duplicated in RGB (depending on the color space you use).  If your intended output is a monitor, the internet, email, or a printer that needs "light" you would generally use RGB.  If the intent is to "print" the job, on a press, inkjet, laser, etc, then CMYK is generally used.  Even if you send an RGB file to your inkjet, the printer driver translates the RGB colors to CMYK in the background before output.  Most, if not all, printers use CMYK subtractive inks for printing,  These can generate a large portion of the printable spectrum.  Some printers add light cyan and light magenta inks, or even red, green, blue, orange, and other colors to help extend the color gamut of the printer so it can achieve colors that would be "out of gamut" using CMYK alone.
    Another difference is that CMYK is a four color process, unlike RGB, which is three color.  A given color has only ONE definition when defined in RGB, HSB, L*a*b*, or other 3 component color schemes.  With CMYK, many colors can be created using different mixes of CMYK, which adds complexity, but also offers opportunities and flexibility, especially on press.
    Like I said at the beginning, this is a very deep and complex subject, and this only touches on the basics.
    Lou

  • Accurate proof with inaccurate monitor? [color management question]

    At the risk of sounding really dumb, here goes:
    I have never had a true color managed workflow despite dabbling in it and even delving into custom profiling.
    I don't want to shut the windows in my upstairs office and be dependent on unnatural light sources. I'm content to design knowing that what's on my monitor is not accurate.
    But I do want to be able to print my own inkjet proofs and know that what I see on paper is at least 90% accurate to what I'll get off press. And I want to try my best to provide clients with PDF proofs that come as close as possible to press. (This last bit's probably a pipe dream given that the clients don't have calibrated monitors, but perhaps Acrobat 9's new Overprint Preview default settings will help somewhat?)
    Is this realistic? Everything I know about color management starts with monitor calibration and I'm reluctant to take that step for fear of working in a cave-like environment.
    Would love to hear thoughts from the community.

    I'm still using my Sony Artisan, and dreading the day it fails to calibrate, but I'm definitely in the minority now. Adobe Gamma is useless for LCDs, and no longer ships, but the modern hardwares solutions are all supposed to be compatible. I suspect you'll get good results with a good monitor.
    As far as being worthwhile, absolutely. My office uses North light and daylight balanced fluorescent lighting, so there isn't a harsh color change through the day. Things are probably most accurate at the time of day when the calibration was last done, but they are definitely better any time than they would be without it.
    Peter

  • Color management question on having separate profiles in one document

    I have a document with images in it that have attached printer profiles with different separations, I'd like to print without further conversion of these images since they are profiled to be printed with no color management, how do I go about this?
    Does Indesign see the attached profiles and ignore the document profile? Or Do I have to set a document profile with no UCR/GCR that will maintain CMYK values.
    Thank you

    >I'd like to print without further conversion of these images
    Profiles are only useful if there needs to be additional color conversions at output or exporta conversion to a new CMYK space (new press conditions) or conversion to RGB for monitor display or an RGB proofing device.
    You don't want or need additional CMYK to CMYK conversions so you don't need the embedded profiles. When the profiles are ignored, the ID document profile is assigned to the images (there's no conversion) and as long as you output with the destination as Document CMYK the image values will be output with no change.
    Ignoring the profiles can potentially change the ID preview of images separated with conflicting profiles (CMYK>RGB), but it sounds like you are simply separating for different black generations so you shouldn't see a preview change.

  • SRGB vs no Color Management question

    I have two workflows for Photoshop that produce the exact same results and I want to know which one to use, but most importantly why?
    WORKFLOW 1: NO COLOR MANAGEMENT
    1. Photoshop Color Settings is set to "Monitor Color" which tells the PSD to not use color management.
    2. I check with Proof Colors (View > Proof Colors), having Monitor RGB selected (View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB), and of course nothing changes.
    3. I Save for Web and nothing changes (If I select "convert to sRGB" in the Save for Web dialog the colors wash out so I NEVER check this).
    4. Export the image.
    WORKFLOW 2: sRGB
    1. Photoshop Color Settings is set to "North America General Purpose 2" which tells the PSD to use sRGB.
    2. I check with Proof Colors (View > Proof Colors), having Monitor RGB selected (View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB), and the colors change a good bit.
    3. I Save for Web and it matches what Proof Colors shows me (If I select "convert to sRGB" in the Save for Web dialog nothing changes).
    4. Export the image.
    Both of these yeild the exact same image. The technical difference is that the second image has sRGB embedded? From a workflow difference I perfer the first one since I never have to check if Proof Colors is selected, the image looks the same no mater what. In the second workflow I have to always check if Proof Colors is selected otherwise what I see in photoshop doesn't look the same as the exported image.
    PLEASE help me to understand, that while both of these workflows yeild the exact same image, why the second one is better because I feel like the first one is not.
    P.S. Majority of the work I do is for the screen (web or application UI) so I'm not to worried about print work but wouldn't mind any pointers in relation to this situation.

    It's about 1:30 AM in my part of the world I need to get some rest, so I'll have to be brief.
    I've never seen so many misconceptions crammed into a single post as you've managed to get in your last one. 
    I'll try to get at least the most glaring ones.
    eddit wrote:
    1. I do understand that of the millions on monitors there are none that match, and the exact reds, greens, and blues that I see on my screen differ from other screens (i have a number of computers in my home and am very aware of this).
    Good, but that's not the point. 
    eddit wrote:
    I also know that there is a huge gamma shift from PC to Mac as I use to be a PC users and am now on a Mac.
    Only if the Mac user is still living in the stone age.  Macs should be calibrated to gamma 2.2, just like a PeeCee.  The old gamma 1.8 standard is a relic left over from the day of Apple monochrome monitors and LaserWriter b&w printers.  Even Apple recommends 2.2.
    eddit wrote:
    why would I work with a psd that is color managed, if it will all just get dumped by the browser anyways?
    Because presumably you want to have a clue as to what your image looks like and what it might look like to others.
    This is totally independent from whether you embed a profile or not.  Different issue.
    eddit wrote:
    2. I'm not talking about EMBEDDING profiles into any of the images that I Save For Web.
    Neither am I.
    eddit wrote:
    3. I am far more interested in color consistency rather than color accuracy as G Ballard points out in his tutorials.
    The only way to achieve consistency is through a color managed workflow.  That's what Color Management is all about, consistency.
    eddit wrote:
    From what G Ballard says, in a web browser, Macs apply the monitor profile and Windows applies sRGB.
    Good grief!  That is so wrong or badly phrased that I feel bad even quoting it!   That statement is garbage/rubbish.
    Only the bloody Slowfari (Apple's Safari) throws monitor profile at untagged files, i.e. files with no embedded color profile.  No other browser does that.  Period.  If the file is tagged, Safari will honor the embedded profile.
    Firefox 3.9 (both Mac and Windows) correctly assumes sRGB for untagged files (files without an embedded color profile) with color management enabled in the guts of Firefox and/or even with color management disabled.
    All other browsers on this planet, Mac and Windoze, are not color managed and assume sRGB for all files, with or without an embedded profile.
    The reason the files look very similar to you is that you are dealing with the lowest common denominator (sRGB, where the s stands for sh¡t, as we know now), and probably your color monitor is pretty close to that common denominator.
    If you happened to have an expensive truly wide-gamut monitor, your untagged files created in your monitor profile as working space would look like cr@p to you.
    Get this through your head:  you cannot turn off color mangement in Photoshop, no matter what you do, the application won't let you.  You're just messing up with color management the way you work, you are not "turning it off" as you seem to think.

  • Yet another colour management question

    Hi folks,
    I've read several of the very detailed colour management posts/threads here already but haven't found the answer(s) I'm looking for. So I'm hoping that some of the experts might be able to spare me some time and input...
    I am running a Windows 7 (32bit) environment with a Dell u2711 Ultrasharp display attached. I let the monitor warm up for close on 30 minutes and ran an 'Easy' calibration with a Lacie eye-one device using the Gretag Macbeth 3.6 software. (I guess I could have used the 'Advanced' calibration option but thought I'd save myself some time and was always pleased with the results on my older Sony CRTs.)
    I'm running LR3.2 and CS4. Viewing RAW images in LR the skin tones are way too saturated, but when I export the images as sRGB JPEGs the results look very pleasing when viewed in Windows Photo Viewer (far less saturated). If I open the same image in IE, it looks identical to the way it looks in LR. (I don't have Firefox installed so haven't compared that). If I open the image in CS4 by default it looks the same as it does in Windows, but if I change the Proof Setup to Monitor RGB it matches what I am seeing in LR and IE.
    I'm guessing this is somehow related to the new wider gamut range that this monitor can display (compare to my previous CRTs). I read in one of Jao's posts that LR is always right and other non-managed apps will do weird things on high-end displays. IE is not colour managed so why would it display colours very similar to what I'm seeing in LR, when the standard Windows image viewer is displaying colour far less saturated (which seems to be the opposite to what others are experiencing)?
    I generally always export as sRBG jpeg as the images usually go online, but this set is going to a client who will most likely be taking them for printing as well as viewing on a PC.
    Looking forward to your input on this.
    Kind regards,
    Chris

    Hi again all,
    I've finally found some time yesterday to investigate this further and re-calibrate my monitor.
    I nuked the previously created ICC monitor profile (so that there was none applied) and set to work with my Lacie Blue Eye device and the Lacie Blue Eye Pro software package. I set my preferred settings to 6500K, Gamma 2.2, 120cd/m2 and put the monitor into 'Standard' colour preset. I ran a test on those settings and while the colour and gamma levels were close-ish, the Lum was in the mid-high 200s...way too bright. (No wonder I felt like I was getting a tan sitting in front of the monitor. LOL!) DeltaE scores were okay but not great... Time for the manual calibration.
    Set the monitor into 'Custom' colour preset and fired up the Lacie calibration software for the full calibration. Can't remember exactly how far the brightness and contrast controls had to come down, but from memory it was about 30 and 50 respectively. The RGB levels ended up in the high 80s each from memory. Ran the calibration, applied the newly created profile (double checked it was applied in Control Panel | Colour Management). Ran another test report with the Lacie software and got colour, gamma and lum results 0-1% from target, and average dE scores of 0.4, max dE of 0.7.
    RAW files in LR and PS CS4 appear the same, sRGB jpeg exports viewed in Windows Photo Viewer and Firefox appear the same, IE is still a bit out, but that's expected/known.
    I took the (exported jpeg) images to another computer with a cheapy (uncalibrated) LCD monitor and the results were perfectly fine when viewed in Windows Photo Viewer.
    Having greatly reduced the brightness of my monitor I should hopefully reduce the likelihood of having issues with prints coming back too dark. Of course I know I can get hold of the printer profiles from my lab and softproof the images in CS4 when it comes to that anyway.
    Thank you all for your input and feedback on this matter. Everything seems to be resolved now.
    Chris

  • Printing with HP B9180 and Photoshop Elements 8 and Color Management

     I've got a bit of confusion about certain settings in the printing process and I've posted a rather long discussion of my 'issues' and confusion.  I hope someone can give me some guidance here.  I've seen a lot of these issues addressed in many places but I can't seem to find an integrated response.  Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read and respond.
    Color Management Questions
    My problems started when I was getting pictures that were too dark from my HP 9180 printer after having gotten very nice prints for a long time.  I had obviously started to do something differently inadvertently.  The only thing I think that is different is that I got a new 23 inch monitor, which does produce much brighter on-screen images.  So, I started to do some research and know just enough about color management to be slightly confused and have some questions that I hope someone can give me some help with.
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    My printer is an HP Photosmart Pro B9180 Printer, where there are also a variety of settings possible.
    I’m running XP-Pro.
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    RIK,
    Some printers have long names, esp. HP printers, and PSE gets ":confused." In control panel>devices and printers, right click on the default printer, go to printer properties, and rename the default printer to something short, e.g. "Our Printer." That may fix it..

  • Color management in Illustrator CS6 and InDesign CS 6-settings & workflow questions.

    I've read the color management posts and the Adobe help file regarding the Pantone + libraries and the new differences between CS5 & 6. However I'm still a bit confused as to just what my settings should be, and a few posts offer different pieces of advice, so I'm looking for clarification. I don't need to work with legacy CS files, so I don't want to swap out the old Pantone libraries for the Plus ones. However I still have my old Pantone Solid, Coated and Uncoated swatchbooks and until I can afford the new Plus swatchbooks, I'll depend on those. I'm hoping the difference between Pantone 321U and Pantone+ 321 is not great.
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    2. In the View menu, should I select Overprint Preview to get a (more or less-I know the drill) closer monitor color to what will be printed.
    I don't want to fool around with trying to set the CMYK values as listed in Pantone Color Bridge CMYK EC (found on Scribed here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/33104/Pantoner-Color-BridgeTm-Cmyk-Ec ), and I'm not even sure of the point in doing so or what it would do for me.
    What I want is to depend on a swatch book, select the named swatch from the Pantone library, have all my settings set properly,  then place it in InDesign, then send the file to a digital printer and get as close an approximation to the swatch book selection as possible. I need monitor color settings to reflect the swatches as best possible.
    When I can afford it, should I opt for the Pantone+ Coated and Uncoated swatchbooks, or the Color Bridge? I'm usure of the difference, and if there are any Illustrator or InDesign settings that would need to be changed depending.
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    Let me try to help you further:
    1. In Illustrator's Swatch settings pallette, should the Spot Color Mode option be set to use:
    a. CMYK
    b. LAB
    c. Book Color (not sure if this refers to the pantone swatchbook)
    - I would use "c" - Book Color.  This is the file going to the printer which will use Spot Color on press.  For a copy of the file to be output by your Canon, use "a" - CMYK.
    2. In the View menu should Overprint Preview be checked, and why, and would it differ based on the settings for #1.
    - Only if the color was transparent ( which it isn't ) would overprint preview be of any use or you use a tint value of the Spot color and a black, but even then you may not be able to detect any change in the screen view.  I typically do not use any overprint preview and I do not rely on the monitor for any color deisions.  You could be different and that is OK.  Let me know if you are able to detect any deviates using overprint preview.
    I'm sorry for being a little short.  There is a lot of confusion about these issues and Adobe and Pantone are not making things any easier.
    The key is your Canon will not be able to print accurate Spot color without a RIP for the necessary color tables and conversions for that particular printer.  In your case, it will be necessary to build a CMYK file to print a somewhat  approximate representation of that specific Spot color.  Another frustrating part of this matrix is CMYK cannot match all Pantone Spot Colors.

  • Printing, Soft Proofing & Color Management in LR 1.2: Two Questions

    Printing, Soft Proofing, and Color Management in LR 1.2: Two Questions
    There are 2 common ways to set color management in Adobe CS2:
    1. use managed by printer setting or,
    2. use managed by Adobe CS2 program.
    I want to ask how Color Management for Adobe LR 1.2 differs from that in CS2?
    As is well known, Color Management by printer requires accurate printer profiles including specific model printer, types of ink and specific paper. It is clear that this seems to work well for LR 1.2 when using the Printer module.
    Now lets consider what happens one tries to use Color Management by Adobe LR 1.2. Again, as is well known, Color Management by printer must be turned off so that only one Color Management system is used. It has been my experience that LR 1.2 cant Color Manage my images correctly. Perhaps someone with more experience can state whether this is true or what I might be doing to invalidate LR 1.2 Color Management.
    Specifically, I cant use Soft Proofing to see how my images are changed on my monitor when I try to use the edit functions in LR 1.2. Martin Evening states in his text, The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom Book that it is not possible to display the results of the rendered choices (Perceptual or Relative) on the display monitor. While it is not clear in Evenings text if this applies to LR 1.2, my experience would suggest that it still applies to the 1.2 update even though the publication date of his book preceded this update.
    Can someone with specific knowledge of Adobe LR 1.2 confirm that Color Management and Soft Proofing with LR 1.2 hasnt been implemented at the present.
    The writer is a retired physicist with experience in laser physics and quantum optics.
    Thanks,
    Hersch Pilloff

    Hersch,
    since just like me, you're a physicist (I am just a little further from retirement ;) ) I'll explain a little further. computer screens (whether they are CRT or LCD) are based on emission (or transmission) of three colors of light in specific (but different for every screen) shades of red, green, and blue. This light stimulates the receptors in your eye which are sensitive to certain but different bands of red, green and blue as the display emits, making your brain think it sees a certain color instead of a mix of red green and blue. Printers however, produce color by modifying the reflection of the paper by absorbing light. Their color mixing operates completely differently than displays. When you throw all colors of ink on the paper, you get black (the mixing is said to be subtractive) instead of white as you get in displays (the mixing there is additive). The consequence of this is that in the absence of an infinite number of inks you cannot produce all the colors you can display on a monitor using a printer and vice versa. This can be easily seen if you compare a display's profile to a printer profile in a program such as Colorsync utility (on every mac) or
    Gamut vision. Typically printers cannot reproduce a very large region in the blue but most displays on the other hand cannot make saturated yellows and cyans.
    Here is a flattened XY diagram of a few color spaces and a typical printer profile to illustrate this. Most displays are close to sRGB, but some expensive ones are close to adobeRGB, making the possible difference between print and screen even worse.
    So, when the conversion to the printer's profile is made from your source file (which in Lightroom is in a variant of prophotoRGB), for a lot of colors, the color management routine in the computer software has to make an approximation (the choice of perceptual and relative colorimetric determine what sort of approximation is made). Soft proofing allows you to see the result of this approximation and to correct specific problems with it.

  • Another color question

    First, I am sorry of I should know this or if the topic has already been discussed but was not able to find my exact problem, so here it goes...
    I have a Mac, running Leopard and an HP 9180.
    OK, when going to Print settings in LR, I can easily configure for vendor matching colors and in the quality/paper dialog, select App manages color. Of course, I then tell lightroom to use correct paper profile and Not let Printer manage color in the print module.
    So far so good.
    But when I then choose the Print button, just look at the settings for curiosity right before I print, Color Synch is on and everything grayed out. Shoudlnt it still be vendor matching at this point?
    It is my understanding that when using the paper icc profiles I should turn color management off on the printer. and I do, in the print settings button. But even if I save it (the print settings), and hit the print button it reverts back to color synch.
    Not sure this a LR issue cause it does it that way in PS, too.
    Am I crazy, or just stupid cause I am doing it wrong:)
    Please help smart people.

    No it is just silly. Colorsync interferes a lot and does not seem to have sticky settings. It should not matter for your print though, although there can be some issues because of this.

  • Confused about Color Management in CS5 (Photos appearing differently in all other programs)

    I recently noticed this and it's been driving me crazy; when I view photos in Photoshop CS5 they appear significantly lighter/more washed out than when viewed in other programs like Zoombrowser, Digital Photo Professional or just in a regular Windows folder using Filmstrip mode (Windows XP).  When opening the same photo in both CS5 and Zoombrowser and switching back and forth between the two windows the difference is very apparent...for example, one of the photos I compared was of a person in a black shirt -- in CS5 (lighter/washed out) the folds in the shirt were very obvious, but in Zoombrowser (darker, more contrast/saturation) the folds were nearly invisible and it looked like just solid black.  Now, after messing around with the settings in both Photoshop and in Zoombrowser I've found a few ways to get the photos to look the same in the two programs; one way gives them both the lighter/more washed out appearance and another way gives them both the darker appearance with more contrast and saturation.  My problem is that I'm not sure which view is accurate.
    I use a NEC MultiSync LCD1990SXi monitor with SpectraView II calibration software and calibrate it every 2 weeks using these calibration settings (screenshot): http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8826/settingsx.jpg
    In the SpectraView II Software under Preferences there's an option that says "Set as Windows Color Management System Monitor Profile - Automatically selects and associates the generated ICC monitor profile with the Color Management System (CMS)."  This option is checked.  Also, when I open the Windows' Color Management window there's only one option displayed, which is "LCD1990SXi #######" (the ####### represents my monitor's serial number).
    I assume the above settings are all correct so far, but I'm not sure about the rest.
    Here are my current default Color Settings in CS5 (screenshot): http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/666/photoshopcolorsettings.jpg
    Changing these settings around doesn't seem to make the photo appear much different.  However, when I go to Edit -> Assign Profile, then click off of "Working RGB: sRGB IEC61966-2.1" and instead click Profile and select "LCD1990SXi ####### 2011-06-21 18-30 D65 2.20" from the drop-down menu, the picture becomes darker with more contrast and saturation and matches the picture in Zoombrowser.  Also, if I select "Adobe RGB (1998)" from the drop-down menu it's very similar in terms of increased darkness and contrast but the saturation is higher than with the LCD1990SXi setting.  Another way I've found to make the image equally dark with increased contrast and saturation is to go to View -> Proof Setup -> Custom and then click the drop-down menu next to "Device to Simulate" and select "LCD1990SXi ####### 2011-06-21 18-30 D65 2.20" again.
    Alternatively, to make both images equally light and washed out I can go to Zoombrowser -> Tools -> Preferences and check the box next to "Color Management: Adjust colors of images using monitor profile."  This makes the image in Zoombrowser appear just like it does in CS5 by default.
    Like I said, I'm confused as to which setting is the accurate one (I'm new to Color Management in general so I apologize for my ignorance on the subject).
    It would seem that assigning the LCD1990SXi profile in CS5 would be the correct choice in order to match the monitor calibration given the name of the profile but the "Adjust colors of images using monitor profile" option in Zoombrowser sounds like it would do the same thing as well.  Also, I've read that Photoshop is a color managed software whereas Zoombrowser and Windows Picture and Fax Viewer are not which makes me think that maybe the lighter/washed out version seen in Photoshop is correct.  So which version (light or dark) is the accurate one that I should use to view and edit my photos?  Thanks in advance for any help or info.

    Sorry for the late reply;
    But before we go there or make any assumptions, it's important for
    you to determine whether you're seeing consistent color in your
    color-managed applications and only inconsistent color in those that are
    not color-managed.  For that you'll need to do a little research to see
    if the applications in which you're seeing darker colors have
    color-management capability (and whether it is enabled).
    I opened the same picture in 7 different applications and found that the 6 of the 7 displayed the photo equally dark with equally high contrast when compared to the 7th application (CS5).  The other 6 applications were Zoombrowser EX, Digital Photo Professional, Windows Picture and Fax Viewer, Quicktime PictureViewer, Microsoft Office Picture Manager and Firefox.
    However, at least two of these programs offer color management preferences and, when used, display the photo (from what I can tell) exactly the same as Photoshop CS5's default settings.  The two programs are two Canon programs: Zoombrowser EX and Digital Photo Professional.  Here's the setting that needs to be selected in Zoombrowser in order to match up with CS5 (circled in red):
    And here's the setting in Digital Photo Professional that needs to be selected in order to match up with CS5 (again, circled in red):
    *Note: When the option above "Monitor Profile" is selected ("Use the OS settings") the image is displayed exactly the same as when the monitor profile is selected.  It's only when sRGB is selected that it goes back to the default darker, more contrasty version.
    So with the red-circled options selected, all three programs (CS5, ZB, DPP) display the images the same way; lighter and more washed out.  What I'm still having trouble understanding is if that ligher, more washed out display is the accurate one or not...I've read several tutorials for all three programs which only make things more confusing.  One of the tutorials says to always use sRGB if you want accurate results and *never* to use Monitor Profile and another says that, if you're using a calibrated monitor, you should always select Monitor Profile under the color management settings...so I'm still lost, unfortunately.
    What I also don't understand is why, when the monitor profile is selected in CS5, the image is displayed in the dark and contrasty way that the other programs display it as by default but when the monitor profile is selected in Digitial Photo Professional it displays it in the lighter, more washed out way that CS5 displays it using CS5's default settings (sRGB).  Why would selecting the monitor profile in DPP display the photo the same way as when sRGB is selected in Photoshop?  And vice versa...why would selecting the monitor profile in Photoshop display the photo the same way as when sRGB is selected in DPP?
    I feel like I'm missing something obvious here...which I probably am.  Again, I'm very new to this stuff so pardon my ignorance on the topic.
    By the way, I find that the way that the non-color managed programs (Windows Picture and Fax Viewer et al.) display the photos is more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than the duller, more washed out display that CS5 gives the photos, but ultimately what I want to see in these programs (especially PS5 where I'll be doing the editing) is the accurate representation of the actual photo itself...i.e. what it's supposed to look like and not a darker (or lighter) variant of it.
    So just to reiterate my questions:
    Why does selecting Monitor Profile under the color management settings in DPP give the same display results as the default sRGB profile in CS5 and vice versa?  (CS5 with monitor profile selected having the same display results as DPP with the sRGB profile selected)
    When using CS5 with it's default color management settings (sRGB), using DPP with the Monitor Profile selected, and using Zoombrowser EX with "Adjust color of images using monitor profile" selected this results in all three programs displaying the same lighter, washed-out images...is this lighter, more washed-out display of the images shown in these three programs the accurate one?
    I noticed when opening an image in Firefox it had the same darker, contrasty look as the other non-color managed applications had.  Assuming that the CS5 default settings are accurate, does this mean that if I edit a photo in CS5, save it, and upload it to the internet that other people who are viewing that image online will see it differently than how it's supposed to look (i.e. in a non-color-managed way?)  If so, this would seem to indicate that they'd see a less-than-flattering version of the photo since if their browser naturally displays images as darker and more contrasty and I added more darkness and contrast to the image in CS5, they'd be seeing a version of the photo that's far too dark and probably wouldn't look very good.  Is this something I have to worry about as well?
    I apologize for the lengthy post; I do tend to be a bit OCD about these things...it's a habit I picked up once I realized I'd been improperly editing photos on an  incorrectly calibrated monitor for years and all that time and effort had been spent editing photos in a certain way that looked good on my incorrectly calibrated monitor but looked like crap on everyone else's screen, so the length and detail of this post comes from a desire to not repeat similar mistakes by editing photos the wrong way all over again.  Again, thanks in advance for all the help, it's greatly appreciated!

  • Photoshop CS5 Color Management

    My question has a complicated back story, but here is where I'm at.  I'm still a newby when it comes to color management.  I'm running Photoshop CS5, Lightroom 3.3, Windows 7 64-bit, Dell Studio XPS desktop, and a new Dell U2311H monitor.  I really struggled several months ago trying to learn color management and Photoshop printing work flow, and may have made an error during that process that created my situation.  When I attach a new monitor (or different monitor), all of my images in Bridge, Photoshop, and Lightroom display with a strong pink/magenta cast.  Images displayed by applications that are not color managed look normal.  Once I calibrate the new/different monitor (with Spyder2Express), and reboot, the color managed images display normally.  If I go to the Control Panel, and assign another profile (such as sRGB IEC61966-2.1) as the default profile for the monitor, all images continue to display normally.  If I go to the Control Panel, and disassociate ALL profiles from the monitor, the images displayed by Bridge, Photoshop and Lightroom again display with a strong pink/magenta cast.
    If no profile has been assigned to the monitor on which Photoshop is going to display an image, what does Photoshop do that might result in a pink/magenta image?  Might I have a corrupted profile somewhere, or might I have miscoded something in Color Management that is causing the condition?  If I need to provide some additiional info, please let me know what info is needed.
    Thanks for any assistance..

    Andrew, thanks so much for taking the time to respond.  I believe I found
    and corrected my problem last night.  When I attempted to do my own printing
    from Photoshop last summer, I experimented a lot as I tried to figure out
    the work flow.  I discovered last night that I had apparently introduced an
    error into the Monitor Color settings under Color Settings.  The RBG Work
    Space under Monitor Color was set to "Monitor RBG - xxxxx", where xxxxx was
    the profile for the Epson paper I was experimenting with last summer!  I
    suspect that Protoshop was using that profile when I didn't provide any
    other profile for the display.  I changed that setting to "Monitor RBG -
    sRBG", and my problem (the strong magenta casts when displaying images
    without profiling the monitor) is gone.
    I have been using the Spyder2Express for the past couple of years, and
    usually work with a monitor I have previously calibrated with the Spyder.
    This magenta problem only showed up when I switched to a new monitor, and
    displayed images before running the first calibration.  I wanted to resolve
    the magenta problem, however, to determine whether it might be connected to
    two other problems I have involving color management.  The first was my
    attempt last summer to print on a "hand me down" Epson 2200 printer.  I
    finally got the work flow figured out, but was never able to eliminate a
    slight magenta cast from some of my prints.  I tried printing from three
    computers, using two operating systems, downloaded the 2200 driver and paper
    profiles numerous times, printed on two different Epson papers, printed test
    prints of the same image on two other printers (without the slight magenta
    cast).  I've given up on the 2200 for now!
    My latest concern, which really prompted my renewed interest in color
    management, is my latest monitor calibration.  I just purchased a Dell
    U2311H, and calibrated it with the Spyder2Express.  At the end of the
    calibration/profiling process, the Spyder provides a before/after view.
    With other monitors, I've always felt that the calibration/profiling process
    improved the test image.  With the Dell U2311H, however, it appears to my
    eyes that the "before" image looks super, while the "after" image appears to
    have a yellowish, or yellowish-green, cast, and the after image is also
    "lighter", giving the image a bit of a "washed out" look.
    Any suggestions on what I might try next?
    Thanks again for your help, Andrew.  By the way, I read the two articles you
    sent links for.  I especially enjoyed the article on matching display and
    prints.  I'll keep rereading that one until it all soaks in!
    Mike
    www.mikelandwehr.smugmug.com

  • Color management detective needed!

    I need help with some color management issues I'm having.
    I've noticed that RAW images imported into Aperture (both 1.0.1 and 1.1) look very different than those imported into PS2 via ACR. I've been told that this is simply a result of the different conversion algorithims each program uses.
    However, since I don't see a lot of discussion about that here I began to wonder if the differences I see between PS2 and Aperture are unusual. Also, I've noticed that when I export a RAW file from Aperture or PS2 as a JPEG, the colors of the resulting files look slightly different than they did before export (no adjustments were made in either program). Finally, when I upload the exported JPEGs to a website, the colors change once again!
    This is very frustrating, because I spend a lot of time adjusting the image and finessing the colors... only to see it significantly altered when I put it on the web. I'd like to better understand what's happening here and have more control over the process.
    So I've created a website with various examples of what I'm talking about. I imported the same RAW file into Aperture and PS2 without adjustments. Then I used OS X's Grab application to take a screen shot of how the image appears in each program. Then I exported the image as a JPEG from both PS2 and Aperture, using Adobe RGB as the embedded profile in both cases. (Note: my monitor profile is a custom profile created by EyeOne) Then I uploaded the JPEGs to a website I often display photos on, and then took a screen shot of how both the Aperture-exported and PS2-exported images appear on the web.
    Please look at http://web.mac.com/chriskresser/iWeb/Site/Last%20Roll.html
    So, my questions are:
    1. Why does the color vary so dramatically between Aperture and PS2? Is this normal, i.e. do you experience the same thing? Is there something I can do about it?
    2. Why do the exported JPEGs look different than their RAW master's? Again, is this normal and is there anything I can do about it?
    3. Why do the JPEGs uploaded to the web look different than the JPEGs opened in Preview or PS2?
    I've tried to standardize my color workspaces as much as possible, but I'm not sure I've done it correctly. In Aperture, onscreen proofing is off and I'm just using the default colorspace (which I understand is a wide-gamut RGB?). In PS2 I am using Adobe RGB as the working colorspace. My monitor profile is the custom calibrated Eye-One profile.
    I really appreciate any help you can offer. I'm pulling my hair out trying to get this straight.
    Thanks,
    Chris

    Thanks to everyone for helping me figure this out.
    Let me make sure I understand. In Aperture, when I go to export a JPEG for web use or printing from another application with my home inkjet I select sRGB as the color space.
    In PS2, I use Adobe RGB as my working color space, but when I save a JPEG for the web, I change the profile to sRGB before exporting. Do I use the "Edit>Convert to profile..." command for this? Or should I be using sRGB as my working color space in PS2 since most of my output is for the web and home inkjet? (There are occasionally times I send files to a printer for output, though).
    The Aperture RAW and PS2 RAW look significantly different on my monitor too, not just on the web. I'm using the default ACR settings - do you think they need to be customized for my camera? I see what you are saying... the ACR RAW does look much brighter than the Aperture version and kind of washed out. Not sure how to fix that though...

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