Exporting Tifs:Default Color Space is sRGB
I'm flabbergasted.
Again, without warning, Aperture is altering my files. This seems to be part of the design philosophy.
Go to Output>Export Version.
From the drop down you can choose a variety of formats. Go to the bottom to Edit...
And you will see that the default color space for all formats except PSD is sRGB.
As if that weren't bad enough, there is an option for Black Point Compensation (off by default) and a Gamma slider......with no preview.
Even with Source Profile selected (shouldn't THAT be the default for heaven's sake?) the black point compensation button and the gamma slider are available to be invoked.
fp
It's even WORSE than that:
I exported a tif from Apeture:
8bit
Source profile
I sent the same master to Photoshop, converted it to 8bit and saved as a Tif with LZW compression.
First off, since you cannot specify compression when exporting from Aperture the Aperture file was twice as large, 35.1mb vs. 17.3mb for Photoshop.
But that's not the bad part.
The Bad part is that the Aperture file had suffered visible damage in the conversion with a visible loss of shadow detail. The Photoshop version had not.
I tried this a number of times. Interestingly each time I specified Source Profile the dialog box had returned to sRGB when I checked it again. But that wasn't the problem.
When I changed the export to 16bit tif instead of 8 bit two things happend:
First, Aperture created not one, but two exports of the same file on my hard drive. I trashed them and tried it again with the same results.
Second, the 16bit Aperture tif looked very much like the 8bit Photoshop tif. UNTIL I converted the 16bit Aperture tif to 8bit at which point the shadows fell apart just like they had in the 8bit Aperture conversions.
Very, very bad.
fp
Similar Messages
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I've asked this in a couple other places online as I try to wrap my head around color management, but the answer continues to elude me. That, or I've had it explained and I just didn't comprehend. So I continue. My confusion is this: everywhere it seems, experts and gurus and teachers and generally good, kind people of knowledge claim the benefits (in most instances, though not all) of working in AdobeRGB and ProPhoto RGB. And yet nobody seems to mention that the majority of people - including presumably many of those championing the wider gamut color spaces - are working on standard gamut displays. And to my mind, this is a huge oversight. What it means is, at best, those working this way are seeing nothing different than photos edited/output in sRGB, because [fortunately] the photos they took didn't include colors that exceeded sRGB's real estate. But at worst, they're editing blind, and probably messing up their work. That landscape they shot with all those lush greens that sRGB can't handle? Well, if they're working in AdobeRGB on a standard gamut display, they can't see those greens either. So, as I understand it, the color managed software is going to algorithmically reign in that wild green and bring it down to sRGB's turf (and this I believe is where relative and perceptual rendering intents come into play), and give them the best approximation, within the display's gamut capabilities. But now this person is editing thinking they're in AdobeRGB, thinking that green is AdobeRGB's green, but it's not. So any changes they make to this image, they're making to an image that's displaying to their eyes as sRGB, even if the color space is, technically, AdobeRGB. So they save, output this image as an AdobeRGB file, unaware that [they] altered it seeing inaccurate color. The person who opens this file on a wide gamut monitor, in the appropriate (wide gamut) color space, is now going to see this image "accurately" for the first time. Only it was edited by someone who hadn't seen it accurately. So who know what it looks like. And if the person who edited it is there, they'd be like, "wait, that's not what I sent you!"
Am I wrong? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. I shoot everything RAW, and I someday would love to see these photos opened up in a nice, big color space. And since they're RAW, I will, and probably not too far in the future. But right now I export everything to sRGB, because - internet standards aside - I don't know anybody who I'd share my photos with, who has a wide gamut monitor. I mean, as far as I know, most standard gamut monitors can't even display 100% sRGB! I just bought a really nice QHD display marketed toward design and photography professionals, and I don't think it's 100. I thought of getting the wide gamut version, but was advised to stay away because so much of my day-to-day usage would be with things that didn't utilize those gamuts, and generally speaking, my colors would be off. So I went with the standard gamut, like 99% of everybody else.
So what should I do? As it is, I have my Photoshop color space set to sRGB. I just read that Lightroom as its default uses ProPhoto in the Develop module, and AdobeRGB in the Library (for previews and such).
Thanks for any help!
MichaelOkay. Going bigger is better, do so when you can (in 16-bit). Darn, those TIFs are big though. So, ideally, one really doesn't want to take the picture to Photoshop until one has to, right? Because as long as it's in LR, it's going to be a comparatively small file (a dozen or two MBs vs say 150 as a TIF). And doesn't LR's develop module use the same 'engine' or something, as ACR plug-in? So if your adjustments are basic, able to be done in either LR Develop, or PS ACR, all things being equal, choose to stay in LR?
ssprengel Apr 28, 2015 9:40 PM
PS RGB Workspace: ProPhotoRGB and I convert any 8-bit documents to 16-bit before doing any adjustments.
Why does one convert 8-bit pics to 16-bit? Not sure if this is an apt comparison, but it seems to me that that's kind of like upscaling, in video. Which I've always taken to mean adding redundant information to a file so that it 'fits' the larger canvas, but to no material improvement. In the case of video, I think I'd rather watch a 1080p movie on an HD (1080) screen (here I go again with my pixel-to-pixel prejudice), than watch a 1080p movie on a 4K TV, upscaled. But I'm ready to be wrong here, too. Maybe there would be no discernible difference? Maybe even though the source material were 1080p, I could still sit closer to the 4K TV, because of the smaller and more densely packed array of pixels. Or maybe I only get that benefit when it's a 4K picture on a 4K screen? Anyway, this is probably a different can of worms. I'm assuming that in the case of photo editing, converting from 8 to 16-bit allows one more room to work before bad things start to happen?
I'm recent to Lightroom and still in the process of organizing from Aperture. Being forced to "this is your life" through all the years (I don't recommend!), I realize probably all of my pictures older than 7 years ago are jpeg, and probably low-fi at that. I'm wondering how I should handle them, if and when I do. I'm noting your settings, ssprengel.
ssprengel Apr 28, 2015 9:40 PM
I save my PS intermediate or final master copy of my work as a 16-bit TIF still in the ProPhotoRGB, and only when I'm ready to share the image do I convert to sRGB then 8-bits, in that order, then do File / Save As: Format=JPG.
Part of the same question, I guess - why convert back to 8-bits? Is it for the recipient? Do some machines not read 16-bit? Something else?
For those of you working in these larger color spaces and not working with a wide gamut display, I'd love to know if there are any reasons you choose not to. Because I guess my biggest concern in all of this has been tied to what we're potentially losing by not seeing the breadth of the color space we work in represented while making value adjustments to our images. Based on what several have said here, it seems that the instances when our displays are unable to represent something as intended are infrequent, and when they do arise, they're usually not extreme.
Simon G E Garrett Apr 29, 2015 4:57 AM
With 8 bits, there are 256 possible values. If you use those 8 bits to cover a wider range of colours, then the difference between two adjacent values - between 100 and 101, say - is a larger difference in colour. With ProPhoto RGB in 8-bits there is a chance that this is visible, so a smooth colour wedge might look like a staircase. Hence ProPhoto RGB files might need to be kept as 16-bit TIFs, which of course are much, much bigger than 8-bit jpegs.
Over the course of my 'studies' I came across a side-by-side comparison of either two color spaces and how they handled value gradations, or 8-bit vs 16-bit in the same color space. One was a very smooth gradient, and the other was more like a series of columns, or as you say, a staircase. Maybe it was comparing sRGB with AdobeRGB, both as 8-bit. And how they handled the same "section" of value change. They're both working with 256 choices, right? So there might be some instances where, in 8-bit, the (numerically) same segment of values is smoother in sRGB than in AdobeRGB, no? Because of the example Simon illustrated above?
Oh, also -- in my Lumix LX100 the options for color space are sRGB or AdobeRGB. Am I correct to say that when I'm shooting RAW, these are irrelevant or ignored? I know there are instances (certain camera effects) where the camera forces the shot as a jpeg, and usually in that instance I believe it will be forced sRGB.
Thanks again. I think it's time to change some settings.. -
I am using PS cs6 and lightroom and I am having a hard time know what color space to choose. The lab that I am using told me that their color space is sRGB. Do I need to have both PS and Lightroom set at sRGB or should I have PS set at adobe RGB and just set my export from lightroom as sRGB?
Please post in the Photoshop forum.
http://forums.adobe.com/community/photoshop
Bob -
How do I set sRGB as my default color space?
Im honestly tired of having to convert the files with the "edit > convert to profile" menu option. I export from LR straight to PS. I dont know if that has anything to do with it. I doubt it. I just want to be able to open all my pictures in sRGB without having to do the converting. I do save for web but if the profile is converted before hand, the colors will change.
Raw
Double click here:
and change this -
Safari is color managed and that is great, but I understand if it encounters an un-tagged file it assumes monitor space, I'd like to know if it can be changed to assume sRGB for un-tagged files?
Thanks.
PatrickThe reason I ask is that (in another forum) I recall asking Andrew Rodney (Digitaldog) and he mentioned that it used monitor space. If it does, it definitely doesn't sound like a very good idea.
I hope you're right. I'll have to play around with Safari, Photoshop, and my monitor profile to see if I can prove it for myself.
Thanks for the reply.
Patrick -
Photoshop not seeing export color space setting in Lightroom 4
MY LR or PS programs are not acting as expected.
When my Lightroom 4 is set to export to Photoshop in either the sRGB color space or the AdobeRGB color space, and Photoshop is set for the sRGB space, Photoshop gives a color mismatch error in both cases, saying the image is an AdobeRGB embedded image. However, if the color space in PS is set for AdobeRGB, even if the export setting in Lightroom is sRGB, there is no mismatch error.
Apparently, PS sees every image as embedded with AdobeRGB.
I have a Sony NEX6 camera. I have taken pictures in the camera sRGB color space and the AdobeRGB space, which I used for this test. Since I shoot in RAW, this should not matter, so I don’t think it is the issue, and, in fact, I get the same result no matter which color space the camera is in.
If LR export and PS color space are the same, why should there be a mismatch, and why is PS not seeing the sRGB space? Might there be a setting in Lightroom or Photoshop that I am missing?howdego wrote:
I am, however, trying to decide on the right color space to use, which is how I noticed this problem. I rarely make prints of my photos. I make bluray movies using Proshow Producer. I recently got a new monitor and Samsung LED HDTV, and found that my photo videos did not display right and I am trying to find out why. I found the normal viewing settings of the TV have too much color and sharpness, so I established another group of settings for photos, which helped. However, I am still not satisfied.
These are two separate but related issues.
1) It's almost impossible to get accurate Color and Luminance level rendering inside LR if you don't use a hardware monitor calibrator to adjust your computer monitor.
2) LCD TV's use settings to "enhance" color, brightness, and contrast that is usually very, very inacuuarte. But this is what most non-photography people seem to like so TV manufacturers crank up the "default settings." I also have an older 52" Samsung TV (LN-T5265F) that I've manually adjusted for more accurate color. Try using the 'Movie' mode, which is the most accurate mode and turn the Backlight setting down. Here are the settings I use with my Samsung TV. I assume your Samsung TV's controls are similar:
Setup Screens
HDMI 1 (Cable Box) & Coax (Cable)
HDMI 2 (Panasonic Blu-Ray Player)
PICTURE - 1
Movie
Standard
Dynamic
Movie
Standard
Dynamic
Contrast
82
82
82
82
82
82
Brightness
43
45
45
43
45
45
Sharpness
25
25
35
15
15
25
Color
42
45
45
44
45
45
Tint
77 R
77 R
84 R
77 R
77 R
84 R
Backlight
5
6
7
5
5
6
PICTURE - 2
Color Tone
Normal
Normal
Normal
Normal
Normal
Normal
Detailed Settings
Black Adjust
Off
NA
NA
Off
NA
NA
Dynamic Contrast
Low
NA
NA
Low
NA
NA
Gamma
-1
NA
NA
-1
NA
NA
Color Space
Auto
NA
NA
Auto
NA
NA
White Balance
R-Offset
13
NA
NA
13
NA
NA
G-Offset
15
NA
NA
15
NA
NA
B-Offset
17
NA
NA
17
NA
NA
R-Gain
15
NA
NA
15
NA
NA
G-Gain
12
NA
NA
12
NA
NA
B-Gain
17
NA
NA
17
NA
NA
My Color Control
Pink
15
NA
NA
15
NA
NA
Green
15
NA
NA
15
NA
NA
Blue
15
NA
NA
15
NA
NA
White
15
NA
NA
15
NA
NA
Edge Ehnacement
On
NA
NA
On
NA
NA
xvYCC
Off
NA
NA
Off
NA
NA
Digital NR
Low
Low
Low
Low
Low
Low
Active Color
Off(NA)
Off(NA)
Off
Off(NA)
Off(NA)
Off
Dnie
Off(NA)
Off
Off
Off(NA)
Off
Off
SETUP - Screen 2
Energy Saving
Off
Off
Off
Off
Off
Off
SETUP - Screen 3
HDMI Black Level
Low
Low
Low
Low
Low
Low
Film Mode
Off(NA)
Off(NA)
Off(NA)
Off(NA)
Off(NA)
Off(NA)
howdego wrote:
So it occurred to me that some colors might be wrong, or too saturated, because I am not seeing them on my monitor as they will appear on the HDTV. I am thinking that since sRGB is my final color space, I would try to do everything in the sRGB space, including setting my monitor to sRGB (I have a Dell 2413 which supports adobeRGB too). I was inn the process of trying this when I found the issue at hand. Might you have any thoughts about this color space choice
If you have a wide-gamut monitor you are better off using it in Adobe RGB mode with a monitor calibrator. But then the monitor will not look correct in non-color managed applications:
http://www.gballard.net/photoshop/srgb_wide_gamut.html
You can circumvent this issue by using your monitor in sRGB mode, but I'd still suggest you use a hardware monitor calibrator. Either way it is imortatnt that you have a proper monitor profile assigned in Windows or OS X Color Management. The monitor manufacturer provides these, but they don't always work well with LR for numerous reasons.
To insure the best image quality you should do all of your editing in PS using 16 bit TIFF with ProPhoto RGB profile format until you are ready to Export. For use with ProShow you can use TIFFs or JPEGs, but use sRGB color profile to avoid any color management issue. JPEGs are fine and a LR Quality higher than 80 (10 in PS) is a waste of disk space for slideshow images.
In short you've got a lot of "variables" between the uncalibrated monitor and out-of-the-box non-adjusted TV. The former requires a good hardware calibrator aad the latter a good "eye" to adjust it. -
Change Aperture previews color space from Adobe98 to sRgb
Hi,
I'd like to change the default color space for the jpg previews that Aperture generates from the masters of my library.
I now have all my jpegs saved as Adobe98 but it's important for me to have them saved as sRGB because when third party apps and devices go to read them, they can't reproduce the right colors if they find the wrong color profile.
Thanks in advance for your help!I don't know how many different ways to say that you cannot change the color space for previews. The files themselves have specific image data that corresponds to a specific color profile that is Adobe 1998 you cannot change the way Aperture generates these. Changing your system has nothing to do with it.
As for work-flow - If you need this to work and it doesn't then it never has so I really don't see how it is changing your work-flow that never existed?
RB
Ps. External devices like projectors work fine as long as your presentation software respects the source profile and has an output device profile - what kind of "device" are you using?
Message was edited by: rwboyer -
What Rendering intent is used when exporting with a different color space?
Hi,
I would be ever so grateful if any one can tell me what rendering intent is used by LR4 when exporting using a custom colour space as there is not an option as there is with the print module.
Thanks.
Message title was edited by: Brett NJeff Schewe wrote:
Bob_Peters wrote:
The rendering intent in the Export dialog is Perceptual.
Actually, an RGB color space to RGB colorspace is always only Relative Colorimetric...and adding Perceptual would only work with certain V4 ICC color spaces (you can find perceptual V4 color spaces for sRGB and ProPhoto I think but I'm not sure they would work in Lightroom anyway).
When using an RGB print output profile you can select either Perceptual or Relative and have the intents actually applied.
True.
The case of interest to me is when I have to print a lot of files using a third-party profile and maintain the original filename so it appears on the back. That is why I made the request more than a year ago.
The problem with the Print module is that it clobbers the filename but does allow 2 choices for the rendering intent. Having to deal with weird filenames creates a mess when matching, say, 50 prints with custom notecards. -
Do I need to harmonize color space between LR and other photo editing programs.
I perform the majority of my editing work in Lightroom. However, I also use some 3rd party applications (e.g. Nik, OnOne, etc.) in addition to Photoshop for special editing, etc. I've noticed that the default color space for each of these applications is different. Some default to Adobe RGBb, other sRGB and still others Pro Photo RGB. Should I be using the same color space and bit depth across all of these programs? When I export from LR, should that color space be the same as everything else? I have noticed that when I export some images and take them to a retail store based print service that the colors appear dull and drab. I believe that is because those mass producing print services don't read the color space in the JPEG correctly. Does any of this make sense, or am I way off? Thanks for everyone's input and time.
For your editing workflow, best is to keep the image in the same color space at all time. For final export you should convert to desiered space... for example sRGB for web, adobeRGB for print etc.
-
What's Confusing: I have a layered file, the color space assigned to it is sRGB. I save a png file via Save For Web, tick the option to convert export to sRGB. All looks good in the save for web 2-up preview. But when I open the new png file, it's color profile is set to Adobe RGB, and the color space looks off—not like it did in the SFW preview.
Details: My default color space is Adobe RGB. Sync'd across all CS5 apps. I have the option ticked to warn me on profile mismatches when opening a file. So far so good.
So it seems like my Working Space color (Adobe RGB) is overriding SFW settings as well as my document color space settings
Same thing happens when saving as a jpg.
Any thoughts?To erase, delete or reset Save For Web & Devices SFW preferences:
Open a small .jpg in Photoshop (to ungray the File menu).
Mac: Press and hold Option+Command keys, while File> Save For Web Devices (you will get a prompt confirming you want to erase all Save for Web preferences).
Windows PC: Press and hold Control+Alt keys, while File> Save For Web Devices (you will get a prompt confirming you want to erase all Save for Web preferences).
that should configure SFW default settings to CONVERT your Photoshop Source Space to sRGB and strip the ICC profile by default
How to reset Photoshop's preferences using special key combinations (most Adobe apps use this method of keystrokes):
First Quit Photoshop.
Mac: Press and hold Command+Option+Shift keys, while opening Photoshop (you will get a prompt confirming you want to delete the Adobe Photoshop settings folder).
Windows PC: Press and hold Alt+Control+Shift keys, while opening Photoshop (you will get a prompt confirming you want to delete the Adobe Photoshop settings folder). -
The availability of color space in RAW, TIFF and JPEG files
This is useful if your new to DSLR photography.
This is Nikon response on my question in the discussion: View photo metadata
I'm assuming that you know that Adobe RGB shows about 50% and sRGB 35% of CIELAB color space.
In a DSLR camera like the Nikon D800 you can select a color space (Adobe RGB or sRGB) in the shooting menu.
In Adobe Lightroom 4.3 the RAW metadata shows no color space info. Therefore I asked why not?
In the (Dutch) Nikon D800 manual on page 84 (about RAW) and 274 (about color space) and Nikon FAQ website there is no descripton about the color space availability/behavior in RAW, JPEG and TIFF files.
In the book "Mastering the Nikon D800 by Darrel Young" on page 125 - 126 is written: "If you shoot in RAW format a lot, you may want to consider using Adobe RGB....."
All experts on this forum answered: color space does not apply/affect the RAW data file or RAW files have no color space.
The respone of Nikon Europe Support (Robert Vermeulen) was: In Nikon D800 NEF RAW files both color spaces (Adobe RGB and sRGB) are always physically available. In JPEG and TIFF files only the in the shooting menu selected color space is physically available. So the forum experts gave the correct answer!
Of course you can convert afterwards a JPEG or TIFF file with sRGB color space to Adobe RGB but you don't get more colors.
When you install the Microsoft Camera Codec Pack or FastPictureViewer Codec Pack they only show color space metadata for JPEG and TIFF files and nothing for RAW because color space "doesn't exist". I thought the codec packs removed the color space metadata for my RAW files.
Adobe Lightroom also can not show color space for RAW files because that "doesn't exist".Van-Paul wrote:
The respone of Nikon Europe Support (Robert Vermeulen) was: In Nikon D800 NEF RAW files both color spaces (Adobe RGB and sRGB) are physically available. In JPEG and TIFF files only the in the shooting menu selected color space is physically available.
I still think this is an evasive answer that doesn't really pinpoint the exact chain of events that take place. They are:
1. The raw file contains the naked data captured by the sensor. This is just a very dark grayscale image.
2. In the raw converter it is encoded into a working color space to process the information. In Lightroom this is known as "Melissa RGB", or linear gamma Prophoto. It is also demosaiced to bring back the color information.
3. From Lightroom it can be exported to one of the familiar color spaces like sRGB or Adobe RGB. This is, in principle at least, a normal profile conversion.
These three steps are what the camera does to produce a jpeg. So the basic steps are the same, the camera is just doing it automatically (and usually butchering the image in the process...).
This Darrell Young is, I'm sure, an excellent photographer, but in this he is seriously confused and just propagating a common myth. Anyway, thanks for bringing up this discussion, hope you didn't object too much to the tone of the answers... Our only concern here was to get this right and with no room for misunderstanding. -
Change Default Color Profile in New Image Document ?
I've looked and looked, and even Googled. Anyone know how to change the default color profile when you start a New image file? In CS5 mine defaults to sRGB (Under the Advanced drop down) but my CS6 is ProPhoto RGB which means I have to change it manually nearly every time I paste an image copied via right click in a web browser.
I think it the same on windows. If I copy things to the clipboard with Photoshop that the document profile seem to be used there when I do a paste there are no color issues. However if I use Prtscn or Alt+PrtScn to capture screen content. I'll see that the colors are wrong when I paste the clipboard into a new document if my default color space is not sRGB. Then I need to assign sRGB to the document to correct the colors.
If I paste a screen capture into the current document the color can be very off and I will not get a prompt on the color mismatch. Therefore I don't think a screen capture has any profile associated with it. And of course the screen has a much lower resolution then the images I edit. So there is also a big size difference. Here is one scaled to 100% zoom after the paste. You can see both the color and resolution difference. This capture was assigned to sRGB so you will see what the screen looks like after the paste and zoom to 100%.
Message was edited by: JJMack -
Color space and profiles clarifications
Does FCPX consider the embedded color profile of my clips ?
What is the default color space of FCPX projects ? (if any)
Can I select a specific color profile for my projects ?
My clips (according to after effect_cs6>interpret footage>color management) have this color profile embedded: HDTV (Rec. 709) Y'CbCr, but if I check out the same clip once transcoded to prores422 by FCPX there is no color profile anymore. What's goin on ?
I come from the photography world and we consider color profiles very important, what should I know about them when working with video ?
Thanks a lotThanks TOm, what do you mean internally ? In AE I can select a color space from a long list for my projects while FCPX discard the color profiles from the imported clips... how can it even manage them ?
Thanks -
I have a photo that was taken as RAW with a color space of Adobe RGB.
I would like to submit this photo to a competition. The competition prefers the photo be a JPEG in sRGB.
I have edited the photo, so I don't want to start over. I believe I could change the color space when I brought the photo into PS.
Is there a way I can change the color space to sRGB and still use the editing I have aleady done?You can change the profile anytime you want. You'll be looking to "convert" the file to the sRGB profile.
I would use the save for web feature to do the conversion, size the image for the web, and also strip out any metadata.
But you can also (working on a duplicate) use image > convert to profile. -
PS CS6 Smartobject - Changing color space not working
If I initially open a smartobject from ACR into PS CS6 using one color space, eg. sRGB, should it then be possible to click back into ACR and change color space to Adobe RGB ???
This is important to me, since working most of the time in sRGB, batch editing lot's of files (for timelapse-video, hence sRGB), but sometimes it may be nessecary to go back and use Adobe RGB to make a best possible print of one of the stills.
This is not working for me. I thought I should be able to do absolutely non-destructive editing when working with smartobjects from ACR, but this may seem to not be the case.
OleI understand now that a copy of the original RAW file is made when working with SO.
Still, when checking what color space I am working in (in PS CS6), after changing from sRGB to aRGB, PS still tells me I am working in sRGB!!
So what I am asking, going back from a SO in PS, into ACR, to change the color space, does not work.
Is there a workaround for this?
Or is it something I still do not understand here?
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