Beta Silicon Image 3132 eSATA driver

Has anyone tried the beta Sil 3132 eSATA driver on Snow Leopard yet?
http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3
This has been the one thing holding me back from upgrading because I require use of an eSATA drive for my work. I'm not sure if I want to trust a beta driver with important data, so I'm looking for some first hand reports of the driver quality.
Any info would be appreciated.

I was having kernel panics whenever I tried to eject my Meritline (Silicon Image) Sil3132 dual port ExpressCard in OS X 10.5.11 "Leopard" which I tried a couple of different drivers but couldn't eliminate these CRASHES... Very disappointing.
When I upgraded my OS to OS 10.6.2 "Snow Leopard" Apple's installer removed my Sil3132 drivers so I did some "recon" on Google and found the newly released "SiI 3132 Mac OS X 10.6 & 10.6.1 BASE (non-RAID) BETA" v1.1.11 driver here: http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/SiI31321.1.11u_Sil_PkgBETA.zip
Installed it, restarted and EVERYTHING WORKS!!! The key to removing the ExpressCard is to follow these simple steps:
1. Eject the hard drives connected via the ExpressCard from OS X
2. Power Off card from the Sil3132 menu in the top menu bar
3. Remove card
What is REALLY cool is the VERY inexpensive (a.k.a. CHEAP) RAID 10 configuration I created using two SimpleTech Duo Pro Drive eSATA / USB enclosures I bought a while back off DealMac.com. Each of these enclosures has its own HARDWARE RAID controller that EACH enclosure connects TWO Western Digital drives internally in either a RAID 0 ("stripe" for SPEED) or RAID 1 ("mirror" for REDUNDANCY) configuration. I set them up for RAID 0 for speed then created a RAID 1 ("mirror") of these two RAID 0 enclosures for a LIGHTENING quick 4-drive RAID 0+1... Advantages of both RAID 0 & 1, faster than RAID 5 and for me CHEAP since I already had 3 identical WD drives lying around from Mac Pro "pulls" and got a brand new 4th drove from CraigsList for $40!
I "tested" it by writing my 24Gb Parallels 5.0 "WinXP Pro SP3.pvm" file and it worked perfectly. Now I'll use this RAID for a FAST SuperDuper or Time Machine backups... HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!

Similar Messages

  • Silicon Image 3132 BIOS update

    Hi all
    I have a K8N Diamond mobo (latest BIOS) and want to update the BIOS of the Silicon Image 3132 SATA/RAID controller. This is in the vain attempt it will solve my Plextor 716SA problems.
    I have downloaded the latest BIOS from the Silicon Image website but dont hpw to use it.
    Can anyone give me a noobs guide to Silicon Image BIOS flashing?
    cheers guys

    It 's possible to include/replace the SIL 3132 pci rom in the MSI Diamond bios with the
    newest one from here :
    http://www.siliconimage.com/support/downloadresults.aspx?pid=32&bios=1&drivers=0&sataraid=0&
    2'nd download and the 7223.bin in that archive .
    Current MSI bios 1.7 for diamond has the 7218 SIL embedded bios version .

  • How to retrieve data from Silicon Image striped disks on NVRAID?

    Hello,
    I used to have MSI K8N Diamond motherboard and had to claim it. They returned to
    me MSI K8N SLI Platinum saying they couldn't get K8n Diamond anymore. However, K8N SLI Platinum doesn't have a Silicon Image 3132 RAID Controller I had used for my striped disks, so I'm trying to use NVRAID. NVRAID config says RAID status is OK (healthy),
    but I cannot see any data on the RAID disk in Windows XP (it says the disk is not formatted). Can anybody help me with this problem? If the two RAIDs (Silicon X NVRAID) use different formats for writing data onto disks, is there any utility I could use to retreive my unavailable data from the disks, that used to be in Silicon Image RIAD?
    Thank you very much for your time.

    This is the problem with 2 threads that don't get merged, someone needs to merge these. 
    https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=100574.0
    Since this seems to be the more popular of the 2 I will repost below what I said in the other thread.  Personally I would try the destriper before attempting what Hans suggest as it is destuctive(not saying it won't work just saying it will write metadata to the drives, and any writing at this point can have bad consequences). 
    Quote
    So the NVRAID see the 2 drives as a striped set?  This is suprising.  You could try to run a data recovery tool like getdataback and see if it sees anything on this new NVRAID array.  But other then that your only chance to recover without using the above suggestion(get access to another SiImage which is probably the easiest)
    is try a software destriper.  Here is an example: http://www.runtime.org/raid.htm
    The destripers are only as good as their authors write them, they have to know where for example where SiImage puts the metadata, it sounds like this software will try all combinations it knows(non-destructive),but can possibly recover data in your situation.  You may even have to use a data recovery tool after the destriping depending on where you are at now.
    Whatever you do, don't go configuring anything as any writing to the disk could make data hard if not impossible to get back.
    I think it's easier to get another controller but in theory a de-striper will do it.  Good luck I'm curious to see how things work out. 

  • Diamond Plus- Silicon Image controller set up single SATA 2 non raid "HELP"

     Could somebody please tell me what drivers exactly do you have to load for Windows install off of the floppy? I loaded the silcon image 32 drivers at the install but the boot into windows takes a long time ! In bios SATA 1 SATA 2  are enabled -non raid for Silicon Image controller. Is their any kind of special procedure or trick for  for useing the the controller non raid mode? Just added another HDD to my system formatted first with WD Lifeguard Tools and  unhooked my othet drives and 1 of my dvd burners but for some reason It took like 2hrs 20 min too load windows when I specified additional drives their wer like 4-5 to choose from and the only non raid refference 1 was the first which I belive silicon image sys32 do you have to install all of them like the nvidea ones? man I had absolutely no problems setting up my 2- 80gb WD Caviars in raid 0 but the new 250gb WD caviar se16 is another story. ALL ARE SATA 2 DRIVES  so I know that SATA 2 works on my board im useing it right now! Could any of the lLocal Forum Gurus with prior experience with the controller tell me exactly how to configure the set up NON RAID!  PLLLLLLEASE.........
                                                      Thanks in advance

    Thanks for all of you help Bas, and the quick responce! I was asking  about which would be the prefered set up  raid 0 on silicon image  and sigle drive non raid on port 3-4 Nvidea or vice versa. I'm sure that it is a matter of prefference, but I do plan to overclock slightly when it cools down and I have done more reading on it! My primary goal is Stabilily and performance in harmonic balance whith out data corruption, or risking blowing things up! Any way hows life in Belgium? I have yet to travel to Europe, traveled to just about all of the states and lived on 2 of the Hawaiian Islands. So as you can tell Bas I am more partial to warm weather. I am quite a bit more in tuned with European culture than most people. My folks are from Australia and New Zealand so i'm not youre typical American! Shoot's Bro thanks for all of youre help and have a good weekend!!
                                                                   Campbell

  • Ms-7220 NVRAID and Silicon Image driver installation.

    Anybody know how to install the nVidia RAID Controller Software and drivers after Windows is up and running, same with Silicon Image for RAID and Non-Raid Controller Functions.
    The only installation instructions for NVRAID installation is during Windows installation as Boot Device.  Silicon Image installation instruction, errors out when you give it the directory of the Silicon Image drivers stating they are not for your hardware configuration, but the file are the current MSI download for 64 Bit Silicon Image drivers.
    Have this problem on two Ms-7720's one is the one in my signature and the other is about the same configuration, but parts may be by different manufactures.
    nVidia SATA ports all work with single drives, Silicon Image does not work with any drives or are any drives detected by BIOS on Silicon Image controller, and both systems are the same.
    Roger
    When submitting a problem, include a complete list of your system components; include part numbers, all Power Supply Voltages, and their output ratings.  It is almost impossible to estimate what your problem is without knowing something about it.

    Uninstalled all nVidia On board device drivers and software, then reinstalled and all of the above problems are gone.
    In addition, found out that if you disable all on board nVidia devices and use only the basic Northbridge and Southbridge functions the MS-7220 is one solid running system.  Standard IDE/SATA device controllers is stable, everything else I tried that is nVidia Chipset hardware or nVidia software driven, uninstall and/or disable.  PassMark's Burn-In program runs with out errors only when the nVidia Chipset Primary functions are used.  Does not seam to be any instability problem with on board devices connected through the Chipset, I have been able to find.
    syar2003, the unknown devices program found no unknown device and through it and other DMI diagnostic programs found that DMI did not have this unknown device listed, so the problem was Windows registry bogus entry, which was cleared when I uninstalled all nVidia Chipset Software and drivers.  Thanks for the link, though looks like a useful tool to have.
    Therefore, looks like the problem was a Windows registry entry, caused all the enabling, disabling, installing and reinstalling of devices and software to do all the testing I have be doing on the MS-7220.  The nVidia Raid Controller is really a dog in stability, performance, data corruption and ease of setup and use, but I do not think that will surprise anyone.
    Roger
    When submitting a problem, include a complete list of your system components; include part numbers, all Power Supply Voltages, and their output ratings.  It is almost impossible to estimate what your problem is without knowing something about it.

  • Disable Silicon Image SATA Driver

    I just installed a SATARAID5 Silicon Image driver for my RAID 0, and whenever I start up my pc, the SATARAID5 Array Manager Pops up. Is it ok to disable this from my startup menu so it doesn't pop up every time I start up my pc?

    yes

  • Silicon image sil 3112 and seagate 200GB sata

    hey everyone..
    im trying hard to get dma activated on my sata drive..i dont need raid(and cant have it..only one sata drive  ...but hdparm -tT shows slower performance on the sata drive
    /dev/sda = sata
    /dev/hda = pata
    /dev/sda
    hdparm -Tt /dev/sda
    /dev/sda:
    Timing cached reads:   1008 MB in  2.01 seconds = 502.32 MB/sec
    HDIO_DRIVE_CMD(null) (wait for flush complete) failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
    Timing buffered disk reads:   58 MB in  3.05 seconds =  19.04 MB/sec
    HDIO_DRIVE_CMD(null) (wait for flush complete) failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
    hdparm /dev/sda
    /dev/sda:
    IO_support   =  0 (default 16-bit)
    readonly     =  0 (off)
    readahead    = 256 (on)
    geometry     = 24321/255/63, sectors = 390721968, start = 0
    hdparm -i /dev/sda
    /dev/sda:
    HDIO_GET_IDENTITY failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
    the results for the pata drive are
    /dev/hda
    hdparm -Tt /dev/hda
    /dev/hda:
    Timing cached reads:   996 MB in  2.00 seconds = 497.58 MB/sec
    Timing buffered disk reads:  120 MB in  3.00 seconds =  39.97 MB/sec
    im able to enable dma/set Xfer mode/IO/ only in the pata drive, not in the sata drive..in kernel config ive enabled "scsi low-level->sata support->silicon image sata support" and also enabled "silicon image chipset support under ATA/ATAPI/MFM/RLL support"
    im right now using sata as root and the drive is stable..just need dma..thanks in advance

    According to Jeff Garzik's sata pages the drivers for the Sil 311x chipsets have beta status.
    I had worse luck with my no-name PCI Sil-SATA controllers: as soon as I connected a hard disk the kernel would not boot anymore when using libata drivers. I can only use the allegedly deprecated IDE drivers,  these work fine for me.
    The libata drivers should set the proper DMA modes automatically, but things are slightly different with SATA. Anyways, 20MB/s is proof enough that some sort of DMA is actually there. Performance would be much worse without any DMA at all.
    If you really want to use the libata driver you should try a 2.6.12rc kernel, libata has seen quite a many updates since 2.6.11
    Cheers,
    Dominik

  • SiI3132 1.2.3.0 eSATA driver won't install

    I'm having trouble installing the SiI3132 1.2.3.0 eSATA driver (http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3), I keep getting this message:
    "The installation failed.
    The installer encountered an error that caused the installation to fail. Contact the software manufacturer for assistance."
    Any ideas what to do? (Silicon Image "does NOT support End-Users directly")

    Hello
    I have the same problem do you have a solution ?
    Thanks

  • Silicon Image SiI3114

    I am trying to build a SATA RAID server using the Silicon Image SiI3114 SATA RAID HBA, consisting of two Hitachi 250 GB 7.2krpm PATA drives.
    The BIOS on the controller recognizes the drive, and if I interrupt autoboot, it detects the controller along with the independent drives.
    However, it does not recognize it to be able to install Solaris 10 (any release from 3/05 to 6/06 beta).
    It appears as though this is a recurring problem with Solaris, and if I can't get it it to work properly, I will have to switch to another OS.
    I have the drives currently in RAID0 configuration, and haven't tried JBOD.
    If there are any suggestions, that would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks.

    Well my good gentlemen, I think between all of us, we may have, (as hatter put it), finally stumbled upon something. I always suspected the Hardware developers. Especially when you get 'cookie cutter' replies. It started with FirmTek and their mistrust toward an educated consumer's inquiries.
    Then after pressing Tech Support with Sansdigital on their forum, it took repetitive questions to finally get them to admit their PCIe card was ONLY tested in '10.4.10'
    The information online, or on the packaging? Take your pick, it's basically all inconclusive, or in my opinion, 'unproven'. I think business trends are such that a product is tested for the 'majority of users', who in this case probably already went to 10.5
    My feeling is that OWC may not be aware of the Silicon Image issue as well. But perhaps I'll wait until I get the Lycom card and try it first before I reformat for a 3rd time.
    Thank you all
    Mike

  • PCIe card for eSATA drives - and 10.6

    Help !!!!
    I have 15 1TB external hard drives - in three 5-bay DAT Optic enclosures. They are on my Mac Pro (2009) - and they house tens of thousands of photographs for clients.
    The external drives run from a PCIe card - using a Silicon Image driver ... SiI3124
    http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?pid=27
    My copy of Snow Leopard will arrive on Monday .. and now I learn that SiI3124 is not supported under 10.6. That makes it unusable for me.
    Does anyone know of a PCIe card that can run eSATA drives under 10.6 ???
    I can't believe that 10.6 was released without a driver to support external hard drives - other than consumer USB boxes.
    Sometimes I fear that Apple is becoming a music store - and forgetting its role in supporting the graphics industry that helped found it. PCs run Photoshop faster than do Mac Pros with CS4 -- and now I can't even store my images with 10.6 !!!!!!!!
    What a huge disappointment !!!!!!!!!
    Dick
    http://www.wilderness-studio.com

    CIAVT wrote:
    Use the Sonnet tech cards, they have a 10.6 compatibility matrix in the support section of their site. Yes, I paid more for the card when I got it, but I haven't had any headaches with it at all. I guess you get what you pay for.
    This is good advice for both PCIe and Expresscard. I have discussed this with Sonnet and I think they regret the cheap/expensive strategy owing to the lack of support on SI drivers. They did lower the price on the Expresscard/34 Pro by 1/3 , or $100.
    I still have their E2P (PCIe Si 2 port based card) and an Expresscard/34 (non-Pro) available cheap for anyone who thinks Si drivers are a good value.
    The new 64 bit driver will be nice for the handful that run in a true 64 bit boot situation which won't be many and is not really necessary at all anyway. OF course if you have one 32 bit driver you need then that won't be a viable option.

  • K8N Diamond Silicon Image SATA problem

    Hi everyone,
    I have a problem with my Silicon Image controller,
    when I installed WinXP and tried to install drivers for the
    Silicon Image controller (in SATA mode) it don't exept
    Silicon Image SiI 3132 SATALink Driver 1.0.0.9.
    The only drivers Win exept is RAID drivers. But then I can't use them because
    I dont use RAID array.
    I have tried to update the BIOS without any luck.
    Is it the MB thats is broken or is it Win that has f***ed up?
    My specs:
    AMD Athlon 64 3700+
    MSI K8N Diamond
    4x Kingston HyperX 512MB DDR PC4000 CL3 (3-4-4-8-1)
    HIS Radeon X850XT PE 256MB VIVO
    1x WD Raptor 36GB 10000RPM
    1x Maxtor DiaMax Plus9 120GB
    1x Maxtor DiaMax Plus10 300GB
    1x WD Caviar SE 250GB
    3x Maxtor MaXLine Plus II 250GB
    (all SATA HDD)
    Creative Labs SoundBlaster Audigy 4 Pro
    Plextor PX-716A DVD-R/RW/DL
    Windows XP SP2
    Zalman Reserator 1

    On K8N Diamond the Sil3132 is a Raid5 controller. You can only install Raid5 driver (SataLink and SataRaid drivers don't work, only SataRaid5).
    Use the latest driver version 1.2.3.1. You can download it from MSI.
    If you don't use Raid, then you must go into the Silicon Image bios setup utility (CTRL+S or F4, when displayed) and set for each drive a JBOD array (Create Array -> JBOD).
    (On newer bios JBOD has changed to CONCATENATION.)

  • New DVR, Can't Recognize Existing ESata Drive/Prog​rams

    I had a Motorola 7216 DVR box that had an external ESata drive.  The box had three issues:  froze 2-3 times a day for maybe 30 seconds, sound "clipping" during loud sections of shows/movies, and I could never get the Android app or web app to connect to the DVR.  So, I received a new 7232 DVR today.  Prior to disconnecting the old, I did the proper method of ejecting of the ESata Drive.  
    I hooked up the new DVR, and (possibly mistakenly) hooked up the ESata drive as well before booting it up the first time.   Did the initialization, all went well.   Went through the routine of adding ESata, rebooted, didn't recognize the drive.   Realize I maybe shouldn't have plugged it in, so unplugged ESata cord, rebooted, did Set-Top Box Auto Correct, then went through the proper routine to add external storage.   However, when rebooting, the box blinks one light for 30 seconds, then the entire display lights up, then it reboots, repeating this routine ad infinitum (nothing ever displays on the TV).   
    So, thinking I got a bad box, I hook up the old DVR, get it working, and then run the add ESata routine.  It now is in the same infinite loop as the old box (for 30 minutes now as I type).  
    Removing the ESata, and rebooting, back to normal operation, though without ESata and all of the recorded shows.  
    Any ideas?   Do you think my "mistake" in hooking up the ESata drive to the new box right off the bat might have messed up the drive?   I'm ordering an ESata to Sata cable so I can hook up the drive to my PC and see if it's accessable.  Maybe I can reformat it, knowing we'll lose all our programs (actually, my wife's programs......no big deal to me )
    Or does it take a long time to initialize an existing ESata drive with lots of programs on it?  
    Solved!
    Go to Solution.

    Greetings, armond_in_nj!
    Thanks for your message responding to my plea for help!
    OK.... Finally have had time to try everything again AND make notes along the way.
    I have a Motorola STB, model HD DVR QIP 7216 P2 500GB.
    I have a Western Digital external eSata hard drive, model  WDBABT0010HBK-NESN – 1TB (on the "approved" list).
    And yes, I have tried everything mentioned in the post by "steveKane" just above my original. See below at the end for what happened when I tried to re-format my WD drive on my desktop PC.
    When I first got my WD external HD several months ago, I had to call Verizon support to get the DVR to recognize the Western Digital external HD, but we finally got that fixed and all was fine (i.e., programs recording to external HD, status visible under DVR/Recorder Status using my remote). Then, around mid-november, when I would schedule programs to record, either when I was asleep or at work, when I went to view them later, often times one program was broken into 2 or more segments. Then a little later, sometimes while watching a recorded program, the DVR would just freeze. I would reset the Set Top Box (STB) and could continue watching the program. But this all got worse and worse and, finally, I called tech support. After a frustrating hour with a tech support person, who declared everything was fine with my STB because I could press RECORD and the DVR would record a short segment of programming. During that hour conversation, we had reset the STB more than 10 times. I finally asked to speak with this technician's supervisor, who finally agreed with me that the STB needed replacing. When I received the new STB, it would not function at all. So.... another call to support, more attempts on their end to re-set the STB, and finally they agreed that I needed yet another new STB. When that arrived, I went through all the proper steps to set up the STB first, without the external HD and, only when the new STB was working properly did I try to get it to recognize my external HD.
    The Western Digital instructions for connecting their drive to my DVR are as follows:
    1. Power off the DVR box by disconnecting the AC power cord. --- Did that
    2. Connect one end of the eSATA cable to your My Book AV and the other end to the DVR box (do not use a USB cable to connect to DVR) -- Did that
    3. Connect one end of the AC power cord to the My Book AV and the other end to the electrical outlet. The power LED inlluminates. ---- I did, and it did
    4. Waii approximately 15 seconds for the hard drive to reach operating speed. -- Did that
    5. Power on the DVR box by reattaching the AC power cord. -- Did that
    6. Follow the on-screen instructions.
    This procedure did not work. There were no on-screen instructions when I powered the STB back on. So, I did the following:
    1. I went to "DVR/Enable more storage" and followed the prompts from there, which at one point told me to connect the external HD to the STB, which it already was. I pressed OK to proceed and got the message that "external storage is active for this STB. To detect the external hard, please press OK to reboot the STB".
    2. Did that, waited; during reboot, a white band appears briefly across the TV screen with the words "Please wait" in red, then it goes away as the reboot process continues. Eventually, I get a message that says "Press MENU to watch FiOS TV, or turn your TV off". I press MENU, the screen appears (with red background) saying "Verizon FiOS is starting up - one moment pleast. Initial download in progress. It takes about one minute", then after a minute or so, the TV image appears.
    3. I go to DVR/Recorder status, and the external HD is not there.
    Since the STB prompted me to connect the external HD during step 1 above, I decided to power everything off, disconnect the eSATA cable from the back of the STB, reconnect power to the external HD, then reconnect power to the STB to reboot.
    Everything in step 2 above proceeds as outlined there, but still I got no on-screen instructions after FiOS started back up. So, I went to DVR/Enable more storage, followed the prompts until asked to connect the external HD to the STB, at which time, now, I get a pop-up screen that says "The connected external HD has been previously used with another STB with a different DVR. Using the drive on this STB will remove all existing content on the drive. Do you want to use this drive?" Options are "ACCEPT" or "REJECT". I press OK to ACCEPT, then we go through the whole reboot thing again, and still no sign of the external HD under DVR/Recorder status.
    I even tried connecting the WD external HD to my desktop computer (running XP Professional) using a USB cable (following "steveKane's" suggestion in his posting of 12-02-12), thinking I could try to reformat the drive on my desktop. After connecting, I go to Window Explorer and the drive is not there. When I open the "Safely Remove Hardware" icon in the Task Bar, the drive is visible there. I tried stopping the device, removing it, then waiting a bit and reconnecting it, but get the same results. Not visible in Explorer so that I can try to re-format.
    The posting by "mcorbo" right above "steveKane's" posting says "The only way to reuse the drive is to let the dvr reformat it." So how does one get the DVR to reformat the drive????
    I hope I have given you the information needed.
    I'm at my wits end. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

  • FIOS - IMG 1.9 - Activate eSata drive - Can't connect to server

    Just got updated to the new guide here in the Los Angeles area! Trying to activate an external drive. Says it's trying to activate, and then it says "Unable to connect to the server. Please try again later."
    Anyone experience this? I've got a 7232, new image, and drive connected. It's an older esata external, but I don't even see the access leds on the drive do anything. If the drive is the problem, would the dvr say something about "this esata drive doesn't work" as opposed to saying it can't connect to "the server"?

    Figured it out, Plug in your drive...yank the power on the Dvr...wait 15 sec. Let the dvr boot back up. I didn't even have to try and activate the drive ...the dvr asked me about it once I hit menu to watch tv. At least in my case it didn't work until the dvr booted with the esata drive powered and plugged in during boot.

  • Boot from Silicon Image 3114

    Is it possible to boot from a SATA DVD Drive (Plextor 716SA) using the Silicon Image SATA ports (5-8) rather than the nVidia ones (1-4)?
    I tried it, and the drive/port does appear in the boot menu and I can select it. For some reason, it doesn't even boot from it. Is it supposed to work? Did someone else get it to work?
    Thanks

     

  • Cannot get my eSATA drive to be recognized on my DVR Moto QIP7216

    I bought an eSATA hard drive from Amazon
    Fantom GreenDrive 1TB USB 2.0/eSATA Desktop External Hard Drive GD1000EU
    My DVR is an eligible model, Motorola QIP 7216
    I bought an eSATA drive, but it only came with a USB cable.
    So I bought an eSATA to eSATA (M/M) cable, and connected it to the DVR
    Went through the process of adding more memory, and restarting the set top box, but it still won't recognize it.
    Can someone please help? Am I doing something wrong?

    System Information: 1.9
    Build 10.95
    Data Object Version Number 30.95
    Platform ID QIP-7216 P1

Maybe you are looking for