Cinema tools workflow

can't seem to get the cinema tools manual to open on the apple site. Does anyone have any other suggestions for information on good cinema toos-finalcut workflow literature?
thanks

The cut frame (for negative cutting) will be correct for 23.98 or 24. The advantage of 24 is if you sync sound in Final Cut, you can bring sound it at it's captured rate.
If you edit at 23.98, you retain the slow down imposed in film to video transfer (telecine) and thus need to slow down your sound by the same amount (1/10th of 1 percent, or .1%) to sync.
Where there can be some adjustment of cut frames for negative cutting is if you edit at 29.97. This is because the cut frame could potentially contain information from 2 different film source frames.

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Cinema tools workflow directions.. Need Help please...

I'm cuting a short that was shoot in 35mm, Dailes are transfer to Beta SP at 29,97, and also have the flex files. So:
I import the flex files to Final Cut and Cinema Toos, and have a batch list. The questions is.. Which frame rate is use to digitize the tapes? Do I need to use 29.97 and then reverse telecine ? or Digitize stright to 23.98. I'm consufe about it.. But for sure I need to deliver a cut list for the negative.
Many thanks

The cut frame (for negative cutting) will be correct for 23.98 or 24. The advantage of 24 is if you sync sound in Final Cut, you can bring sound it at it's captured rate.
If you edit at 23.98, you retain the slow down imposed in film to video transfer (telecine) and thus need to slow down your sound by the same amount (1/10th of 1 percent, or .1%) to sync.
Where there can be some adjustment of cut frames for negative cutting is if you edit at 29.97. This is because the cut frame could potentially contain information from 2 different film source frames.

Film Workflow w/ FCP & Cinema Tools

I am cutting a feature shot on film for the first time and have a workflow question. Apologies if this post has been done to death and feel free to send a link to another post or site.
The film is being shot in 2 perf 35mm. It is going to the post house to be transferred to HDSR for effects. We are being given DVCAM tapes with burnt in timecode at 29.97 for offline editing. We will then give them an EDL at the end for online.
So what's next?
If I capture the DVCam tapes at 29.97, I then have to conform in CinemaTools right? This is where I'm unsure, as I am not familiar with the program.
Any info on the steps would be VERY much appreciated. Cheers in advance!

BTW - That "read the cinema tools" response was both unhelpful and trite.
Your question deals with workflow, however, something confuses me.
If the feature was shot on 35mm, Telecine to HD-CAM SR and then downconverted to SD DV-CAM, I really doubt it is 29.97 w/ burned timecode.
Usually people shoot 24 when shooting film.
If that is the case then:
1) Your HD-CAM SR is 23.98
2) Your DVCAM is 29.97 with 23.98 Timecode burn in.
If you need to deliver an EDL for offline then your EDL will be worthless if your cutting in 29.97. The timecodes won't match.
So, the easiest thing (if an option) is to get the HD-CAM SR and get a Pro-Res file of that at 23.98. That could be converted down to whatever format you need for editing and wouldn't require removing pulldown. It will also give you a perfect EDL because it was taken from the master.
The second way, is to go the route you already have in mind.
1) Capture DVCAM at 29.97 and
2) remove 3:2 pulldown before you start editing.
There are many pitfalls with this method but atleast you have the burn-in to use as reference if you stray off course (meaning, you remove pulldown incorrectly).
Here are some methods:
A) track down After Effects. It has a function called Inerpret Footage. This will guess your pulldown and create new native media. This is my preferred method.
B) Use Cinema Tools. You should export a small segment of your footage and test removing the pulldown. Most don't get it right without determining the I-Frame.
C) Use Compressor's frame controls to remove your pulldown. This method (in my mind) is the sloppies of the bunch. It provides errors around cadence breaks... some people will disagree.
Either way, you'll need to treat that DVCAM footage before you start editing. Otherwise, you'll have to hand write your EDL if you cut in NTSC (29.97).
Hope this helps.

29.97 EDl to 24 in Cinema tools ::: inaccurate data result

Hello. I've been looking at some forums but haven't been able to find anybody with the same situation. I'm converting my EDL file from 30fps to 24fps on Cinema Tools. I opened the file to revise if the timecodes were indeed correct. Some of my "in" and "out" timecodes end in 00:00:00:29 or 00:00:00:28 and that shouldn't be since i'm supposedly converting everything to 24fps so everything should end in that range of frames (01 through 24 ), right?
Anything that might come to mind or relate to this problem?
i have a FCP 7
Best regards

Well then, that is your problem. Those aren't reverse telecin-able. What are reversable are DV tapes that you captured at 29.97...in the DV/NTSC codec.
Are you working with Digital Intermediates? Or footage telecined to tape?
Typical Telecine to Tape workflow is:
Telecine to DVCAM
Lab provides DVCAM and Flex file to you.
Open Cinema Tools. Import Flex file and export batch Capture list.
Import batch capture list into FCP.
Batch Capture the DV footage.
Reverse telecine the footage with Cinema Tools.
Edit.
What exactly are you doing? Where did these files come from? What is your workflow?
Shane

Can't Conform Red footage through Cinema Tools?

Hi there, need advice.
I can't conform off line Prores footage with original R3D files.
1. I created database by dropping the hard drive ikon with original Red footage into Cinema Tools. Cinema Tool creates the file with extension .ctdb (cinema tools data base)
2. From FCP I exported EDL of my project/sequence.
3. Then, I opened Color and imported EDL,
4. New window pops up and asks for database file.
5. Choosed database.
6. Color loads the cuts into timeline but it *doesn't connect/import* original R3D files. Why?
What am I doing wrong?
Also, I did this workflow before successfully but for some reason it doesn't work now.
Many thanx,
ps
Color 1.5.2
REDCODE 4.2
footage shot with build 21
frame size 4096x2304

Never mind.
Step 4 and 5 was not necessary. I guess Color remembers database from previous projects.

Problems with reverse telecine in Cinema tools

I am trying to reverse telecine some 24p footage I shot on a panasonic dvx. I have captured several tapes of footage in FCP 7 (as 29.97 footage to get the full data stream), then I have been sending clips to cinema tools to be reverse telecined, then bringing them back into FCP and editing on a 23.98 timeline. So far, I have used this workflow with three of my tapes and they all look fine in the end, but with one tape in particular I took all of the same steps but am having problems. When I bring clips from that tape into cinema tools and select "reverse telecine" it seems as if Cinema Tools is working and processing the footage, but at the very end the window with that clip suddenly disappears and no .rev file of the footage is created. Cinema tools remains open, only that window with the footage that was being processed is gone. I have tried recapturing the footage, renaming it, and double-checking my capture settings in FCP but have yet to figure out why these clips from this tape in particular will not be reverse telecined. Any suggestions about what I could be doing wrong?

I am almost positive I shot them the exact way, although the scene file dial on the dvx is pretty easily changed, so maybe if I bumped it during filming...
So to check, I looked at the footage before it was reverse telecined on an external moniter and it looks the same as all my other footage--with about 2 interlaced frames for every five frames. Is there another way I could check?
I'll try your compressor idea and see if that will remove the 3:2 pulldown! Thanks for the advice!

Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine problem-24 vs. 23.98 + sound issue

Hello again folks,
Trying to figure this all out, and thanks in advance for your input; this forum is amazing and has been invaluable!
I've been studying the FCP and CT pdf manuals and lots of links/threads here in the forum to get the proper workflow, have tried it all out, and ran into some problems:
Need to convert--sorry--REVERSE TELECINE--my captured DV 24p (captured at 29.97) footage into 23.98fps to edit in 23.98. Copied some media files so as not to ruin the originals, chose them from project bins, and sent them to CT using FCP'S "Tools>Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" (super easy and feeling overconfident). When I checked the footage, two things were odd:
1) My new frame rate was at "24" not "23.98", which I believe I want to be working in in order to achieve my desired finished product (I'm sure I read this in the forum and links, does it matter?), and
2) for kicks, while there in Tools, I tried one clip with "Tools>Remove Advance Pulldown", which did result in the 23.98fps.
3) about 6 seconds into the new 23.98fps clip the sound disappears (I checked and the original clips have good sound throughout).
Any thoughts out there on this. Should I be reversing telecine from within CT (by importing clips), and not from FCP's easy Tools>Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine.
Any links or thoughts to clarify will be received with great admiration and thanks!
Greg
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8) FCP ver.5.1.2. and CT ver.3.1.2
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8)
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8)

We'll need some more details. Where is your footage coming from? Was it originally HDCAM and downconverted to DV? Was the audio recorded straight to tape or was it synced in post? Is it consistently one or two frames out of sync or does it drift out of sync? How was it digitized? If you open the clip in Cinema Tools and step through it frame by frame do you see any interlaced frames?
There are dozens of things that can go wrong with this sort of process, so it's important to get really detailed.

TRIED EVERYTHING/NO LUCK with Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools 29.97 to 24p

I read an article that was on Ken Stones site. It said that, basically you CAN'T
take a clip that is at 29.97 and has 3:2 pulldown in it, and get it to actual 24 progressive frames? Is this true? Has ANYONE out there actually removed pulldown CORRECTLY with footage shot at 24, then transferred to 29.97?
I've tried all options with Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine, and I always wind up with some interlacing.
My QT clip has a 3:2 cadence, one can frame through it and see this.
Am I missing something here? Does anyone know a procedure that can get me to 24 progressive frames. Is there a 3rd party piece of software out there?
Any relies appreciated.
G5 2.3 early Mac OS X (10.4.7) Cinema Tools V 3.1.1
G5 2.3 Mac OS X (10.3.8) Cinema Tools V3.1.1 QT V7.1.2 FCP V5.1.1

Well then, that is your problem. Those aren't reverse telecin-able. What are reversable are DV tapes that you captured at 29.97...in the DV/NTSC codec.
Are you working with Digital Intermediates? Or footage telecined to tape?
Typical Telecine to Tape workflow is:
Telecine to DVCAM
Lab provides DVCAM and Flex file to you.
Open Cinema Tools. Import Flex file and export batch Capture list.
Import batch capture list into FCP.
Batch Capture the DV footage.
Reverse telecine the footage with Cinema Tools.
Edit.
What exactly are you doing? Where did these files come from? What is your workflow?
Shane

Conforming 1080p60 to 30fps in Cinema Tools?

Hi there. I'm trying to conform 1080p 60 video converted to .mov's in clip wrap, from the sony NEXea50 to 30 fps in cinema tools, and the conform tab is grayed out. I have never had this problem with 720p60... Does cinema tools not support conforming 1080p60 to 30 or 24fps? Does Clip wrap convert frame rates at all? Thanks...

Awesome, thanks for the reply!
Hmm, what do you think is best? In the essence of time, could I just xcode the original PAL 50fps 720 clips to pro res, conform to 25fps and work them into the XDCAM project sequence I've already started? Or will that create serious workflow issues for me? I don't have time to go back and re-xcode every clip (almost 100 GBs) to Pro Res before I show the client a rough edit.
Also, if it is better to just take the hit on time and re-xcode every clip to Pro Res, would I be able to easily reconnect all media to the newly coded ProRes files? Or would I lose all that work in the sequence?
Thanks again for the info!

Using Cinema Tools in three Macs

Is it possible to use Cinema Tools in three Macs (two laptops, one tower) to distribute the workflow, specially connecting the clips in Cinema Tools, reversing the clips to 23,98, importing the reversed clips in Final Cut, create the sublips, synchronize and merged them so then get this info to the Final Cut Project in the tower so the editor could work with what he really needs and finally export the EDL to the lab?
Thanks a lot

Finally We end up working on two macs and hoping that everything will work OK for the Lab

Cinema Tools doesn't recognize pulldown cadence on 24p DVCPRO 50

Hi everyone, I'm hoping someone can give me a couple suggestions on this...
I've been capturing 24p material for a documentary from different sources and with different pulldown cadences: DV @ 24p and 24p Advanced, and DVCPRO 50 @ 24p.
The extra frames from the two DV types get removed properly, but not from the DVCPRO 50. I take a clip into Cinema Tools and hit 'Rev Telecine..' (Automated so no options to choose from) and it gives me a 23.98 clip with the what should be the C frame interlaced. (A B C/D D)
It looks like CT is removing 2:3:3:2 'advanced' pulldown and not the normal 2:3:2:3, like it's reading the metadata in the clip wrong. Does anyone know a way to manually set the type of pulldown--either in Cinema Tools or within the metadata of the clip itself?
Thanks in advance,
Will
Dual 2.7 GHz G5, 4.5 GB RAM Mac OS X (10.4.2) FCP 5.03, Cinema Tools 3.03

I didn't know therre was an Automated way either until working on this project, and maybe it's a new setting in Cinema Tools 3. The manual says that CT will recognize the pulldown on the clip automatically when it was shot in a 24p video camera, that this information gets embedded in the clip. The dialog box it gives you for the automatic reverse telecine has no options at all, and all my clips started on an A frame for the possibility of doing all as a batch.
I may have found what happened, (although not how to fix it). My capture setting had Remove Advanced Pulldown checked, and the tapes were recorded with regular pulldown. In my experience with DV footage this has never mattered, it would remove it if it could and if not leave the clip alone.
It looks like there's a bug somewhere in the DVCPRO 50 capture process--that the clip is has the 24p Advanced markers embedded even though it is regular 24p, and so Cinema Tools treats it improperly and removes the wrong frames:
24p Advanced (2:3:3:2) A B B/C C D 29.97 Footage
24p (2:3:2:3) A B C/B C/D D
I I 0 I I (CT removing 2:3:3:2 Pulldown)
24p Advanced A B C D
24p *my result* A B C/D D 23.98 Footage
Has anyone else encountered this bug? Any work arounds known?
Thanks,
Will

Problems with pulldown In Cinema Tools

I am attempting a pulldown on some footage shot at 24pA on the Sony V1U (which I was told on this forum was not real 24p and therefore did not require a pulldown but found out from Sony that it is) and captured at 29.97. Looking at the Quicktime file before the pulldown, every 3 frames are clear followed by 2 blurry ones (which I understand to be blurry due to being interlaced.) After the pulldown in Cinema Tools, 1 frame is clear and 3 are blurry. This gives the footage a "stuttered" or "jittery" look when viewed on an NTSC monitor. If I am editing this video with 29.97 video and my final export is NTSC, what is the best gameplan for dealing with the pulldown issue? To pulldown or not to pulldown? That is the question.

If you're not getting a clean pulldown removal, I wouldn't bother. The only reason to edit at 24 in standard def is if you're trying to author a 24fps DVD (which allows you to get better quality at a lower bitrate).
I don't have any experience with removing pulldown from material shot with this camera. I have removed pulldown from a film to tape transfer. I simply kept trying the different options available in cinema tools til I got a clean 24fps (actually 23.986) quicktime.
Message was edited by: Michael Grenadier

Cinema Tools Memory Error

Hello Final Cut Gurus!
Okay, so I am using Cinema Tools 3 to reverse telecine a bunch of clips. I am encountering a random error. "There is not enough memory to perform this operation." This error is coming up after the reverse has been running for awhile (say, once the progress bar reaches the middle point).
I have read several posts in regards to situations with file size, and Apple recommends files under 9GB. I only have one clip that is over 9GB, and I get a different error, "This is file is too large for reverse telecine." Okay, understandable. However, what is up with the other error? I can reverse a clip that is 4GB and then a second later I can't reverse 1GB clip because of a "memory" error.
I am doing this on the company's older, revamped G4; 1GHz Processor and 1.75GB RAM. Shouldn't this be enough memory? Would I be better off taking the footage home to my Dual 1GHz G4 with 512MB? Has anyone ever encountered this?
Thanks In Advance!
-The Boards Problem Child-
(AKA Athen)

I'm running into the same problem... my clip is 3.6 GB, running Cinema Tools 3.0.3, on a 1.8 Ghz G5 with 2.5 GB of RAM. I don't even understand how there can be a "not enough memory" error - can't it just use virtual memory?
Has anybody come up with a solution for this?
-Gabriel

Removing pulldown... cinema tools vs compressor vs ???

I have some footage shot at 24p on my canon hf 10. I need to remove pulldown. I saw this artice here
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US):
now, which is a better method, to remove the pulldown, cinema tools or compressor, or even, another third party app does it better? Compressor and Cinema tools are 2 different programs, so they must have 2 different ways of doing things, and or results.
with compressor I have created a setting and a droplet on my desktop.
but I am interested in what the article says
*This method requires that you determine the cadence pattern for each clip.*
*In Final Cut Pro, choose the Easy Setup named "Apple Intermediate Codec, 29.97, HDV-Apple Intermediate Codec 1080i60".*
*Capture your clips.*
*Open each clip in Cinema Tools and manually reverse telecine each clip.*
how do I determine the Candence for EACH CLIP? also, if I shoot at 30p, do I also need to remove pulldown, or is this just for 24p?

piff aroni wrote:
I have some footage shot at 24p on my canon hf 10. I need to remove pulldown. I saw this artice here
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US
Zak Ray wrote:
Not sure why the article is recommending using AIC-- as I see it, your options are 1) capture native HDV and transcode to ProRes + reverse telecine in Compressor, or 2) capture ProRes and reverse telecine in Cinema Tools.
The best way to figure it out is probably to just run a test.
Am in a very similar situation to Piff, and as Zak suggests am about to do some tests.
Meantime though, would be interested to hear from anyone with experience in this particular area, especially since the Knowledge Base article quoted above is a bit confusing on two fronts:
1) It refers to the Canon HV20, which shoots HDV, whereas the camera referenced by the original poster, the Canon HF10 -- assuming it's the same Canon HF10 I've been using -- shoots AVCHD files on SDHC cards (and/or its internal memory);
2) As Zak points out, it's surprising that there's no mention of ProRes, just AIC. The article says it was last modified July, 2008 -- was that pre-ProRes?
In any case, I'll try to post my results as soon as I can run my own Compressor vs. Cinema Tools tests -- but in the meantime would appreciate hearing any insights from those who've already been down that road, especially in regards to best practices for removing the pulldown added by the Canon HF10 when shooting "24p" (which as a colleague recently pointed out, should actually be called "24f", as in "24fake" -- since it's really just 29.97 interlaced in disguise).
Thanks,
John Bertram
Toronto

Video Rate Changes from Cinema Tools to Final Cut

I have a problem that exists on serveral levels. Hopefully I can explain:
1. I directed a concert shoot with eight cameras. All cameras were Panasonic DVX100A configured for 24p Advanced except one, which was a Panasonic SDX900 configured for 24p (which I later discovered was laid down with a 3:2 pulldown instead of a 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown like the DVX100A cameras).
2. It was planned from the beginning to use the multiclip feature in FCP to edit the footage.
3. The tapes from each camera were captured from beginning to end—about an hour each tape, four tapes per camera—at full resolution, the pulldown was removed, and the clips were then recompressed to Photo JPEG EXCEPT the tapes from the SDX900.
4. When I finally figured out that the footage from the SDX900 used a 3:2 pulldown, I opened the captured clips in Cinema Tools and attempted to remove the pulldown. The problem I ran into there was that CT can't handle files larger than 9 GB. Each captured clip (four of them—one for each tape) ranged between 10 and 13 GB.
5. My solution to this was to open each clip in QuickTime Pro and split the clip in half, open each half in CT and remove the pulldown on the smaller files, then open the smaller halves in QT again and join them back together into a single clip.
6. When I open the new master clips in Cinema Tools and analyze them, the video/frame rate is 23.98 as expected. BUT, when I import the clips into Final Cut Pro, the video/frame rate is 29.97 and I can't understand why. If I try to do a pulldown removal (again) from FCP, it doesn't work—I get an error that it can't find a clip with a pulldown to remove (duh!).
Is this a bug, and is there any way to fix this and make it work? I need to make all of the assets available for my class at school.

I have a problem that exists on serveral levels. Hopefully I can explain:
1. I directed a concert shoot with eight cameras. All cameras were Panasonic DVX100A configured for 24p Advanced except one, which was a Panasonic SDX900 configured for 24p (which I later discovered was laid down with a 3:2 pulldown instead of a 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown like the DVX100A cameras).
2. It was planned from the beginning to use the multiclip feature in FCP to edit the footage.
3. The tapes from each camera were captured from beginning to end—about an hour each tape, four tapes per camera—at full resolution, the pulldown was removed, and the clips were then recompressed to Photo JPEG EXCEPT the tapes from the SDX900.
4. When I finally figured out that the footage from the SDX900 used a 3:2 pulldown, I opened the captured clips in Cinema Tools and attempted to remove the pulldown. The problem I ran into there was that CT can't handle files larger than 9 GB. Each captured clip (four of them—one for each tape) ranged between 10 and 13 GB.
5. My solution to this was to open each clip in QuickTime Pro and split the clip in half, open each half in CT and remove the pulldown on the smaller files, then open the smaller halves in QT again and join them back together into a single clip.
6. When I open the new master clips in Cinema Tools and analyze them, the video/frame rate is 23.98 as expected. BUT, when I import the clips into Final Cut Pro, the video/frame rate is 29.97 and I can't understand why. If I try to do a pulldown removal (again) from FCP, it doesn't work—I get an error that it can't find a clip with a pulldown to remove (duh!).
Is this a bug, and is there any way to fix this and make it work? I need to make all of the assets available for my class at school.

Cinema tools workflow

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