DV NTSD drop-frame vs. non-drop-frame??

My impression has always been that DV NTSC is non-drop frame. I'm having to capture a 100 hours of DV tapes from a Sony WV-DR7 deck. FCP capture is giving me this warning:
"You are about to capture Non-Drop Frame media from a device currently detecting or configured for Drop Frame media. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships."
The Sony is all in Japanese, and the rough translation manual does not mention drop frame \ non-drop frame setting choices on the deck.
Would anyone have any suggestions or recommendations?
Ben

Sorry to be confusing~~~~
What I meant was, since I wasn't sure if the VTR you are using actually shows the timecode window, or just a timecode counter (the Sony DSR-11's display does not show the colon/semicolon difference in the display that is supered on the non-digital video outs), I thought the quickest way to assess what flavor of TC you had was to play the tape and use "Capture Now" to capture a few seconds. Then you can look in the bin, check the media start column and see if there are semi-colons or colons. This would be helpful particularly if FCP is balking at capturing from your logged marks.
The other thing I was talking about was a case where I had been given DVCam copies of camera masters, to use for a rough cut. Because these tapes were work prints, they used old DVCam tapes. One of the tapes had originally had DF material on it. When the tape op made the workprint, he started recording the new NDF material about 10 seconds into the tape, he therefore left 10 seconds of DF bars at the head of the reel (the old material). I put the tape in a DSR-11, fast wound up to picture, and started logging. When I was at the end of the reel, I hit rewind on the machine so it would rewind while I was clearing up spelling errors, etc. The machine backed all the way to head of the tape, into the DF area.
So when I hit batch capture, the machine reported back to FCP that it had a tape with the correct name loaded, but the time code was in the incorrect format - the message you received. It took a while to figure it out, but when I wound the tape forward, so that it was in the picture portion of the reel, the machine was then outputting the code that FCP was expecting. So by "parking" the deck in the picture portion of the tape, it would cue correctly from the logged point.
Hope this explains it. hope you have a simple solution, too.
Message was edited by: Meg The Dog to fix typo

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Warning: Sometimes Final Cut exports a non-drop sequence as drop-frame

Just a heads up. This has been maddening for me. On occasion I will export my program for compressor and it will be drop frame when it should be non-drop.
These are sequences which have exported fine before. There is no rhyme or reason to it. Tonight I've lost about 2 hours because of this. At least I knew to check it before compressing the file and sending it out to our contractor because it has happened in the past.
By the way shutting down FCP and opening it up again seems to cure the problem.

System req's for fcp 5
General System Requirements
Macintosh computer with 867MHz or faster PowerPC G4, PowerPC G5, Intel Core Duo processor, or Intel Xeon processor
HD features require 1GHz or faster single or dual processors (authoring HD DVDs requires a PowerPC G5, Intel Core Duo processor, or Intel Xeon processor)
512MB of RAM; 1GB of RAM for HD features (2GB recommended)
Display with 1024-by-768 (or higher) resolution
AGP Quartz Extreme or PCI Express graphics card (Final Cut Studio is not supported on systems using the Intel Extreme Graphics 950 GMA)
Motion requires the standard graphics card found in any Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, iMac Intel Core Duo, Power Mac G5, iMac G5, a 1.25 GHz or faster PowerBook G4, or a 1.25 GHz or faster flat-panel iMac.
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How to tell if video is drop frame or non-drop frame in Encore? Need info to use correct SCC file.

Hi,
Thanks in advance. I am using Encore DVD 2.0 to add closed captions to video. I have both a drop frame SCC file and a non-drop frame SCC file. How can I tell which one to use? Can I tell from the way the timecode looks on the timeline? Do I look at the timeline timecode or the source timecode? For example, in a random area of video the timeline says 00;02;50;24 while the source says 00:02:50:20.
Thanks.

Thanks jbowden and Jim for your help. Although I'm still not real clear how Encore notes DF vs NDF (more on that below), I got my problem solved.
Regarding DF vs NDF in Encore DVD...There doesn't seem to be a real consistent method of identifying which is which. For example, Jim suggested that I look in the Project panel for the colons vs semicolons. There, the video file timecode was shown as xx;xx;xx;xx with semicolons, apparently suggesting that it is DF. However, the timeline and audio file listed in the project panel also showed semicolons in the timecode. Then, down on the timeline, the timeline was shown as xx;xx;xx;xx while right next to that it said "Source xx:xx:xx:xx" with colons! So, if I go by the project panel, the video is DF. If I go by what it says down in the timeline, the video is NDF. As it turns out, subtitles and CC only match up if I use the NDF versions of them, not with the DF versions, which indicates that my file was NDF. So, in the end, I'd say that the way the timecode is represented in the project panel didn't mean anything, at least not in this case.

"Capturing drop-frame media into a non-drop frame clip" error message

I've logged tapes from what will partly be a 3-camera multi-clip project, and have begun to batch capture.
Logged all but one tape some weeks ago, and captured one tape at the time.
Went to batch capture the balance, today. First tape capture went fine. On trying to capture the next tape in the batch I'm getting this message as FCP begins the process:
WARNING: You are about to capture drop-frame media to a non drop-frame clip. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships.
In analyzing the situation, the only reason I can think of for the error message is that some of the reels were logged on a DSR-11 that had been set to NON drop-frame, and for which I didn't have the remote control to change the setting.
I haven't run into this while capturing other clips, but those may have been captured via a different deck that does only drop-frame.
So, I'm looking at next steps:
1: Capture anyway and possibly regret that I did that.
(One person on another list reported the same problem, that he had ignored it without any obvious complications.)
2: Relog all the problem clips using my current deck, speeding up the process by using the "go to" window to drive the tape to the existing in and out points and then marking i/o's...
Or...
Suggestions?
Thanks,
Ted.

We've been seeing this stupid error message since v3 and it's never mattered in the slightest. It is always incorrect, anyway. The clips are always drop and the sequences are always drop. It's an FCP programming glitch/bug/screwup. Someday they may or may not fix the mechanism that triggers the warning.
bogiesan

Edit to tape confusing drop frame and non drop frame

This is a re-creation of a dead thread I found from June 6, 2006. This is the exact problem this other user was having.
OS 10.4.7
FCP 5.0.4
Dual G5 2.5
4.5 GB RAM
KONALH
Trying to edit to a Sony DVW-A500 (Digibeta) in Drop Frame mode.
Read Below for deets.
Problem: When working with a drop-frame sequence, and editing to tape, the program is edited to the tape with an offset of 3 seconds and 18 frames at the end of one hour.
Reproducible: Yes.
Steps to Reproduce:
1. Create a drop-frame sequence.
2. Edit the sequence in step 1.
3. Perform an edit to tape with the sequence edited in step 2.
What should happen: The sequence should be edited to tape at the time it occurs in the timeline.
What does happen: The sequence is edited to the tape 3 seconds and 18 frames after it should be!
Other observations: 3 seconds and 18 frames is exactly how much time is not in an hour of drop-frame time when compared to non-drop frame time. If you drop two (2) frames in every minute that does not end in zero, the math works out to 2*54=108 dropped frames in an hour. For the sake of simple mathematics, lets say there are 30 frames in a second. So 108/30= 3 with a remainder of 18, or 3 seconds and 18 frames.
It's as if FCP is getting confused about drop and non-drop timecode when the sequence is drop-frame. If anyone can offer any insights, confirmation, or resolutions for what I am seeing, it would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading!

So is the timeline a drop frame timeline, starting at 1:00:00:00?
And then is the DBeta tape prestriped (at least enough to do an assemble edit) to start the program at 01:00:00:00?
In other words, is the FCP timeline timecode matching the Dbeta tape timecode in a 1:1 relationship before you attempt to Edit to Tape?
Thinking further: FCP can't really confuse the two timecodes, it's dependent on the operator to tell it what to do. When it outputs it's not outputing timecode or looking even really looking for timecode. It's looking for your IN point in the Edit to Tape tool.
Message was edited by: loyed256

Problems working with non drop and drop frame DVCPRO HD material in project

I am having playback problems with my non drop frame HDV material. It stutters.
All of our projects up to this point have been shot in drop frame. During our last shoot however the Bcam was recorded in non drop. I loaded both the non drop bcam tapes as non drop and the drop frame Acam tapes as drop. All of the drop frame Acam material plays back fine in the source viewer and the timeline. The non drop Bcam material seems to randomly stutter in the source viewer, or causes the system to serve a "dropped frames warning" in the timeline.
Is there a bug with fcp 5.1.2 about mixing non drop and drop frame material in a project. Or is this not possible? They are the same frame rate.
I have exported the non drop clips in a drop frame timeline and re-imported them as drop frame clips - thus correcting the problem. Is this the best solution?
All of the material was loaded thru a kona card as 1080i60 DVCPROHD 29.97
I had no problems capturing the material as long as I used the corrrect firewire setting (ndf vs df).
Anyone have a problem like this? I would greatly appreciate a response.
Thanks,
Mark

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=10014&p=2&sp=141&id =78439
The camera can record 60i, and 30F:
"HDV 1080, 50i/60i/30F/25F Recording and Playback capable"
Look at the clips...look at their frame rates. What do they say? Is one 59.94? Is the other 29.97?
You would never need to render if you mixed NDF and DF footage. The footage runs at the same speed, on the TC numbers are different. But, you would need to render if your footage had different frame rates. LOOK AT THE CLIPS.
Shane

Digitizing Pre-Logged Clips: Drop Frame/Non-Drop Frame Discrepency

I have about 100hrs of DV NTSC footage that has been logged and now I need to capture it.
Everything seemed good to go:
• I ctrl+click the clip intended to capture
• Select 'batch capture' (it initializes)
• Settings are (apple setting) DV NTSC 48kHz
• I click okay and I get an error message that reads:
"WARNING: You are about to capture drop-frame media to a non-drop frame clip. If you proceed, you may experience changes in logged in and out points, problems relinking media, or removal of master clip relationships."
Now, the setting noted above is set at 29.97 not 30.
I tried to see if there was anything I could select/deselect in the logged clips and came up dry.
I made duplicated the apple setting and changed the fps to 30. This yielded no error message but did on the second clip I tried.
Does anyone have any idea on how I should be troubleshooting this?
Due to the high volume of footage, and workflow schedule, I'd really rather not screw this up.
I turn to you my faithful FCP gurus.
Thanks.
Ian
p.s. I'm running FCP v.5.1.4

Just check your timecode accuracy before you get any further... i.e. does the timecode in the captured clip match the code that's on the tape. If so, you're good to go on... if not, I'd recapture using the proper TC... it's pretty easy if you do it from the tape in the Log and Capture window.
Jerry

Non Drop frame capture causing out of sync clip?

Hi, All,
I've been having trouble with sync issues on an hour long tape capture.
The material was captured from a Canon consumer DV cam (z80) using firewire into my powerbook g4. (The material on the dv tape was originally recorded in Video 8mm and transfered to the Canon via firewire from a modern Sony Digital 8 camera.)
The sync on the DV tape looks fine when I play it back through the Canon camera. So I'm guessing that I might be losing sync because the camera is dropping frames that don't want to be dropped. I tried to change the video capture settings to non drop frame (in the device control tab of FCP5's audio video settings preference window,) but as soon as I start the capture from the canon, the settings on my log capture window automatically revert back to drop frame. (I don't know this for a fact, but I do notice that the ":" in the timecode box turns back to ";" every time I start the capture.
Does this sound like it is, in fact, a drop frame problem? And if so, is there any hope of getting a canon consumer camcorder to capture at non drop frame rates?

Well, after trying most of the suggestions here, I did find a reasonably hassle free workaround to capturing the hour and fifteen minute footage of 8 bit 32 kHz video to FCP with minimal sync slippage over the length of the footage.
I finally gave up on capturing the material in FCP and instead hooked the canon z80 up to an old version of Toast Platinum 6 I had on my computer. Toast creates a raw quicktime movie file with the extension .dv. Toast then allows you to edit that quicktime file, add chapters, button pictures, etc. thereby making a new file to replace the raw QT it first created. After some experimentation, I discovered that the original raw QT file Toast creates can simply be dragged intact to the FCP browser window, where it becomes a clip with minimal sync problems. I would caution against trying to use the second improved QT file that Toast creates after you've edited your file, as this second QT movie seems less stable than the raw one it first creates.
A final caveat for Toast users. Make sure you set the preferences so that they don't DELETE the original file it creates. There are settings that will tell Toast to do just that either After a Day, After a Week, When You Close the Program or Never. I'd set that to Never, since it can be highly unpleasant to discover that your program has deleted the very file you were planning to work with.
Hope this is of some help.
Thanks to all who pitched in and offered suggestions. Your help has been invaluable!
I now mark this issue Solved. Or at least as Solved as I plan to get it!

What's the deal with Drop-Frame / Non-Drop-Frame Timecode?

I'm having trouble with 30fps Drop-Frame and 30fps Non-Drop-Frame timecode formats! I thought 29.97fps means 30fps Drop-Frame, but now I'm all confused.
I'm working with DSLR footage filmed with a frame rate of 29.97. For example, this one clip is listed as (in Project panel)
Media Start: 11:16:11:23
Media End: 11:22:42:22
Duration: 00:06:31:00
Frame Rate: 29.97fps
If I open this clip directly in Source Monitor, the timecode display (yellow, on lower left corner) says 11:16:11:23 at the beginning and 11:22:42:23 at the end. OK. But if I right-click on the timecode display, the pop-up indicates "Non-Drop-Frame"(!!). If I manually change that to "Drop-Frame", the start and end timecode would become 11:16:52:11 and 11:23:23:23, and the duration display (white, on lower right corner) becomes 6:31:12.
Now I create a new sequence of 1080p30, which has a 29.97fps time base. I right-click the yellow timecode display on the upper left corner of the Timeline, it says "30fps Drop-Frame". I drag the said clip onto the sequence. It occupies a length of 6:31:12. If I double-click the clip to open it in Source Monitor, now the Source Monitor timecode display indicates "Drop-Frame", and the start/end timecodes are 11:16:52:11 and 11:23:23:23. Huh??
Now I apply the "Timecode" effect on the clip. The timecode burn-in says 11:16:51:11 at the first frame and 11:23:23:22 at the last frame. I then go to the Effect Controls tab and look at the Timecode effect. It says
Format: SMPTE
Timecode Source: Media
Time Display: 30 Drop Frame
Just playing around, I switch "Timecode Source" to "Clip" - now the timecode burn-in goes from 00:00:00:00 to 00:06:31:11 - and then I switch it back to "Media". Now the Effect Controls tab says:
Format: SMPTE
Timecode Source: Media
Time Display: 30 Non-Drop Frame
And the timecode burn-in says 11:16:11:23 at the first frame and 11:22:42:22 at the last frame!
HUH??
Just for kickers, I switch "Timecode Source" to "Clip" again... Now "Time Display" stays on "30 Non-Drop Frame", and the timecode burn-in goes from 00:00:00:00 to 00:06:30:29.
What's the REAL length of this clip? Is it drop-frame or non-drop-frame? What are the REAL timecodes for it?
Also in a general sense, since I can change the "Time Display" field in the Timecode effect at any time, and change the Timecode display format of the Timeline at any time... How do I avoid creating mismatching timecodes??
Thanks in advance for any clarification!!

So obviously, only one of them could be "correct" in terms of reflecting what actually happened. The other one is slightly sped-up or slowed-down. You might say "oh that's a tiny difference, it doesn't matter".
Zooropa75, just for matter of clarification I want to make sure you understand that no matter which you use, it won't actually speed up or slow down your video. TC, wether it is non-drop or drop, is only a counting system. For that reason, it doesn't even matter which you use to reference edits, so long as everyone editing uses the same TC basis.
If you want actual time accurate TC, as was already mentioned, use drop-frame.
I'm going to kill two birds here. The "drag clip to new sequence button" action I was referring to in my earlier post is dragging your clip to the icon seen below. It should create a timeline using your videos format.
Also, remember I recommended looking in the manuel for "actual" time used? You can see below a snapshot I took from your cameras manuel. You're not shooting in whole numbers for anything unless you're using the 50hz system and shooting at 50p. That is the ONLY exception. ...and this is good for everyone to remember. Very few US digital cameras shoot frames per second in whole numbers. If it says you're shooting in 24p, 30p, 60p, etc. ad nauseum, you can bet your biscuits it's actually the multi-decimal NTCS counterparts like you see below And that should be your final answer. *chuckle*

Why SDK always generates non-drop-frame clips?

I've created a sequence in Premiere: NTSC DV, Codec: DV NTSC, 29.97fps, 720x480, Drop-Frame Timecode.
When I try to render a clip with MXF OP1a preset file (DV25 NTSC) by SDK, it always generates non-drop-frame clip.
If I use 'File->Export->Media...' with same preset file, it's drop-frame exactely.
'Drop-frame' seems to be an option from sequence and there is no place to config it in preset settings dialog.
How can I generate drop-frame clip by SDK (exporter controller)?

I also meet the same problem.
I have created a 'Export Controller' plug-in. when export media using this plug-in, and choose the preset 'DV 25 NTSC', MXF OP1a.
Confirm that sequence setting is 29.97 drop-frame.
But export mxf file is always NDF.
However, using Export->Media, and choose MXF OP1a + DV 25 NTSC, will export DF mxf file.
Could you help to double check it?
I have check from code, it will get correct result (DF or NDF) after call function 'GetTimecodeDropFrame' in 'Sequence Info Suite' , so what's the problem would be?
Thanks,
Iris

Sony DSR PD-170 Non-Drop Frame Footage

I recorded footage on my PD-170 in non-drop frame (NDR) and went to capture my footage into Final Cut Pro. I changed my sequence settings to NDR and I went to Batch Capture some clips and after each one it told me that my PD-170 was in drop-frame mode and that by trying to capture NDR footage off a camera set to drop-frame I was likely to get some timecode issues.
Anyone seen this before and/or know how to fix it? Thanks.

We get the same message with our PD170 (and also PD150) using drop frame footage. We have never had any time code issues by going ahead with the capture.

Two camera footage: one drop frame, one non-drop frame

We recently were delivered a batch of tapes for a two camera project that we're doing the post work on. The timecode was jammed to synch the two cameras. Unfortuantely, one of the cameras seems to be drop and the other non-drop. As a result, the tape that is showing as non-drop stops every couple of minutes for a timecode break in order to synch up with the jammed timecode.
The reality is that there is no break in footage in the sense that this footage was recorded as a real-time 30 minute presentation, but because timecode is being jammed, and because the tape was being recorded in non-drop frame, Final Cut cannot capture this footage in its entirety.
My only thought would be to capture through S-video out and place the footage on a timeline, and force the sequence timecode with the appropriate timecode.
Has anyone run into this issue before and know a better solution? Or if the above solution will work?

Update: Rather than S-Video, we're setting the FCP capture setting to non-controllable device. That will give it higher quality, and so far, that is capturing just fine without the breaks.

Capturing non-drop-frame as drop-frame??

I have to capture a bunch of amateur tapes shot with various cameras. Ultimate destination is NTSC DV. I have a sense that if I capture the non-drop-frame in a standard NTSC DV setup that I might have some buggy problems. Or at least the batch capture is telling me so.
I've never come across this problem before. What should I do? I'm just trying to build a movie database for a CEO using all the stuff he's collected from various sources - wanting all the captured material to be easily editable in FCP.
Any help would be most appreciated,
Ben

Well, after trying most of the suggestions here, I did find a reasonably hassle free workaround to capturing the hour and fifteen minute footage of 8 bit 32 kHz video to FCP with minimal sync slippage over the length of the footage.
I finally gave up on capturing the material in FCP and instead hooked the canon z80 up to an old version of Toast Platinum 6 I had on my computer. Toast creates a raw quicktime movie file with the extension .dv. Toast then allows you to edit that quicktime file, add chapters, button pictures, etc. thereby making a new file to replace the raw QT it first created. After some experimentation, I discovered that the original raw QT file Toast creates can simply be dragged intact to the FCP browser window, where it becomes a clip with minimal sync problems. I would caution against trying to use the second improved QT file that Toast creates after you've edited your file, as this second QT movie seems less stable than the raw one it first creates.
A final caveat for Toast users. Make sure you set the preferences so that they don't DELETE the original file it creates. There are settings that will tell Toast to do just that either After a Day, After a Week, When You Close the Program or Never. I'd set that to Never, since it can be highly unpleasant to discover that your program has deleted the very file you were planning to work with.
Hope this is of some help.
Thanks to all who pitched in and offered suggestions. Your help has been invaluable!
I now mark this issue Solved. Or at least as Solved as I plan to get it!

Drop Frame being read as Non-Drop Frame

Hey,
I'm working in FCP HD 5.1.4 and our guys are shooting audio at drop frame, and video at drop frame, and yet when we import the media into FCP, the Video is in Drop frame, but the audio appears to be Non-drop so we're getting BAD sync (some clips 30 seconds, others up to a min.). We're using TOD T/C and it's really important that we convert it cuz we'll shoot 8 hr days, and the first few clips arn't that bad but after so many hours, the sync gets worse and worse.
We're using XDCAM Sony PDW-1500 deck for the video transfer and the audio is BWFs from an external Audio receiver, then it's backed up on lacie drives (prob using compressor) then we're syncing in FCP.
Any thoughts?
Fraser

FraserPost, according to Apple in the Late-breaking FCP news PDF on pg.4, Broadcast Wave Audio Files imported will always be interpreted with non-drop frame TC.
Highlight the clip in the bin, choose Modify Menu option and choose Timecode. You can then change it to drop frame in the options panel.
Then your material should synch up.
For future reference but still notable, if you import an aiff, mp3 or another type of audio file without TC, the file will create TC dictated by the Sequence preset setting. This I found out the hard way. One has to shut down FCP and start it up again for the change to take effect on material imported.
Macbook Pro 2.16G Intel Core Duo Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Drop frame video to non-drop frame clip warning (again)

So my most recent search of why this warning comes up reveals no good answers (unless someone can point me to a thread I overlooked...cuz I can't narrow it down without getting threads about folks who have gotten dropped frames during capture, which isn't the same situation)...
I shoot on an XL2 (drop frame) and capture with a DSR-11. Once in a while I will finish going through log and capture (in the log and capture window), setting ins, outs, etc. but I go to batch capture and it gives me the warning. All my ins/outs have semi-colons, I haven't changed the setting on my camera since I started using it more than 18 months ago, and it doesn't happen all the time. I do have the "abort capture on dropped frames" box unchecked as well (if that matters).
99.99% of the time, I've captured and there's no problems with syncing or anything. Thoughts?
Thanks,
Jonathan

If I recall right someone suggest to have your tape playing while opening Log and Capture, but I might recall wrong
I already have the "Abort on dropped frames" and "report dropped frames" unchecked.
Don't be mistaken: Dropped frames are a totally different issue from non-drop and drop frame timecode.
Drop frame timecode drops (or better: skips) timcodenumbers while counting the videoframes. That is a system to compensate for the 29,97 frames per second in order to calculate the correct length of a clip.
Dropped frames (as in "Abort on dropped frames" and "report dropped frames") is an error. Due to some reason the hardware isn't capable to record/digitize every single videoframe to your harddisk. e.g. Your captured file will have 2000 frames, while your footage on tape had 2003. Three frames were dropped then during capture. And your video will noticeble stutter at these points.
So I'd strongly recommend to do check the "Abort on dropped frames" and "report dropped frames"-options. You don't want stuttering video do you. So if your hardware couldn't handle the videofeed somehow, it would resp. abort capture or warn you that it happened.
Rienk

DV NTSD drop-frame vs. non-drop-frame??

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