Apple mail can send through gmail, but thunderbird cannot

I have apple mail setup and working both with a POP3 account and gmail. I installed Thunderbird. It works fine with POP3 both send and receive. Gmail not so good. I can receive emails but not send. I setup outgoing smtp as: smtp.gmail.com; tried ports 25, 465, and 587; authentication method is normal password; connection security is SSL/TLS.
This can't be a network issue if apple mail works right? I did notice apple mail is set to default (25, 465, 587) and I am guessing it will try all three.
I followed the troubleshooting page, I cannot telnet to port 25 but I get responses from 465 (connection refused by smtp.gmail.com) and 587 (appears to log in or something).
So, what is wrong?
my system:
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0
Application Build ID 20140131124303

Do you get any detailed error message information?
Google's online help page ([https://support.google.com/mail/troubleshooter/1668960]) lists these settings for the outgoing mail server:
Server: smtp.gmail.com
Use Authentication: Yes
Port for TLS/STARTTLS: 587 ''(I think this is preferred)''
Port for SSL: 465
For your account name (user name) you need to include the @gmail.com part (this various from service to service).

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