DVCPRO HD 29.97 vs 59.94

i hope this is not a stupid question. i recently had a shoot where we shot DVCPRO HD at 30p. When I ingested the video from Log and Transfer, it came in at 59.94. Should my timeline be DVCPRO HD 720 P60 or DVCPRO HD 720 P30? I made a timeline of 720 P60 and edited this way but can not view it on my sony (non HD) monitor thru firewire. Is there a standard way to bring in the footage in L and T? Should pull down be checked or not? I had a problem with some clips so I removed the checkmark. Last question..can I copy and paste my DVCPRO HD 59.94 timeline into a DVCPRO HD 29.97 timeline (in order to view off my monitor) without any issue? Thanks.

we record at 720 30p (not native as i recall) but in the bin, the clip info says 720 59.94.
Yes....exactly. Sorry...but I have said this again and agian. NO MATTER WHAT FRAME RATE SETTING AT 720P YOU CHOOSE...BARRING THE NATIVE SETTINGS...IT WILL BE RECORDED AT 720p60...at 59.94fps. ALWAYS. 24p...30p...60p...will be 59.94. Because 720p is a 59.94 format.
But if you shoot P2 in one of the NATIVE formats it will record in THEIR frame rates...24p for example will record 24 ACTUAL FPS...at 23.98. 30p will be 30fps, at 29.97fps. If you shoot 30p...30 NORMAL p...it will be recorded at 59.94fps.
You did NOT shoot 30pN...so your footage, at 30p, is recorded at 59.94fps...because that is the frame rate of that format.
does that mean that the checkbox was unchecked and it was just brought in at a different fps?
No. It was recorded at 59.94fps. The camera recorded it at 59.94fps, because that is THE FORMAT OF DVCPRO HD 720p. 59.94fps. Period.
if so, what impact does that have editing that material at 59.94 on a 720 30p timeline?
You are removing every other frame...and have to render when done. Since with 30p every frame is doubled, removing them won't really have much of an impact at all. If you need to deliver 59.94, then you are hosed. But from all the posts you have given, I doubt you will be doing anything beyond DVD or web. So don't worry about it. Edit in the 30p setting if you want.
any issues i will have to contend with?
Not knowing ANYTHING about what you are doing. That's a pretty big issue. Sorry, but you just seem to shoot and capture and then ask questions later. You don't study the camera manual to see what all the settings are (and the camera comes with a great book by Barry Green...you should be reading that)...you don't seem to know anything about FCP. No reading of the manual there. And dispite all of the advice we give seems to go over your head. And we all explain the most basic things, in the simpliest way possible.
You really need to stop trying to edit, and go somewhere and intern...assist. Learn on the job. Have people show you how things work. You are jumping in feet first without any clue what you are doing. If I went and bought a hammer, nails, and lumber...and without ANY training whatsoever, decided to build a house...It'd be a disaster. I wouldn't have any supports at angles (ok, so I know that much), I wouldn't know how far to put the beams, the struts, how to anchor them to the base, how to make doorways or windows...how to add electrical systems, plumbing...roofing. But if I went and APPRENTICED...then I'd learn from the bottom up...on the job, from people who know what they are doing.
Editing is a craft...a complicated craft. If yo just grabbed a handicam and used iMovie...then you'd doing fine...simple editing and shooting. but grabbing a camera that shoots 82 different formats, 4 different frame rates...you are digging yourself DEEP into a hole. You need to get a grasp of the basics before you go mucking about in different frame rates.
i believe the checkbox (pulldown) is what is turning that 30p into 59.94, correct?
No. REMOVING means to "take away." If you shot 30fps and then ended up with 59.94 (60) fps...that would be ADDING frames, right? No. Pulldown refers to getting 24fps into a 29.97 format. Film to video tape. SO you can only remove pulldown from a 30 frame format...in the case of HD, that would be 1080i. 108oi runs at 29.97fps. And if you shot 24p...it would be 24p with pulldown in a 29.97 frame rate. If you REMOVE PULLDOWN from that...29.97, NOT 59.94, you'd get 23.98.
Did what I say make no sense? Then you need to not be dealing with it. You need to keep things simple, or intern somewhere that will teach you.
also, when you say cadence, what would be noticable?
If you shot 30p...but at 59.94...then used it in a 30p sequence? No, you won't notice anything.
thanks for your patience here.
Sorry...it is gone. I had it, but it is gone. I am going to restrain myself from answering your questions again. I think that a short answer will do, but because you lack a basic knowledge of any of this, it doesn't work. It doesn't sink in.
Shane

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HDCam to DVCPro HD Green screen---best way to go?

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If you dub it to DVCPROHD, that's where the "damage" is done... so won't make any difference capturing thru HD SDI or FireWire quality wise... But stay at 1080... don't go down to 720... as long as that machine of yours plays back 1080... better look into that for sure.
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Jerry
Message was edited by: Jerry Hofmann

Possible to edit DVCPro HD footage in iMovie?

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Cinema Tools doesn't recognize pulldown cadence on 24p DVCPRO 50

Hi everyone, I'm hoping someone can give me a couple suggestions on this...
I've been capturing 24p material for a documentary from different sources and with different pulldown cadences: DV @ 24p and 24p Advanced, and DVCPRO 50 @ 24p.
The extra frames from the two DV types get removed properly, but not from the DVCPRO 50. I take a clip into Cinema Tools and hit 'Rev Telecine..' (Automated so no options to choose from) and it gives me a 23.98 clip with the what should be the C frame interlaced. (A B C/D D)
It looks like CT is removing 2:3:3:2 'advanced' pulldown and not the normal 2:3:2:3, like it's reading the metadata in the clip wrong. Does anyone know a way to manually set the type of pulldown--either in Cinema Tools or within the metadata of the clip itself?
Thanks in advance,
Will
Dual 2.7 GHz G5, 4.5 GB RAM Mac OS X (10.4.2) FCP 5.03, Cinema Tools 3.03

I didn't know therre was an Automated way either until working on this project, and maybe it's a new setting in Cinema Tools 3. The manual says that CT will recognize the pulldown on the clip automatically when it was shot in a 24p video camera, that this information gets embedded in the clip. The dialog box it gives you for the automatic reverse telecine has no options at all, and all my clips started on an A frame for the possibility of doing all as a batch.
I may have found what happened, (although not how to fix it). My capture setting had Remove Advanced Pulldown checked, and the tapes were recorded with regular pulldown. In my experience with DV footage this has never mattered, it would remove it if it could and if not leave the clip alone.
It looks like there's a bug somewhere in the DVCPRO 50 capture process--that the clip is has the 24p Advanced markers embedded even though it is regular 24p, and so Cinema Tools treats it improperly and removes the wrong frames:
24p Advanced (2:3:3:2) A B B/C C D 29.97 Footage
24p (2:3:2:3) A B C/B C/D D
I I 0 I I (CT removing 2:3:3:2 Pulldown)
24p Advanced A B C D
24p *my result* A B C/D D 23.98 Footage
Has anyone else encountered this bug? Any work arounds known?
Thanks,
Will

Cannot master to tape using Panasonic AJ-D95-dc DVCPRO 50 deck

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I tried to explain however that mastering to tape is an assemble edit, not an insert, but he seemed pretty sure that I was not going to get FCP to work with this deck. Even with the proper Panasonic protocols set correctly.
On each attempt, the deck would preroll before the edit point, stop an blink an error code. I don't have the code handy. But I figure if anyone writes in and says "yes, you should be able to make this work" or "no, you can't", that's a start. Panasonic is my next place to inquire.
Thanks so much for your time.

There is no Master to Tape function in FCP.
Are you trying to "Print to Video," or "Edit to Tape?"
What are you trying? Are you blacking some of the tape first to get timecode, then doing an Edit to Tape from there? Or are you trying to simply Print to Video?

Can Premiere Pro 1.5 accept footage from DVCPRO 50 tape?

I'm trying to figure out whether Premiere Pro 1.5 can import footage shot on DVCPRO 50 (that's physical tape, not P2 card) natively? Or would I have to go an analog-digital route?

>DVCPRO 50 (that's physical tape, not P2 card) natively? Or would I have to go an analog-digital route?
If that is analog tape, you will not be able to directly import with PPro... you will need an analog converter
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How to dub and preserve CC on DVCPro 50?

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If I have a clip with CC (either VAUX data or Line
21), I play it in Final Cut, going out to my deck
through FW, and have a television hooked up to my
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If it's Line 21, no. FireWire-transportable formats don't carry the data lines.
If it's VAUX, yes. If your program was recorded properly to the deck with CC, then it should be in the VAUX data and should pass from deck to deck and through a capture and output just fine. Again: as long as there is no processing dine while it's in the computer.
I would think the simplest thing to do at this point would be to just try it. Capture via FireWire. Play back through FW and the deck to the TV. Turn captions on on the TV.
If you don't see them then try recording and then playing back. It's possible your deck won't pass them in real time.
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Digitizing **** - FCP 4.0 and a DVCPRO 50 deck/external FW 800 drive

In digitizing ****. Working on documentary project shot 720x480p @24fps. DVCPRO 50, coming in through the deck's firewire. Then to external 500gig drive, firewire 800. Everything worked fine, digitzed 10 tapes. Then someone added another firewire drive and a router, connecting the two drives through the Belkin router. First error symptoms: using digitize now - system freezes on allocating disc space. Makes phantom file size of all usable space. Second error symptom: if you pick a clip and log it and then digitize the clip - initially it all froze up on first frame. After changing some preferences (the abort on dropped frames) I can now get it to digitize 5 minute clips - system takes between 5 and 35 seconds to begin digitizing. Sometimes sound files are way off sync. (I am digitizing to same file, though I normally do not do that). On longer files, system will freeze up on first frame. Have to force quit computer not FCP to get out.
Of course I unplugged all the peripherals. Maybe it was the external drive, so I digitized directly to 160gig system drive - same symptoms, although this is the drive I am using now to get in the 5 minutes clips.
Of course, I need to digitize something from a DVD, and running it through the deck FCP sees the video, but forced to use digitize now it won't work.
I have not trashed the plist file, I just found out about that, but not convinced that is it. No clues, either.

see if this addresses your issue
Shane's Stock Answer #10: ALLOCATING DISKSPACE
1) Set a limit on Capture Now. Never have that box unchecked. Set it to 60 min if you want the whole tape.
2) Do not under any circumstances run any anti-virus/filesaver software. Including Norton and Virex. Sure, Apple doles out Virex for free, but FCP doesn't cooperate with it very well.
If you absolutely feel you must keep Virex installed on your system then use Kevin's script to shut it off before you use FCP:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?[email protected]@.68a85d17
3) Do not capture to your main system drive.
4) Check the format of the drive you are capturing to. It should be Mas OS Extended, jornalling off. If it isn't, copy your files from it and re-initialize it. If it is any other format, you will encounter problems. If not at first, then eventually.
Shane

FCP and Motion formatting issues with DVCPro 50?

The material is DVCPro 50 NTSC 48khtz. (Item properties indicate that I initially digitized it properly.) My sequence settings are DV50 NTSC 48khtz.
I wanted to create a vignette effect so I exported my clips as a Quicktime (current settings) sequence to Motion. When I was done there I exported the sequence from Motion back to FCP as a DV NTSC movie.
Some of the Motion effected clips will play, look great and then all the sudden I see a black band appear on the East side of the frame. I can stretch it in Motion some but it just degrades the image so I'd rather not.
I'm surely grateful if someone can steer me in the right direction here.

Thanks for the workflow tips and suggestions. I backtracked to my original sequence and found the problem originates there. I have narrow black lines on both sides of all these clips. Since I resized a few clips with moves, I didn't recognize the problem. Now that I'm closer the root of it, any suggestions?
By the way, these problematic clips are intercut with no problem library footage that was also shot on DVCPro 50 and I took in on the same deck.
I cruised the forum for any occurence of a similiar issue and most replies seem to suggest a formatting issue. I don't get it since I think I have everything set up correctly. As a precaution, I also tossed out my preferences using FCP Rescue 5.
Welcome to the discussions, splotch.
Not sure what is causing this, but I might propose an
alternate workflow. Have your clips on the timeline
as you wish, ctrl/right click on them and select
Send To Motion.... Click the
embedded and open Motion ticks, give it a name, then
continue. Do your work in Motion, save, quit, and
fall back into FCP. Your clips may lose their
"anamorphicness" on their round trip, but just
ctrl/right click on the clip and select Item Properties/Format..., then
click on the anamorphic button.
Try this and see if you are still getting the same
problem...
Patrick

Export from HD project to DVCPro 50?

I had no trouble exporting from my Final Cut Pro 5 HD (1080i60) project to an HD deck this morning but now that I'm trying to go to DVCPro 50 I'm getting a messages about settings not matching. I've tried redoing seq. settings to DVCPro and then it looks like it's going to export and then it stalls out. Is it even possible to output from an HD project to an NTSC deck? I'm ok with a print to video with no TC info.

Thanks for the input on output! I'll try the QT method first since dropping into a DVCPro sequence didn't seem to work just now. I'm outputting to H.264 QT right now (for DVDs) so it'll be about half an hour before I can test again. I guess I'm wondering if I output to DVCPro QT, do I just crash record to DVDPro deck from Quicktime (which I've never done, but assume is pretty straightforward) or do I import back into FCP and output from there?

Downconverting DVCPRO HD to DVCPRO 50

Hello all,
I searched the forums on this broad issue but no posts seemed to discuss my specific prob.
I shot on the HVX-200 in 24PN and began downconverting my imported footage (DVCPRO HD 720PN 24fps) to DV50 23.98. I noticed that media manager could do the job fine but the one issue was the slight aliasing that would occur in the newly downcoverted DV50 23.98 quicktime. It's not even that bad (i.e. It looks less aliased than when you de-interlace an interlaced clip, but it doesn't look right, none the less). I tried downcoverting it several times, experimented with selecting interlaced and progressive settings, among everything else I could think of but the could not figure out the aliasing issue. Then I tried exporting from the Viewer (with the HD clip open in it), no change. Finally I placed the DVCPRO HD clip in a matching sequence (DVCPRO HD - 720p24) and it FINALLY downconverted to a DV50 23.98 quicktime WITHOUT the subtle aliasing.
I had an online editor check it out to see if I was crazy and the only explanation at the time he could think of is the issue was connected to the simple fact that FCP is best described as "field based" and only when the clip was exported from within its matching sequence would it downconvert without the aliasing issue.
The frustrating thing about this is I'd have to manually downcovert every single clip from the timeline, or dump them ALL into a timeline and downconvert, THEN bring in that newly DV50 23.98 downcoverted clip and start subclipping just to get all my footage seperated into clips again.
And no, laying all that footage to tape isn't an option. Shouldn't have to be since I can successfully downconvert, but just can't do a batch process.
Does this all boil down to Media Manager's "recompress" is not technically the same thing as "downconverting" and doesn't guarantee perfect results?

Hey Jx,
For production purposes, there are features in camera such as the varicam overcrank/undercrank ability and others as well that I wanted to take advantage of (I believe 24pNative is only available in HD mode as well, which mainly I just used for it's smaller file size as I was using P2 cards). And the use of P2 cards, eliminating capturing.
For post production purposes, I wanted to be able to deliver my show (a music video) HD down the road and deliver SD for the time being. Plus, I do all the VFX shots with the HD clips for the reason of just working in higher res (cleaner, easier compositing), plus I then have the ability to reframe (i.e. rescale shots) with the HD clips at their 960x720 frame size down to NTSC's 720x480. E.G. I wanna zoom in 20% to crop out a boom mic, etc. I can do it with (essentially) no quality loss.
That's all I can think of at the moment. Hope you buy some of these reasons cuz they were advantages for me. Also, I can't technically explain it but common belief seems to be the downconverted (from HD) DVCPRO 50 shot will look better than the in-camera DVCPRO 50 shot. That statement might be false "a priori" but it wouldn't be the first time I say something foolish. Thanks for posting.

Mixed Media: 720p 60 + DVCPRO 50

Hi all,
I've searched the forums looking to answer this question, and may have actually found the answer more than once but have now thoroughly confused myself into a corner, so I thought I should just post.
What would be the best method to work with 720p60 HD footage and DVCPRO 50 footage in the same timeline?
All media has already been captured; recapturing with a hardware/deck/camera-based downconvert is no longer an option. Final output is to an SD DVD, in both NTSC and PAL (for which I'll be using Natress' Standards Conversion).
I've been able to work with both formats in a variety of timelines, including Uncompressed 10-bit, DVCPRO 50 and so on, with each yielding slightly different results (letting FCP handle the rendering required). I'll be slowing down and reversing some clips, doing some desaturating, color correction, and adding grain here and there, so different combinations look better and worse depending on the sequence preset and the format of a particular clip, but none is consistently good for both formats.
I'm assuming the correct way to approach this is to standardize the formats between the two sources -- in this case I'm figuring the best option is to downconvert the HD to a friendly SD (like DVCPRO 50, for example).
Based on one of Shane Ross' posts I tried Media Manager, but I was given a warning that the frame rates didn't match and that I could either abort or preserve the framerate of the source (720p). Is the only other option a time- and drive space- costly conversion via Compressor?*
*Um, yeah, important note: I've already done a bunch of editing on this project, naively (perhaps) believing that I could go about downconverting later on, but I did this thinking that Media Manager could easily convert and replace or create a new project with the downconverted media.
Any advice would be extremely appreciated.
Did I mention my deadline is in two days?
2x2 GHz G5, 4GB RAM; 1.67 GHz 15" PB G4, 2GB RAM Mac OS X (10.4.7) SATA RAID; G-RAID (x3)

Hey Pat, thanks -- your post gets to the heart of my troubles. (Shane's does too, in the sense of technical specifics, e.g. please forgive any slightly misstated specs in what follows...)
The 16mm footage, which was originally 24 frames per second, was transferred to DVCPRO 50 (interlaced NTSC, 720x480, 29.97) before being captured (and it looks great). The few bits of DV were actually shot PAL (progressive) before being transfered to DV NTSC (interlaced), prior to capture (I had no say here, this is how I received the material -- which, by the way, looked pretty nasty).
The HD footage was shot 720p 60, which I'm understanding means 960x720, 'p' for 'progressive' and 60 frames per second. That last part has confused the heck out of me -- I know it's possible to shoot faster than NTSC's run of the mill 30fps (okay, 29.97), but for some reason I thought this was an unusual circumstance (as if it needed a special camera or tape stock or whatever). I also understand the potential benefits when it comes to shooting a higher frame rate, like if you're planning on doing speed changes (especially slow-mo), but am I wrong to think that 60fps is unusual?
Let me clarify a little. I know 29.97 is standard NTSC video, but according to the info within FCP (and in my bins), 720p 60 means 60 frames per second, not fields per second (which would indeed be 30 frames per second, or 29.97). If, however, the format was called '60i' this would mean that it was indeed 60 (or 59.98) fields per second, giving us 30 (or 29.97) frames per second. Please let me know if I've got this right.
Assuming that's correct, then the 720p 60 is never going to play nicely with the DVCPRO 50. Even if I take the clips that I want to slow down and change their speed in a native timeline (720p 60), those rendered files still won't look good back in the DVCPRO 50 timeline (progressive vs. interlaced, 59.98 fps vs. 29.97 fps). It would seem to me that the best way to deal with this is to take the 720p 60 footage, make the speed changes in a native timeline (BTW, which way: using the speed controls within FCP, or Twixtor, or some kind of Cinema Tools conversion taking advantage of the 60fps?), and then output or convert this clips somehow before placing them back into the non-native DVCPRO 50 timeline. Make sense?
My original hope was that the frame rate would be a minor concern, rendered nicely in the DVCPRO 50 timeline, and I was optimistic by how easily they seemed to mix together prior to making any speed changes. This hope was further dashed by the different results yielded by some of the film effects, like adding grain (which I now have a solution for: make all of my speed changes, finalize my edit, output a final version, then import that movie for applying additional effects, which will no longer vary according to the source footage specs, such as frame size and frame rate). I know it'll wind up being more complicated than this (for example, if I've got a cross dissolve between a 720p 60 clip and a 16mm clip (transferred to DVCPRO 50), applying a 24p film effect to the HD footage must be done independently (since the 16mm clip already has a 24p look to it), output (or rendered?), a then dropped back into the edit before outputting for final effects, such as adding grain).
Phew. Sorry if I've overstated anything, I just want to be clear. Answering any of my questions above would be a huge help... and yes, my time is running out. No pressure.
Maybe I can help things along by restating my questions (simply):
1. What is the best way to apply speed changes, including reversals, to 720p 60 footage?
2. What is the best way to insert speed-altered 720p 60 clips into a DVCPRO 50 timeline?
3. What is the best way to apply a 24p frame rate effect (courtesy of Nattress' Film Effects) to this mix of 720p 60 and DV? (None of the DVCPRO 50 requires this filter because it was all originally 16mm film, which already appears to be 24p)
Thank you for your help so far, and thanks in advance!
P.S. - Sorry, another thought just occured to me. Say my cut is locked, couldn't I also opt to output the edited 720p 60 clips I'm using from a native 720p 60 timeline, then convert these clips using Compressor and re-import them into my project?
I've read elsewhere that Compressor's format conversions are pretty spiffy, if time-consuming, but I'd only need to do this to a handful of relatively short shots. This way I could import the clips as DVCPRO 50 NTSC (interlaced, 29.97, 720x480), then apply other effects to all of the clips (like 24p, grain, etc.)...

Big Problem when Capturing DVCPro 50 tape with FCP 5.0.4

At the job we work with DVCPro 50 tapes wich I capture using the capture Preset DVCPro 50 NTSC, the images are perfect, but there is a problem with the sound it doesn't capture at the good frequence, exemple, if the capture provide 5 clips, the 3 or 4 first will be fine and the other one qill be at an audio rate of 47.* instead of 48 khz, does anyone had that problem already and if so, what can i do?? Cause now everything is off sync
thanks

sorry to bother you, but you were the only reply. 3 sources were mini dv. 1 was hdv. the mini dv sources were converted using toast (by someone else). when all sources were put on the timeline, i got the redline render. so i rendered them (took many many hrs). then i exported them. this turned them into
fcp movie files. then i re imported them. currently the browser says they are all dv/dvcpro, ntsc ccir601, 720x480. the weird thing is that i can multiclip any of the two sources, but not 3 or more. any help would be appreciated. thx dr

Jagged edges using DVCPRO 50

yeesh.
We are capturing footage that was shot at 24 fps, 16:9 anamorphic standard def on an SDX900 camera using on DVCpro tapes, off of an AJSD93 deck over firewire. We capture with the DVCPRO50-NTSC codec, and have tried both 23.98 and 24.
and we are PLAGUED with these frames with horrible jagged edges. This appears to be an interlace/field dominance problem, but uh it was shot progressive. Any of you masters got any ideas?
below is the example frame
Using a quicksilver g4 finalcut 5.04
Thank you so much!
Dillon
g4 desktop Mac OS X (10.3.9)

Please pardon the intrusion…
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Hope to see you soon!

I wrongly imported DVCPRO 50 files into a 720p HD sequence

Hi,
I wrongly imported clips originally shot in DVCPRO 50 PAL files into my default 720p HD sequence into a 720p HD sequence and when I discovered that I started a DVCPRO 50 sequence and imported the clips from the HD seq but they all look a bit out of focus and they had to be resized, and the text looks a bit out of focus too.
How can I keep my edits but continue to work in the a seq set to the native format of the footage and make the clips look right?

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2682382&tstart=0

Editing issue with DVCpro 50, blak lines right and left

Hello to everyone, I am editing in native DVCpro 50. In the canvas I get a thin black line left and right, so the footgae is not completely covering the canvas view. Should I resize the footgae a little bit to match this?
My problem is that I am bringing pictures to the project so I dont know if I should adjust them to the cambas or to the slightlt smaller fame of the footage, this would be a hard work to make everything equal
Thanks for your help

If this is for TV, the lines will be outside the safe action area anyway, so they will not be seen.
You will see them on a computer though.
If you really need to zoom in slightly, do it when your edit is locked to one clip.
Right click that clip in the timeline and copy it.
Highlight all the other clips, right click and go to Paste Attributes then select Basic Motion.
That will change all the others to match.

DVCPRO HD 29.97 vs 59.94

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