DNG camera profile - which to trust, Adobe's or X-Rite's?

I found that dual-illuminant DNG camera profiles created with X-Rite's ColorChecker application and Adobe's DNG Profile Editor give different visual results (the profiles were produced using the same set of 6500K/2850K illuminated photos). I'm now in trouble which profile(s) to trust, I assume Adobe's is correct...
Andreas

b2martin_a wrote:
I like the DNG Profile Editor better.
Me too. The purpose of the twisting is for more pleasing color. Cool dark greens, but warmer light greens; dark midnight blues, but warmer cyany light blues, deep dark reds, but warmer light reds...
Note: this exagerates what often happens in real life: shadows are cool, sunlit colors are warmer...
The linear profiles may be more accurate, but the twisted profiles may look better.
Obviously this is subjective, and may depend on the shot and the purpose for it...
My favorite profile is a customized version of Adobe Standard created with DNG Profile Editor - a little dimmer in the upper-midtones/lower-highlights, a little less cyany blues, a little cooler greens, and slightly warmer (less magenta-y) reds.
Rob

Similar Messages

LR 4 and custom DNG camera profiles... they are not embedded?!

i have the colorchecker passport for some days.
my workflow:
import the .CR2 raw files from memorycard as DNG copy into lightroom.
create a DNG camera profile with the colorchecker passport (LR export -> xrite colorchecker).
then i choose the created camera profile and i set the whitebalance.
all working fine... as it should.
my problem is, i don´t want to have a hundred DNG profiles, i will sure create that much over the time, on my harddisk.
i think it´s messy and it´s also not very save to have the profiles only as separate files, in case you lose the profiles.
i thought the camera profile can be embedded INTO the DNG file.
i thought the camera profile is written into the DNG files when i write the metadata back into the files.. but it seems not.
it seems the DNG camera profile is only embedded into the DNG image file when i EXPORT the DNG file again with the LR export dialog.
for example:
i choose the camera profil "MY 5D MK2 PROFIL_1" for an image and then save the metadata back into the DNG image file.
then i delete the camera profile "MY 5D MK2 PROFIL_1" from harddisk.
the next time i open LR and select the same image ... the cameraprofile is reverted back to "adobe standard" and the profil i have created is gone.
when i EXPORT the image as DNG, then even after i have deleted the DNG cameraprofile "MY 5D MK2 PROFIL_1" from the hardisk.... the profil is still in the DNG image.
that´s what i want... but i have to export all files again as DNG files.
i would really like to get rid of this extra step.
i hope my english is good enough so you understand what my problem is.
can anyone share a light on this?
is this the only way to embedd the DNG camera profile or im doing something wrong?
intel i7 2600k, win7 64bit, 16 GB ram, LR 4 final.

possible.... but imho that can lead (at least in my case ) to problems.
in the case when you forget to update the DNG manually and delete the profiles (because you think they are already embeded via STRG+S).
or when you send them to someone without updating the DNG preview... i think that is unessesary complicating things without gaining a real benefit.. not?
afaik there is no filter option so you can create a smartfilter for images that need to be updated this way?

Help me understand matrix profiles (DNG camera profiles)

I'm guessing it's a fairly simple question, so please bear with me as I'm working my way round trying to understand the DNG format:
After the de-bayering step, are DNG camera profiles pure 3-channel mathematical curves? I know Adobe DNG editor allows for adjustments from the Color-checker patches & there's some hue sliders etc, but do these build into RGB curves, or is it some kind of additional mild LUT (or something else) applied over the top?
Thanks!
Bert

read here how DNG (dcp) profiles are guiding (or rather how info there is being used by a code) the color transform in Adobe converters = http://wwwimages.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.p dfутили
also Sandy Mc... utility is useful to peek inside dpc profiles data = dcptool.sourceforge.net
may be also the following link = Dcp or Icc Profile?
and do a search for posting from Eric Chan (madmanchan) and participants like VitNovak ... here and also forums like LuLa

Feature Request: Opcodes in DNG Camera Profiles?

We now have V1.3 of the DNG spec, with support for opcodes, which is great.
Now, can we the ability to put opcodes in DNG camera profiles?
Given all the hard work has already been done to support opcodes, this would seem to me to be a really value adding thing to do. It would allow profiles to be created that support specific camera/lens combinations. E.g., it would allow the Leica M8's famous "Cyan corners" vignetting problem on uncoded wide ange lenses to be addressed by a profile rather than having to rewrite all the image's raw data.
Thanks,
Sandy

The files are in this directory on my Vista machine and my Win7 machine.
How far do you get when you try to click down to that path in Explorer: C:\ ?
If so:
C:\ProgramData is a hidden directory.
You can enable visibility of hidden files and folders by going to:
My Computer / Alt-Tools / Folder options... / View
and near the top you will find Hide and Show hidden files options.
However, you can also just open My Computer and type c:\programdata into the Address area and hit Enter and you'll be in that folder despite it being hidden, then click your way down to where you need to be.

DNG Camera Profile vs. White Balance?

I'm having trouble understanding DNG Camera Profiles and haven't found a good explanation online. I understand that each camera or camera/lens combination will have some variations, and I understand the white balance process. But I haven't grasped the idea that I can create a usable profile using one or two ColorChecker shots in conditions that aren't tightly controlled. For example, if I create a DNG Camera Profile using my tungsten lights, how does that help correct photos shot using different slightly warmer or cooler lights? How does the profile taken at an unknown color temperature help correct for another color temperature? And (more fundamentally) how is what the DNG Camera Profiles do different from a white balance adjustment? Feel free to just point me towards an existing explanation. I've read a lot about camera profiles, but I still don't quite get it. Thanks.

See this Luminance Landscape thread about dual illuminant profiles:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=43733
If you scroll down to where I (tlooknbill) posted Color Checker chart samples, you'll see the visual differences.
Your camera may deliver different results.

Looking inside of DNG Camera Profiles and editing them

For those interested in the insides of DNG Camera profiles, and how to edit them, I've written dcpTool.
dcpTool is a compiler/decompiler for DNG camera profiles (.dcp files). dcpTool can decompile binary format DCP files into an XML format for editing with a text editor or whatever, and then compile the XML format file back into a binary DCP file, as well as extract embedded profiles from DNG files. It runs on Windows and OS X command lines, and is based on V1.2 of the DNG SDK.
See here: http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/
Health warning: dcpTool is a command line utility - if you're not comfortable with command line stuff, dcpTool probably won't be of any interest to you.

Very cool, thanks for the info.

Custom DNG camera profiles only available for DNG files?

I developed a custom camera profile for my Sigma DP-1, using a colorchecker chart and the DNG profile editor.
I exported the DNG profile in the default location.
When I open Lightroom or ACR, the new profile is not available for X3F files, only DNG files. Is this normal???

Well, I've imported the original X3F file as well as the converted DNG file in Lightroom.
When I develop the DNG file, my custom profile appears in the list. When I click on the X3F file, embedded* is the only option.
It may have to do with an incomplete support of the X3F format. I have just repeated the exercise for my D300, and in this case the custom profile is available for NEF files.
Too bad since I'm happy with some of the Adobe camera profiles for the D300, but less so with the default look for Sigma DP-1 files.
I guess I should file a bug report...
* or "matrix" or whatever is the term in the english version, I have the french version which says "incorporé"

Apply DNG Camera Profile to scan?

I am setting up a workflow to scan and process a large volume of slides. I am scanning with a Nikon LS5000 and Vuescan, outputting as (linear)DNG and then processing in Lightroom.
For me this is efficient as it unifies my digital and analogue workflows. I could also just output a raw tiff (not color corrected), but I like the smaller file size and the embedding of LR settings with DNG.
I have done test scans for which I then created a custom color correction profile in the DNG profile editor. I am very happy with the level of control over color in the profile editor, and would like to use this to apply color correction to batches of scans shot on a particular film type (kodachrome for example). I know these tools are designed to be used with camera raw, but they perform equally well with linear files.
The problem is that as the dng file was not created by a camera, but a scanner (even though the EXIF data shows the LS5000 as 'camera') I can not get the profile to show up in the Camera Calibration/Profile tab in order to apply it to an image.
Questions:
1- Is there any way to force the profile to load anyway? (LR could have an 'other' option in the profile tab)
2- Can I get LR/Profile Editor to consider the LS5000 as a legitimate camera, as opposed to just producing a generic tiff?
3- Can I somehow manually embed my custom profile into a DNG so that the embedded profile is automatically the right one?
Thanks.

I am aware of the issue with the Nef files, as I found out that they are different from Nef camera files and not read by the DNG converter, or anything other than nikon scan.
There are options though in vuescan with any scanner that allow you to disable all adjustments and export as a 'raw' file, either in tiff or dng format. Vuescan is then primarily used to control the hardware. The only processing that is applied to the scan is the calibration (correcting for variations in intensity in the ccd), and optionally IR-dust removal. The important part is that there is no base curve, gamma, and no color adjustment or icc-profile applied. For practical purposes LR could treat it as raw.
As a hamburger it would be very rare and decidedly pink on the inside. The main 'cooking' should ideally be happening in LR by applying the base curve and color adjustments in one action (camera profile + adjustments) as opposed to in two stages (scanner software followed by PS/LR). My objective is to minimize the 'destructive' scanner software step, as I only want to scan once.

Where do you put DNG camera profile for light room?

I just received my Leica M9 and downloaded from chromasoft a camera profile for the M9. it is a .dcp file but I can not find where to use it.
Adolfo

Dependent on OS. On Windows vista the usual location is Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CamerRaw\CameraProfiles .
Or you can place it directly in the folder where the Adobe profiles are located, usually Users\All Users\Adobe\CamerRaw\CameraProfiles\Camera|Leica M9
on OSx /Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles
The actual profile is used via the calibration setting in the develop module.

Camera profiles in DNG from camera (Leica S2, M8)

Hi all,
I´m reviewing captures from the Leica S2, which is saving Raw in the DNG format after capture. There is only one camera profile in the DNG files ("embedded"). Compared to a JPEG (mode DNG+JPG for capture) of the same shot the color rendering with the embedded profile is more saturated and slightly shifted in the hues. Greens get an ugly plastic look.
I have captures with Leica M8, too. They have more camera profiles: Embedded, Adobe Standard, Camera Standard and ACR legacy (3.6, 4.4).
As I understand Leica M8 DNGs are supported by Adobe with camera specific camera profiles while Leica S2 DNGs are NOT supported by Adobe with specific camera profiles.
Please can someone clarify this?
Second question: Is the Leica S2 embedded profile a camera specific profile (from Leica) or a general camera profile? Who is in charge for the embedded profile?
Mike
((posted this yesterday in DNG forum too, but this forum seems to be more visited))

Jeff Schewe wrote:
As far as I can see, any support for the S2 raw files is preliminary (which means it's NOT officially supported with a full range of color profiles).
Jeff,
I´ve got shots from two S2 cameras and they are pre-production (in terms of firmware, Leica will update this).
I process them with ACR 5.6 / LR 2.6.
As far as I understand "embedded" means color rendering as supposed by the camera maker (in this case Leica) and "Adobe Standard" does mean an official camera profile from Adobe. "Embedded" is pretty close to the color rendering of the S2´s JPEGs.
By the way, Capture One does open the DNG with a "DNG File Neutral" ICC profile. The color rendering is quite different. I know there is no DNG camera profile support in other applications than ACR/LR.

Converting LUTs to Camera Profiles in the DNG Profile Editor

Hi,
I've just started using the DNG Profile Editor, and can't seem to get the process right.
I have some film LUTs that I'd like to convert to camera profiles for my 5D Mk II.
Here's how I'm trying to do it, maybe someone can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong.
This is what I tried first:
1. Take a Color Chart into Photoshop, apply the LUT via Color Lookup adjustment layer.
2. Save out as 16bit TIFF
3. Open as Camera Raw, then save out as DNG
4. Open the adjusted color chart into DNG Profile Editor, run it through the color chart section to create a recipe of color adjustments.
5. Export out as Camera Profile
But when I open up a 5D image in Lightroom, the profile doesn't show up in the list, so I realised maybe it needs to be saved specifically as a 5D profile, but I can't figure out how.
If I:
1. Do steps 1-4 as above
2. Open a 5D DNG file so that I can set a 5D profile as the base profile
3. Load the recipe
The color adjustments appear on the color wheel, but nothing happens to the 5D image, no colour change at all.
Exporting it (which does say 'Export as 5D profile') does then give me a profile that shows up in Lightroom, but it doesn't do anything to the image...
What's the correct way of doing this?
Thanks!
S

I don’t know claim to know anything about the internals of DNG Camera Profiles, but I’m pretty sure you cannot take a RGB-file (TIF/JPG) DNG and make a raw-file DNG Profile for use with your camera raws, which sounds like what you’re trying to do.
Despite looking like it might work in DNGPE, starting with an RGB-file recipe (rather than a RAW-file recipe) will only lock the specific colors on the color wheel, rather than create a raw-capable camera profile.

Could´nt find a camera profile for the M9.

I have just bought a Leica M9 but I could not find a camera profile for the M9. In the folder "application support/adobe/camera raw/" there is only a profile for the M8. Do I simply not see the profile or is there none. I am using Lightroom 4.4. and Camerea Raw 7.6. on a Mac.

It isn’t on the list but it produces DNGs with an embedded camera profile so it wouldn’t need any specific support from Adobe, I don’t think, so maybe they didn’t feel the need.
If you download the sample DNGs from KenRockwell, you’ll see an Embedded and an Adobe Standard camera profile, which don’t appear to be different because switching between them produces only the tiniest variation in the histogram. If something equivalent to Adobe Standard is already embedded in the camera’s DNGs that there wouldn’t be any other Camera-this or Camera-that profiles to match, hence only Adobe Standard is supplied.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m9/sample-photos-3.htm

Love Lightroom Camera Profiles. Could we get more?

Loving the Camera Profiles for Sony cameras in Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw. Would it be possible to add them for Sony A900, A850 and A700 in the next Lightroom and ACR updates? Thank you!

Brian Smith Photo wrote:
Many Sony users have asked why Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw doesn't read Sony Creative Styles embedded in RAW - thwse camera profiles offer a very nice response to that question.
ACR and LR don't support this capability with any camera model, and it's not likely to be added in the future. What Adobe has done is provide "emulations" of the "Camera" picture styles for some camera makes and models, which can be manually selected and applied. You can do a search here and at Photoshop Family Customer Community for posts on camera picture styles and add your vote, or even add a new request.
The OEM's picture style "recipes" are designed to work specifically with the their raw converter and not ACR/LR. The Adobe Standard camera profile and ACR/LR Develop default settings are designed to make camera raw images look nearly identical regardless of camera make or model (i.e. "Standard").
Brian Smith Photo wrote:
Those are someone's custom profiles which are fine but they are not the Sony Creative Style profiles. The screenshot above shows Lightroom profiles for A7-series cameras.
What I read at that site:
I've photographed, under the direct sunlight, a 24 color GretagMacbeth / X-Rite table, then, after converting the RAW to DNG, I've created the standard color profiles with Adobe DNG Profile Editor. Starting from the standard profile and using as reference the "non standard" Nikon, Canon and Leica's profiles, I've created the creative profiles.
Based on the procedure he used these camera profiles may as good or better than Adobe's. They are both emulations created using the Adobe DNG Profile Editor. I can also tell you that neither profile (Adobe's or his) will perfectly "match" the picture style of an in-camera JPEG or raw file processed with the OEMs raw converter. It may be close....but no cigar! I use a ColorChecker PassPort created profile with all my Canon DSLRs, which I find is a better "starting point" than Adobe Standard–YMMV. I also rarely if ever use the "Camera" profiles, which usually require using different Basic panel settings. The one exception is 'Camera Faithful,' which I sometimes use for revealing fine tonal and color gradations (i.e. flowers).

Homemade camera profiles

As an early adopter of DNG Profile Editor and user of the Chart Wizard for creating my D300 profiles for Camera Raw, I have used each successive version as it has been released. It worked quite well with my D300, and was a definite improvement over the profiles supplied with ACR, although I had to give it a bit of help with the values, by taking the mode of a few saturation readings and adding a bit of manual tweak to lightness.
I acquired a D800 in March, and headed outside on the first sunny day with the GM ColorChecker to take a few shots. I used the latest version of DNGPE to generate a camera profile, which seemed to be an improvement over Adobe Standard in terms of colour accuracy and balance. However, a couple of weeks later, I noticed some unpleasant banding on the boundaries between certain colours. I decided to sacrifice accuracy for aesthetics, and ditched the profile.
I guess that Chart Wizard isn't really accurate enough for my needs, or the patch transforms are so few and so extreme that it can't provide a smooth transition between some colours. Am I doing it wrong, or is this a known limitation?
Are there any plans for a new version of DNG PE? Is this the sort of question no one is allowed to answer?

I actually never really used DNG PE, but out of curiosity, tried making a calibrated profile for D800, based on Adobe standard and using a test photo that I got from one site with Macbeth on it, just to see how it works. Tried DNG PE .45 and .46 and results are indeed different - similar to what Yammer got with his test photos.
After examining the recipe files, my understanding is that for all patches in the chart there is a hue and saturation after applying base profile (SrcHue, SrcSat) in linear Digital photo pro. However, while hue values were similar with both versions, saturation was different - in case of .45 usually somewhat lower than on photo converted with ACR and in case of .46 higher. Which is a bit strange to me. These values are compared to correct values to calculate LUT for making a new, calibrated profile. So, calculated corrections for these colors (SatAdjust) are different for .45 and .46. One explanation could be an additional tone curve in the profile generated with version .46, while profile generated with .45 has no tone curve, meaning standard Adobe curve is used by ACR.
I understand that these values (SrcHue, SrcSat) are different for every camera, because in some cases Adobe standard profile does better and in some worse job (depending on the sensor and lens) + different lighting conditions, so for some cameras, two points can fall closer and for some cameras they won't be that close. However, it would be nice if algorithm for calculation of lookup tables can take care not to make things too abrupt, because except correcting the lighting, there is nothing user can do to obtain better result, except of course making manual corrections ... Also, I don't see any nonzero ValAdjust value in recipe files, and without correcting Value while making Sat and Hue corrections, it's very unlikely that resulting profile will perform well - there will be increased color noise / banding - at least it was always the case when I was playing with my own algorithms to do similar things ...

I would like to add a new Canon camera profile to the RAW interface

Hi, I would like to add a new Canon camera profile to the RAW interface.
I have recently installed the new camera profile 'Studio Portrait' which i download from here:
http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/file/studio-portrait.html
When I open up a RAW files in Camera RAW, go to 'Camera Calibration', click on the drop down list called
'Camera Profile' I only see 'Adobe Standard, Faithful etc etc'.
My questions are, can i add the same camera profile i put in my camera, into a folder with in photoshop?
Or is photoshop reading the raw file and only seeing the default camera profiles?
If I could see the new camera profile listed it would help with work flow.
Best
JL-B
Please help, ive not had a good time waiting on the phone and trying to explain this to a live chat, hours have been wasted. Once i know the answer I can get back to the commission.

Are you following this
Apply a camera profile
To apply a camera profile, select it from the Camera Profile pop-up menu in the Camera Calibration tab of the Camera Raw dialog box. The Adobe Standard profile for a camera is named Adobe Standard. Camera Matching profiles include the prefix Camera in the profile name. The Camera Profile pop-up menu displays only profiles for your camera.
If the only profile in the Camera Profilemenu is Embedded, it means that you have selected a TIFF or JPEG image. Adobe Standard and Camera Matching profiles work only with raw images.
Note: If you have selected a raw file and Adobe Standardand Camera Matching profiles do not appear in the Camera Profilepop-up menu, download the latest Camera Raw update.

DNG camera profile - which to trust, Adobe's or X-Rite's?

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