Drop-Frame v. Non-Drop Frame and Edit to Tape

System Configuration: G5 Dual 2.0, QT v7.0.4, FCP v5.0.4, OS X v10.4.6, KonaLH, Keyspan USA-28x USB-->Serial Adapter
Problem: When working with a drop-frame sequence, and editing to tape, the program is edited to the tape with an offset of 3 seconds and 18 frames.
Reproducible: Yes.
Steps to Reproduce:
1. Create a drop-frame sequence.
2. Edit the sequence in step 1.
3. Perform an edit to tape with the sequence edited in step 2.
What should happen: The sequence should be edited to tape at the time it occurs in the timeline.
What does happen: The sequence is edited to the tape 3 seconds and 18 frames after it should be!
Other observations: 3 seconds and 18 frames is exactly how much time is not in an hour of drop-frame time when compared to non-drop frame time. If you drop two (2) frames in every minute that does not end in zero, the math works out to 2*54=108 dropped frames in an hour. For the sake of simple mathematics, lets say there are 30 frames in a second. So 108/30= 3 with a remainder of 18, or 3 seconds and 18 frames.
It's as if FCP is getting confused about drop and non-drop timecode when the sequence is drop-frame. If anyone can offer any insights, confirmation, or resolutions for what I am seeing, it would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading!

This may be related to a "bug" or issue that has been around since FCP1. When FCP is using deck control over firewire, The timecode display will default to DF, even if the tape is NDF. Look closely at the timecode dispays in the edit to tape window. If you see a semicolon before the frames place, FCP is seeing the tape TC as DF. Play the tape until you see the TC display change to NDF, then re-set your in point. This has worked for me in the past.
Hope this helps.

Similar Messages

DV NTSD drop-frame vs. non-drop-frame??

My impression has always been that DV NTSC is non-drop frame. I'm having to capture a 100 hours of DV tapes from a Sony WV-DR7 deck. FCP capture is giving me this warning:
"You are about to capture Non-Drop Frame media from a device currently detecting or configured for Drop Frame media. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships."
The Sony is all in Japanese, and the rough translation manual does not mention drop frame \ non-drop frame setting choices on the deck.
Would anyone have any suggestions or recommendations?
Ben

Sorry to be confusing~~~~
What I meant was, since I wasn't sure if the VTR you are using actually shows the timecode window, or just a timecode counter (the Sony DSR-11's display does not show the colon/semicolon difference in the display that is supered on the non-digital video outs), I thought the quickest way to assess what flavor of TC you had was to play the tape and use "Capture Now" to capture a few seconds. Then you can look in the bin, check the media start column and see if there are semi-colons or colons. This would be helpful particularly if FCP is balking at capturing from your logged marks.
The other thing I was talking about was a case where I had been given DVCam copies of camera masters, to use for a rough cut. Because these tapes were work prints, they used old DVCam tapes. One of the tapes had originally had DF material on it. When the tape op made the workprint, he started recording the new NDF material about 10 seconds into the tape, he therefore left 10 seconds of DF bars at the head of the reel (the old material). I put the tape in a DSR-11, fast wound up to picture, and started logging. When I was at the end of the reel, I hit rewind on the machine so it would rewind while I was clearing up spelling errors, etc. The machine backed all the way to head of the tape, into the DF area.
So when I hit batch capture, the machine reported back to FCP that it had a tape with the correct name loaded, but the time code was in the incorrect format - the message you received. It took a while to figure it out, but when I wound the tape forward, so that it was in the picture portion of the reel, the machine was then outputting the code that FCP was expecting. So by "parking" the deck in the picture portion of the tape, it would cue correctly from the logged point.
Hope this explains it. hope you have a simple solution, too.
Message was edited by: Meg The Dog to fix typo

Drop frame OR non-drop frame

I've never worked with NTSC before. I converted my PAL footage to NTSC m2v, then imported the files into DVDSP. The audio and video play fine. The project preferences are set to non-drop frame timecode.
Is this correct for an NTSC DVD?
Does it matter which time code I choose?

Short answer: it probably doesn't matter.
Some circumstances under which the TC format matters:
Adding subtitles or captioning to the DVD - the TC of your asset needs to match exactly the master from the which the subs or captioning were created. Same if you're importing a marker list from a text file.
In editing with FCP etc., anytime you are coordinating sequence TC with tape or other asset TC, you should try to keep them consistent.
Also NDF TC is helpful for 3:2 pulldown removal (converting 29.97 video back to 24p by removing the pulldown).
Otherwise you are probably fine. Since you have converted from PAL to NTSC in software, you wouldn't be able to match up captions or subs to the new TC whether you used DF or NDF anyway.
Hope this helps -
Max Average

How to tell if video is drop frame or non-drop frame in Encore? Need info to use correct SCC file.

Hi,
Thanks in advance. I am using Encore DVD 2.0 to add closed captions to video. I have both a drop frame SCC file and a non-drop frame SCC file. How can I tell which one to use? Can I tell from the way the timecode looks on the timeline? Do I look at the timeline timecode or the source timecode? For example, in a random area of video the timeline says 00;02;50;24 while the source says 00:02:50:20.
Thanks.

Thanks jbowden and Jim for your help. Although I'm still not real clear how Encore notes DF vs NDF (more on that below), I got my problem solved.
Regarding DF vs NDF in Encore DVD...There doesn't seem to be a real consistent method of identifying which is which. For example, Jim suggested that I look in the Project panel for the colons vs semicolons. There, the video file timecode was shown as xx;xx;xx;xx with semicolons, apparently suggesting that it is DF. However, the timeline and audio file listed in the project panel also showed semicolons in the timecode. Then, down on the timeline, the timeline was shown as xx;xx;xx;xx while right next to that it said "Source xx:xx:xx:xx" with colons! So, if I go by the project panel, the video is DF. If I go by what it says down in the timeline, the video is NDF. As it turns out, subtitles and CC only match up if I use the NDF versions of them, not with the DF versions, which indicates that my file was NDF. So, in the end, I'd say that the way the timecode is represented in the project panel didn't mean anything, at least not in this case.

Two camera footage: one drop frame, one non-drop frame

We recently were delivered a batch of tapes for a two camera project that we're doing the post work on. The timecode was jammed to synch the two cameras. Unfortuantely, one of the cameras seems to be drop and the other non-drop. As a result, the tape that is showing as non-drop stops every couple of minutes for a timecode break in order to synch up with the jammed timecode.
The reality is that there is no break in footage in the sense that this footage was recorded as a real-time 30 minute presentation, but because timecode is being jammed, and because the tape was being recorded in non-drop frame, Final Cut cannot capture this footage in its entirety.
My only thought would be to capture through S-video out and place the footage on a timeline, and force the sequence timecode with the appropriate timecode.
Has anyone run into this issue before and know a better solution? Or if the above solution will work?

Update: Rather than S-Video, we're setting the FCP capture setting to non-controllable device. That will give it higher quality, and so far, that is capturing just fine without the breaks.

Drop-frame to non drop-frame error

I just upgraded to Final Cut Studio 2, FCP 5.0.1 and I get this error message with every single tape I try to capture: "you are about to capture Non-Drop Frame media from a device currently detecting Drop Frame media." So, I click OK and capture anyway. The media is captured and looks fine - no audio sync problems. Then in the middle of my batch, before the second clip, I get the following error message: a change in time code rate was detected during capture of clip." I click OK and it captures fine anyway. Then later I get the audio sample rate error message too - it says: "The audio sample rate on one or more of your captured files does not match the sample rate on your source tape." But I capture anyway and everything looks and sounds fine.
I tried changing decks. Same problem. I checked the tapes and they were recorded as droop-frame and at 48 KHz 16 bits, same setting I'm using (DV NTSC drop frame 48 KHz)
Does anyone know if this is a Final cut bug or a real problem I should be concerned about?

It's neither... if you used consumer gear to shoot with, you'll get errors like this because consumer formats such as HDV, and DV are plain not that precise, but normally, you can just ignore them. As long as you're set up to capture DV at 48k and you shot DV at 48k, normally there's no problems even if these error messages are recorded.
Jerry

I'm confused...what is drop frame vs. non-drop frame...

And why does it matter guys...?
How would I know what I recorded in? Is it on my camera settings, or on FCP5 settings? Where would I look to find out?
Thanks guys...
Jeremy

In NTSC video, since the actual playback rate is 29.97 fps, drop frame timecode accounts for it not really being 30fps... so the editor can actually come to real timing on the program.
If non drop timecode is used in a sequence setting, and you mark an in and out point on say a 30 minute program, it will report the wrong duration (as compared to actual time). Most all DV cameras record drop frame only, but it really wouldn't make a difference if these clips were non drop. It's the sequence settings for TC that would determine the actual length of the program. Unless you have a very high end camera (AKA over 5k new) it's doubtful you can change the TC type. It's just a numbering system difference, and there really aren't any frames actually dropped when you use drop frame TC. When you look at the camera's on screen display of TC, drop frame usually is noted by separating the numbers with semi colons where non drop uses colons. It varies a bit, but FCP will recongnize the proper code when you capture from the tapes... it's really a non issue with source material though. it's still NTSC video playing back at 29.97 fps drop frame code or not.
Jerry

Drop Frame or Non Drop Frame in HDV format

Hello folks,
I am still learning all new things about HDV, so I am wondering what is the correct frame setting when shooting in HDV. In DV I have always used drop frame, because 29.89 frame rate. But what about HDV? Is that the same idea, or is the frame rate different? And how does FCP recognize this?
Thank You,
K.

It doesn't matter. Shooting DF or NDF doesn't matter. The frame rate is the same, just the way the frames are counted is different:
http://www.csif.org/html/dropframe.html
This doesn't really matter when shooting, AFIAK.
Shane

Black frames/ flashes on playback and edit to tape

I am painfully getting a black flash rather than a frame in the video AND audio throughout play back and going to tape. it isnt a black frame on the timeline. Ive tried boosting the ram, cleaning up the hard drive, media share and media drive but still it happens randomly and 'usually' when im going to tape under pressure for time!! please please help if you can thanks

check on your audio / video settings that there isn't a tick beside 'different output for print to video' on the AV devices tab

Assamble , insert , and edit to tape whith blackmagic.

Hello , I have a macpro 5.1 with mavericks , 20 gb of ram and premier 2014 .
When I do an insert or assamble , always gets 2 black frames. Change the offset in device options but still the same
When edit to tape, the premier after 10 minutes or so , closes or freezes the video.
I have all applications closed and disconnected from the network.

check on your audio / video settings that there isn't a tick beside 'different output for print to video' on the AV devices tab

How best to Convert, and edit video tape to digital

I want to convert, and edit VHS and Betamax video tapes to digital. My research indicates that there are a number of ways to achieve this, including:
1. A video recorder with a hard disk and DVR (Which?)
2. The "pass through" feature on a MiniDV camcorder (Discussion Sites)
3. EyeTV 250 Plus (Magazine)
4. Canopus' (ADVC300), which “cleans and stabilises analogue video before conversion so the digital is a higher quality than the original analogue” (Magazine and Discussion Sites)
Some claim that an S-video connection is essential for best results.
Can an expert advise the best solution?

I have a Canopus ADVC-300 that I use when digitizing VHS and Hi8 material.
It works quite well. The included software allows you to adjust the quality of the image as it is being converted.
Connect the tape deck to the ADVC-300 using SVHS cable and an audio RCA cable then firewire between the ADVC-300 and your mac. Turn on everything and launch iMovie to capture the playing video stream.
If you have technical questions regarding iMovie and or iDVD, each has a specific forum here on the Apple Discussions site.
Good luck,
x

Edit to tape confusing drop frame and non drop frame

This is a re-creation of a dead thread I found from June 6, 2006. This is the exact problem this other user was having.
OS 10.4.7
FCP 5.0.4
Dual G5 2.5
4.5 GB RAM
KONALH
Trying to edit to a Sony DVW-A500 (Digibeta) in Drop Frame mode.
Read Below for deets.
Problem: When working with a drop-frame sequence, and editing to tape, the program is edited to the tape with an offset of 3 seconds and 18 frames at the end of one hour.
Reproducible: Yes.
Steps to Reproduce:
1. Create a drop-frame sequence.
2. Edit the sequence in step 1.
3. Perform an edit to tape with the sequence edited in step 2.
What should happen: The sequence should be edited to tape at the time it occurs in the timeline.
What does happen: The sequence is edited to the tape 3 seconds and 18 frames after it should be!
Other observations: 3 seconds and 18 frames is exactly how much time is not in an hour of drop-frame time when compared to non-drop frame time. If you drop two (2) frames in every minute that does not end in zero, the math works out to 2*54=108 dropped frames in an hour. For the sake of simple mathematics, lets say there are 30 frames in a second. So 108/30= 3 with a remainder of 18, or 3 seconds and 18 frames.
It's as if FCP is getting confused about drop and non-drop timecode when the sequence is drop-frame. If anyone can offer any insights, confirmation, or resolutions for what I am seeing, it would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading!

So is the timeline a drop frame timeline, starting at 1:00:00:00?
And then is the DBeta tape prestriped (at least enough to do an assemble edit) to start the program at 01:00:00:00?
In other words, is the FCP timeline timecode matching the Dbeta tape timecode in a 1:1 relationship before you attempt to Edit to Tape?
Thinking further: FCP can't really confuse the two timecodes, it's dependent on the operator to tell it what to do. When it outputs it's not outputing timecode or looking even really looking for timecode. It's looking for your IN point in the Edit to Tape tool.
Message was edited by: loyed256

What's the deal with Drop-Frame / Non-Drop-Frame Timecode?

I'm having trouble with 30fps Drop-Frame and 30fps Non-Drop-Frame timecode formats! I thought 29.97fps means 30fps Drop-Frame, but now I'm all confused.
I'm working with DSLR footage filmed with a frame rate of 29.97. For example, this one clip is listed as (in Project panel)
Media Start: 11:16:11:23
Media End: 11:22:42:22
Duration: 00:06:31:00
Frame Rate: 29.97fps
If I open this clip directly in Source Monitor, the timecode display (yellow, on lower left corner) says 11:16:11:23 at the beginning and 11:22:42:23 at the end. OK. But if I right-click on the timecode display, the pop-up indicates "Non-Drop-Frame"(!!). If I manually change that to "Drop-Frame", the start and end timecode would become 11:16:52:11 and 11:23:23:23, and the duration display (white, on lower right corner) becomes 6:31:12.
Now I create a new sequence of 1080p30, which has a 29.97fps time base. I right-click the yellow timecode display on the upper left corner of the Timeline, it says "30fps Drop-Frame". I drag the said clip onto the sequence. It occupies a length of 6:31:12. If I double-click the clip to open it in Source Monitor, now the Source Monitor timecode display indicates "Drop-Frame", and the start/end timecodes are 11:16:52:11 and 11:23:23:23. Huh??
Now I apply the "Timecode" effect on the clip. The timecode burn-in says 11:16:51:11 at the first frame and 11:23:23:22 at the last frame. I then go to the Effect Controls tab and look at the Timecode effect. It says
Format: SMPTE
Timecode Source: Media
Time Display: 30 Drop Frame
Just playing around, I switch "Timecode Source" to "Clip" - now the timecode burn-in goes from 00:00:00:00 to 00:06:31:11 - and then I switch it back to "Media". Now the Effect Controls tab says:
Format: SMPTE
Timecode Source: Media
Time Display: 30 Non-Drop Frame
And the timecode burn-in says 11:16:11:23 at the first frame and 11:22:42:22 at the last frame!
HUH??
Just for kickers, I switch "Timecode Source" to "Clip" again... Now "Time Display" stays on "30 Non-Drop Frame", and the timecode burn-in goes from 00:00:00:00 to 00:06:30:29.
What's the REAL length of this clip? Is it drop-frame or non-drop-frame? What are the REAL timecodes for it?
Also in a general sense, since I can change the "Time Display" field in the Timecode effect at any time, and change the Timecode display format of the Timeline at any time... How do I avoid creating mismatching timecodes??
Thanks in advance for any clarification!!

So obviously, only one of them could be "correct" in terms of reflecting what actually happened. The other one is slightly sped-up or slowed-down. You might say "oh that's a tiny difference, it doesn't matter".
Zooropa75, just for matter of clarification I want to make sure you understand that no matter which you use, it won't actually speed up or slow down your video. TC, wether it is non-drop or drop, is only a counting system. For that reason, it doesn't even matter which you use to reference edits, so long as everyone editing uses the same TC basis.
If you want actual time accurate TC, as was already mentioned, use drop-frame.
I'm going to kill two birds here. The "drag clip to new sequence button" action I was referring to in my earlier post is dragging your clip to the icon seen below. It should create a timeline using your videos format.
Also, remember I recommended looking in the manuel for "actual" time used? You can see below a snapshot I took from your cameras manuel. You're not shooting in whole numbers for anything unless you're using the 50hz system and shooting at 50p. That is the ONLY exception. ...and this is good for everyone to remember. Very few US digital cameras shoot frames per second in whole numbers. If it says you're shooting in 24p, 30p, 60p, etc. ad nauseum, you can bet your biscuits it's actually the multi-decimal NTCS counterparts like you see below And that should be your final answer. *chuckle*

Drop Frame vs. Non Drop Frame

I am a little confused about setting the option in FCP before capture for NDF/DF.
I read somewhere that all footage captured on DV is NDF, but I'm not sure if that is accurate. What if you don't know if something was shot in DF or NDF? Yikes!
I have some 24p footage and some 24p adv. that I will be importing into a 23.98 timeline (using Cinema Tools for the standard 24p footage). Later on I will be bringing in some "regular" miniDV footage (non-progressive, I guess interlaced) and whatever format I can get archival footage on - and I have NO IDEA whether that would be DF or NDF.
I was planning on capturing with the appropriate easy set-up options for each type of footage, but am wondering if the DF/NDF issue will cause a problem.
If I set the whole thing for NDF, and something was shot as DF, what might occur? Should I be scared since I have no idea which one I should go with?!
Feeling a little stupid but better I ask, I suppose -
thank you for any brilliant insights and/or advice.
(bringing in footage first on a Sony DSR-20, then switching to a DSR-11 when I the owner of the DSR-20 takes it back)
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD

Thank you for your responses.
I know a bit about what happens with drop frame or non-drop frame, and that essentially for NTSC at 29.97 I can choose either DF or NDF, but I'm using a 23.98 timeline, not sure if that makes the answer different. I'm trying to extend my understanding of DF/NDF to think about what will happen if something was shot in DF but captured in NDF or vice-versa, and whether working in a 23.98 timeline will mean I should pick one over the other.
Also I'm not clear about whether my choice to keep the timeline DF or NDF will affect my output choice.
The embarrassing thing is that I was the shooter on a lot of my footage (mostly a Panasonic DVX100a, plus 6 hours on a DVX100) - never remember setting DF or NDF. oops. Also as I mentioned I have no idea what the archival stuff will be at, but I think I can import that into whatever I have my timeline set at --
sorry I'm still foggy about the implications of choosing DF or NDF for my capture setting, and which one I should choose.
15" Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1 GHz, 1 GB SDRAM, 60 GB HD

Drop Frame vs. Non Drop Frame Timecode in DVDSP3

The manual is rather spare in its discussion of the issue of timecode, but it does say that the first video asset determines whether the timecode in DVDSP is drop frame or non drop frame.
Question 1: Does this refer to the first video asset in the V1 track or the first video asset imported into the project?
Question 2: If video is encoded using Compressor prior to import into DVDSP, is the choice of drop frame or non drop frame set by Compressor, or does it automatically use the timecode inherent in the original video?
Question 3: Does the DVD spec require a particular timecode (or is either acceptable)? In other words, will DVDSP convert non drop frame video assets to drop frame (or vice versa) during the build process in order to conform to spec?
I am having timecode issues and I am trying to narrow down the culprit. It can be either FCP, Compressor or DVDSP, or some combination of the three. Since my timeline in DVDSP has a semicolon separator between the minute and second values, I am assuming DVDSP is operating using drop frame timecode.
How can I confirm the timecode of my video assets? Is there a way to get this information? I tried opening the video in QT and viewing properties but I could not find the info. QT does not seem to display frames so I cannot check the separator to see if it is a semicolon or not.
Thanks in advance for any and all help.
TN

How can I confirm the timecode of my video assets? Is
there a way to get this information? I tried opening
the video in QT and viewing properties but I could
not find the info. QT does not seem to display frames
so I cannot check the separator to see if it is a
semicolon or not.
Thanks in advance for any and all help.
In the browser in Final Cut it will tell you all the information regarding your video assets or clips.
DVDSP lets you pick what time code you want in encode window and will conform your clips accordingly.
May I ask what kind of timecode issues you are having?
Dual G5, iMac G5, PowerBook G4, IBook G4, G3, 604e Mac OS X (10.3.4)

Drop-Frame v. Non-Drop Frame and Edit to Tape

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