DVD Settings & Black Levels

Hi,
I just switched from using Compressor 2, too Sorenson Squeeze 4.3. I've encoded some shows with it and haven't been that impressed.
First: The Blacks in the video are really dark. Everything I import into Final Cut comes in at 0 ire. When I used Compressor, it added setup to 7.5 ire.
Does Squeeze add setup? I could not find anything in the settings or manual about this.
Second: As I mentioned above, I haven't been impressed with the quality. Here are the settings I use for Squeeze. Any comments?
Format Constraints: DVD (MPEG2)
Stream Type: Program
Codec: MPEG-2 Video
Method: 2-Pass VBR
Data Rate: 5000
Format: NTSC
Frame Size: 720 x 480
Frame Rate: 29.97
Aspect: 4:3
Field Encoding: Bottom First
All projects come from Final Cut Pro 5, I export using Quicktime Movie, than drag the file into Squeeze and encode.
Thanks,
Mike A.

Some encoders (I use bitVice more than Compressor) do have certain "corrector" selections that can be made which would affect how the final m2v looks.
For instance, using bitVice as an example, it has a DV Luma corrector and a DV Chroma Corrector to adjust based on the codecs/gamma (make it light/dark), but as they say let your eyes be the final judge (bitVice is the help section ) and usually I find the best results is to color correct and then encode without any further changes in the encoder.
What may be happening is that Compressor may be doing some changes automatically based on the movie it is encoding (or you may have checked a selection?) Squeeze may in fact in be producing a more accurate encode to the material. (In fact it sounds like it may be closer to what is actually there if it is darker if you had not done any corrections to the footage)
That said the workarounds
1.) The best - monitor the video in FCP on a broadcast calibrated monitor via a card to see what is going on (and use the scopes also to see your black and white levels)
2.) Become accustomed to the shift between a FCP color corrected clip (assuming what it looks like after the encode) and the encoder you are using. BUT be very careful. What looks "good" on the computer screen will look poor in real life (DVD on TV) Use your scopes more than your eyes if you use a computer monitor, and realize the a properly adjusted video for TV will probably look "off" on a computer monitor. Also perhaps download bitVice demo and see if you like the results vis a vis Compressor and Squeeze, it may be worthwhile to look at)

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OpenGL inaccuracies and black levels

Here is an sRGB file consisting of 0,0,0 background, with five overlaid squares at one level increments, from 1 to 5.
On my Eizo CG246, calibrated with Eizo ColorNavigator, all five squares are discernible against the black background, as long as Graphics Processor > Advanced is set to "Basic" mode. This means that the color management logic (the conversion to the display profile) is performed in the CPU.
In "Normal" and "Advanced" modes, color management is shifted to the GPU. With these settings, black levels disappear. It's not dramatic, but it's there. The difference can be illustrated in a screenshot, as long as the display profile is assigned and the screenshot is pasted in the Basic mode. Here's how it looks straight up (should be viewed against a dark background):
Here I put a Curves layer on top to exaggerate:
And here I read out the numbers from this exaggerated version:
So far it seems this can not be reproduced on another monitor I have, an NEC P232W calibrated with Spectraview II. It also seemed a bit more pronounced on a different Eizo I no longer use, an S2243W, calibrated with Eizo EasyPix.
This suggests that the problem is in the interaction between the display profile and the Open GL engine that does the conversion. I think this is related to the ProPhoto cyan banding issue previously reported, because that also seems to behave differently between these two systems (I'll do some more testing on that).
In all cases and all scenarios, all irregularities disappear with Open GL in the "Basic" setting.

You neglected to include your test image with black and levels (1,1,1) through (5,5,5), but no matter, I have the one I made...
http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/DarkGrayColorLevels16Bit.png
I've found that here I'm not seeing a visible difference between GPU and CPU color-management with the image in the sRGB color space. In other words, no crush. With the image in the ProPhoto RGB color space, some slight crush was apparent, along with color shifts almost exclusively toward red.
However, that's not to say there are no differences between the two. They're just more subtle than what you're seeing. What I did to test was this:
Open the image I linked to above using Advanced mode OpenGL.
Float it in a window.
Screen grab it.
Pick it up and start to drag it.
While still dragging, screen grab it again.
Overlay the two images, and pixel align them.
Set the top image to "Difference" blending.
Add a couple of Curves layers over the top to greatly enhance the differences to make them more visible.
Since my test image has a dark grayscale gradient expressed in 16 bits/channel, it's not only testing for accuracy at the visible level, but also for very subtle changes. Lo and behold, changes are revealed. Note:
Enhanced differences between GPU and CPU rendering of the image in the sRGB color space:
Assigning the ProPhoto RGB color space to my test image, then comparing GPU vs. CPU rendering...
-Noel

Black Levels Boosted Upon DVD Burn

I realize this topic has been covered and have read the many threads on this and on other forums. I have used the FCP forum in the past and thank anyone who has ever helped, well, anyone with a question. The link to purchase a Proc Amp is wonderfully informative and does nothing to remedy the problem or answer the question (for under $700).
Is the workaround (yes, yet another workaround to add to the incredible list of hoop jumping - try using Soundtack Pro to alter audio clips not captured in stereo!) really to figure out a final "DVD export" setting that compensates for the black level increase? That's what I've gathered after a couple days of casual research and all today really trying to tackle the problem. Sorry, just a little frustrated.
If anyone was patient enough to read this all the way through and has a better idea than dropping the video level before exporting to Compressor/Quicktime please let me know.
Also, why is the problem not nearly as noticable in my three year old version of iDVD?
G4 Dual 1.25, 2GB RAM Mac OS X (10.3.9) FCP5.03 DVDSP4.03

When you say "black levels boosted," do you mean you have too much black or not enough black? In other words, is your complaint that things are too dark, or that blacks are no longer "true" black?
From your text, it sounds like you're complaining that your footage is too dark.
Most complaints, however, are that compared to DV footage, the MPEG2 results are washed out. This is because they're comparing footage that has no "setup" (i.e. playing video directly out of the DV camera) with footage that has "setup" (i.e. playing video from a DVD player, which defaults to black equalling 7.5 IRE rather than 0 IRE). This is why you've seen the "proc amp" recommendation elsewhere.
Can you describe your workflow in detail? It sounds like you're probably using DV footage--is that true? Are you exporting out of FCP into Compressor directly? Exporting a reference movie first? Exporting a movie and then encoding from QuickTime? Other?

Black levels in Compressor

What settings are best for maintaining 7.5 IRE in a clip when creating MPEG2s in Compressor? If I go above 9, the black areas get blocky on screen. But is that going to be the case on a television screen?

IRE isn't applied in the digital domain, it's only an artifact of analog video. If you're having problems then I suspect it's either a problem in your color workflow or the cllip was captured from an analog source that was configured incorrectly.
If you haven't already done so, you should review the following on-line tutorials:
http://www.signvideo.com/dv-black-levels-dvd-authoring-mpeg-2-part-1.htm
http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/video_levelsnattress.html<small><hr width="75%"><small>If this suggestion helps in any way, a confirmation or acknowledgment would be appreciated, since that would also help others who may be having the same difficulty. Do for others as you would have them help you.<center>Thanks for sharing, Waymen.</center></small>

Black Levels

I am using a Canon XL1 and would like to create a DVD that plays well on an NTSC television in North America. I have color corrected using a television monitor connected to an NTSC TV via the XL1 (and I do not, unfortunately, have a proc amp).
My understanding is that the above setup will produce incorrect black levels, due to an inconsistency in the way black is represented by Japanese cameras vs. North American TVs and DVD players.
What I would like to know is what filter to use, with what settings, to correct black levels for video produced in this configuration.
I understand that this is not the "right" way to approach this problem, but I would like a method that will at least provide me with something that's approximately correct.
Thanks,
Bob

Hi Bob,
You might find this flash video from JVC to be helpful - http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/demo.html I don't think the issue is Japanese cameras in general, rather it's the setup/settings of your camera and other devices. I have a Canon Optura xi and haven't had any problems with black levels, at least in my opinion/experience.
Other than that, I think the Broadcast Safe filter is what you are looking for.

Can I fix the black level with the proc amp filter in FCP?

Again, trying to help my dad convert old vhs tapes to DVD. A proc amp is a bit outside his price range and probably a canopus box that handles setup is as well.
Can this problem be fixed after capture? I noticed that final cut has a proc amp filter built into it but the documentation on it is sparse at best.
If it can be fixed what settings do I need to use with the proc amp filter? Will using this filter be the same thing or will it just be "darn close"?
Is there any way I can verify it is indeed a black level problem by looking at the scopes in final cut?

i don't like the fcp proc amp filter but you could capture a bit and see if it's gonna work. i would capture a bit and apply the black level control on the 3 way color corrector and follow it all the way to dvd.
if these vhs tapes are precious and critical, why not rent a tbc and undergo a marathon capturing session?
OR! rent a dvd recorder and record direct from the vhs player and let the recorder handle everything for you.

Black Level Trouble

I finally found out why my Mini DV footage looks great in Premeire, or when played back through my camera, but lousy when I transcode it to DVD.
The Mini DV standard for video calls for a black level of 0 IRE. The DVD standard in the U.S. calls for a black level of 7.5 IRE. What this means is that the footage shot with your Mini DV camera will be washed out, (overexposed), when you transcode it to the DVD format.
Its not just me; everyone that uses a Mini DV camera that is built to the "Mini DV Standard" in the U.S. is going to have their footage washed out when they convert it to a DVD. (PAL does not have this problem).
How come nobody is complaining about this? How is everybody (besides me) getting around this problem?
I realize that most new DVD players have a set up menu where you can pick "Enhanced Black" so the footage will look correct, but who wants to tell people they have to modify their basic settings just to view your movie. In the future I will shoot my stuff underexposed to correct for the error, but what do I do about it now that I have the project shot and edited?
I am using Encore 1X. Does a later version have the ability to change IRE settings? Is there another program out there that I can use to salvage my project? I have tried darkening the footage in Premeire, but it doesn't look as good as if the black levels were set properly.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Sherman

I finally found out why my Mini DV project looks so lousy when transcoded to DVD. Below is a link to JVC's website explaining that most cameras are not Mini DV compliant. Unfortunately mine is and this caused Encore to display the footage as overexposed when transcoded to DVD. Someone on the Premeire Forum directed me to a "levels" filter which will make my project look too dark in Premeire but should look correct when I transcode it in Encore.
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf
Sherman

Crushed black levels in iMovie HD

I'm having trouble with black levels being crushed (i.e.: darkening, unwanted excessive contrast, loss of detail) when importing video from a newer pro level JVC broadcast 1/2-inch chip camera into iMovie HD. I am importing via firewire into iMovie, making a few edits and sending the video back to the camera via firewire. When I use the pro camera, the black levels are crushed. However, when I use a consumer grade Canon GL-2 camera and do the same, the black levels are perfect and unaffected. Has anyone else had this problem and figured out a solution? Thank you.
Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.7)
Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.7)
Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

I am able to set the black level of what is recorded to tape; however, the camera always outputs at 7.5. iMovie wants to see black setup at 0.0 but my camera outputs at 7.5 NTSC regardless of the black level setting that goes to tape. I'll check the manual again and try some experiments. I'll post the results soon. Thank you.
that is beyond my hands-on experiences, but afaik,
broadcast camcorders allow setting the blacklevel
manually, as a keyword "superblack", which is "under"
0%...-
check camera's settings/manual
iMovie is a consumer product, ... my guess
is, your dv-stream is outside the "normal" standards
of a 200$camcorder..
Powerbook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

Black levels and exporting

Hey there-
When I export anything through render cue using Lossless, Lossless with alpha or Custom Quicktime the black levels of the rendered file are 5-10 units high regardless of the program that I use to open it. I'm exporting to a local hard drive and not a server. I'm using After Effects CS6 and Final Cut Pro 7.0.3 on a Mac. The export settings in After Effects are the same as others in my office and no one else seems to have this problem.
Thanks for your time.

By “units” I mean pedestal units on a wave form monitor. Final Cut has a wave form/vector scope feature. The apps that I use do not have features to adjust gamma, video levels or pedestal. I'm not using color management. I've tried importing raw video (uncompressed Sony XPCAM) and Quicktime files from different sources, adding them to the timeline and exporting them without applying anything at all. The codecs that the files are being exported to are animation and timecode. As far as monitor calibration, everything with the exception of exported After Effects files looks normal in Final Cut Pro. (blacks have definition but are not washed out, whites and colors look normal). Could it possibly have something to do with how the files are being imported?

Black levels different on import

Hi all. I'm digitizing a DVCam Master tape of a show that I'm putting on DVD. In the studio where the show was edited, the blacks look perfect. But when I digitize on my system, the blacks look a lot lighter. I've compared the QTs I'm making with QTs my client made, and my client's are much darker. The weird thing is we both digitized using Firewire. Could my deck be causing a problem? (It's an older Sony WV-DR7, a grey-market Japanese player that takes full size DV tapes, and also plays DVCam). Could it be the way I'm digitizing? (I'm going in firewire, which I always assumed was identical to the tape). Any one else ever had these issues? Any solutions in FCP itself?
Any ideas?
G5 Dual 2.5 Ghz Mac OS X (10.4.9)
FCP 5.0.4

It's most likely your IRE setup with the deck. Here's where it gets tricky because I don't know how your older deck handles DV. But to sum up, digital media needs to be captured to your NLE at 0 IRE and analoge video will need 7 IRE in order to mainatain proper black levels. So check your deck and make sure it's set right for your particular capture.
With more modern decks the default setup is usually for DV and 0 IRE but your deck may be different. It's worth it to do a test using the 2 different black setup levels on your deck. Obviously you'll choose the setup that gives you proper black levels in FCP, whatever that setup turns out to be.
- Don

Black Levels in MPEG-2 files

This is a problem I've been trying to solve for months. Whenever I encode an MPEG-2 file, regardless of what program I'm using (After Effects CS3, Sorensen Squeeze, among others), the black levels are milky grey, not black. This is a short film originally shot on 35mm; it is now a 10-bit DPX log sequence. The footage looks great in After Effects - black levels are all correct. When I export a QuickTime file from it, it looks good. But if I encode an MPEG-2 file, either directly from After Effects or using a different encoder, the blacks turn milky grey and the contrast/gamma in general just look a little off.
Any insight anyone has into this problem would be greatly appreciated.
Win XP/Intel Quad Core/4GB Ram

It's a combination of the two, most likely. In general you will want to work in vanilla sRGB or 601/ Rec 709 when preparing content for DVD to be able to predict the colors as they will go on DVD. Other color profiles will use a different Gamma, which ultimately will result in a completely different effective output upon render than the one you may be seeing in your composition based on the workspace profile and log/lin conversion. This is especially critical with outputs via Adobe Media Encoder, image sequences or certain Quicktme flavors, all of which are aware of color profiles and in part allow embedding that info. A short way to bypass some of your issues may be the "preserve RGB" option on the output module color management tab, though it may cause your video to look over-saturated. Ultimately you will probably have to derive a dedicated DVD version of your project or base the actual MPEG-II transcode on a pre-rendered, color managed file. As an last item, make sure to check your monitor's Gamma and review the final output on a real TV and DVD player.
Mylenium

How to adjust black levels

I have a XBR65X930C Sony and am struggling with the black parts of the picture. The entire picture is pretty dark since I put it in cinema mode and the black portion of the screen is just that, black. No detail. Can youi tell me which attibutes to change?

I guess it depends on what element of the picture you want to control. I have a XBR-55X850C. I believe that the UI and settings are similar, but there may be some differences.
Personally, I use a preset as a starting point, and then I'll go from there, either changing settings, or going to the 'Custom' setting, and start filling out the settings similar to another preset, making adjustments to taste along the way.
These are found under Picture Adjustments > Advanced Settings. In here, the category you should focus on is Brightness.
Your concern is that areas that are black are too deep of a black to your liking, and showing no detail correct?
You may want to tinker with some of the following
Contrast - Maybe mess around with this, sometimes a higher/lower contrast can help differentiate smaller differences in lighting.
Black Level - I believe this simply adjusts how deep the blacks are on the picture.
Under that there are some setting specific to the higher end models like yours. The X-tended Dynamic Range setting is closely tied to how blacks look. Maybe you want to lower that to make the blacks less deep.
I wouldnt worry too much about the 'Brightness' setting as I believe thats how bright the LED lights are (similar to brightness on a smartphone), and don't actually change the picture at all.
This may be a good resource for you too: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/sony/x930c/settings

Encoding to Blu-ray is destroying my black levels - what am I doing wrong?

I need to burn a short to Blu-ray for a screening coming up, but every time Premiere/Encoder/Encore finishes the disc, the black levels look nothing like what I saw in my project timeline OR in Encore's preview window. The blacks are soft, grey, with way too much detail in them. Research has led me to believe that my issue has something to do with the color values of my project going from 0-255, but that Adobe Media Encoder will automatically shift that to 16-235. Or something. I don't know, all of this is new to me in the last 12 hours.
I did miss around with the Levels effect in Premiere just to test this hypothesis, and when I bumped the black output levels from 0 to 16 in the timeline, it did replicate the difference that I was seeing in finished blu's.
I've scoured all the settings in Premiere and Encore for a way to control the black levels going into/coming out of Encoder, but cannot find anything. Someone please tell me what stupid thing I overlooked so I can make this movie look right.
For reference, my source video is:
DSLR .mov footage, 1920x1080, 23.976
And I'm exporting to Blu-ray using the following settings:
MPEG 2 (also tried H.264, same result)
NTSC
CBR (movie's only 22 minutes), but I've also tried VBR 2pass at 40mbps max, 35mbs target, and 25mbps minimum.
Profile: 5.0
Max render quality, maximum bit depth, max everything.
Running Premiere Pro Cs5.5

S.A. Hudson wrote:
...Research has led me to believe that my issue has something to do with the color values of my project going from 0-255, but that Adobe Media Encoder will automatically shift that to 16-235. Or something. I don't know, all of this is new to me in the last 12 hours.
I did miss around with the Levels effect in Premiere just to test this hypothesis, and when I bumped the black output levels from 0 to 16 in the timeline, it did replicate the difference that I was seeing in finished blu's.
I've scoured all the settings in Premiere and Encore for a way to control the black levels going into/coming out of Encoder, but cannot find anything. Someone please tell me what stupid thing I overlooked so I can make this movie look right.
For reference, my source video is:
DSLR .mov footage, 1920x1080, 23.976
And I'm exporting to Blu-ray using the following settings:
MPEG 2 (also tried H.264, same result)
NTSC
CBR (movie's only 22 minutes), but I've also tried VBR 2pass at 40mbps max, 35mbs target, and 25mbps minimum.
Profile: 5.0
Max render quality, maximum bit depth, max everything.
Running Premiere Pro Cs5.5
You are correct. Depending on a host of technical factors (none of which are visible or controllable in the GUI) the raw footage that is sent from Premiere to AME for encode can be in the range 0-255 (PC) or 16-235 (TV). Rendering at Max Render Quality should have it come in as 16-235 always.
If you encode for TV the encoder will scale the range down - making it less contrasty - ie what you're seeing) or simply clamp the values so that anything below 16 is clamped to 16 and above 235 is clamped to 235.
You said that you have your TV connected to the PC via HDMI. Can you put the reference monitor on that display and confirm that the blacks are the same as the video seen inside PPro? If so your TV is configured correctly.
Next use the 3 way color corrector (NOT "Levels" or "Brightness and Contrast" - they are clamped to the 16-235 range!!!!) to blow the image out from 16-235 to full range (check in the vectorscope or YCrCb waveform to confirm it's full range - ie WAY past the 100% squares in the vectorscope).
Check on the TV and it should not show the greater gammut. If it does it means that your TV is doing full-range.
this is all a bit late for your showing but I hope it can help.
Anyhow off that tangent...
I would recommend you export a h.264 clip to a usb stick if your standard home-use blu-ray player has usb stick playback.
Put that stick in your blu-ray player or Samsung TV if it can do it too, and see if it'll play back with the right blacks.

Advice needed on white imac 24" screen - black levels

Hi, I'm new to these forums as I'm a new mac user. So far the experience has been pretty good!
I have a white 24" imac, and the colours and black levels look pretty ok in a normally lit room.
However when I turn the lights off (room is in the dark) and view say a black screensaver, the whole screen appears greyish rather than a pure black. The greys appear quite even though, no splotches or anything.
Is this something I should expect, especially for the iMac screen which is known to be an IPS lcd panel? Or should I give apply a call about it?
Any advice and help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

More than likely that is caused by the backlight and is normal.

Data below black level 0 in h264 mp4 files.

I'm a little confused about black and white levels in video.
I have two questions. If you bare with me for a second I can demonstrate what I mean.
I created gradient with values from 0,0,0 to 255,255,255 in Photoshop and saved it as sRGB jpg file.
I imported the file to Premiere and added Fast Color Corrector to the file and changed black input level from 0,0 to 16,0
So now everything below value 16 is cutted to black.
I exported the edited gradient as h264 mp4 videofile.
Now things got interesting.
I imported the edited videofile back to Premiere, added Fast Color Corrector to videofile and changed black output level from 0,0 to 16,0
The information that I thought was lost is there!
I tried to to the same thing for the same video file with Photoshop and I'm not able to get the lost information back.
Why is there information below 0? And how am I able to rescue it with Premiere, but not with Photoshop?
Does this have something to do with YCbCr black and white levels that are 16-235?
This whole question came up when I calibrated my Samsung lcd-tv. I used AVS HD 709 mp4-calibration videos.
There are black level calibration videofile. Which is exactly like my gradient video file where there are black values below 0.
If you lift your tv's brightness below certain levels you are able to see the black values that are below 0.
I'm able to see these "blacker than black" values with tv's own videoplayer and with xbox videoplayer.
However, if I try to see these values with my macbook pro which is connected to tv I can't get them visible.
It doesn't matter if I play the video with quicktime, vlc or premiere.
So the second question is why the macbook pro does not send any "below black" information to tv?
PS. I'm using latest premiere CC.
Thank you in advance!
In this image you can see from Premiere Scopes what is happening.

Does this have something to do with YCbCr black and white levels that are 16-235?
No and yes.
When you manipulate levels values within 0-255 (0.0-1.0) range, you don't clip existing data, you simply compress/decompress contrast, while information is still there (to some extent). By the way, data outside 16-235 range, but inside 0-255 are not super-blacks or super-whites (underdarks or ovebrights), they are just broadcast safe values. Super-blacks or underdarks are values below 0.0, while super-whites or overbrights are values above 1.0. The nature of YCbCr does allow to store some real super-blacks and super-whites even while encoding to 8-bit codec.
Why only some codecs are able to preserve this "illegal" values?
MOV container is... um-m-m... quirky. For example, exactly the same data encoded to e.g. mp4 and MOV with exactly the same codec (e.g. H.264), may be decoded/interpretted differently. So as to have some fun, create a copy of an mp4 clip, which contains some super-whites, rename file extension of one copy to MOV, import both mp4 and fake MOV footages into After Effects, set your project to 32-bit, sRGB or Rec.709 and linearise working space in order to get precise result while blending layers. Then drop both clips into the same composition and set blending mode to Difference. Enjoy!
Why I'm only able to access these values inside Premiere and not with Photoshop. Is Photoshop unable to access these illegal below 0 values?
Try setting Photoshop to 32-bit first. If that doesn't help, then yes, Photoshop clips values outside 0-255 (0.0-1.0) range on importing. Similarly you won't be able to get super-whites or super-blacks back in PrPro with 8-bit effects.
When i export with codecs that can preserve superblacks should I still get rid of them with videolimiter. Do they cause any problems in youtube or broadcast environments?
No. Moreover, you should take care of broadcast legal range in case of delivering to a broadcaster only, YouTube 'broadcasts' on the web and targets regular computer monitors, which operate on sRGB 0-255 range.
why the macbook pro does not send any "below black" information to tv?
That has probably something to do with Apple colour management workflow. Since I'm not on a Mac, I can't comment this on

DVD Settings & Black Levels

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