Field Order on Final Burn

Hello,
What I did. I made video in PP CS3. Exported to mpeg-2 using adobe media encoder. Made dvd from adobce encore cs3. I then deleted the original dv-avi (need to buy more storage but didn't have time); DVD Played fine no problems; I then saw I needed to fix an error. So I only had the mpeg-2 file. Went back in PPcs3 and fixed the error. Used Adobe media encoder again to export as mpeg-2 again all default didn't change field order. When I compile the DVD the second time around in Encore cs3 the dvd plays back like I chose to do upper field first this time. Fast motion is strobe like.
Does re-encoding an mpeg-2 file cause problems??
Any suggestions or comments would be great for this newbie.
Thanks

Burning to DVD would not cause this to occur.
Recompressing to MPEG-2 is the most likely the source of the trouble. It sounds as simple as the field order not matching. You could start by trying to find the field order of the source and the MPEG-2 setting.

Similar Messages

Motion "Field Order" setting not being honored by Final Cut Pro

I was having a doozy of a time bringing Motion files into a Final Cut ProRes 4444 Timeline (the entire project is basically motion). While my field order in both Motion and my Final Cut sequence was set to none, Motion text and graphics became blurry once I dragged them into Final Cut. I finally realized that (after stumbling upon this post http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1967373) that Final Cut was resetting the field order of the Motion project to Upper. It was said in this post that this was a bug. As this post was from April 2009 and it seems to still be happening, I'm assuming the bug hasn't been fixed, but does anyone know of a workaround avoid having to go into each Motion file in the timeline and switching the field order manually? Thanks!

AFAIK, you have to switch them manually. You can select multiple clips, do ⌘9, then in the multiple selection window, right click on the Field Dominance and one at a time, set it to None (or whatever you need). It's pretty quick.
Patrick

Field Order/Dominance question

I've been noticing that spots I've produced that air on my local cable network appear to be having problems with jerky movement of elements created in Motion. I thought that maybe the field order was set wrong on my Motion projects. (I should add that I'm doing "the big no-no" by only monitoring these on my computer and not on a TV monitor. I know, I'll have to remedy that someday.) Anyway, I'm using the "NTSC Broadcast SD" preset and that means field order is lower/even. I'm definitely rendering these out with field rendering on (Apple ProRes, btw) as I can see the interlace combing when viewing the output file.
I thought I'd try an experiment by creating a Motion project that would expose interlacing problems in the worst way and then render it out of Motion three ways: lower, upper and none. I then encoded these to mpeg-2 using Squeeze and burned them to a DVD (in DVDSP) to view on my consumer DVD player and SD television. (Remember, that's the only way I can view them played back interlaced...) To my surprise both the upper and lower movies looked terrible and the one rendered with no field dominance looked the best.
What gives? Any ideas? Does this seem right?
Thanks!
--Kurt Cowling

Wow Iain, you know waaaay more about this than I do. In fact, I asked a question in the iDVD area of this board many moons ago regarding whether or not there was some sort of metadata or tag that let iDVD know if the incoming file was interlaced or progressive and the response was basically "I don't know for sure, but I don't think so".
Anyway, I can confirm what you say regarding the output of ProRes files. The content is interlaced, but when clicking the deinterlace button in the advanced area of QuickTime player nothing happens.
I tried as you suggested and opened the "Advanced..." area of the output settings in Motion and found that interlace was indeed not checked in the ProRes settings. When I output a file after checking that box I can also confirm that the deinterlace button in QT player did actually deinterlace the display of the file.
I normally output my Motion projects in several layers and bring them back into FCP (as rendered video, not Motion files) to composite them with the underlying camera footage. (Makes later changes and updates easier to deal with for my workflow.) I then export the composite out of FCP as uncompressed SD and then proceed to encode for FTP delivery from there (usually H.264). I opened a recent uncompressed file that was output from FCP and found that it suffered from the same problem, namely that the file was not tagged as interlaced, even though the content was interlaced.
I then opened one of the H.264 files that was encoded from the uncompressed master. Same issue again.
The one thing I haven't tried (yet) is outputting my test project from Motion as described in my first post (but with the files tagged correctly this time!) and see if the DVD that gets burned plays correctly. I will try this in the next day or two.
I don't know what happens to my files after I FTP them to the cable provider, but I assume they must transcode them from H.264 into their system. If the files aren't tagged as interlaced then their system is probably treating them incorrectly, as well.
This brings me to the final question(s) that may solve all of this for me:
Is there a way to change just the metadata/tag in an existing QuickTime file (so that it is tagged correctly as interlaced) without having to re-render from the beginning? Also, It appears that FCP may suffer from the same issue since it obviously uses QT to export, just like Motion. If I correctly tag a file rendered from Motion and then import it into FCP and FCP doesn't then pass the correct tag on output to uncompressed I still have the same problem. Or, if FCP tags the uncompressed file correctly, but QT doesn't pass this along to the H.264, I'm still screwed. Hence, my question at the top of this paragraph! I think I really only need the last file I handle before FTPing to have the correct tag, since the content has been fine all along.
Thanks so much Iain for looking into this! I would never have found this on my own. I'm not exactly sure if this is a bug or just a bad implementation, but this seems like a bad oversight for sure and not something that could be figured out from reading the manual.
--Kurt
p.s. I will try some more experimenting with this and hopefully can come back and marked this thread as "question answered" since a workaround seems doable. Iain, would you be willing to submit this to Apple as a bug report? You seem to have a much better handle on this than I do.

Motion and Field Order Stupidness

I'll try not to rant too much.
But what is up with Motion and working with DV NTSC video with fields? I have had nothing but headaches. I am a long time After Effects user, and I was glad to get Motion 2 (2.1.2), but I've just spent the last hour and half trying to get it to render DV NTSC video correctly without it getting field jitter on a project that needed to be over-nighted to go on the air. And it still doesn't look totally correct. (I'm not a happy camper)
Here's the deal, I took DV captured footage from FCP using the standard DV/DVCPRO - NTSC preset I've used forever. That footage was imported into a Motion project that was using its own NTSC DV project preset (all lower fields -even). But every time I'd play it back in Motion, or render it out (still using the NTSC DV render preset), I get serious field jitter on DV output.
Eventually I found under the Inspector-Media tabs that the footage was imported as Field Order- None (why I have not a clue). So I changed all the footage to Lower (even). That worked on any footage where size, rotation, or position was not changed. If any of those attributes was changed I get the field order jitter. It seems to me that Motion is not able to render out field ordered video properly and the quality looks poor or jittery.
Now that might seem hasty to say that, but I've been doing the same thing in AE for years, never having to change the imported field order to get it to look right and I have always captured, imported, work with projects and rendered using the QT DV/DVCPRO - NTSC presets.
Can someone help me because I can not believe I've had to change so many setting to try to get video to look right from Motion while using the same settings during the entire workflow.
Thanks, and sorry for the rant.
PowerMac Dual 2.0 G5, PowerMac Dual 1.42 G4, iBook 800 G3, Mac mini 1.42 G4 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

Hey, thanks for the replys.
[....you might want to try using the animation codec..millions of colors...]
I gave that a shot this morning, and I'm having the same problem. See what's going on now is after changing the Field Order to even for the footage media, all of it looks decent except for the ones on an angle, croped or resized and I see this in both Motion's preview and the final render when I play it back in FCP. So as per your suggestion I rendered with the animation codec (filed rendering) and it still has it. Its just odd to me that it does that, like I said before I've worked in the DV/DVCPRO - NTSC codec with FCP and AE for years with no quality degrade. The reason I have always do that is that's what I capture to and that what my FCP project is so to keep it all consistant. BTW, this is going network and cable, no different than I usually do.
[...are you enabling field rendering in the Canvas or in the export settings?]
Yes I am, sorry, I should have pointed that out. I have done combinations of different QT codecs with and without field rendering turned on to see different results. None of course resolves this issue.
Thanks
PowerMac Dual 2.0 G5, PowerMac Dual 1.42 G4, iBook 800 G3, Mac mini 1.42 G4 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

Combination HD/SD and field order

Hello all -
I have a program which combines 1080i60 and 480i video in a 1080i60 timeline. The 1080i footage was captured through a Kona LHe, upconverted from 720p30 and 480i DVCAM by the JVC deck. The SD footage was captured as uncompressed SD from Beta SP using the same Kona.
My question has to do with managing the field order for encoding to SD mepg for DVD.
When I send the sequence to compressor, the mpeg preset defaults to upper field dominance (top first). I am used to specifying SD encodes as bottom first, but left it set that way for my first test, figuring this would correspopnd to the field order oof the source. What I seem to be seeing is that only the SD clips are winding up with reversed fields. I could be wrong, and I need to check it a little more carefully, since a lot of the footage originated as progressive anyway.
However, my question is, if in fact it is only these clips, which is the best way to address this:
- change the field dominance of the SD master clips in FCP?
- apply a field reversal filter to the clips in the sequence?
- de-interlace the clips in the sequence?
- change the field dominance in my Compressor preset?
I'd be interested to find out more about how the field dominance is managed by FCP when upconverting, downconverting, and combining formats is handled when capturing, editing, and exporting. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks -
Max Average

Upon further inspection (viewing the DVD on a CRT) it looks like the fields are ok after all.I wa seeing the fields in simulator, which is normal, but the field order looks correct on the final disc.
I am noticing one very strange effect on a clip that has been slowed down, however, where the fields seem to be getting interpreted in the wrong order, resulting in a back-and-forth motion. Again thie clip is interlaced SD in an HD sequence.

What field order when editing AVCHD in SD timeline?

Hi,
I have some AVCHD 60i footage which will be output to DVD. Reading different ways of editing HD I finally decided to edit the HD footage in an SD timeline since it will never be output to anything other than SD and I then have the ability to zoom around a bit more if needed.
I know I should be editing an interlaced timeline but when I select DV NTSC I get "Lower Field First" by default, whereas I have read that AVCHD interlaced footage is Upper Field First. I do know that DV and SD are different. If I just create a 720x480 29.97 upper field first timeline will I be ok or is the final m2v output expecting one field order of the other?
I will export my final timeline as a lagarith AVI which I will then have Encore encode for me.
Thank you for your suggestions!
-Stephen

Thank you both for your input. I also thought that having a smaller scale timeline would speed up rendering of effects, but maybe I'm mistaken.
I'm exporting as Lagarith AVI because I cannot, not matter what settings I use, get a crisp image when exporting direct to m2v. I always get noticable artifacting around the edges. The AVI appears to minimize this at least a little. I am using Max Rener Quality and Render and Maximum Depth.
But without getting on a tangent on those, it sounds like it IS ok then for me to edit the AVCHD footage (upper field first) in an upper field first timeline and then export (either m2v or avi) as an upper field first file?
I'll keep working on the encoding (been working on it for 2 days) to see why the artifacting is going on.
Thank you again,
-Stephen

PE4 File Export giving wrong field order

In PE4, when I execute File-Export with the following settings:
General/File Type: Microsoft DV AVI
Video/Compressor: DV PAL
Keyframe and Rendering/Fields: Upper Field First
It creates the AVI OK, but GSPOT shows that the AVI is Lower Field First, not Upper Field First as specified in the settings.
Why? Is this a bug or does selecting DV force LFF (if so, then why isn't the UFF option greyed out in the settings?).
What I am trying to do is create some smaller sub-projects in the form of AVI's, which I will eventually import into a final large project. The source files for the subprojects are mpgs from an HD camcorder, so they are Upper Field First (UFF), and so I am using the PAL Harddisk project preset, which expects source files to be UFF.
Since my final project will include both UFF mpgs and those AVI subprojects, I want the AVIs to be UFF also, so that I don't have to selectively reverse field orders etc.
Is this wrong?
Thanks
Dave

==> "You can even use Premiere Elements for the conversion by applying field order reversal and then exporting to DV-AVI."
Splitting hairs I know, but again to clarify for me:
For the initial conversion to DV-AVI, if I start a project in PE4 with a UFF preset, bring in my UFF mpgs, then export to DV-AVI (WITHOUT applying field order reversal), is this doing the same as what you suggest? That is, in this case, the field reversal is taken care of by PE4 behind the scenes because I told it to do so by using a UFF preset? Or do I still need to manually reverse the fields?
Sorry to be dense, but there seems to be many ways to do the same thing, and I'm trying to figure out the simplest and least error prone way to do it.
Dave

HD-SD mpeg2 field order

Hi everyone,
I'm working on the HD show using ProRes(HQ) HD with Upper Field & need to make a SD dvd; so which field order am I need to choose?
Am I need to set the field to LOWER since it's SD? or just leave it at "same as source" which is upper field in the HD movie.
I know DVD can play progressive, but what if our source is upper field? any conflict w/NTSC spec?
thanks.
J

Upon further inspection (viewing the DVD on a CRT) it looks like the fields are ok after all.I wa seeing the fields in simulator, which is normal, but the field order looks correct on the final disc.
I am noticing one very strange effect on a clip that has been slowed down, however, where the fields seem to be getting interpreted in the wrong order, resulting in a back-and-forth motion. Again thie clip is interlaced SD in an HD sequence.

Field order problem I think

I just burned through 10 dvds and they all look terrible. There are all these wavy lines. Is this a field order problem? If so, how do I correct it. I have missed my deadline and I am in big trouble. Please help.
Thanks

I just burned through 10 dvds and they all look
terrible. There are all these wavy lines. Is this a
field order problem? If so, how do I correct it. I
have missed my deadline and I am in big trouble.
DV formats ALWAYS use field 1 dominance -- LOWER FIELD FIRST!
Since your content was created in a graphics program and not a DV camcorder, be sure to read through: http://www.greatdv.com/video/fields.htm
BTW, It's ALWAYS the best idea to create a disk image out of iDVD (an option under FILE). Verify the image plays correctly with Apple's Disk Utility and then make the actual burns to writable media with Apple's Disk Utility or Roxio's Toast. Use quality DVD-R media (Verbatim or Maxell) and burn at 4x speed or lower.
F Shippey

Field order issues after export to DV Pal from uncompressed

We are experiencing some difficulty exporting clips from FCP to our Omneon Server for TX.
We are capturing 8 bit uncompressed (AJA and Blackmagic) from digibeta for our edit and all editing stays in uncompressed until final output. Our transmission system demands DV PAL files so we export finished items as DV PAL in FCP and drop onto the server
Our problem is that on playback from the server, the field order is incorrect. Although the exported DV clips properties show lower field order, the clip is obviously playing upper field first. If we capture and edit in DV and export the DV file to the server, then we have no problems. I have tried
exporting uncompressed clips to DV via Compressor and changing the field order in frame controls but no success. It seems that when a clip is captured and edited in upper field it hangs onto that status even after conversion to DV!! Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

when you drop one of your 8 bit uncompressed source clips into your DV PAL timeline, is FCP correctly adding the Shift Fields filer to those timeline instances?
do you edit in 8-bit uncompressed and then export direct to DV PAL or do you nest your 8 bit uncompressed sequence into a DV PAL sequence first and then export as Quicktime Movie w/ current settings? if not the latter, try it (and make sure your nest has the Shift Fields filter applied)

Compressor Saying Progressive on Upper Field Order Footage?

Hi all,
I have Upper field order 10Bit Uncompressed PAL footage in a proper timeline.
When I export it (not self contained) and open it in QuickTime or FCP, all is well.
So is it odd that when I add the file to Compressor and select it, in the Inspector the Field Order is set to Progressive? It is a drop down menu so I can select Upper, but then it asks me to save it which I chose not to do. If I add an MPEG-2 preset to it, it "auto" detects the file and says Progressive.
What's the deal? Should I simply modify the MPEG-2 preset drop down menu to Upper before I submit the batch?
Thanks,
Jason
G5 Quad 2.5Ghz, 30" Cinema HD Display, Final Cut Studio, CS2 Suite Mac OS X (10.4.9) Powerbooks, other Powermacs, iBooks, iMacs, etc...

OK, here you are,
Original footage :
Original Footage Interpretation:
Render Settings :
Output Module Settings :
Format Options :
Re-imported Footage :
Interpretation of re-imported footage :
The End and Thanks~~

HDV to DVD interlace field order - depends on export path!

Summary: Export... -> Using Compressor versus compressing an Export... -> QuickTime Movie file, produces different field orders in the resulting MPEG.
In Detail: Here is my HDV to DVD (MPEG2) process;
Create a DV sequence, and drop the HDV into it, it gets resized, and has a filter to shift the fields by +1 added to it, and is scaled to the correct size for 4:3 (letterboxed) or 16:9 (fills 720x480) - which is fine.
Set the Quicktime Video Compressor for the sequence to 'None', and set the Video Processing -> Motion Filtering Quality to 'Fastest (linear)' as I don't like what Normal or Best does to the image (makes it pixally, check in the canvas).
Now, if you Export -> Using Compressor, and setup a 2-pass mpeg 2 encode, you get a very good image, no via - DV artifacts. I also add the channel blur, set to 1 on all channels, if its too sharp - channel blur does not blur between fields, like flicker filter does, so the motion is not compromised, and looks excellent, but it stops sharp still images from flickering.
However, this is really slow, FCP is tied up, and for a 2 pass encode, any blur or colour filters get applied twice, its also harder to hand this off to a second machine to get on with.
So, logically, you would instead, Export... -> QuickTime Movie... -> Current Setting, Make Self Contained and then load that into Compressor, apply the SAME settings you did Using Compressor... At which point, the FUN begins.
I have finally narrowed down, that this changes the field order, although I nearly went mad discovering it - every time I thought my little 10 second test worked, (exported from the timeline) I would save the whole thing out and compress it, only to find, the interlace order changed, and now needed the field shift removed! And, because my little test worked, I would then do the whole thing, some 20+ hours later, only to find it was wrong!
Export... -> Using QuickTime Conversion... is the same as QuickTime Movie...
Anyone else with experience of this ? It was maddening! But I think I am over the worst of it now! Is there any solution for unifying this for all export methods ?
When it works DVD's encoded from HDV look amazing.
When it works.....
FCP 5.0.4
Compressor 2.0.1
PowerBook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.4)

Hi Ben,
Ignore the Apple-0 (zero) part - that's just the key shortcut for the sequence settings. (press the Apple Key, and a Zero key with a sequence selected)
So, from the top: (although I'm not in front of my machine right now, so this is from memory)
Create a new DV sequence, 4:3 or 16:9.
Drop the edited HDV sequence into the DV sequence.
De-select the HDV sequence in the DV time line, bring up the Sequence Settings Dialogue for the DV sequence. (make SURE it isn't the sequence setting dialogue for the HDV sequence)
In the sequence setting dialogue, change the codec from DV to None (note - not the same as Uncompressed). If it's currently HDV, you have the wrong sequence, leave it as HDV, close the dialogue, and bring up the setting for the DV sequence.
On the 'Video Processing' tab, for the DV sequence, set the 'Motion Filtering Quality' to 'Fastest (linear)'
Choose OK to close the settings dialogue.
If you want to, and it depends on your footage, add the following blur filter to the HDV sequence in the DV timeline:
Select the HDV sequence in the DV timeline, right click (or hold ctrl key, and click) on the HDV sequence in the DV timeline, and choose the top item in the pop-up menu, 'Open' (in viewer). Click the filters tab of the viewer, you will see the Shift Fields filter, set to +1, added by FCP, add the channel blur, above the shift fields filter. Set the blur to 1 on each channel. I prefer this to the Video -> Flicker Filter, as channel blur does not blur between fields, so it does not blur motion.
I discovered this by accident
Now Save, the following sometimes crashes FCP. Check it in the Canvas viewer, set to 100%, with the channel blur, around text and sharp contrast areas, you get a nice soft blur, turn off that filter if you think its too much.
On to the encoding:
The simplest step, is to choose the DV timeline, and export via compressor. Pick a 2 pass MPEG preset, that matches the 4:3 or 16:9 of the sequence, and submit. This takes a while, on slower machines.
The alternative, which can reduce the time, is to export the DV sequence as an uncompressed QuickTime file - this does not change the quality at all - but can speed things up, because FCP is quite slow at delivering frames to Compressor, compared to Compresser just reading the frame from an uncompressed file, Compresser has to read them twice for 2 pass MPEG encoding. However, you need a lot of fast disk space to store the uncompressed footage.
Hope this helps.
Keep the replies / mail on these boards, that way they stay useful to all!
It was great weekend in Vancouver, wasn't it ?
Hit the beach on Sunday, good times

Field order errors from Color

I onlined a job recently that had been done in 10-bit uncompressed (PAL). The final edit an hour-long documentary) had been sent to Color for grading, and I was picking up the job to finalise it (adding captions, titles etc. the usual stuff).
The colourist had rendered the clips, but hadn't sent them back to FCP. When I opened the projects in Color it had lost the reference to the rendered files, so I couldn't send them to FCP, so I imported the folders containing the rendered clips into FCP, and layed them back into the final edit as a new layer.
All ok so far.
When I came to play the clips, they were flickering as if they had the wrong field structure, and I had to add a shift fields filter to make them correct. The original clips, the rendered clips from Color and the sequence were all set to 10-bit uncompressed, upper field, so I'm perplexed as to why I had to do this.
I checked Color and it's set to render out in the original format.
I had to render the entire timeline because of the shift field filter, which took 3 hours! Can anyone shed some light on the problem and a solution to prevent it happening again?
I've posted this in the Color forum as well.
Cheers
Steve

I've encountered an issue similar to this with NTSC DV coming back with reversed field order. It may just be in the nature of COLOR to assume that all media is odd/upper HD. You used to be able to buy Final Touch in three variants: SD, HD and 2K. They were individually built to make the field dominance issues moot, but now that there is only "COLOR", there may still be a few old prejudices lingering. This app does not do well with interlace, and a giant problem with it is only a flick of the wrist away.
It was probably not a good idea to render the media out of COLOR without creating a new FCP sequence.
jPo

Field order in multi group report

Whilst using the wizard to construct a report using multiple query groups the final report seems to ingnore the field order I set. Is this yet another bug in reports? Does anyone have a work round? I'm I missing something?

It has been resolved! thanks anyway

Create random order slideshow and burn to dvd

I am trying to create a random order slideshow and burn it to a dvd playable on a dvd player. I tried creating the slideshow in iphoto using the album mode, and was successful in creating the slideshow, but cannot save, export or burn. Would appreciate any help.

Thanks for your help!
I am trying to make a slide show of 900+ photos. I moved the photos from a CD into iPhoto. Originally I tried Magic iDVD, dropped the photos from the Event zone into the drop zones in Magic iDVD, chose a theme and previewed. The slides were shuffled from the beginning, and at first I thought that some of the themes allowed the shuffling of the slides as an effect. However, I did notice that the slides remained in the same order regardless of the theme chosen, but wasn't sure why this was the case. I then made the mistake of trying to eliminate a few of the slides and divide the slides more evenly between the two drop zones. I went back to the Event, opened the folder and selected the photos to be included and moved them to a new folder. From that point on the "shuffle" of the photos was gone and the photos appeared in the order in which they were taken. I spent several hours of trial and error trying to reinstate the shuffle, called Apple, talked with various Apple help and more expert users and finally ended up seeking help from the discussion boards where I found the post explaining how to create the shuffled slideshow in the Albums area of iPhoto . This is exactly what I am looking for--shuffled photos and random transitions! Unfortunately, it seems as though you can only view this slideshow from the computer. Now I am looking for another way to do the same thing. I am new to Apple, and trial and error is extremely time consuming and in this case not very productive. If there is a software program which will create a random shuffle (either Mac or Win) I can always create the shuffle and then import the photos back into the Events folder and create the DVD. Any help/ideas for a successful completion of this project are welcome! Thanks.

Field Order on Final Burn

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