Confused about White Balance slider in Lightroom.

Color temperature is expressed in Kelvin. A higher number equates to a colder tone and vice versa. But in Lightroom, the far left of the slider (coldest) is the lowest number and the far right (warmest) is the highest. For instance, Daylight is around 5600K and Tungsten is 3200K which would mean that Tungsten is warmer. But if I change the white balance in Lightroom from Daylight to Tungsten, it gets colder. So is the White Balance slider reversed? I'm so confused!

Yep, you're confused.
The numbers on the slider are the temperature of the light that lightroom is compensating for. For instance, 3200K light is too warm, so the slider makes the picture colder to compensate.
Hal

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White balance weirdness with Lightroom 2?

I'm using a Nikon D700, so I can't go back to Lightroom 1.4.1, which doesn't include support for the D700 (or does it?). I also can't do a side-by-side comparison of 1.4.1 and 2, but I do get the impression that 2 produces some rather crazy results when I use the eye dropper tool to do a white balance.
For example, I've got a shot of my brother, his wife, their son, and my son walking hand-in-hand through a parking lot. It's a lousy photo, so be thankful that I can't post it here. I try to do a white balance on my sister-in-law's shirt, which should be close to white, and I get a color temperature of 18,000 (and a tint of -5). If I do it on my brother's roughly white socks, I get a color temperature of 25,000! I can't remember ever having seen numbers that high with earlier versions of Lightroom. Other places in the photo (my brother's blackish backpack, my son's reasonably white shoes, etc.) get me color temperature values between 8000 and 13,000. In all cases, the adjusted photo looks way too yellow to me.
I realize that it's hard to diagnose my problem just from reading a description of it, but does anybody have any advice for me? I can't turn back the hands of time and do gray card reference shots, but I feel like I'm spending much more time trying to find a decent white balance than I ever did with 1.x, and with some photos I end up just throwing in the towel.
Technical details:
Lightroom 2 (Camera Raw 4.5) on a 20-inch PowerPC iMac, running OS 10.4

Thanks to all three of you for your helpful, speedy replies.
Eric, I used yousendit to send you a NEF file that's giving me trouble. I had the camera's white balance set to daylight when I took it, and they were walking through a mixture of sunlight and shade late in the afternoon, so obviously the white balance is not consistent throughout the photo, but as I noted in my original post, I can't understand why using the eye dropper tool in Lightroom 2 gives me such enormous numbers and such a yellow cast.
John, with that same shot I tried hitting "WB: Auto" in the Develop module, and the result was much more natural-looking than anything I could come up with on my own using the eye dropper. I then went back to other shots that had been problematic and found the same thing: "Auto" did a better job than I could. On the one hand, it's nice to know that such a powerful tool is available; on the other hand, it's a bit depressing to think that my best efforts at white balancing are still incompetent.
What's more, I still think that white balance in Lightroom 2 is behaving quite differently from what I was used to in Lightroom 1.x. Do I just have to try to become comfortable with the idea of ceding control of white balance to "WB: Auto"?

Lightroom White Balance Selector

Why are the RGB numbers in the Lightroom White Balance Selector different than the RGB numbers in Photoshop's Info palette?
If you convert the image in Photoshop to 32bit the RGB numbers are the same as the White Balance Selector in Lightroom, is Lightroom's WB Selector reading 32bit RGB values?

>Since prophotoRGB has a 1.8 gamma and prophoto has a 1.8 gamma, the numbers will be different, even if you do the math (divide by 2.56 for the 8-bit display).
Actually, while the histogram and samples are in "Melissa RGB" (so named by Mark Hamburg in tribute to Melissa Gual, the LR QE) in fact, the processing pipeline is using a linear gamma version of ProPhoto RGB. All of which means that the numbers shown in Lightroom really don't bear any relationship to any usable normal color spaces as you would have in Photoshop with a given working space.
The net result is that Lightroom reads out in %s instead of an arbitrary color space. Since, in Lightroom in Develop, the image isn't yet in a defined color space, it would be useless to actually give you readouts in a color spacewhich is what Photoshop can do (since the image is in a defined color space).
So, Lightroom and Photoshop are using different scales...

Lens Profile Tool Addition – White Balance Offset Correction

I have noticed that my Canon 17-40mm and 70-200mm F4 IS lenses have virtually identical color temperature and can use the same white balance setting. My Sigma 50mm F2.8 Macro lens is another story, requiring almost 200K and +15 change to White Balance sliders. I am sure there are cases where Canon’s lenses will differ more widely and exhibit a similar degree of white balance differences, not to mention use of UV or 1B protection filters. An 85mm F1.2 lens using “rare earth” low dispersion glass, will have a warmer color temperature than a lens using more common glass elements.
I use the X-Rite ColorChecker Passport to create custom profiles for each of my camera bodies. I typically make separate correction presets for Daylight, Cloudy, and Tungsten (2700K). This requires changing the LR White Balance sliders to obtain “neutral gray in the ColorChecker image files shot in each of above described lighting conditions. It does not appear necessary to create a separate ColorChecker camera profile for each lens, just correction to the LR white balance slider settings.
I did some measurements of change in camera profile for Sunny Daylight (~5,500K), Cloudy (8,000K+), and Tungsten (~2,900K) lighting. There was no measurable change in rendering of the ColorChecker Passport images for the extreme Sunny to Cloudy conditions, and only very slight changewhen comparing the Tungsten profile. This was done by loading a ColorChecker Passport image file and applying alternate profiles:
EXAMPLE:
Open a DaylightColorChecker Passport image file in LR, apply Cloudy Camera Profile, and adjust White Balance for the gray scale patches using the Eyedropper Tool. Then look at the 'Before' and 'After' images....you will see NO visual change to any of the color patches. I saw only a very slight change when doing this with the Daylight to Tungsten (artificial light source) comparison.
The relatively small change in color balance between lenses (~500K max.) should have no measurable or visible affect to the ColorChecker Passport created "Camera Profile." The ColorChecker Passport or any other "Camera Profile" creation tool is first and foremost correcting for differences in the camera's image sensor color rendering.
SUGGESTION:
Since this white balance difference is a factor of the lens, it would be very convenient to add another tool in Lightroom's and Camera Raw Lens Profile panel for “White Balance Offset.” This allows setup of LR defaults for one specific lens type, such as your most used lens. Then you use the new ‘Lens Profile’ located ‘White Balance Offset’ correction tool to adjust white balance for all of your other lenses. In addition, Adobe or camera manufacturers could also provide the 'White Balance Offset Correction' as a function of the lens spectral response deviation from linear. This would provide a "uniform method" of calculating and adding the White Balance correction to the 'Lens Profile.' Since this is a factor of the lens only, the “lens offset correction” can be used with ANY lens/camera body pairing, The current LR and Camera Raw White Balance settings are then only used for “Global” correction of lighting conditions, and NOT for lens differences.
This is a linear mathematical function,which should be extremely easy for Adobe to add the ‘White Balance Offset’ correction feature to LR’s and Camera Raw's Lens Profile GUI. Just like many other tools in LR that some don't use, you can choose to use it or not!

Interesting suggestion. Thanks. -Simon

Iso, Shutter Speed, Aperture, White balance for music videos or film?

Hello everyone. I just started making music videos. I just want some tips or can someone direct me to a good guide for music videos. I know the basics of iso, shutter speed, and aperture already. I read some guides and so far I know I gotta put my shutter at 1/50 or if i'm recording something at high speed, i increase it. is it so? Also, I always put my aperture at the lowest. I have a Canon T2i and Canon lenses 50 f/1.8 and kit lens. I always put my aperture at the lowest 3.5(kit lens) or 1.8. The tricky part is the ISO. I don't know where to put my ISO. I know the lowest ISO is good but sometimes the video looks dark. Do I fix this in video editing programs? Like should I always stay at ISO 100? What about white balance? I use Final Cut 7.
Also, what about during the day and night? Indoors? etc I also have a cheap LED lights.

your questions are about the very basics of photography.
I would consider to buy a book, which explains photography 'from the ground' ("... for dummies.." not meant as an offence!)
in short:
a scenery offers a defined amount of light.
Your cameras 'film' aka sensor, needs a defined amount of light to deliver a picture.
So, on recoprding, you have to control the amount of light, and the controls are:
aperture - opened or closed
shutter - shorter or longer
speed (ISO) - higher or lower.
Imagine the light as a stream of tiny balls, coming from your scenery: a bigger hole = aperture lets more balls into the cam. A shorter shutter speed reduces the amount of balls. And a higher ISO catches more balls than a lower. ..
Understanding that, you realize that those parameters are crosswise-related: an open aperture + a shorter shutter speed results in the same amount of light on the sensor as a closed aperture and a longer shutter speed.
If the amount of light is still too much, lower the sensitivity = ISO.
If the amount of light is too little, open the aperture, or use a longer shutter speed or raise the sensitivity.
When you set one or two parameters in this equation, you have to adjust the other ones: Video-makers start with the shutter speed, usually set to 1/2 of frame-rate = 1/50 - 1/60 - why? Because it allows a nice looking 'smear' aka motion-blur aka 'film look'.
Now, with a given speed, you can conrtol teh amount of light for the sensor only by aparture; and when you reach limits, by setting ISO.
When you understood this BY PRACTICING, you're next step is the concept of 'shallow focus'/depth of field. And when you understood this BY PRACTICING, you'll will understand the need of Neutral Densitity Filters for movie-makers...
But first things first: buy a book; read your cam's amnual; practice the settings and watch carefully the different results, diff. settings result.
... and it's really just about basics - independently of your device and/or your software.
None of the things mentioned above can be done or 'fixed' in post... (basically...)
happy movie making!

A dumb question about kelvin and white balance in Lightroom

I keep reading a high kelvin number is cooler and a low number is warmer, but in light room, in the develope module, the lower number ( 3500 ) is blue, and a higher number, (7000) is very yellow. What am I missing?

Lee is essentially correct with his analysis but incorrect with the details. The Kelvin colour temperature scale is between Yellow and Blue, not Red and Blue as stated.
There's a lot of confusion about this, with many digital photographers missing the significance of the difference between cyan and blue, magenta and red etc.
To be fair, the printing industry has added to the confusion by traditionally calling printing inks Blue, Red and Yellow when they really are cyan, magenta and yellow.
Even Adobe can get it wrong. In the initial Lightroom beta release, the temperature scale had the colours Cyan at one end and Yellow at the other. I suggested it be changed to Blue to make it correct and less confusing which thankfully was implemented in the next update.
Despite decades of working with colour both in the darkroom and with Photoshop, I too struggle with the counter-intuitive approach of the colour temperature reading in Lightroom.
Essentially, if you shoot in light that is too blue, then you need to add Yellow. So the Kelvin number displayed in Lightroom isn't the 'Mired' correction or the amount of Yellow added, but a readout of the scene's original colour temperature before the Yellow correction.
This can be really useful. I use several different branded flash units with various reflectors and attachments. I recently ran a test, shooting a Macbeth colour checker with all the different combinations.
I then used the White Balance Selector (dropper) on the neutral 5 patch and wrote down the resulting colour temperature.
From that I could work out what filter corrections I needed to use on each flash and reflector to produce consistent daylight balance.
Most flashes seem to be around 6000ºK but I had variation between 5200ºK & 6400ºK with the combinations.

The Lightroom Manual is Not Clear on Options for the White-Balance Tool

In the section "Working with image tone and color" the Lightroom manual states:
Specify a neutral area in the photo
1. In the Basic panel of the Develop module, click the White Balance Selector tool to select it, or press the W key.
2. Move the White Balance Selector into an area of the photo that should be a neutral light gray. Avoid spectral highlights or areas that are
100% white.
3. Set options in the toolbar as needed.
Sets the White Balance Selector tool to dismiss automatically after clicking only once in the photo.
Displays a close-up view and the RGB values of a sampling of pixels under the White Balance Selector.
Zooms the close-up view in the Loupe...."
Item 3 is unclear. I selected the white balance selector, and moved it to an area as instructed,
but I cannot find any toolbar with the options described.
How do I get to this mysterious toolbar?? Everyone seems to think its a simple thing, but I cannot find it and I am not able to set any of the options described!
While I am sure this is a simple thing, I think that the manual should be much more clear about this description; what is there now is very inadequate.

It should be directly underneath the image preview - press the T key if it's not there.

Lightroom 2 - Auto white balance - crash

I'm having intermittent problems while applying auto white balance on some CR2 files in Lightroom 2 running on OS X 10.5.4. When choosing Auto from the list of white balance options, LR waits for a second or two, doesn't update the history panel and the spinning beachball appears. CPU rises to about 100% and there's no other way than to force quit.
So far it happens with, say, one in 50 images (I've been working on approximately 100 images and with 2 this happened).
When I restart I can easily recreate the problem by going through the same routine.
The workaround is working on another image and then going back to the problematic one; then I can apply AWB without any problems.
I can save a (lengthy) hang reporter log file.

Thought I was doing pretty good with LR2, but unfortunately this problem has showed up on my Mac OS X 10.5.4 system. The stalls (i.e., beachball) are when developing CR2 images from a Canon 5D. I experience many occurrences of the problem when going through this folder of RAWs, perhaps 20-30% of the images. Today I thought I had found one that always fails, but turns out not to be the case, although it causes a failure over half the time it is accessed. Same symptoms as described in the above posts: Convert an image's white balance to auto, in either quick-develop or develop. Then when you access the image you get the spinning beachball forever, and have to force-quit. I've also stalled LR with this sequence: in QD, convert WB to auto, switch to develop module, undo the WB change in history by clicking the prior step... LR stalls. Basically I've seen all the same steps as described here, and more.
Also, just for fun I tried everyone's favorite troubleshooting step, i.e., trashing preferences. It made absolutely no difference. The first time I simply clicked on the troublesome image, LR got stuck.
Jao... interestingly, I never saw this problem in the beta in spite of developing many, many images in the beta. If it was known and not fixed, that's quite a concern.

Lightroom 4 and white balance tool

In Lightroom 4 i use the whtie balance tool and find point that give as high as 99% reading and it would work to set it as the reference point. Today i did the same thing and got a message that said Lightroom could not obtain white balance from that spot and to try again. i've never seen this before. even if i used a spot that was 100% reflective. It would just render colors off.
Today i did the same thing and a message came on the screen that Lightroom couldn't obtain white balance from that spot and i should try again. i was only able to obtain white balance if i used a spot that reflected no more than approx. 90%.
what has changed?
thank you

The White Balance Picker sample area in LR4 can now be adjusted using the 'Scale' slider, so yes it has changed from LR3:
http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/white_balance_eyedropper_tool_option
The readings you see in the LR Histogram in no way reflect the actual raw data values. The White Balance picker needs a sample area that has no raw data clipping in any channel (i.e.All four R,G, B, G2 channels 99% or less). I suspect the 99% area you are sampling has raw data clipping in one or more channels. If interested you can download RawDigger to examine the image file to confirm:
http://www.rawdigger.com/
I suggest choosing a sample area that is well below 99%, such as 85% to 95%.

Lightroom: Why does auto white balance no longer work after changing the camera calibration profile?

I'm using NEF raw files from Nikon.
Lets say for example I import a NEF file into Lightroom (v4) and click on 'auto' for white balance. The white balance in the image is adjusted correctly (somewhat). However, if I then change the camera profile (in the camera calibration section) from 'adobe standard' to 'camera standard' then the white balance in the image becomes very wrong. I then have to set the white balance back to 'as shot' and correct it manually instead.
Why would 'auto white balance' no longer work just because I change the profile from 'adobe standard' to 'camera standard'?
Any ideas?

Works as expected here...
Which Lr version and what OS??

Custom white balance from Canon 5D Mark 3 erased from RAW files when developed in Lightroom 4.2?

Hi Everybody!
Got a bit of a problem...I set custom white balance for a lot of my photos (I'm a nightclub photographer) as sometimes the colours are so saturated the image becomes unusable. Unfortunately in Lightroom 4 the photos import with the correct WB I have set but when I click on them to develop the settings are changed and the image looks completely awful. I try and adjust the image back to the way I have taken it but it never looks the same....why is Lighroom not recognising the WB settings I set within my 5D?
Any pointers?
Cheers!
Sarah

All Raw images can be expected to change appearance significantly after the initial display of the in-camera embedded JPG preview, has been replaced with a true LR-generated conversion preview.
This is because all in-camera image settings and processing options (except WB) are disregarded by Lightroom. Lightroom just works to its own processing default, and this is in your control to get as you want it.
Even the in-camera WB, is only used provided LR is set to "as-shot" WB at the top of the Basic panel. If LR's default gets changed to a fixed WB of some kind, then that is what every image will show initially thereafter.
Even with the right WB transferred and used, first LR renditions can still look very different than the camera rendition; two people picking up the same violin might make very different noises with it. One of the biggest effects for that, is when proprietary in-camera "dynamic range boost" (or however else named) functions have been used. These work by deliberate underexposure of the basic capture, and Adobe software tends not to then apply the right corrective for that.
Even without these special functions in play, it is still usual for Adobe factory default processing - combined with camera programmed metering - to produce images which appear a little on the dark side, but which nonetheless have good scope for brightening without losing highlight detail. An image that looks generally bright enough in this context, will usually turn out to have blown highlights. If the camera has any kind of a low-noise sensor, the shadows will tolerate brightening even better than the highlights will.
And if your customised LR default has applied some brightening and that turns out to be too much in a given case, it can simply be turned back down for that image with no harm done. Or you might prefer to under-correct with your default; up to you.

Lightroom 4: Massive BUG with White Balance / Quick Develop. Totally Unreliable!

I just recently updated from LR3 and just now found a massive bug concerning the white balance adjustments in the quick develop module.
After a studio shooting and especially after weddings I use the "make warmer" adjustment in the quick develop panel to give all (a few thousand NEFs) a nicer look all at once.
The great thing about this is - like all quick developments - that it increases the color temperature relative to each image's starting white balance.
Yesterday I wanted to edit my first wedding in LR4 and like in LR3 applied one click "make warmer" to all images at once (previously WB was "as shot").
While I browsed through the images to rate them I noticed some of them were very "pinkish".
After closer inspection it came out that a lot of images (50%-60%) had the following custom WB set: 5316, Tint: +10.
It is always this exact combination no matter what the "as shot" WB was.
That setting of course applies way too much magenta to a lot of images.
After resetting the WB of single images to "as shot" and selecting "make warmer" once again the images look fine and get appropriate WB values.
But every time I select more than one image to apply "make warmer" a lot of them get the strange value of 5316 and +10.
Sometimes it's even just the first few images of the selection that get correct values and all the following ones get the off value. It appears to be totally random.
I tried completely resetting all images prior to "make warmer", setting them to different camera profiles first and even switched them to Process 2010 again. But absolutely no luck! :-(
The "make warmer" tool gives me totally unusable results.
I find it strange, that I couldn't find anything about that on the net.
PLEASE fix this ASAP.
To apply WB to thousands of images individually is a real pain.
I would be glad to support you fixing the issue.
My setup:
Nikon D700
Nikon D300s
(Both cameras affected, I only shoot NEF)
Win7 x64
LR4.1 as well as LR4.2 RC

@ssprengel
I get your point but that is exactly my problem.
Not only is there no pattern but also once I reset a file that got 5316+10 to "as shot" and select "make warmer" for it again it does get the correct value! As long as I select it as a single file without others.
So just to simplify my findings and explain what I have been doing all night:
- SELECT 5 files in Library View (all freshly imported, no settings altered, WB "as shot")
File 1: 5700 / -8
File 2: 5500 / -8
File 3: 5550 / -8
File 4: 5450 / -6
File 5: 5500 / -7
- CLICK "make warmer" once
Result:
File 1: 6089 / -8
File 2: 5867 / -8
File 3: 5316 / +10
File 4: 5316 / +10
File 5: 5316 / +10
1 and 2 are okay!
- SELECT 3-5
- RESET THEM
Result:
File 3: 5550 / -8
File 4: 5450 / -6
File 5: 5500 / -7
- CLICK "make warmer" again
Result:
File 3: 5316 / +10
File 4: 5812 / -6
File 5: 5867 / -7
File 4 and 5 are okay!
- SELECT File 3 again
- RESET IT
- CLICK "make warmer"
Result:
File 3: 5923 / -8
now File 3 is okay, too.
It is completely random!
But that is no way to work, of course.
I have two weddings from last week and am going nuts already.

Bug report: Wrong As Shot White Balance for Nikon D50 NEF in Camera Raw 7, Lightroom 4

For Nikon D50 cameras Adobe Creative Suite 6 does not read "As Shot" white balance data whether it's specified or not. It defaults to "Automatic". We have the problem only for Nikon D50 and only in Photoshop CS6, Adobe Camera Raw 7.3 and Photoshop Lightroom 4. (Not in CS5. Not for Nikon D5100 or D7000 or Canon S95) .
There is a more detailed posting at photoshop.com.
Lightroom 4.2 / ACR 7.2: WB "as shot" does not read the WB of Nikon D50 NEF, defaults to "automatic"
http://phtshp.us/10utPuk
phtshp.us/10utPuk

Moving the discussion to PS Forums

Elements 11 organizer shows correct wb in thumbnails but when increased to full screen or in slide show changes white balance to tungsten

Elements 11 organizer shows correct white balance in thumbnails but when increased to full screen or in slide show changes white balance to tungsten. Photos where shot in raw and in auto or flash white balance. any suggestions out there?

Figured it out, if the raw default setting has the wb on 3000 (or tungsten) the slide show uses adobe raw to convert so they all showed blue LOL

Lightroom D100 custom white balance not read

I have a D100 converted to IR use. I shoot with a custom white balance set off green grass. If I open an image in Raw Shooter or Capture I get the balance I expect. In Lightroom it opens as what looks like an unbalanced "pink" IR shot. Manually adjusting the white balance in LR I can't get my normal results - may be related to the fact that the red channel looks completely clipped at the high end which I don't see in RSP.
The D100 is meant to be supported for reading white balances.
Any suggestions ?
Andrew
ps: I thought I posted this a few days ago but after a couple of days with no response couldn't find it myself so if it is lurking somewhere, apologies !

Suggestion for a workaround:
It seems that you want to work with a specific WB value you know.
Just create a preset with a fixed WB value which you apply by importing your IR shots. Then you don't even have to set it in the camera.
Besides this with my D70 I get the WB valance values from the camera without probs. I have however no experience with the D100
regards
Chris

Confused about White Balance slider in Lightroom.

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