Booting G4 from G5 backup firewire drive

I'm trying to boot my G4 using my backup firewire drive from my G5 PowerMac, but when I boot with the option key and try and select the FW drive, it won't let me make the choice. The G4 was running OS 10.3, the G5 was running 10.4. But surely it shouldn't matter if I'm booting off the FW drive? Can anyone explain?

Hi, Thomas -
According to Apple KBase Article #24342 - G3 and G4: IDE Master and Slave Support and Configuration it makes no difference which drive is attached to what connector on the IDE ribbon cable - Master or Slave can be at either point (see the last paragraph of that article).
However, if there is but one drive (Master, or perhaps Single for a WD drive), it should probably be placed on the end connector.

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Booting os x from *partitioned* external firewire drive?

Hi all,
my internal hard disk (on a 12" powerbook G4 867 mhz running osx tiger 10.4.10) has started acting weird (many people are reporting failing hard drives, and I'm assuming mine is failing too), so I'm preparing for replacing it with a new hard drive.
I've backed up the drive to an external firewire drive (LaCie portable 80 GB firewire drive "Design by F.A. Porsche") using Carbon Copy Cloner with the option 'make bootable' selected.
PROBLEM: I can't boot OS X using my clone on the external drive.
I'VE TRIED:
1. holding down Command-Option-Shift-Delete while booting to bypass the internal drive. (This didn't work: I saw an os 9 icon blinking/alternating with a question mark for a while, and then the computer booted from the internal hard disk.)
2. holding down Option to select the external drive in Startup Manager. (Didn't work either: Startup Manager opened fine, but only showed my internal drive volume. I tried clicking the 'rescan' button, but it couldn't find my external drive.)
3. SELECTING THE EXTERNAL DRIVE under Startup Disk in System Preferences. Note that the external drive volume *did show up* there. So under some conditions at least, the external volume is identified as a bootable volume. (This didn't work either, though: When I shut down the computer and booted up with the external drive connected, it still booted up from the internal drive.)
POSSIBLE EXPLANATION?
My external drive is partitioned into three partitions of different formats:
1. "Mac OS X Extended (Journaled)"
2. "Mac OS X Extended (Journaled)"
3. "MS-DOS File System (FAT32)"
The bootable volume is the first partition with the os x format.
Could my problem be caused by this partitioning of my external drive?
Either way, what to do?? I hope some of you savvy people out there can help me out.
Cheers,
Philip

Hi Philip,
My problem has been fixed, & I imagine it's the same for you...:
With the excellent help from Dave Nanian at shirtpocket.com - the developer of 'SuperDuper!' (thanks Dave - you rock!), the problem (as Michael suggested) is to do with the Partition Scheme of the drive.
If your drive was like my portable LaCie Porsche drive, it was FAT32-formatted for PC out of the box. This format has an underlying MBR (master boot record) partition-scheme. When re-partitioning a drive in 'Disk Utility', the original partition-scheme sticks, so if you simply re-partition the drive to Mac OS Extended, it will still have an MBR partition scheme... which Macs cannot boot from!
For a Power PC Mac to be able to boot from an external firewire drive, the drive MUST have an APM (Apple Partition Map) Partition Scheme underlying the Mac OS Extended partitions. To do this, click on the 'Options' button in 'Disk Utility' when on the 'Partition' page before partitioning. You will see the options:
GUID Partition Table (for Intel Macs... (n.b. Power PC's cannot boot from a GPT drive))
Apple Partition Map (to create a bootable drive for a Power PC Mac)
Master Boot Record (to create a bootable PC drive)
So.... to make your external drive bootable for your Powerbook G4, choose 'Apple Partition Map' in the 'Options' page prior to partitioning.
Special note about Intel Macs: Contrary to info supplied by Apple, an Intel Mac CAN boot from an APM-partitioned drive (this is why the OSX installer can be univerally bootable!), BUT, the problem is that the OSX installer will NOT let you install OSX-intel on an APM-partitioned drive....
You can, however, clone an Intel-Mac-OSX internal drive that has a GPT partition-scheme (using CCC or SuperDuper) to an external drive with APM, & the Intel Mac will still be able to boot from that clone...
The only real use for doing this, though, is if you want a multi-partitioned backup drive with separate bootable partitions for OSX-PPC & OSX-Intel machines. (Remember that a PPC machine cannot boot from a GTP-partion-scheme drive, hence the need to use APM in this instance seeing as the Partition Scheme applies to the entire drive (it can't be different for each partition.)
Good luck - let us know how you get on!
Jason

Can I boot from an external Firewire drive?

I have restored my internal system drive (27GB) to a 100GB partition on a 300GB external FW drive (as a backup).
Using System preferences I changed the startup disk to be the clone & rebooted to test.
No start and the only way to get going again was to turn the FW drive off & reboot.
Is it possible to boot from a FW drive?
Should a drive as described be bootable?
Any thoughts will be appreciated.
John

Thank you all for your input.
After some trial & error (& little sleep last night) I have made some progress:
Further research suggested that:
1. there may be a hardware issue with my Ex FW case (it has a Prolific PL-3507 chip)
2. Tiger (10.4.x) behaves differently from Panther (10.3.x) and possibly different versions of Tiger may behave differently
Also I have previously successfully used DU to move my OS from a 30GB to 120GB disk (both internal drives) under 10.3.9. This disk will boot when placed in a ext FW case.
I concluded that under 10.3.9 at least my case was OK & Apple DU was OK when run from the boot volume.
I also checked the clone made using DU under 10.4.3 by taking the HDD out of the FW case & installing it internally in my Mac - it wouldn't boot so DU hadn't made a bootable clone - it was never going to boot internally or externally. Ever.
Next step - SuperDuper! - worked perfectly - backed up & booted no fuss, no worries.
This confirms that the Prolific PL-3507 chip will boot an external FW disk under OS X 10.4.3.
I then referred to Lee Cullens' posts as quoted by Matthew Whiting (with a link above in this topic).
Lee has the answer (at least for my hardware/software configuration). For Apple's DU to produce a bootable clone it cannot be run from the disk which is being cloned (ie 3 volumes are needed
1st to boot from & run DU from
2nd to be cloned (the vloume to be backed up)
3rd to be colned onto - the backup
I tried DU from the boot disk again to "prove" it wouldn't work. While it appeared to clone correctly Permissions were all messed up & after over an hour of "Repairing Permissions" I gave up. The volume wouldn't boot even though system preferences saw it as a bootable volume.
I then ran DU from another volume (the one made using SuperDuper!). After verification (but not repairing permissions as I didn't want to potentially waste another hour!) it booted fine from the ext FW drive. I did however uncheck "Ignore Ownership" after Cmd-I on the volume from the desktop.
I conclude:
My hardware is OK (& probably others who may have similar issues)
Apple DU can make a bootable clone which will work on an ext FW drive PROVIDING 3 volumes are used - boot with DU on, from & to. Suitable for a bootable backup but a bit fiddly ( also free & regularly updated by Apple)
SuperDuper does the same job with less fuss (don't need a CD or 3rd volume + other features). As noted by Matthew basic cloning is free but I think the shareware cost will be worthwhile ($US27.95)
SuperDuper! here: http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/SuperDuperDescription.html
Thanks to all for their input.
I now have an answer that I'm more than happy with.
John

Trouble with installing 10.5 from an external firewire drive

I have a family pack of 10.5 and installed it just fine on my macbook. But, I'm having trouble getting my imac DVD player to read the DVD. It just spins and spits it out, and spins and spits it out. The imac is not covered under applecare so spending money to get the DVD drive fixed (which I barely use) is not something I want to do right now.
Anyway, I followed instructions on a this website to install 10.5 from an external firewire drive. (http://iuseapple.com/blog/apple-how-to/advanced-os-x/2007/10/29/how-to-install-l eopard-from-external-firewire-hard-drive/)
But I get stuck and am not able to actually get my imac to boot from the installer. Basically, I am able to use disk utility to create a copy of the disk image on my macbook. That resulting file ends in ".cdr" and it mounts when I double click it.
And I partitioned my firewire hard drive without problems.
I think I'm messing up when it comes to doing the restore. If I try to drag the .dmg mounted file in to the "source" it doesn't work (is greyed out). If I try to drag the mounted .dmg there than it works, but I get an error when I click "restore" (something about scans and images not being found). I tried physically copying the .dmg file onto the partition, but then when I plugged the HD into my imac, I wasn't able to get the imac to boot from the installer.
What am I doing wrong? If someone could walk me through these last steps I'd appreciate it!

Okay I finally got around to creating the bootable disk image of 10.5 using Carbon Copy Cloner. Still my iMac is not booting from the firewire drive!
Here's a recap of everything I've tried. I'm at a complete loss now!
- I partitioned the HD into 2 partitions-- a 10gig one for the 10.5 install, the then the rest for Time Machine. I make the partition in Disk Utility on my MacBook.
- I've partitioned the drive a few times-- always partitioning it in APM format (b/c it needs to boot my non-intel iMac).
- I've created the disk image using "restore" in disk utility. I've again tried this a few times.
- I am able to boot my MacBook from the disk image I create! So I know the FW drive is able to be used to boot from!
- Here's what I've tried in terms of getting the iMac to boot from the FW drive. It always just boots to my internal drive instead. Sometimes I briefly see a folder and question mark. I've tried all 3 FW ports. I've selected the install partition at start up in preferences. I've also held down the option key at start up (only my internal drive shows) and I've held down command-option-shift-delete and again I get the question mark and it boots to my internal drive.
- And I installed Carbon Copy Cloner and made the disk image that way on my macbook. Still, I tried everything and the iMac is not able to boot from the firewire drive!
Since my DVD drive is broken, this is the only way for me to install 10.5! Help!

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Graham Giles wrote:
Have you seen this type of problem before? I think it could be a serious issue for anyone in a similar position.
No; but then, I've not had occasion to use TDM. I've been using firerwire drives for over 10 years, both FW400 and FW800, with no issues except a bit of instability using a B&W G3 machine.
TDM should be safe. Using cautious, manual copying of files from the Target machine to the Host machine should not result in unexpected loss of files or damage to the Target drive's directories. It should behave exactly the same as if it were an external (to the Host) firewire drive.
• I don't suppose there is anything I can do to 'put back' lost items from a separate Time Machine drive which has an up to date backup on it.
There is probably a way to do that - seems to me that's one of the reasons for a Time Machine volume.
On the other hand, if the Time Machine volume is rigidly linked to the now-absent OS on the original drive, there may be no way to effectively access the files in the TM archive.
I know that using a cloned drive would work well in this instance.
I have no experience with Time Machine, so perhaps someone who has will chime in with suggestions.
With the machine in TDM with the other machine, have you tried running Disk Utility to see if you can effect repairs to the drive?

Starting up from external partitioned firewire drive

Hi all,
I have a lacie external firewire drive. I have it partitioned. One partition has a copy of OSX. If i start up on my main drive and set the "start up disk" preferences to the OSX partition on the external drive my G5 will start up on the OSX partition.
However, if i don't set the "start up disk" preferences to the partitioned firewire drive and i try holding down the "option" key during a cold start the G5 won't recognize the partitioned OSX as an option.
I want to have this external copy of OSX as an emergency start up using the "option" key during a cold start.
For the last two years i've used a non-partitioned external firewire drive with OSX installed as an emergency start up disk and the G5 has always recognized the drive while holding down the "option" key from a cold start.
Now that i have OSX on a partitioned external drive, a cold start holding down the "option" key won't recognize the external OSX.
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Also, if i'm not able to start up from this partitioned firewire drive, are there any special instructions for creating a DVD copy of OSX to use as an emergenct start up disk?
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Allan,
I can boot fine from the external, partitioned firewire drive if i first set my "start up disk" preferences to the external drive.
But i if have my "system startup disk" preferences set to the internal drive (as it is normally), shut the machine down, then try a cold start holding down the "option" key, the G5 won't recognize the external drive (partitioned) as an optional system from which to start up from.
In the past, i've dedicated an entire external firewire drive (NOT partitioned) as my emergency start up disk and when i did a cold start of the G5 holding down the "option" key, the G5 had no problems recognizing the external (not partitioned) drive as an optional system for start up.
I'm wondering if by partitioning the external firewire drive i have some how rendered the external drive useless as an alternate start up device.
Questions, questions ...
Paul

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On the QS running Tiger, the USB OSs don't even appear in the Startup Disk Pane of Sys Prefs. I can see the USB drive(s) using the Startup Manager, but selecting them and restarting results in a hung startup to a spinning cog with a prohibitory sign on the screen...
I haven't tried playing around with open firmware NVRAM settings (and don't intend to, except perhaps for trying an NVRAM reset), nor have I attempted to boot to OS 9, reset the startup disk there, and attempt the boot again to the USB device in OS X and in OS 9, which I may try later on when I have a bit of time...
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Message was edited by: Majordadusma

Restoring Files from Backup - Firewire Drive

Hello!
I recently performed a complete re-install of Tiger on my iMac G5, and it is working nicely now. I used SuperDuper to back up the my hard drive to an external firewire drive before doing the install.
Here is my issue: When I try to copy files from the firewire onto my internal hard drive, I get this message: "One or more items have special permissions and cannot be copied. Do you want to skip them?" For example, I received that message when I tried to copy SuperDuper from the firedrive into my internal drive.
I do not want to bring everything from the backup onto my machine since I believe it was software that might have caused my issues which led to reformatting to begin with.
Is there a way to bypass this error? A key combination, perhaps?
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However, for the apps that were drag-and-drop installations, it should be OK to do the same from your backup, if you don't want give your apps a fresh start along with the OS reinstall on a blank volume.
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