Dither when bouncing to mp3?

Back in 2008, someone noticed that Logic does not provide any dithering options on an MP3 bounce.
To answer his questions, the lossy MP3 compression adds more noise than dither, so you really should start with a 24-bit master and convert directly to MP3 without any dither. The reason Logic doesn't offer the option is because you should not be using dither.
I regularly use Logic to bounce a mixing and mastering session directly to MP3 or AAC so that the client can hear it with minimal bandwidth. The only issue I have is whether 48 kHz or 44.1 kHz will be appropriate for my client.
In a little more detail, dither is basically the process of adding noise to a signal so that the bit depth can be reduced without significantly increasing the existing quantization noise. On a 24-bit file (from the 32-bit Logic mix) dither adds noise at about -144 dB, which is incredibly low. Dither on a 16-bit adds noise at about -96 dB. In both of those cases, POW-r dither uses noise shaping to hide this added dither noise behind the existing audio frequencies, hoping that you won't hear anything. When you compress to MP3, the lossy process results in noise that is much stronger than -96 dB, but it still tries to hide behind the audio in much the same way as POW-r (give or take some proprietary algorithms).
In other words, you don't need dither because MP3 is basically an equivalent process.

Hey all:
To help simplify my questions: Does anyone bounce to mp3 in logic? and if so what consideration are being made regarding Dither?
Id appreciate any comments regarding this..
Thanks

Similar Messages

Urgent! Volume of logic pro song increased when bounced into mp3- why?

I have tried everything I can think of (but I am new to logic and recording in general, so it feels much like I've been fumbling in the dark). I have put a limiter on the out-put channel, lowered the volume of all tracks, turned off normalization when bouncing, tried to make a new project with the bounced file...- none of that worked.

Are you listening on exactly the same system that you're mixing on, you can be listening to Logic with the volume of the audio interface turned down and then playing back the Mp3 file on a system with the volume turned up, that's one possibility.
Remove the limiter form the output bus and lower the master fader, that's a second possibilty.
Is there a chance that iTunes is setting the normalization tag in the Mp3 file, then when apple playes it on another Apple device with itunes, it normalizes it anyway. Sounds like this is what it is, no matter what volume the mp3 actually is it raises the volume) It's something new that supposedly levels output, loud songs are brought down a bit and low volume tunes are brought up so that everything is the same level.
really dislike itunes and never use for anything resembling pro audio.

Weird sound when bounce to mp3

Hi,
When I bounce my tunes to mp3 I get this weird almost like a flanger effect over the whole track. I am sure I am doing something wrong but am not sure what. Could someone please give me some suggestions to remedy this.
Thanks.

Bounce in aiff to see if the problem persists; if not the import the file into iTunes and use it to convert to mp3.
If you obtain the same result in aiff too then you could have some phase coherence problem and you should have a closer looks to every single track to check with different eq or efx settings.
Remember that 2 sounds with the same frequency but with opposite phase erase themselves completely.
cheers
rob

Bouncing To MP3 Format: Stereo Mode = Normal or Joint Stereo?

After much research on these forums and listening test, I finally realized that having the "Normalize" box checked (in the Bounce window) resulted in a different sound from what I had mixed. It did "protect" my songs from being distorted in iTunes but I went back to the songs that were poorly mixed and reset the levels to be lower. Bottom line is that I don't want Logic to play "big brother" by messing with the volume/dynamics of my "final mix" when I bounce. Hence no more Normalize for my stuff.
That being said I noticed that when bouncing to MP3 format, Logic defaults the "Stereo Mode" (option in Bounce Window) to "Joint Stereo". I looked up "Stereo Mode" in the manual but there was no explanation as to the difference between "Normal" and "Joint Stereo".
Anyone know the difference between these two MP3 bounce modes?

Joint Stereo reduces the file size a little by encoding some parts of the spectrum in mono, mostly the low end components which are, to our perception, non-directional.
There's really no downside to this, unless you have a track that depends on some flanging effects, in which case you might hear a difference. I believe that Fraunhofer codecs are used by Apple and if this bothers you (unlikely) you could use a LAME encoder which treats either side of a stereo file separately.

Result code -43 when bouncing Mp3 in Logic 9

Hey anyone - has anyone come across the same message when trying to bounce an Mp3 in Logic 9?
I'm running 10.9.5.
Aiff and WAVS bounce fine.

Yeah that works fine but it obviously a little annoying still as it's eating up hard disk space and given the amount of bounces I do will eat up for hard drive with uneccesary files unless I bother deleting!
Indeed! It is a bug that several people have reported and as yet it remains unfixed...
Just delete the extra file right away and it's really no bother in the future... though personally I rarely bounce to MP3 these days.... I either bounce to an uncompressed wave or aiff... or if I must compress the file for some reason... I use M4A AAC. Any particular reason you have to use MP3? (Uploading somewhere in particular for example that requires MP3 format?)
Lesson is to never upgrade! I was coasting before I had to upgrade to get Logic X for a project and now I don't even use it anyway!
This is why several of here are still running Logic pro 9.1.5 and OS X 10.6.8... because it has been proven to be the most stable of combos... and will do so for as long as it is possible (so long as the hardware that allows that combo, continues to work)
Anyhow.. glad I could help!
Cheers...
Nigel

Sounds Great in Logic 7.2 Express, but not so much when bounced to AIFF

When I play my track in Logic it sounds great, but when I bounce it and play the .aiff it doesn't, it sounds less dynamic, not as rich.
Can someone give me some advice/tips about bouncing? What are the best settings for the best sound quality? The track well end up on a cd.
Thanks!
You can listen to the work in progress here (levels are not finished and this is an mp3):
http://www.djgecko.com/mp3/05yesterdaystomorrow.mp3
Dual G5 2.0 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

Hey B,
The track seems fine dynamic wise, (apart from some audio clicks here and there). Are you using any audio interface? If yes, that can be the cause, after bounce you probably earing from the mac output.
If you're recording at 24 bit (44.1KHz), use dither at bounce, to have a nice 16 bit.
You can also use the mastering plug-ins on the Output 1-2, on channel strip, click on the inserts arrow>logic express>mastering and choose>final master pop or dance to see wich one you like best. This loads a bounch of plug-ins at the master that will give a nice push to your mix. Watach the levels if it's too hot, bring down the compressor gain.
Best regards,
Jorge

Unable to Bounce to Mp3 in Logic Pro 9

Hi!
I've just upgraded to Logic 9.1 and I'm unable to bounce to mp3 regardless of what settings I use. In fact the same thing happens when trying to bounce to wave or aif.
The progress bar moves as expected, then at the point where the bounce is finished the progress par basically "empties".... Anyway, I can't use Logic * to bounce this track because Logic 9 files are not backward compatible, right? This means I cannot deliver a test of this mix to my clients as promised. Hmmmm...
Anyone else unable to bounce tracks?
Thanks...

Hi Guys!
First of all thanks for responding to my question.
Strange how it happened but, I did end up talking to one of the "Logic" guys (a design engineer) in Germany and I was able to get the mp3 (offline) bounce to work, when the audio/effects tail option was not selected. The song ends at bar 107 but I'd set the bounce range from bar 1 to bar 110, to account for the "room" that is part of the VSL samples I was using.
Incidentally, prior to talking with him I had tried both offline and realtime in both mp3 and pcm (both wave and aif). I was able to get a wave file but it sounded strange.
Funny thing was the guy didn't raise third party plugins as an issue, even though I did mention which ones I was using (Waves SSL, Stillwell, Transverb, Supa Phaser, and the Slowslimslider Side chain Compressor.). Also, I must mention that all instrument tracks were converted to audio using the Bounce track in place function (wow! what an amazing feature).
I'm just wondering if the fact I'm still on 10.5.8 might have something to do with the issue. I'll have to get more clarification on that from him. Upgrading to Snow Leopard is definitely on the cards, once I assess which of my current 3rd party plugins will work under the new OS version. In the meantime, I'll continue running Logic in 32 bit mode...
So, the bottom line is to simply set the bounce range so that the bounce will include any effects/audio tail (do not select that option in the bounce dialog) and use either real time or offline.
I hope this info helps.
Thanks again for everything guys!

When bouncing- what's best method for smallest file size/highest quality?

I am in the process of embedding 3 mp3's into a PDF to submit as a portfolio. The PDF also has text, and two scores included, and with the 3 embedded mp3's it can't be more than 10mb.
So my question is: When bouncing a project out of Logic, what is the best method for getting the smallest file size, but retaining the best audio quality? And once it's out of Logic and it is an mp3 or other type of audio file, is there a best format for compressing it further, and still maintaining the relative quality?
I bounced out the three projects into wav's. Now I am using Switch for Mac to compress them down to smaller Mp3's. I basically need them to be about 3 mb each. Two of the recordings sound OK at that size, but they are just MIDI(one project is piano and string quartet, the other is just piano- all software instruments. The recording that combines MIDI and Audio and has more tracks (three audio tracks and 10 Midi/software instrument tracks)and sounds completely horrible if I get it under 5 mb as an mp3. The problem is that I need all three to equal around 9mb, but still sound good enough to submit as a portfolio for consideration into a Master's program.
If anyone can help I would really appreciate it. Please be detailed in your response, because I am new to logic and I really need the step by step.
Thank you...

MUYconfundido wrote:
I am in the process of embedding 3 mp3's into a PDF to submit as a portfolio. The PDF also has text, and two scores included, and with the 3 embedded mp3's it can't be more than 10mb.
So my question is: When bouncing a project out of Logic, what is the best method for getting the smallest file size, but retaining the best audio quality?
The highest bitrate that falls within your limits. You'll have to calculate how big your MP3's can be, then choose the bitrate that keeps the size within your limit. The formula is simple: bitrate is the number of kilobits per second, so a 46 second stereo file at 96 kbps would be 96 x 46 = 4416 kbits / 8* = 552 kBytes or 0.552 MB. (*8 bits = 1 Byte)
So if you know the length of your tracks you can calculate what bitrate you need to keep it within 10 MB total.
I consider 128 kbps the lowest bearable bitrate for popsongs and other modern drumkit based music. Deterioration of sound quality is often directly related to the quality of the initial mix and the type of instruments used in it. Piano(-like) tones tend to sound watery pretty quickly at lower bitrates, as do crash and ride cymbals. But don't take my word for it, try it out.
And once it's out of Logic and it is an mp3 or other type of audio file, is there a best format for compressing it further, and still maintaining the relative quality?
You can only ZIP the whole thing after that, but that is just for transport. You'll have to unzip it again to use it. And no, you cannot compress an MP3 any further and still play it.
I bounced out the three projects into wav's. Now I am using Switch for Mac to compress them down to smaller Mp3's.
That is silly, you could have done that in Logic, which has one of the best MP3 encoders built in. And how good encoders are will especially come out at bitrates around or below 128, which you might be looking at.
I basically need them to be about 3 mb each.
So, one more scrap of info we need here: how long are those three pieces, exactly? I'll calculate the bitrate for you - but please bounce 'm directly out of Logic as MP3's. They will very probably sound better than your WAV-conversions made with Switch.
!http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/4996323899_071398b89a.jpg!
Two of the recordings sound OK at that size, but they are just MIDI(one project is piano and string quartet, the other is just piano- all software instruments. The recording that combines MIDI and Audio and has more tracks (three audio tracks and 10 Midi/software instrument tracks)and sounds completely horrible if I get it under 5 mb as an mp3. The problem is that I need all three to equal around 9mb, but still sound good enough to submit as a portfolio for consideration into a Master's program.
Length of the piece? And does the .Wav bounce you have sound OK?

What is the difference when bouncing a Logic Pro X project to Stereo Mode and Normal Mode?

I was was working on a Logic Pro X Project which I am using as a Sequence for a band. When I completed my project, I mixed for left side to hear the Click track and I panned everything else to the right side. After I completed my project, I bounced to Mp3 in Normal Stereo Mode and after opening in iTunes I discovered that I am hearing the click on the right track. I again bounced and tried the Joint Stereo Mode thinking that would fix it but I still get the click track on both left and right. What is the difference between bouncing to Normal and Joint Stereo.
My goal is to produce a 2 track Mp3 Sequence so that all my click track is only heard on the left side and the produced audio is heard only on the right side.
Any suggestions?

FIrst, try to bounce to uncompressed aiff or wave and see if you get perfectL-R separation.
The compression algorithm does its voodoo and maybe some of the left right separation gets messed up with it.
About Joint Stereo.
The idea behind is to save data. The algorithm analyzes the stereo signal, when it sees signals/frequencies that are in the left and right channel, then it says, "having the same signal on the left and right channel is the same as storing only one channel (mono ), and when played back send that one channel to the left and right speaker. it saves you half the storage/transmission". However, you have to trust the voodoo again to think that if what comes out is the same as what went in.
If size and transmission speed isn't an issues, don't use Joint Stereo.
Hope that helps
Edgar Rothermich
http://DingDingMusic.com/Manuals/
'I may receive some form of compensation, financial or otherwise, from my recommendation or link.'

Multiple tracks and effects not bouncing to mp3???

Hello,
This might be a tough problem to diagnose due to the many possibilities as to what might be causing this...
I have multiple tracks and effects missing on a project [32 tracks] after bouncing to mp3. This has never happened to me before and I've been running Logic consistently for about a year now. I've tried bouncing the same project about five times now and there doesn't seem to be any consistency with regards to which tracks and effects go missing.
I do not have any of the tracks or effects that are missing after bouncing muted and nothing in the project is soloed. No problems with automation prior to bouncing either.
Please help.
Thanks.

cauchy wrote:
Just tried it and got the infamous "System Overload"!!
Any suggestions to get around this? I already froze my tracks. Btw, only working with 4 GB's of RAM...could that be the problem?
Thanks.
Which is why you're missing tracks... too many plugins, are you using Reverbs and Delays on a bus where possible? RAM could be a problem but the fact is you're over-taxing your system. It could be virtual instruments, it could be not being able to pull data off a drive fast enough... it could be using too many Reverbs as inserts when using one on a bus for several tracks would be more economical.
Try giving your system more time to work.
Increase the I/O Buffer to 512 or 1024...... try the Process Buffer at Large

Fuzzing Sound When Bouncing

When i bounce to an MP3, I am getting a strange static-y buzzing sound. I don't know that much yet about mixing properly, but so far, with all the songs I written, I haven't had this problem when bouncing. I don't hear this sound when listening to the song in Logic, just when it's bounced. Any suggestions? Is this related to the mix, to something I might not know about yet?
Thanks!
ps. What is the standard way that people communicate back and forth. When I make a post and someone responds and I want to say thank you, is it standard to post thank-you replies on the board? OR does that clutter up the postings?
Thanks much,
Sarah

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jord

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Logic x not synced with material in rewire app when played from start and when bounced.

When rewiring logic x and reason, play from start in logic..(this doesn't happen when you play from start in reason) when the playhead is at 0 it kind of goes back a millisecond and plays... which makes it not synced with material in rewire application. Sure you can always hit play in Reason or Rewire app... but this is completely unsuable when bouncing the project!!!! Help please!!!!

When rewiring logic x and reason, play from start in logic..(this doesn't happen when you play from start in reason) when the playhead is at 0 it kind of goes back a millisecond and plays... which makes it not synced with material in rewire application. Sure you can always hit play in Reason or Rewire app... but this is completely unsuable when bouncing the project!!!! Help please!!!!

Notes on 1.1.1.1 using insert effects cut off when bouncing from the start

Song starts at 1.1.1.1 with a piano using space designer in insert. When bouncing from 1.1.1.1, the first notes are missing on the mix.
Mac Pro Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon Mac OS X (10.4.9) Logic Pro 7.2.3

That's what happens - It's a bit of a PITA.
You can (as stated above):
Start your bounce before 1.1.1.1
Move the song start marker back
Move all of your song forward
In the future start songs on 2.1.1.1 (or where you choose
After your bounce you can trim and master in waveburner (or your choice of app).

Dither when bouncing to mp3?

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