HDV or AVCHD

Posting this question here although I'll probably be using both im08 and imHD. I was horrified when I first saw im08, but after giving it a whirl and finishing 6 10 minute movies in a day, I was fairly impressed by im08.
I'm taking the plunge and going for a new HD cam, my current cam is a canon xm2, it's given me good service but it's mainly home movies and it's so bulky I miss many shooting opportunities just because I leave it at home most of the time. So I'm going for a compact consumer type cam instead this time only I'm not sure if it should be HDV or AVCHD.
I'm tending to the AVCHD models at this time based on a couple of assumptions I've made, I'd be grateful for any comments about my assumptions before I actually make a choice.
1. I'm assuming HDV is recorded around 40 Mbps and from what I've seen the better quality AVCHD settings record at 15 Mbps. So that's 40 Mbps MPEG2 GOP vs 15 Mbps MPEG4/10, so I imagine that's pretty much a draw in a contest for quality.
2. I can store my original material on the mini DV tapes if I go for HDV. I assume I don't need to 'capture' AVCHD in the sense that I do with HDV and can effectively just copy the AVC files from the cams HD to the HD on my mac, in which case I can archive the original material to DVD at the rate of about 30 minutes per DVD.
Additionally, should I be aware of any importing issues with either of these formats in respect of both im08 and imHD.
Finally, whether I go for HDV or AVCHD, my choice already seems to be Canon or Sony. Two areas of interest divide me between these companies. Digital stills: Sony win hands down - 6MP to Canons 3MP, on the other hand I believe Canon's image stabiliser is vastly superior, which is a big thing for me, anyone know whether this is true or maybe just exaggerated.
In addition to that which I've raised, any other comments would be gratefully received.

OK. Had my camera an hour or so now. Here's what I've found so far.
im08 imports from the camera in AIC, which is anamorphic 1440 x 1080 at about 80 Mbps, so I'm not sure where everyone is getting their 960 x 540 from. This intermediate format also drops right into imHD with no problem at all.
I've got easy access to the original files on the camera via USB, but haven't yet got around to figuring how to archive these transport streams which is something I would like to do since they are considerably smaller than the AIC files obtained through im08.
I have a couple of tv's which will be my target for export for the foreseeable future. My simplest export option is export to QT using the tv preset, which gives me a file of 960 x 540 at 4+ Mbps. This resolution is clearly less than the maximum tv resolution of 720p but the tv won't support this resolution at 30 fps.
Being a PAL user my frame rate is 25 not 30, which will play on the tv at 720p, I've carried out a few trials and managed to get the tv to play 720/25p at 8 Mbps without a problem by exporting using QT to mpeg-4, it fails to play if I increase the bitrate further to 10 Mbps.
Of note I have not been able to detect any difference in quality between the 960 x 540 4 Mbps export and the 720p 8 Mbps export when I watch them on my 50" HD plasma. So unless further trials reveal any difference, I'll simply use the QT tv preset for exporting from both im08 and imHD.

Similar Messages

What is better hdv or avchd?

I am about to be a reporter for my school's morning
news program and am not sure whether to get hdv or
avchd? I have a 1 year old Macbook Pro (not current
generation but siliver one with 2.4 ghz 2gb ram and
200 gb hard drive) with imovie 08 and will probably
also be editing in final cut express 4. If you had to
choose between the hv40 and hf s100/hf s10/hf s11
for reporting in the field, which would you chose? I
have heard that avchd has had some problems. Is one
easier to edit than the other? We still broadcast in sd
but have lots of hd cameras. Does the video ever skip
when imported? What about rendering and capturing
video? I am looking for the best video quality possible
and something that is future-proof, but need to edit
this video a lot, and probably will be needing to shoot
about 40 60 minutes of video at a time. My school has
pro and prosumer hdv cameras. Would I run into any
probelms when broadcasting avchd for my case? Please
help me out and I thank you in advance.
Message was edited by: 12mill

12mill wrote:
.. I assumed that the HD cameras were just better in terms of quality even though they we broadcast in standard definition. Is this true?..
this is a very complex issue, when you leave your living room at home = work only with one camera, one computer, one delivery device ..
integration into a structure of editors, rooms, delivery-chains, etc.. a diff. cup of tea..
can others handle your files and hardware?
what about archiving?
what about indexing?
technically, for sure a better input results in better output.
but..
HD is 4-6 more data than SD
HD isn't handled 'natively', you have always add conversion-times on input + render times on ouput
there are diff. standards for HD
no-tripod looks in HD/70" TFT even more worse than SD..
the main assets of each format imho:
• HDV allows easy storage of raws AND of final edits => excellent long-term storage
• SDcard is small and ultra-fast in preview, some models allow 2-8Mpixel-stills WHILE video recording
pic quality is defined by camera (optics, chip size and number, bitrate).
and handling.. a 1/4000 shutter speed in a candle lighted room could result in bad pics..

What should I get, HDV or AVCHD camera.

I'm looking to get a new camera and I'm looking at most likely getting a Sony camera. I'm wondering which will work better and easier with Final Cut. I'm just stuck in deciding between a Hard disk drive camera that will record in AVCHD or one that records on mini DV tape in HDV. Im mainly looking for which has higher quality and greater ease of use.
Thanks

What version of FCP are you running? AVCHD support is officially limited to FCP 6.0.1 and I'd be wary until the accepted wisdom is that this is a straightforward workflow with no quality loss.
You state that your primary objectives are output to the web as video podcast or to DVD. As such I believe you're wasting your time looking at both proposed formats.
AVCHD workflow is unproven IMHO, HDV is wasted on video podcast/web output and you'll struggle to find a Blu Ray burner to output BluRay DVDs and the red dye HD DVDs you can output will only work in 1 player.
HDV editing brings it's own difficulties as stated and suggesting the HVX-200 with its associated P2 cost is plainly ridiculous for your budget.
I ain't impressed with 3 x 1/5" CCDs either - whatever the camera.
Get a 3 x 1/4.7" CCD Panasonic PV-GS500 (or GS400 if you can find one) or Sony DCR-HC96 for straightforward Standard Def workflow unless you want no inexpensive external monitoring or long render times (without converting to a more editing friendly codec via capture card = more expense).
There's life left in Standard Def and you'll still get decent quality if you're on a tight budget and wait till HDV/HD/AVCHD or whatever becomes cheaper/easier to work with in the future.
Camera technique is more important than format - don't forget, if you're shooting hi-def for large screen viewing (and it's pretty pointless if you aren't), focus is so much more critical for one thing - I'd much rather work with and watch stuff shot by someone who knows one end of their DVX100 from the other, rather than some eejit who knows nowt but is using an expensive all-singing, all-dancing Hi-Def offering.
IMHO, of course.

HDV or AVCHD editing = processor utilization = import/exp. quality loss

Hello,
my question about processability of HDV/AVCHD Movies with iMovie. I have learned that HDV and AVCHD files are transfered in the AIC format. That should mean editig a movie would be always in the AIC format and I assume no difference whether I come from HDV or AVCHD format it should be similar demanding to the core2duo processor except initial transcoding from H264 to AIC - is this right?. When I save a movie out of iMovie do I save it in AIC or in HDV/AVCHD? Is there a quality loss transferring a movie back and forth from/to HDV/AVCHD to AIC since HDV employs mpeg2 and AVCHD employs H264 which are both compressed formats? Practically does this also mean that AIC can work as a bridge to between both formats?
Thanks for your replies to my several questions!

I have cut/pasted this from another thread where I posted it following a question from a Canon HV20 owner. The info applies to all HDV and AVCHD cams though. Might help you decide.
This comes from www.camcorderinfo.com
Compression (7.0)
The Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) uses HDV compression, a very efficient MPEG-2 codec with a fixed data rate of 25Mbps, identical to the data rate of standard definition DV compression. HDV excels in capturing stunningly high-resolution video, but it is inferior to DV in terms of rendering motion realistically, due to its dependence on interframe compression. This means that at 1080i, only one in fifteen frames is a full-frame picture, while the intervening frames are compressed in relation to each full I frame. Interframe compression is much more efficient than intraframe compression, and allows HDV to squeeze a full 1920 x 1080 picture into a 25Mbps stream, recordable to inexpensive MiniDV tapes. DV uses intraframe compression, so each frame is a fully independent picture, allowing much better motion capture. DV also uses a superior 4:1:1 color space while HDV encodes via a truncated 4:2:0 color space.
The inherent weaknesses of HDV have led many networks to deem the format sub-standard for broadcast, but it is still the best high definition format available on the consumer camcorder market. Most consumers find the stunning resolution of HDV trumps the superior motion handling of DV. A professionally lit HDV interview (or any HDV shot without too much detail or motion) can look nearly as good as footage shot in a professional HD format on a $20,000 camera. AVCHD, a new HD format that uses H.264 compression was introduced in 2006 and compresses video even more aggressively than HDV. Our tests of Canon's UX1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $729.95) and SR1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1119.99) last fall show that while AVCHD video is very sharp, it suffers from grain and artifacts much more than HDV compression. The wildcard in the consumer high definition arena is a new MPEG-2 format developed by JVC, the MPEG Transfer Stream codec, which appears for the first time in the Everio HD7 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1529). MPEG Transport Stream compresses video at up to 30Mbps, and may rival or even outclass HDV compression.
Media (6.0)
Like other HDV camcorders, the Canon HV20 records to MiniDV cassettes, the same inexpensive and widely available format used by standard definition DV camcorders. MiniDV cassettes have a run time of 60 minutes in SP mode, but can hold up to 90 minutes of more compressed LP video. Unlike the DVD, memory card, and HDD formats, MiniDV tapes are linear media so moving clips to a PC from tape is a real-time process. For anyone serious about the quality of his or her video, HDV recorded to MiniDV cassette remains the best consumer HD option available. To date, consumer non-linear video formats do not support the highest-quality video compression codices for high definition (HDV) and standard definition (DV).

New camera: HDV or AVCHD??

Hi
b Q1: I am looking for a HD camera, I've used DV until now. I'll also upgrade to CS4. But which camera should I go for, or more specific, which format: HDV or AVCHD? Any camera suggestions (in the range of 1000-1500 USD (or about 10.000 NOK)
I have read a lot about the time issues using AVCHD, as well as other problems using this format. But it seems that, at least for someone, it does work.
About my usage:
- editing is just a hobby for me, so long rendering/exporting time is not a problem, as long as the(simple) editing works fine (that I preview transitions, added text, and some other "simple" effects without need to render first)
- for me would a HDD based camera be more convenient than a tape based HDV camera (that is why I "hope" to get a avchd camera instead of HDV)
b Q2: I have a Core 2 Duo 2,4 GHz, 2 GB DDR2 ram three disk system now, but will do some upgrades if neccessary (eg. 3xRAID 0, Quad core, some more ram)
b Q3 Which process is time consuming using AVCHD? importing to Premiere (but I guess you do not have to recode the files?), editing, and/or rendering/exporting to Blue ray?
b Q4 For those of you using AVCHD, and are happy about how its works, what kind of camera and system do you use?
Thanx
Nic

Hi,
my inputs are:
Q1:
if you like a nontape workflow --> Go for AVCHD
Why not using Premiere Elements 7 for your hobby? everthing is perfectly supported in the first round..
Q2:
With a reasonable Q6600 system you can play 2 AVCHD streams nearly readtime today, i.e. editable both in PPro CS4 and APE7
Q3
In my case to apply/render a redgiant filter to a clip is even more time consuming as to generate a BD, never was a problem for me
Q4
AVCHD isn't evil, it's only another animal to tame.
I use a Sony CX6E camcorder (memorysticks up to 32 GB), a monopod, a Zoom H2 for audio (forget the 5.1 ideas with cameras which even don't have limiter for the internal mic). If you would like to have some manual control I would suggest to look the Panasonic AVCHD consumer line.
My next investment will be most probably a Panasonic HMC151E (AVCHD)or a Sony FX1000 with a recorder attached --> both at least 200 % of your budget; in any case you touched only the surface of all components needed for this "new world" :-))
hber
SW Vista Ultimate 32 bit, Cubase SX 4.5.2, Triton Le, Adobe Master Collection, Izotope Ozone 3, Reason 4, Native Instruments Massive, Battery 3, VSL Vienna Suite, HW Intel D975XBX2, RME HDSP9632, Quad Q6600, 3 GB memory, Marvell 61xx 1 TB Raid 0 storage, GeForce 7600 GS silent, ext equipment MX200+166XL, Yamaha N12digital 5.1 mixing studio

Ingesting HDV and AVCHD in same project - workflow?

Whats the workflow with ingesting HDV and AVCHD into same project? Im guessing convert both to 'Apple intermediate codec' i think this is straightforward for avchd as is in prefs pane of log and transfer, but how do i do this for hdv?
Also set the avchd to record at 1080i or does it not make much difference once captured / pro ressed up.?

Bring both in as ProRes. Much more processor efficient.

Do HDV or AVCHD keep track of Date/Time like miniDV?

Do HDV and AVCHD have the time and date stored like miniDV does? I've done some searching and read through the HDV article on wikipedia and don't see this mentioned.
Thanks.

Anyone with any more info on this? According to what Tominlowa says it looks like the date/time info is stored on the AVCHD camera either in the video file or accompanying index files. I wonder how this works with HDV? Maybe I should be keeping manual logs when I shoot footage so years from now I will know what the date of my footage is.
Thanks.

Mixing HDV and AVCHD

I have a camera that captures in HDV but i am looking into purchasing a camera that captures in AVCHD.
Final Cut Express converts them to apple intermediate format but in order to edit in one sequence would this require additional transcoding??
Would i be able to use the HDV 1080i format when ingesting the AVCHD file?

As long as you shoot them in the same frame size, same frame rate, and edit them both in a 1440x1080i60 sequence then you won't have to render either of them. Editing them together should work fine as they've essentially been converted to Apple Intermediate Codec files which are indistinguishable.

Which Imports Faster HDV or AVCHD in FCE and iMovie?

I'm planning on getting my first HD camcorder and I'm leaning towards the HV-20 or HG-10. I'm leaning towards the HV-20 HDV. Tapes are cheap and a good archive medium and I'm leery of small hard drives being robust. Do AVCHD camcorders use similar drives as the iPod?
I've read AVCHD takes some time to import. Does HDV import faster to AIC?
Does FCE 4 import faster than iMovie 8 for both formats?
Thanks for any advice.
Kelvin

Import speed depends on your computer, but I think the the AVCHD and the HDV transcoding is about the same. It's all being done by QuickTime. AVCHD transfer gives you more options in terms of selecting clips and portions of clip, which is more difficult to do manually off tape. But, as you said, tape is cheap and a good archive medium.

AVCHD to HDV

Premiere Elements can import AVCHD but not export. Right?
Which means that editing AVCHD means convert to HDV. AVCHD is mpg4 compressed with resolution 1920*1080. HDV is mpg2 compressed with resolution 1440*1080, which at playback is interpolated to 1920*1080.
As far as I can see, this means that editing AVCHD means loss of data. Because the film must be recoded to another technical standard, which has lower resolution.
And after creating an HDV file, it may be relevant to turn that file into BLU-RAY, which should mean one more change of technical standard. Right?
How to minimize loss of information?
And yes, I understand that if I first create one HDV file, and then cut away part of it, there will be a new recoding, which should mean more loss of information.

There would be virtually no loss of data in interpolating frame size. Certainly no more so than in going from AVCHD or HDV to BluRay disc.
And, in Premiere Elements 9, the program edits AVCHD natively, if you select the right project preset for your camcorder. So there is no file conversion until you output your video.

AVCHD or HDV for your Editing?

Hi,
when come to the Editing stage, which is the format that you work pretty well and easier, HDV or AVCHD?

what media are you using? solid sate? (non-tape)?
I use use HDV (SONY V1E) and AVCHD (CANON HF100) but edit both in ProRes. ProRes is a very high quality editing codec, up to about 145Mb/s or 225Mb/s (HQ) which is going to be way more than your source footage. You can only ingest material as ProRes not ProRes (HQ).. but this wont be an issue as mentioned above.
Once your material is ingested FCP will auto detect your sequence settings once you start to place your clips in the timeline.
Tip (slightly off topic): Check your sequence Render settings: bit depth, if you are working with high qulaity graphics or serious about colour correction best to use the higher 10bit setting (from 8bit or RGB), and set your render quality to BEST (from Normal).

Original HDV/AVCHD vs AppleTV picture quality

I've read several posts where people complained about iMovie's AIC and AppleTV's HD quality. I have HD cable and a very nice 1080i TV, but with home movies I'm use to standard def DV (edited in iMovie and burned to DVD). I've shot with HDV and AVCHD, played them directly on the HDTV and certainly had the "wow" factor.
So the question is, once I take the HD original footage, import it into iMovie, save it for AppleTV and play it back on the same HDTV, how much of that wow factor will be lost? Will someone say "looks nice, is that hi-def? Or will they stare at amazement and say "me got to have that!"

There are several factors to take into account here.
Firstly the AVCHD as you know will be converted to AIC, AIC isn't uncompressed but it is pretty close so at this stage I doubt you will see any degradation (as much as you like your HD cam, remember it's a consumer camera, so in terms of quality it's not the best to start with).
There isn't really very much you can do with AIC due to its huge file size (data rate will be somewhere around 80/100 Mbps), so consider it an intermediate codec.
After editing you have your choice of conversions. You could export it out at full 1080 resolution at a relatively high datarate, because the video is being converted there will be some degradation but again you are not likely to notice this.
The tv will not however play these files and they will need further reduction in resolution and data rate. What these reductions are depends on whether you are using PAL or NTSC, for PAL you can export to 1280 x 720 @ 25 fps and a datarate of 5 Mbps, NTSC will be 960 x 540 @ 30 fps and a datarate of 5 Mbps. If you are using imovies tv preset, PAL will be exported also at 960 x 540, you'll need to use the manual settings to achieve 1280 x 720.
While the difference in quality after conversion for the tv, may well be noticeable, in my opinion it's certainly acceptable.
On the other side of things, if you want to edit your movies you are going to have to convert from AVCHD, tools for editing this format are effectively non existent. The PS3 and x-box may well play movies exported to 1080 at higher datarates than the tv, but handling such files becomes difficult. They are relatively large and will soon fill up the device, I doubt the PS3/x-box will handle streaming of these files very well. Delivery of full quality HD is still pretty much limited.
Finally. consider also your TV, although it accepts 1080 does it have an effective pixel display of 1920 x 1080, if it doesn't it may well be that the effects of such conversions are not as noticeable as if it did.

HDV & AVCHD independent of PAL and NTSC?

When purchasing a HDV or AVCHD camcorder do I need to care about PAL and NTSC standards?

Firstly, as pointed out in your other thread, you won't be able use it with iMovie 6.
PAL is what we use in Europe. NTSC is used in the USA. iMovie can import both.

AVCHD/HDV files with a MacBook Pro

I'm trying to decide between a AVCHD and HDV camera. A lot of people warn against the hardware needed to work with AVCHD files. But, are AVCHD files any more processor heavy than HDV? Once the files are imported, aren't both AIC at that point?
I am on a 2.16ghz Core 2 Duo with iMovie 8?

I have cut/pasted this from another thread where I posted it following a question from a Canon HV20 owner. The info applies to all HDV and AVCHD cams though. Might help you decide.
Compression (7.0)
The Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) uses HDV compression, a very efficient MPEG-2 codec with a fixed data rate of 25Mbps, identical to the data rate of standard definition DV compression. HDV excels in capturing stunningly high-resolution video, but it is inferior to DV in terms of rendering motion realistically, due to its dependence on interframe compression. This means that at 1080i, only one in fifteen frames is a full-frame picture, while the intervening frames are compressed in relation to each full I frame. Interframe compression is much more efficient than intraframe compression, and allows HDV to squeeze a full 1920 x 1080 picture into a 25Mbps stream, recordable to inexpensive MiniDV tapes. DV uses intraframe compression, so each frame is a fully independent picture, allowing much better motion capture. DV also uses a superior 4:1:1 color space while HDV encodes via a truncated 4:2:0 color space.
The inherent weaknesses of HDV have led many networks to deem the format sub-standard for broadcast, but it is still the best high definition format available on the consumer camcorder market. Most consumers find the stunning resolution of HDV trumps the superior motion handling of DV. A professionally lit HDV interview (or any HDV shot without too much detail or motion) can look nearly as good as footage shot in a professional HD format on a $20,000 camera. AVCHD, a new HD format that uses H.264 compression was introduced in 2006 and compresses video even more aggressively than HDV. Our tests of Canon's UX1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $729.95) and SR1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1119.99) last fall show that while AVCHD video is very sharp, it suffers from grain and artifacts much more than HDV compression. The wildcard in the consumer high definition arena is a new MPEG-2 format developed by JVC, the MPEG Transfer Stream codec, which appears for the first time in the Everio HD7 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1529). MPEG Transport Stream compresses video at up to 30Mbps, and may rival or even outclass HDV compression.
Media (6.0)
Like other HDV camcorders, the Canon HV20 records to MiniDV cassettes, the same inexpensive and widely available format used by standard definition DV camcorders. MiniDV cassettes have a run time of 60 minutes in SP mode, but can hold up to 90 minutes of more compressed LP video. Unlike the DVD, memory card, and HDD formats, MiniDV tapes are linear media so moving clips to a PC from tape is a real-time process. For anyone serious about the quality of his or her video, HDV recorded to MiniDV cassette remains the best consumer HD option available. To date, consumer non-linear video formats do not support the highest-quality video compression codices for high definition (HDV) and standard definition (DV).

What is the correct way to import AVCHD into Final Cut Express?

The Final Cut Expres user manual (p. 221) says to import AVCHD footage with HDV Apple Intermediate Codec: "Important: Use the HDV - Apple Intermediate Codec Easy Setup for ingesting AVCHD footage."
But, Easy Setup has options for both HDV AIC AND AVCHD AIC. Why are there choices for AVCHD if the manual says to import AVCHD with HDV?

The manual is incorrect/human error/typo.
HDV and AVCHD do share the Apple Intermediate Codec as all this incoming footage will be converted to AIC so FCE can work with it on a frame by frame basis.
Call up the FCE>Easy Setups and look at the options.
You will notice 6 options (FCE 4.0.1) for 1080i with differing frame sizes and frame rates.
Only ONE of these is correct for the type of footage to be captured/ingested from the camera.
You need to know what the camera settings are, then output to FCE with an exact matching Easy Setup.
These days one camera can be set to different options making this decision one based on knowing how to operate the camera menu and select the right options.
When an FCE Easy Setup is changed only NEW Sequences will reflect the change not existing ones. In fact, in many cases, if the Easy Setup and incoming footage don't match it simply won't work causing the user to curse the Apple software.
First step is to select the correct Easy Setup then capture/ingest.
For AVCHD it will be an AVCHD - Apple Intermediate Codec........................
Example:
Camera has shot AVCHD 1920x1080i50
Easy Setup will be AVCHD - Apple Intermedaite Codec 1920x1080i50
The above example is for PAL interlaced, that's what i50 means.
NOTE: FCE will not work directly with p (progressive) footage so make sure your camera shoots i (interlaced).
Al

HDV or AVCHD

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