Broadband speed slow and drops

Hi Just got Sky broadband and not really happy with the speed i am getting, it goes between 8 down to 2, really annoying especially when my neighbour can get between 12 & 13!! This is a screen shot of my stats, any ideas?Any help would be appreciated?thanks PortStatusTxPktsRxPktsCollision PktsTx b/sRx b/sUp TimeWANPPPoE8314311434200002:07:47LANUp609003855503533241686902:09:07WLANUp877686882104668458502:08:44Broadband LinkDownstreamUpstreamConnection Speed10239 kbps670 kbpsLine Attenuation26.0 dB15.5 dBNoise Margin8.3 dB21.21 dB

I don't know whether or not Sky still do the 10 day line training when your speeds can vary a lot, I thought I'd read on here that they stopped doing it.If they don't do it then your noise margin is too high especially upstream. Lift the phone, press any one number on the keypad and listen for noise on the line hissing or crackling. For a quiet line test dial 17070 option 4 and if you do have noise try plugging just a phone (no filter) into the test socket.If the noise is still there phone Sky and report a line fault (noise) not a broadband fault.

Similar Messages

Broadband Speed Slow And Fluctuating.

I have ADSL broadband from Virgin that is suffering from very slow and fluctuating speed.
They have informed me there is an issue with my line:
"There seems to have been a PSTN failure with the results, we've seen a Dis In Network when running the copper line test"
Can anyone from BT help please?

Your posts do not go to bt. Try reporting a fault to 151
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If someone answers your question correctly please let other members know by clicking on ’Mark as Accepted Solution’.

The internet very very slow and drop in my brand new Mac pro OS X 10.8.3 any help!

I bought new Mac pro with Retina display (OS X 10.8.3) , I am suing Wifi and the Internet very slow and drop most of the time compare to my other Mac OS X10.7.4! any advice. Thank you

Pete
If multiple people are seeing the same problems after making the same changes it is hard to believe that each problem is fundamentally different. To say that a change is specific to a single configuration implies that every computer and every operating system installation are different. This is not rational. Treating each problem individually fixes one problem. Finding the root cause fixes all the problems. I am familiar with finding root cause of communication systems - in particular mission critical spacecraft command and telemetry links. That experience teaches me to break the problem into pieces. My troubleshooting indicates a very high packet loss between my computer and my wireless router. In the exact same configuration with with two other devices i see negligible packet losses. i can go outside my home network and see the same ping and traceroute evidence in comparing the devices. That rules out my ISP, my email provider and pretty much isolates the problem to the router Mac link. Is this thinking flawed? Can you suggest additional tests I can run to further isolate the dropped packet problem? Further, no hardware has changed in my configuration. The only change is the upgrade to 10.8.3.
In posting to other threads I am trying to find if there is evidence of the same problem and to determine if there is any other way to gather evidence, and perhaps suggest ideas that folks might double check their fixes. In doing so you aggregate the problem and not decimate it. The problem in this thread may not be solved if a packet loss is still present. I am seeing packet losses as high as 60%; an iPad at the same location is seeing less than 0.1%. The network connection will work with high packet losses. You know that is what TCP/IP does but why accept 20%, 10% or 5% packet loss if you know it should be much less than 1%. The problem can only be determined if it is tested.
I have created my own thread - I linked to it.
If you prefer to not allow comments on closed threads I would suggest closing the threads to editing. In the future I will link from my thread to the solved one however if my thread finds a better solution there will be no way of pointing from the closed thread to a better solution.
My apologies for attempting to perform a methodical root cause analysis.
Mike

I have just returned from a business trip to China and my Macbook is not well. My internet connection is very slow and drops out intermittently. Is there a utility I can run which might clean it up.

I have just returned from a business trip to China and my Macbook is not well. My internet connection is very slow and drops out intermittently. Is there a utility I can run which might clean it up.

Hello,
I have very similar problem. Suddenly Firefox stopped work - It was working few days after ver. 4 update. I was looking everywhere for some solution but nothing worked.
- uninstalled firewall - did not worked
- added full exception for Firefox into the firewall - did not worked
- Firefox reinstall - did not worked
- Firefox complete reinstall (registry included) - did not worked
- IPv6 diseabling - did not worked
- diferent proxy options (no proxy, system proxy, autodetect proxy) - did not worked
- new firefox profile - did not worked
- complete coockies, history... deleted - did not worked
- there is only one solution which partly works - I have used public proxy addresses for Firefox but the ping is (750ms), down/up (0.8MB/0.2MB originaly (10MB/2MB) and yes I have tried different proxy server from different countries from my included.
- IE is working perfectly and without proxy
- other companies browser - did not worked too
- only IE is working
- I have used three different malware, trojans, spyware, anti-virus programs and nothing
It seems to me as hopeless situation or very clever move from Microsoft, I am forced to use IE - at least this works
Any ideas, solutions?
System Windows 7, firewall Comodo Internet security
Thanks everyone for the help

My original iPad is very slow and drops the signal to websites and videos all the time now. Does it have a virus or extra junk on it to cause this or is it just so old it can not handle the extra stuff on websites these days??

My original iPad is slow and drops web pages and videos all the time now. Is the software just too old to handle the technology changes on the websites and video or is it a virus or junk in the iPad causing this? I have plenty or storage left on the iPad like 18GB. Sure would like to know. Maybe it is just too old to handle things now?

IIf you are running iOS 6.1.2, you could not be using the original iPad. No matter which iPad and what version, try these basic troubleshooting steeps and see if it helps with the performance.
Go to Settings>Safari>Clear History and Website Data. Then close all apps.
In order to close apps in iOS 5 or iOS 6, first tap the home button once. Then tap the home button twice and the recents tray will appear at the bottom of the screen. Tap and hold down on any app icon until it begins to wiggle. Tap the minus sign in the upper left corner of the app that you want to close. Tap the home button twice.
In order to close apps in iOS 7 or 8, you have to drag the app up from the multitasking display. Double tap the home button and you will see apps lined up going left to right across the screen. Swipe to get to the app that you want to close and then swipe "up" on the app preview thumbnail to close it.
Now reset your iPad. Reset the iPad by holding down on the sleep and home buttons at the same time for about 10-15 seconds until the Apple Logo appears - ignore the red slider if it appears on the screen - let go of the buttons. Let the iPad start up.
You can also try resetting all settings. You will not lose any data, but most of the device settings will have to be entered in the settings app again. Settings>General>Reset>Reset all Settings.

Difference between BT Broadband Speed Test and all...

I have recently moved to BT Broadband from TalkTalk as I was dissatisfied with the speeds that I was getting with my TalkTalk line – they were OK outside of peak time but woeful in peak time. With TalkTalk, I was on their ‘up to’ 8Mbps which, in practice, translated to about 6Mbps for download outside peak times but dropped to below 1 Mbps in peak (around 500Kbps and sometimes even lower!) – these measurements were taken regularly with both the TalkTalk and Think Broadband speed tests which were usually roughly in agreement and I haven’t had to rely on memory as I downloaded the spreadsheet records available to Think Broadband registered users.
I am now posting this in the hope that somebody can explain the difference between the BT Broadband Speed Checker (Here) and all the others available on the web.
When you are first connected to BT Broadband they warn you that your speeds will vary over the first ten days while they test your line to ascertain optimum speeds for it. During that time, I checked it every day early, mid-day and evening (usually around 0630, 1230 & 2000 hrs) with Think Broadband and, yes, it did vary – the first day it started at around 1Mbps for download but rose to 10Mbps by the end of the day. On the second day, it rose to a peak of 17.8Mbps which was unbelievably fast to use (well, to me anyway) but never reached that speed again as over the rest of the ‘test period’, the download speed dropped and dropped to the point where I am now outside of the BT test period and consistently seeing only 2 to 2.5Mbps over a 24 hour period.
I emphasise that those speeds were all recorded using Think Broadband but I am now doing tests using the BT checker mentioned above and the speeds which BT indicate for downloads are consistently in the 14 to 18 Mbps range. If I do the BT and TB test in quick succession, they generally show the BT calculated speed to be better than that of TB by a factor of around 7 (ie. TB at 2 Mbps whilst BT show 14Mbps). Now either they are measuring different things (or the sams things differently) or one of them is lying – all I know is that my general browsing experience is slower outside of peak times and I can tell by the time it takes to load pages.
I might have misunderstood something in these tests but I am now beginning to regret that I fell I for the BT sales pitch which promised me ‘up to’ 20 Mbps but ‘more likely’ 17 Mbps. I have tried to discuss thisl with BT Broadband technical support but they were no use whatsoever – indeed, I got the impression that he was reading from a script and as it didn’t cover my issue, I was wasting my time – it would also have helped for English to be his first language!
According to the BT test, I am well within their ‘minimum guaranteed access speed’ (Here). for my area (about 4Mbps) and therefore cannot do anything about it. BUT that is only when measured using the BT speed tester – with any other, I am well below. I am beginning to feel very conned and might even start looking to withdraw from BT if I cannot get this settled.
Can anybody help. I will happily post detailed records of my various tests or router stats if they will help.
Thanks in advance.

OK, I have now done all the tests etc. And here are the results:
ADSL Line Status from HomeHub 3
Connection Information
Line state:
Connected
Connection time:
0 days, 00:27:11
Downstream:
23.71 Mbps
Upstream:
1.176 Mbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI:
0/38
Type:
PPPoA
Modulation:
G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type:
Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up):
3.4 dB / 6.4 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up):
5.3 dB / 2.1 dB
Output power (Down/Up):
19.4 dBm / 11.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up):
0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up):
41 / 24
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):
0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):
0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):
0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up):
20 / 7
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):
61 / 13
BT Speed Test Result
Download Speed: 6.59Mbps
Acceptable Range: 4Mbps - 21 Mbps
IP Profile: 21.42Mbps
Upload Speed: 0.99Mbps
Upstream IP Profile: 0.83 Mbps
Think Broadand Speed Test
Download Speed: 1.8 Mbps
Upload Speed: 0.9 Mbps
Uswitch Speed Test
Dowload Speed: 1.7 Mbps
Upload Speed: 0.9 Mbps
For what it's worth, I followed the guidelines for the BT test and took all of the tests within a 10 minute period.
All I know is that my daytime BT connection is nowhere near as fast as I had from TalkTalk. Indeed, it was not even quick enough to watch non-HD YouTube videos earlier this morning without freezing to buffer.

Broadband Speed Slow - what do the speedtest resul...

I am experiencing slow download speed, video slow and jumpy etc. I have run speedtest and the results are below. I have a BT Total Broadband Option 3 package with up to 20Mb download, why do I struggle to get 0.25Mb, one hundredth of the advertised and now in my mind very expensive service?
Rob
Download Speed
279 Kbps
0 Kbps
500 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed
Download speedachieved during the test was - 279 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 50-500 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :6720 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 350 Kbps
Solved!
Go to Solution.

Is this the information required?
Rob
Broadband connection details:
Downstream
6,720 Kbps
Upstream
448 Kbps
Connection time
0 days, 3:35:11
Data transmitted
23.11 MB
Data received
138.35 MB
Broadband user name
[email protected]
Troubleshooting
Information for Helpdesk agents
Product Name
BT Home Hub
Firmware Version
6.2.6.E
Board Version
V10
ADSL Uptime
0 days, 3:33:59
Bandwidth
448 / 6,720
Broadband Username
[email protected]
Wireless Security
WEP-64
Wireless Channel
7
Firewall
Standard
441202335519
Registered
VPI/VCI
0 / 38
Line Profile
Interleaved
Wi-Fi Community
No

Low broadband speeds, connection keeps dropping

Recently I have seen broadband speeds drop from about 11mb to about 2. this is coupled with the home hub 4 constantly dropping the connection and the orange power light flashing orange.
Bt have been here but claim no problem on the line.
I am starting to think this is related to the latest firmware upgrade. Is there anyway to roll back to test this theory. Or does anyone have any other suggestions.
Thanks
James

welcome to the BT community forum where customers help customers and only BT employees are the forum mods
in order for the forum members to help please can you post the adsl stats from your router you may need to 'show detail' to get all stats (if hub enter 192.168.1.254 in your browser and navigate to adsl or if HH4/5 then go to troubleshooting then logs and you are looking for 2 line together when hub last connected to internet and they will show your connection speed and noise margin or if netgear enter 192.168.0.1). Then run btspeedtester (MAC users may have problems). when first test completes then run diagnostic test and post the results ( do not reset the router).
Lines should look like this
19:11:29, 07 Nov. (2290101.460000) DSL noise margin: 7.00 dB upstream, 6.10 dB downstream
19:11:29, 07 Nov. (2290101.390000) DSL line rate: 448 Kbps upstream, 288 Kbps downstream
are you connected directly via a filter to the NTE5 master or test socket or to somewhere else? Is the master the only phone socket in your home?
Have you tried the quiet line test? - dial 17070 option 2 - should hear nothing - best done with a corded phone. if cordless phone you may hear a 'dull hum' which is normal
Someone may then be able to offer help/assistance/suggestions to your problem
If you like a post, or want to say thanks for a helpful answer, please click on the Ratings star on the left-hand side of the post.
If someone answers your question correctly please let other members know by clicking on ’Mark as Accepted Solution’.

Broadband Speed slowed to a crawl all of a sudden

Hi,
My broadband speed is currently 0.04mbps according to speedtest.net, I have been unable to complete the BT speed test because it is so slow, I get the following error:
"We haven't been able to complete the speed test at this time.
This may be due to a problem with the speed tester, or your line may be running very slowly."
I have disconnected all other devices and closed any application using the internet on my PC. I can confirm nothing else on my PC is using the connection because I am monitoring the traffic.
All I can give you is my router stats:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state:
Connected
Connection time:
5 days, 18:58:00
Downstream:
15.43 Mbps
Upstream:
1.14 Mbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI:
0/38
Type:
PPPoA
Modulation:
G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type:
Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up):
6.7 dB / 6.2 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up):
25.2 dB / 11.7 dB
Output power (Down/Up):
20.4 dBm / 11.8 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up):
0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up):
121762 / 32
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):
0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):
0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):
0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up):
239648 / 7
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):
2171 / 0
Thanks

Hi Reed_Richards,
The OP was trying to use the BT Retail speedtester (http://diagnostics.bt.com/login/?workflow=Speed) which does sometimes not work if the throughput speed is to slow.
The BT Wholesale speed tester at http://speedtest.btwholesale.com should work though.
@remondo,
As well as what Reed_Richards and I have said, is there any known issues at your local exchange? Check via these websites:
1) http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/15036
2) http://btbusiness.custhelp.com/app/service_status
3) http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/?
4) http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/mso.php
Cheers
I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong

Broadband getting slower and slower

Hi,
For the past few weeks broadband has been getting slower and slower, from about 2.5Mbps down to 0.3Mbps so far.
ADSL line status
Connection Information
Line state
Connected
Connection time
1 days, 04:44:50
Downstream
287 Kbps
Upstream
924 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI
0/38
Type
PPPoA
Modulation
G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type
Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up)
7.1 dB / 5.5 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up)
58.9 dB / 35.0 dB
Output power (Down/Up)
1.5 dBm / 1.4 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote)
0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote)
0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote)
0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up)
7780 / 2
CRC Errors (Down/Up)
43 / 1
HEC Errors (Down/Up)
6 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote)
15 /
I have reported the fault a number of times, but have been told 'we cannot find a fault', and line tests report there is no problem.
The quiet line test sounded ok, everything is plugged into the master socket with a filter.
This is the same as a problem i had before, which was fixed after posting on this forum.
Hopefully someone who can help will see this and be able to get it fixed.
Thanks

Hi Welcome to the forums
Here is a basic guide to getting help from the community members done by CL Keith Please read through the link posted http://forumhelp.dyndns.info/speed/first_steps.html
Have you tried the quiet line test? - dial 17070 option 2 - should hear nothing - best done with a corded phone. if cordless phone you may hear a 'dull hum' which is normal
once you have posted the information asked for then the community members can help you more
Thank You
This is a customer to customer self help forum the only BT presence here are the forum moderators
If you want to say thanks for a helpful answer,please click on the Ratings star on the left-hand side If the reply answers your question then please mark as ’Mark as Accepted Solution’

Broadband speed slow, high noise margin

This is my first time posting on the forums here and I would just like to report an issue with the connection I have, I live right at the end of the main phone line on a farm and have never had a good connection but recently the speeds have become appalingly slow and I dont understand what is causing it. Here are the stats of the line:
Very slow as you can see.
Here are the advanced options when doing the ping test which state that the maximum download speed is 0.25, which I don't understand as the day before I had 0.50. I asked a friend who said it was likely a noise issue so here are the stats for that:
I'm unfamiliar with what these stats mean but my friend who used to work for BT said my noise ratio is to high and would cause caps on my connection. I'm at a loss as to what to do and would appreciate any help on what may be causing this and any ways to fix it. As a bit of background I switched from AOL to BT a month ago due to infernally slow internet speeds, after a brief spell where the speeds under BT were good they suddenly went back to these levels again, I have spoken to BT staff over the phone who have reset the line twice which causes a brief spike in performance then it goes back to this level. Any help would be appreciated and thankyou for your time.

Hi Paul_Mastrangelo,
With a line attenuation of 70.9dB your landline is approx 5.1km long from your property to your local exchange.
With a line attenuation of 70dB you may not be able to get a broadband connection much over 1mbps or even much over 0.5mbps as your line is just too long in distance from your property to the exchange.
I also see your on Adsl2, nice too see such a long line that can atleast support it, mine can't
As Keith and imjolly has said, it is recommended to keep the homhub/router connected 24/7 and constantly connected especially for those with longer lines as any slight upset to the sync rate can cause an effect to the speed.
You may also be interested in this here: http://goo.gl/MNb8s
It's about providing superfast broadband for rural communities and to areas with slow broadband speeds.
Hope that helps,
Cheers
EDIT
PS: The quite line test is when you dial 17070 from your landline phone and select option 2 called Quite line test. There should be no noise (such as crackling, hissing, popping, etc...) but a slight hum on a cordless phone is normal.
I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong

Slow and dropping connection WRT300n v 2/WMP300 v 2

Slow an dropping connections on WRT300n v 2/WMP300 v 2 updated with latest firmware/driver.
Before update it gave a speed of 3-4 mbit/s and after update about 30 mbit/s, this is just a bit better(10-13%) than the D-link products (604/AP2000+/DWL-G510) i intended too let go of old age.
For E-mail and surfing the web this speed is ok, but sharing files and use a mediacenter its not ok.
Next problem is that after about 30-40 min of full load the router just dropps all connections and reboots or what ever.
The Linksys products WRT300N/WMP300 is not a what a expected it too be
Benke Svensson
Stockholm
Sweden
(Mod Note:Edited for non-compliance of forum guidelines.)
Message Edited by daikunzeon on 12-27-2006 07:41 AM

THE BEST THING TO DO IS TO CHANGE THE CHANNEL. I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM MY CONNECTION GOT LOST.
on the 192.168.1.1 - type this on your web browser to log in. go to wireless settings tab
Network Mode: Mixed
Network Name [ ssid] ?????????
Radio Band: Standard -20MHz Channel
Wide Channel: 9 faded
Standard Channel: 11 - 2.462GHZ
SSID Broadcast: Enabled

Broadband speed slow

My Broadband speed is nowhere near what is advertised.
Is there anything I can do to improve things?
BT Home Hub 3
ADSL Line Status
Connection information
Line state:    Connected
Connection time:    12 days, 15:45:27
Downstream:    5,184 Kbps
Upstream:    448 Kbps
ADSL settings
VPI/VCI:    0/38
Type:    PPPoA
Modulation:    G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type:    Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up):    7.8 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up):    48.5 dB / 31.0 dB
Output power (Down/Up):    19.3 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up):    36918351 / 3940
CRC Events (Down/Up):    64685 / 3271
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):    0 / 11
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):    5 / 11
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):    0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote):    0
HEC Errors (Down/Up):    763004 / 3343
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):    0 / 0
Broadband Speed Test
at 11:20 14th March 2014
From Exchange   5.18Mb
At PC Download   4.54Mb
           Upload   0.36Mb
Quiet Line Test is quiet, no noise.
Master Socket is where the phone line enters the house.
Solved!
Go to Solution.

welcome to the forum where customers help customers
your conenction speed appears about what I would expect for someone with an attenuation of 48/49db on adslmax
your download speed appears consistent with your connection speed suggesting that your ip profile is correct
check speed here
check speed
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If someone answers your question correctly please let other members know by clicking on ’Mark as Accepted Solution’.

AE: green light, wireless n, net is slow and drops

I bought an Airport Express for my girlfriend. She has a 10.4 Core 2 Duo Macbook with N enabler installed. I think the AE is running the latest firmware (7.4.1).
The internet is terribly slow and cuts in and out. The light is always green. I've tried the usual fixes (hard reset, channel, turned off N and tried g, etc). I have yet to try it with another computer but I have a mini I can test it with. Internet is fast via ethernet.
Suggestions? Anyone else experiencing this problem? I don't know what the heck else to do.

I gave this a shot as part of ruling out the modem. The modem connected to the computer via ethernet is very fast. In fact, the modem was usually switched off overnight (but not the AE).
An old wireless g airport express was fast and never had any issues. Unfortunately it was broken.

Once again, service drops out, speed slows and I have to reset the modem lots

Here are the links to the last posts/problems:
{edited for privacy}
4/29 reset router 5 times had to go into the verizon management console (VMC) twice to enable router for WiFi
4/30 reset router once
5/2 reset router once
5/3 connection speed dropped to 2.9 reset router 6 times
5/4 connection speed dropped to 2.5 reset router twice
5/6 reset router once
5/8 reset router once
5/9 connection speed dropped to 1.9 reset router 3 times had to go into VMC to enable router for WiFi
5/10 connection speed down to 1.5 reset router four times
5/11 --today--connection speed down to 1.5 reset router 4 times--it is only 9:30 AM--four times since 7 AM? sketchy service indeed
my original post was here
forums.verizon.com/t5/High-Speed-Internet-DSL-and-Dial/What-s-up-quot-line-problems-quot-with-regards-to-high-speed/m-p/692388/highlight/true#M24452
I note with irony how you will see that someone tried to contact me...but that isn't the case. I contacted them. By phone because that was what the "Chat" customer service person told me to do. This is classic case of one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. When I do get a live person on the phone ....Basically....verizon says there is a "line problem" and I wait for three days and the speed gets better for about a week, and then the speed drops off.
They can't deliver what I am paying for. I don't have a phone, I pay for high speed internet because FIOS is unavailable. Currently as I type this....speed test says I am .9/.27...the modem tells me 1.5/.4 but it drops as well. What is the issue, Verizon?
In addition someone on Verizon's end says...someone will call you in a few hours...which never happens. Never. More like in a day or two. If that.
Buyers beware....beware,,,

Hi whit616,
We have reopened your private support case. Please access your case thread by following the instructions we have posted in your original public thread, HERE.
Please note that you need to access the private thread and respond to the agents' requests. The agents cannot begin to assist with your issue until they hear from you.

Broadband speed slow and drops

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