Color Shift Happening When Exporting - Bug in Acrobat Export?

Hi, we are using InDesign CS3 and trying to output a file to send to a printer. We are desiring to have all colors converted to the printer's CMYK color space upon exporting (they sent us their ICC profile).
But we are getting a bizarre bug that I cannot figure out. It seems like it's actually a software bug, not an issue with settings. I'll try to describe the issue here:
Upon using 'Convert to Destination (Preserver Numbers or Not)' in the PDF export dialog in InDesign (using PDF/X-4 setting), using the 'Document CMYK' profile, there is a shift in color for 1 particular element. We have a grayscale image of a bunch of dots (black dots on solid white background) that is placed in a frame in InDesign. This image is 'colorized' in InDesign by setting an image color and a frame color (the image color appears as the 'foreground' and the frame color is the 'background'). We've been doing this all the way back to the Quark days (many years). But if the 'background/frame' color is a combination of C+M+Y (with no black), the Magenta and Yellow values are shifted to the Yellow and Black channels (for example - 52c, 5m, 10y, 0k becomes 52c, 0m, 5y, 10k).
I have never run into this before, and we've run this job with the same element many times now over the last couple years. But I have always used 'No Color Conversion' in my PDFs in the past. So it has something to do with the 'conversion'.
So far I've tried:
- Creating new document with just the single element, also created from scratch. So it's not an error in the file.
- Starting with different profiles (to make sure the profile wasn't corrupt).
- Choosing 'Preserve Numbers' or not when outputting PDF.
- All sorts of color combinations. It also appears that if there is black in the color, this value gets shifted to the magenta channel, then the magenta & yellow bump down.
- Checked the grayscale image to make sure it was flat, and using pure black & white colors. It is.
I've also tried printing to Distiller (we have Acrobat 8 Pro), but the settings are a lot different here so I'm not sure if I set it up properly. I made a duplicate of the default PDFX3 2002 profile, then edited the color settings to 'Convert Everything to CMYK' and set our printer's profile as the CMYK Color Space. But images are converted to 'DeviceCMYK' and not the profile I put.
- ANYBODY have any ideas or even know where I would start???
THANKS. This job needs to go out, but I'm also trying to get a solid workflow down for the future.

Looks like the issue in the CM thread.
I'm trying to replicate the issue but haven't done it yet. Still grasping at straws
1. Did the ID doc ever undergo Convert to Profile?
2. In Swatch Panel do "Add unnamed colors". Make sure the grayscale is colored with swatches, not colors created in the Color Picker
3. Do the color values in the swatches have crazy decimal values? Is the color mode of the swatches CMYK?
4. What format are the grayscale links - TIFF or PSD?
5. Make certain they are links, not embedded (I'm sure they are links though)
6. The colorization - are there tints applied to the object colors, or are they 100%?

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Harm Millaard wrote:
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Harm Millaard wrote:
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Message was edited by: Michael Grenadier

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Problem continues (2)...
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You're welcome!
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How do I prevent the Darker Shade Box (color shift) around Vector Objects when Printing

Sorry in advance for the novelette. I am absolutely mystified and frustrated and would love some help! I've been working on this problem for about 30 hours over the last 4 days to figure out what the heck is happening and cannot find an answer through various forms of research.
Basically, when I print a JPEG, I am getting this area (a box) of darker shaded coloring around my heart and love text. I've tested it a million different ways and am at a loss as to what the problem is ... is it an application problem, a color profile problem between my applications and printer, an improper way that I saved my file, etc.
Here is a photo I took of the image printed out (so it is slightly skewed from camera distortion):
The details:
(1) I create graphic art and sell it online. I save all of my printable art as JPEG files because of my customer base (diy hobbyists that print on their home printers without much knowledge base nor graphic design software).
(2) I use both Adobe Illustrator (AI) and Photoshop Elements 11 (PSE11) to design and save my artwork.
(3) I insert JPEG images into Microsoft Word 2003 documents to "test print" since most of my customers use home printers to print. Since most people have this basic software, it is a good gauge of the kind of print out they might get using the same or similar software.
(4) My PSE11 color profile setting is the default sRGB. I have test printed many times and I get the truest colors with this color profile.
(5) My AI color settings are normally also an sRGB color mode, but on occasion, I use a CMYK color mode if I am creating a larger document that I know the customer will need to take to a professional printer to print out.
(6) I do my home printing (for proofs) on an Epson Stylus Photo 1400 (which has the 6 color ink cartridges).
(7) Until this printing problem occurred on this test print out, I always used the "photo enhance" option when I designate settings for my printer via the Microsoft Word documents.
IMPORTANT: This is when I have the color shift?? or color rendering issues?? and it is the only time. If I use the regular ICM/ICC color profile of sRGB, the printing issue doesn't occur. Instead, I have a solid color background instead of this one with the strips of lighter color on the top and bottom. However, I can't control how the customer prints, so I need to feel confident that whatever color profile setting they use, they will not run into this problem. I even test printed the documents over at FedEx and the darker box/color shift did not occur.
(8) The document in question only has 3 sets of objects: the heart, the solid colored rectangle colored background and the text. All 3 objects are vectors, they are at 100% opacity and there are no "special effects" applied.
(9) The image was entirely created in AI this time and exported as a maximum quality JPEG file, although you will see below that I tried many ways to create and save the file so that I didn't have the color band borders on top/bottom.
(10) I regularly use AI for part of my art, then I drag it to my PSE11 open document and it becomes a Vector Object (it cannot by copying/pasting into a PSE11 document). I also regularly export AI images as PNG files, then insert them into an open PSE11 document. This printing issue has not occurred until recently. Here is an example of a very complex AI image I created, then inserted into PSE11 just to add the background (the Teddy Bear and books are AI vector objects) that were exported as PNG files then inserted into PSE11 to integrate with the background image - I test printed with Photo Enhance and had no printing issues:
So, from the research I have done, it looks like it is a color rendering or color space issue with conflicting color profiles in the same document. I checked my color profile settings and both sRGB and CMYK were set to embed ICC color profiles.
I tried changing AI settings to Preserve Numbers (ignore linked profiles) for CMYK, but that didn't work.
I also checked and made sure that not only the document setup showed the sRGB color profile, but that all the objects within the document also were converted to sRGB as well for consistency. That didn't work.
I tried converting the document to CMYK along with the vector objects. That didn't work.
I tried saving the heart image as a PNG file alone, the "love" text as a PNG file alone, both the heart and text together as a PNG files alone. Once saved as PNG files, I inserted them into an open empty PSE11 document - as I normally do. I then added the background color I wanted. That didn't work - the print still showed the color changes.
I tried dragging each vector object separately and even as a group and got the same color change issue when printing.
I tried "expanding" and "outlining" the text before exporting as JPEG, before exporting as a PNG and before dragging as a vector object into PSE11. Expanding the text did not help the situation.
I tried exporting as Adobe PDF, then opening in PSE11, then resaving as JPEG. That didn't work.
I tried flattening transparency (even though there is no transparency in the AI file). That didn't work.
I tried rasterizing the image. That didn't work.
Thinking that the file might be corrupt, I started from scratch and redesigned the same heart and love text. Unfortunately, I had the same problem as before. At this point, my AI started becoming buggy and would not open new files. It happened repeatedly and I decided it was best to uninstall and reinstall AI (and maybe that would fix the problem).
I created just the heart in AI, then inserted it into an open PSE11 document (both after exporting as PNG and also by dragging as Vector Object from AI). It seemed to work. I could both drag the vector into PSE11 from AI and export from AI as a PNG, then insert into open PSE11 document with a background color - and it printed a solid background.
So, I thought that reinstalling and setting back to defaults worked. But, then I added the love text around the heart and tried exporting as JPEG files and the same problem continued to recur. Whether I dragged as a Vector object into PSE11 (the heart object and love text separately and also another time with the vector objects dragged as a group) or saved them as PNG files and inserted into PSE11 - I got the different shades of color on what should be a solid background. I even tried saving the PSE11 as a PSD file first, then resaving as JPEG and I tried saving as PNG and printing and this didn't help solve the problem.
I really think it is some color conflict issue but I can't figure it out. I am definitely not very knowledgeable about color profiles and how to sync all my devices, however, as I mentioned, this was not an issue until recently (and I think??? I recall changing the CMYK setting from Preserve Numbers to embed color profile a month or so ago - however, it should have been solved when AI went back to its defaults upon reinstall).
The reason I believe it is a color rendering/color space issue is because I could see the color output when I saved the JPEG with CMYK color profile versus sRGB color profile and the sRGB colors were much richer, not surprisingly. The top and bottom colors matched the sRGB printout and the middle darker box section matched the CMYK printout.
I am sure it is something fundamental or simple and I am completely overlooking it. I wish it were just a transparency issue, because people know how to fix or do workarounds for it. But, there are no vector objects with any transparency ...
If I missed some detail, I apologize. Any help would be a dream come true at this point! lol
Thank you!

Okay, I got motivated to try again. From doing a bit more research on troubleshooting AI printing problems, the Adobe article talks about print drivers. It was advised to uninstall and reinstall the print driver if the printing issue persists. So, I did. Unfortunately, I still had the same result after reinstalling and trying a test print! Ugh.
So, as Jacob said upfront, I seem to have an overactive print driver that is trying too hard (and it is a non-postscript printer which I realize is part of the problem).
There are so many variables in my situation as to how I create art and save/export art. I sometimes work solely in AI, sometimes solely in PSE and sometimes I use both programs to create. Consequently, I will:
(1) export directly from AI as JPEG if I am not adding PSE11 artwork.
(2) export directly from AI as PNG if I plan on inserting that image into PSE11 to add to artwork I have created in PSE11.
(3) drag vector objects as a Smart Objects directly from AI to PSE11 to add to artwork I am creating in PSE11 if I know I will playing with the vector object and resizing in PSE11.
So, I did a test print using scenario 2, where I inserted the heart and love text PNG (AI created vector object) into an old PSE11 document. This old document already had a vector object from AI with a solid background and I knew it printed correctly. So, after inserting this new PNG from AI into this old document, it printed correctly using the photo enhance mode.
However, I haven't had a chance to actually create new art in the older AI files (that I know print properly), resave as something else and try another test print (either by exporting as JPEG and printing in Word or by exporting as PNG file and inserting into PSE11 document, then saving as JPEG and printing in Word).
After testing the different possibilities of ICM settings within my printer, I found that the JPEG images printed out with the truest colors and best quality if I simply selected "no color management" from the printer. Shocker, huh? lol
MY SOLUTION: So, what I think I will simply do is add an instruction sheet with the printables I sell, explaining that the color profile setting should never be handled by the printer so make sure to turn off color management by printer (and if they feel they must use the printer for color management, make sure the setting is sRGB since I embed that color profile in my JPEG's).
Edited to add: Since my issue was never about how I could print a successful image (I knew I could simply change the color profile settings), but rather about how to make sure that customers would get consistent and high quality print outputs of my digital images, this seems like the best approach.
I don't think I will every really know exactly why I am now getting color shifts in the "photo enhance" mode when I did not have this problem a couple months ago - applying the same methods of creating artwork. I was concerned that I was saving/exporting using incorrect or mismatched color settings or something of that nature. However, since I went through the process of making my color spaces the same for everything, and I still have issue, clearly that is not the culprit. The only thing I can do to solve the problem and it is a straightforward solution anyway -> is to educate the buyer on how to print successfully (don't use photo enhance! ha ha).
Thanks again to everyone who chimed in and offered advice!

Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG

Hi....
In AfterEffects when choosing an output module and that module be ProRes or 10 Bit Uncompressed,
when trying to color manage the file, there is a fine line called
'This Codec Does Not Support Output Profile'
You can find it int he Color Management Pane of the output module....
Funny thing is - That Profile Embedding IS support by:#
Apple's Compressor and THE CODEC 4444 AND UnCompressed
Episodes Encoder
See following Screen Shots:
First one from Apple's Compressor...
Look at that little beautiful Color Option... Adobe did you MISS that one, perhaps...
You must have - because your APPS are NOT including that when encoding or should I say
butchering movie files....
Here adobes famous but wrong dialog!!!!
And in this next screen shot you can easily see that adobe just strips the color profile out of the file...
AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS A COLOR SHIFT...........
left image = Apple's Compressor Encoding (Colors match of course) - Right Adobe's BRUTAL encoding (Colors WONT match...)
Now, in after effects you wont notice the shift. But ALL mac and PC users using quicktime to watch YOUR movies
are going to be looking at a movie with a different look than you thought it WOULD be... Courtesy of adobe ;-)
Jokes aside, Adobe.... It seems as if this one is on you to fix... Apple's Compressor has NO problems. And other encoders are also preserving those values.
Now... Let us assume that I encode in compressor... Looks are matching 100% that of the original source. All it takes to mess that up is ONE
roundtrip to after effects, premiere pro or Media Encoder. That is if I wanna maintain my initial choice of transcodec - in my case 4444 or 10bit Uncomp.
I could of course export to animation and then use compressor AGAIN to transcode to my format of choice... But in the long run I think that will become tedious.
Perhaps you could assign a few engineers on this one and in the future spend MORE time on living up to the name PRO(The most misused word in the software business) instead of wasting time generating new Application icons for your apps....
Thanks for reading and for a PROMPT and near-future BUG FIX

Mylenium wrote:
It's not really "embedding" anything, it merely sets the QT color space flags which have been there forever, but are mostly unused. Specific to ProRes it also toggles different internal optimizations in the encoding. That's also documented somewhere on the QT developer pages. I'm not sure I share your views otherwise. The point really is, that Apple developed ProRes just as much as a closed workflow within their products as Avid did with their CoDecs. Therefore the widespread use of the CoDecs is merely a byproduct of the use of the products, but not per se an intended workflow outside of those and, which is the more important part, also not explicable as a causal circumstance of the quality. If I may be so bold: What you are saying sounds like everyone would be using the Animation CoDec because it is so good, when the simple fact is that there are no decent free cross-platform alternatives and people are willing to accept limitations because of that. Don't get me wrong, ProRes is well designed and pretty robust, but the world doesn't come to an end without it and outside the Mac world it is difficult to deal with. Hell, it's even difficult to deal with between different versions of FCP occasionally...
Mylenium
I have been testing codecs for a long long looooooong time. My criterion(s) are:
1) Image Quality and that through multiple encoding generations and color grading
THEEEN
a looooong way down the road
2) Performance
BTW - I find that working with files less compressed and thus HUGE is much better. Hard drives are so cheap that one can build himself an 8 Disk RAID0 and that takes care of everything. In PPRO I can cut real time in FulRes with an uncompressed codec with the processors maxing at 3% while the H264 editing sequence will stutter like a drunken wasp and maxing the CPUs at 63%.... Go figure...
ProRes 4444's impeccable imageQuality:performance ratio, is unbeaten.
Especially on H264 material like that of the Canon5D. You might say if the source is 4:2:0 why bother upping it to 4444... Well in theory perhaps
it is overkill. But rather than reading in theoretical white papers I conduct my own tests. And the end results are (REALITY) and way different from what theory states. TO anyone reading this. DONT believe ANYTHING you read about codec nor what I am saying.... DO YOUR OWN TESTING and judge for yourself. Problem is that you have to do 100's and 100's of transcodings with ONE source to various destinations with lost of grading and transcoding generation. THEN you have to keep track of your tests and THEN compare them. It takes WEEKs. But it is well worth while it. In my case... I start with a Canon5DMKII H264 movies. Transcode it to PRORES4444 then I do LOTS of compositing and re-encoding then lots of color grading etc etc etc. Then I export back to H264 - and the end result is STUNNING has NO artifacts and is adorable to look at. Not so with at least 6 other codecs claiming to be top-notch....
Sure Mylenium, the world would NOT end with PR4444 not in it... BUT the WORLD has ALREADY decided that it WANTED ProRes4444 in it. It is growing and that every day..........
Had the codec not been so darn excellent - it would NOT have been used. Period.

[FIX] Darker prints and color shifts when printing from Lightroom 2

Hi,
The problem :
When printing RAW or TIFF files from LR2, you get a printer output that
is much darker than it should be and that presents various color shifts.
I'm using an Epson Stylus Pro 3800 with the latest Windows driver
(6.50 - which is rather old by the way). The workaround described below
works for me under Windows XP SP3. It should also probably work with
other systems/printers/drivers. Use at your own (minor) risk.
The "official" procedure for printing from LR is as follows:
1. Do not let the printer manage colors and select "Other..." from the
profile dropdown list and select the ICC/ICM paper/printer profile that
you want to use.
2. Click on Print... in LR which opens the Print Settings dialog.
3. Select the options you need and the paper you're using.
4. **Disable the color management from the driver's side** (in Epson's
drivers, "Mode | Custom | No Color Adjustments").
5. Print
Unfortunately, **this doesn't work** for many of us and this produces a
print that is dark and has color shifts as mentioned above. Note that
the same image prints correctly from QImage or Photoshop CS3 (that is,
the printer output corresponds to what you see on your calibrated
display).
Apparently, although color management has been (allegedly) disabled in
the driver, there's something wrong between LR and the driver which
makes that *both* LR and the driver are still trying to manage colors.
In other words, the "No Color Adjustements" option of the driver doesn't
seem to work with LR.
The workaround (found after hours of hair pulling and paper and
expensive ink wasting):
In step #4,
1. Instead of selecting "No Color Adjustments", set Mode to "Custom |
ICM
2. Click Advanced...
3. Check "Show all profiles".
4. Select Driver ICM (Advanced)"
5. Set **both** the "Input profile" and the "Printer profile" fields to
the very same profile that you specified in LR.
That is, if you specified Pro38 PGPP (Premium Glossy Photo Paper) in LR,
then also select Pro38 PGPP in both "Input Profile" and "Printer
Profile". This has actually the same effect has disabling color
management in the driver (what "No Color Adjustements" should normally
take care of).
That's it. When printing, you'll get exactly the same color results as
when printing from QImage or Photoshop. No more dark prints. No more
color shifts.
One might think that the bug is in the Epson driver but in that case,
QImage would have the very same problem. So I tend to think that the bug
is on the Lightroom side.
Note: Although Photoshop CS3 produces a correct printer output, it
demonstrates the same problem as LR when using the "Match Print Color"
option for soft proofing. But in that case, only the preview colors are
wrong. The printer output is ok. Which also tends to demonstrate that
Adobe has the problem, not Epson. Or maybe both... :-) .
Don't ask me why some users have the problem and other don't.
Hope this helps.
Patrick Philippot
MainSoft Consulting Services
www.mainsoft.fr

A sincere thank you for your reply, Michael. Sorry about the "it just doesn't make sense" shortcut. I have been trying to solve this issue since LR 1.1, spending dozens of hours on different trials and digesting everything written on this forum and the B9180 forum about color management and double profiling. My shortcut was a summation of my experience (and my frustration) but doesn't really advance the conversation. Here are some data that should be more useful in diagnosing the problem.
I am running Windows XP SP2. I calibrate my monitor monthly with the Spyder. The reason I suspect this may be an issue of double profiling is because the results (moderately strong magenta overlay plus an increase in contrast) match what more knowledgeable people than I on this forum describe when double profiling occurs. Perhaps I shouldn't presume it is double profiling, and follow Patrick Philippot's lead in naming the problem "color shifts." Patrick does refer in post #2 of this thread, however, to obvious double profiling.
I certainly do have a successful and consistent print method. With PS CS3, and either my Epson 1280 or my HP B9180, the output is almost always dead on. Here is how I do it. In PS from the print dialog box, under color handling I always choose "Photoshop manages colors." Then under printer profile I select the profile designated by the manufacturer for a particular paper/printer combination. Then in the printer driver I disable printer control of color. With the Epson I check the box "Off (No Color Adjustment)." With the B9180 I choose the option "Application Managed Colors." While I sometimes may tweak the final output, these procedures have served me well with PS for several years.
Contrasted with my positive PS experience, my experience with LR printing has been inconsistent. I regret having to be so imprecise but truly sometimes LR produces accurate results that match the calibrated monitor, but most of the time it does not. I use standard procedures with LR that parallel the PS ones described above. In LR's printing panel, under color management, I specify the correct profile, just as I did for PS. Then in the printer driver I use the same procedures I use with PS. Most of the time the prints have the magenta overlay and too much contrast.
BTW, the inconsistent LR printing only takes place with my HP B9180. I have never had any problem with off-color LR prints with my Epson 1280. Again, I emphasize that I have standard procedures that always work with PS (no matter which printer) and LR (but only with the Epson).
Unfortunately the LR printing problems are intermittent. Some of the time (perhaps 20%) LR produces fine prints in the B9180, indistinguishable from PS prints. When LR is printing well, it will continue to print fine until "something happens" and the output shows the color shift. This means I do not get a random sequence of good-bad-good-bad prints, but rather good-good-x factor-bad-bad-bad. Ths problem is that I do not know what this "x factor" is. Once, when LR was giving me accurate output, I simply changed the default printer (Control Panel-Printers and Faxes) from the B9180 to my Samsung 1430 laser; immediately afterwards the LR output colors shifted. Did LR react to this change in default printers? Another time I had good LR printing success with version 1.2 but ran into the problems described above when I upgraded to version 1.3.
Sorry for the long post. I am hoping that someone will see something that I am missing and provide a hint. I think, though, that Patrick is correct when he states, "I tend to think that the problem is with LR. After all, similar issues (obvious double profiling) are observed only in LR but with various printers."

Color Shift Happening When Exporting - Bug in Acrobat Export?

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