Hierarchical keywords

Now that with LR 1.1 the db/library became finally usable, I wonder how consistent the keyword functionality in LR really is. On the left side we have the 'hierarchical keyword' panel which works great! However all the other keywording tools in the library module seem to deal always with single keywords. For example, if I have duplicate keywords at different hierarchy levels like in the following case:
things.vehicles.cars
events.2007.motorshow.cars
How do I deal with such cases when I use the keywording tool on the right panel? I think that the present mechanisms also enhances the probability for inconsistencies in the keyword tree because of typing errors. My feeling is that a single instance to define keywords in the hierarchical keyword tree and other tools to assign them to the pics would be the best, but maybe I simple don't fully understand the keyword concept in LR...

I have been taking a new look at some of my hierarchical keywords now that LR1.1 is out and am even more puzzled. I have a group of old images that had never been in LR, but had been re-organized in Vista Photo Gallery. When I tried importing some of them into LR1.1 they came in with the hierarchical tree intact in the Keyword Tags panel as pretty as you please with only the lowest level of the keyword chain displayed in Keywording. Then I copied a RAW file to my desktop, imported it into LR with no keywords, added the hierarchical keywords I had previously imported and exported the file to a new jpeg. Photo gallery added each keyword as a top-level keyword instead of adding them to the proper hierarchy. Those keywords are separated by commas in the picture/properties/details/tags field. What really puzzles me is that if I import a jpeg that I had previously exported from LR with a top level keyword and added to a keyword hierarchy in Photo Gallery it comes in with all the keywords in the hierarchy separated by a "/" even though I do have the "Treat "/" as a keyword separator" box checked in preferences. For my personal needs, it still more convenient to use only top level keywords in LR and to use the drag and drop method in Photo Gallery to organize them into hierarchies- at least until Adobe and Microsoft sort this out or someone shows me what I am doing wrong. Edit: I should say that I re-imported the just-exported jpeg file. It came in with the keywords separated by commas.

Similar Messages

Should I Avoid LR4 and Get LR3 Because of My Huge Hierarchical Keyword List?

I abandoned LR2 several years ago because it crashed from my hierarchical list of 12,000 keywords. (Botanical and common names and other terms.) I have been using CS5/Camera Raw/Bridge to manage and edit my images. The hierarchical list is necessary for my stock photo business.
I will soon be needing to compare and edit images for a book publication and gallery show and I am thinking I may need to return to LR so I can work more effciently. I do not care about not exporting some keywords or synonyms etc. I think (right now anyway) that it is fine that all keywords associated with the images get exported for my stock submissions. I ususally check off only the sub-keywords or sub-sub-sub keywords.
Here are my questions:
1) Is LR 3 able to handle my huge list of hierarchical keywords which is now larger than 12,000 words?
2) Should I upgrade to LR3 and not to LR4 to avoid the keyword mess I have been reading about but don't understand very well?
3) Is it possible to even upgrade to LR3 now that LR4 is released?
3) Would LR4 handle my keywords better or worse than LR2? Than LR3?
4) Is there a work efficiency reason to upgrade to CS6 without using any version of LR and continue using Bridge and Camera Raw as I have been?
5) Is there anything else I have not thought to ask? I am somewhat technically challenged and dread learning new software, having been burned in the past with ExpressionsMedia disaster and LR2 which crashed etc.
Thanks for any and all input from the forum!

I try to answer your questions. I also have a large list of hierarchical keywords (funny ... also botanical names) but not as much as you have.
1) I think that Lr3 is able to handle your list of keywords. I have not heard from anybody that there is a limit to the number of keywords that Lr is able to handle.
2) There seem to be some keyword issues in Lr4. My keywords were perfectly fine in Lr3 but after upgrading to Lr4 some of my keywords were not populated, meaning that the keywords themselves were listed in the keyword list but the image count showed 0. I still have my Lr3 catalog so was able to check (with Lr3) that, indeed, in Lr3 all the keywords in question were populated with the correct number of images. Fortunately there were not too many of these not-populated keywords, so I corrected the issue manually.
Since correct keywords are mandatory for your stock business, you are right in hesitating to upgrade to Lr4. In my opinion, the improvements that Lr4 offers over Lr3 are mainly in areas that are - probably - not so important to a stock business: improvements in the Develop Module and new Process Version, the Book Module, the map Module. On the other hand I would think that image management is paramount for you and in this area Lr4 is not much different than Lr3.
3) You will not be able to get an upgrade to Lr3 from Adobe now that Lr4 has been released. So you had to find a 3rd party vendor (B&H? Amazon?) who still sells Lr3.
4) Apart from the issue described above, I don't see any difference in keyword handling between Lr3 and Lr4. Lr2 is too far back for me - I don't remember.
5) My suggestion for you would be: You have to upgrade at some point. The longer you wait, the more difficult the transition will be because the differences of future versions to Lr2 will become greater. Since at the moment version 4.1 is in the works (there have been two RCs (Release candidates) of version 4.1 already), maybe it would be wise to wait until the final 4.1 version is out. maybe the keyword issues have been fixed.
6) You can "upgrade" to Lr4 and still have Lr2 on your system. All the Lr versions are stand-alone versions, not "plug-ins" for the previous versions. So you can have two (or more) different Lr versions on your system. So I would suggest that you upgrade to Lr 4.1 (once this version is out) but leave Lr2 on your system. When you Lr4 you will be asked if you want to upgrade your Lr catalog to Lr4 and you have the option of saving the Lr4 catalog as a different file, so that your Lr2 catalog is still available for Lr2 (Lr2 will not be able to work with the Lr4 catalog!). That way, if anything is amiss in Lr4 you can go back to Lr2 and work from there.

Hierarchical keywords and vista compatability

Any chance Lightroom could export/write Hierarchical Keywords that are compatible with Vista?
http://blogs.msdn.com/pix/archive/2007/02/01/hierarchical-tags-and-xmp.aspx
I expored a photo with hierarchical keywords in Lightroom and they did not appear in Windows Photo Gallery.
Looking at the jpg in notepad it appears that the parent/child relationship is not written in the XMP block. The keywords are instead flattened.

As far as I know there needs to be better standards on how hierarchical keywords are stored in XMP. It would be ideal if there was a standard to store hierarchical keywords in legacy ICPT fields, even though they were not designed for a hierarchy. Just getting everyone to agree on the delimiter would be a great help. I'd like to be able to store my hierarchical keywords on my jpg ICPT fields as a backup that is independent of side car files and ideally independent of any software, right now users have to jump through a lot of hoops to make keywords written in one application, perfectly compatible with another one.

Hierarchical keywords, collections and XMP

Hi, I tried to figure out how LR stores the hierarchical keyword tree in the XMP data. XMP data written by LR contains all the info to recreate the keyword hierarchy. While the keyword text strings are plain ascii, the keyword linking information seems to be in a block named <lr:privateRTKInfo>. Binary stuff... It would be great if there were some info by adobe on how to write XMP data for hierarchical keywords! Background is migration/duplication from another DAM. Also I dont see the need for 'collections' . There seems to be no other functionality than keywords and moreover 'collections' dont survive an XMP export/import (metadata->XMP->export, remove pic, import pic). I guess this is a bug... klaus

Nope. It's how it is. Collections, Snapshots, Virtual Copies and Stacks are not exported in XMP.

Hierarchical Keywords in Filter

Hello Everyone!
I have just moved from Windwos PSE8 with Organizer to PSE8 on Mac with Adobe Bridge. I am trying find my way in the Bridge application. Have searched and watched many videos on it over the internet but I still have one thing that is driving me nuts.
I realized that I could inport and understand my hierarchical keyword structure and have them showed up in the keywords panel (or whatever it is called) in an hierarchical way).
But when I try to use filter and filter my photos based on the keywords I can only see the deppest level word. For example, if I hava a Category of WildLife/Animal/Cat I can only see the keyword "cat". I may have another keyword like Toys/Fabric/Cat and in this case if I only specify the "cat" keywork I will end up with photos from both real and toy cats....
How can this be handled? One of the features that I loved from Organizer was the ability to seach based on differente hierarchical keywords.
Thanks a lot.
Paulo

iPhoto doesn't support hierardhical keywords. Only Aperture does. We don't know what Apple's plans are for updates to iPhoto as we're just users like yourself but you can put in a feature request to Apple via http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphoto.html.

Supplemental Categories to Hierarchical Keywords

Hey All,
I'm a convert first from iMatch, then to Media Pro and finally LightRoom. My files have got dot limited supplementalcategories fields in them, which Media Pro recognized okay and created hierarchical keywords, but LightRoom doesn't.
Is there a way to:
1) Get LightRoom to create the hierarchical keywords? I've parsed out a list of the keywords using exiftool, but trying to do an import in Lightroom has thus far been an exercise in fruition.
2) Assign the keywords as defined in the supplementalcategories?
Any ideas would be appreciated.
thanks
Chris

Yes,
I know LR supports hierarchical keywords.
All these files have dot delimited IPTC Supplemental Categories. LR sees them.
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.003.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.004.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.005.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.006.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.007.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.008.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.009.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.010.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.011.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.012.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.013.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.014.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.015.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.016.jpg
http://www.dubea.com/fotos/lr/20040315-Rain Gutter Regatta.017.jpg
The challenge is translating those supplemental categories into LR hierarchical keywords without reclassifying >10k images....
Any assistance is provided.
Another, related topic.
I'm refreshing IPTC data from my files intl LR and it's stuck near the end. I suspect one of the files has is corrupt. How do I figure out which file it's stuck on?
Thanks
Chris

Searching for hierarchical keywords

Hi,
I'm a newcomer to Aperture, and I have trouble using the hierarchical keywords.
For example, if I create the keywords Sport->Soccer and Sport->Hockey, and I assign the keywords Soccer and Hockey to some photos, how can I search for the photos carrying the parent keyword 'Sport', which is, according to Aperture documentation, automatically associated with the children keywords ? The keyword 'Sport' doesn't appear in the list of selectable keywords in the Keyword HUD, only the keywords 'Soccer' and 'Hockey' can be selected.
Can anybody help me ?
Thanks in advance.
Thierry (Brussels).

This is a very frequently requested feature, so I would not be surprised if we see it in the next version.
Meantime, either use the text search, or use a Keyword Keeper:
http://www.bagelturf.com/aparticles/metadata/keyhigh/index.html
It relies on the fact that the missing keywords will appear if there is an image in the project that uses them.

Assigning "hierarchical" keywords using Batch Change or Metadata Preset

Part of my keywording structure looks like this:
Men
     Basketball
     Golf
     etc.
Women
     Basketball
     Golf
     etc.
I know that true hierarchical keywords don't exist in Aperture. But when I assign keywords using the Keyword Controls or dragging from the HUD, the parent (men or women) is "attached" so you can search for the one you want.
I want to be able to assign the proper keywords using Batch Change or in a metadata preset during import. But I have yet to find a way to do this. Is there some hidden syntax for this? Or is it one of those impossible things in Aperture's current (and rather limited) keyword handling?

You're welcome.
A second copy of the iPhoto library on a second drive is always good. I once lost my backup drive and the system drive at the same time, because a lightning caused a power surge that killed both my macs system drive and the connected backup drive. I was lucky to have a bootable clone of the system drive as a second backup.
I like this version of the quote you cited:
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again.

Input hierarchical keywords?

An example of hierarchical keywords:
Transport / Trains / Diesel
Transport / Trains / Electric
Now when I input from a card I can select Die and Diesel will come up and it will assign all the Transport / Trains / Diesel hierarchical keywords to the selected input images.
But, what if I come back from a shoot of Steam trains. How do I enter:
Transport / Trains / Steam ?
Typing Steam puts a new keyword at the top level.
Thanks Peter

Bridgeworker,
You can enter hierarchical keywords into that import field. The form is Electric>Trains>Transport, which is the reverse of what you expect. In other words, the hierarchy shown when imported will be Transport>Trains>Electric
Also, by adding a comma separator you can apply multiple hierarchical keywords during import. For example, Electric>Trains>Transport, Victoria Station>London>United Kingdom>Places will be shown as:
Transport>Trains>Electric
Places>United Kingdom>London>Victoria Station
Edit: > symbol must be included when typing into keyword field so that Lr knows that you're creating a hierarchical structure

Hierarchical keywords via exif data

I am trying to import plant photos into Lightroom4 with their Family, Genus and Species along with Location keywords, by placing the data in the image using exiftool. But failing. One hierarchy seems to work, but not more. I can replicate what Lightroom creates, but it does not seem to read OK.

The problem is not really the exiftool command: rather that I have been
trying various combinations of exif data to create hierarchical keywords
on import.
I am using
exiftool -csv=test.csv .
with one image, and various contents of the HierarchicalSubject of the
csv file. I check what I have created using
exiftool IMG_0016.JPG | less
I added keywords within Lightroom and saved the metadata to see what it
wrote: it seemed to be HierarchicalSubject, Subject and Keywords. But I
seem to need just HierarchicalSubject when I import.
If I define keywords Big and small within Big, and create
HierarchicalSubject: Big|small
then on import I get the hierarchical keyword OK. But if I try to also
set up Big2|small2, by using
HierarchicalSubject:Big|small, Big2|small2
I get a single keyword small2 nested in "small, Big2", nested in Big.

Hierarchical Keyword Delimiters On Export. CS4 Has Them. Why Not Lightroom?

I've asked for this before. Allowing me the option of configuring Lightroom to insert "/" between hierarchical keywords would save me significant amounts of time depending on my subjects.

There are other things in the export dialog that can affect the size of the exported file.
Under file settings set an appropriate quality setting at least 80 or more and make sure you have not checked the "Limit file size box checked.
Or did you apply a crop to the file?

Hierarchical keyword selection not showing

In LR 2.1 I have some hierarchical keywords. For example:
location
arizona
grand canyon
In Bridge, if I assign "grand canyon" I can set a preference to tell it to automatically select the parents... SO, in my list of keywords for the image I have "grand canyon, arizona, location".
In LR, when I do this it doesn't appear to do the same thing... If I assign "grand canyon", arizona doesn't get a check, it gets a dash, as does location. And in the list of keywords for my image, only "grand canyon" shows up... Is there a preference somewhere (as in Bridge) for me to have the parents selected and show up as selected?
Part 2: SOME hierarchical keywords show up as a hierarchy in the keyword list for the image - something like "grand canyon > arizona, location". Why do SOME entries in the hierarchy show up with the ">" and others in the same hierarchy don't? Shouldn't it be "grand canyon > arizona > location" or at worst "grand canyon > arizona", arizona > location" or some such?

I've tried all three settings for the keywords, and as near as I can tell none of them provide any form of hierarchical display. The "Will Export" just seems to force a straight alphabetical list. Which I think is exactly the opposite of what I'm after.
Is there some way to keep the font from changing when I switch to Will Export? The font gets small, REALLY small.

LR4 - Hierarchical Keyword Metadata Writing Problem

Having found a problem with LR4 in reading hierarchical metadata from photo files, I now seem to have found a similar problem when writing metadata to files.
As before, I use hierarchical keywords with the "/" character as the separator in the photo files metadata.
Let's say I assign the keyword "Christmas" to a photo. This actually has the hierarchy "Events/holidays/Christmas"
When I write out the metadata to the photo, I want, and expect, the hierarchical keyword string to be written: Events/holidays/Christmas.
Instead, what I get are three separate keywords written out separated by commas: Events,holidays,Christmas.
This is pointless - LR4 has just destroyed my keyword hierarchy and just given me a flat list of keywords.
Is this a bug, or is this indeed expected behaviour of LR4? Because if it's the latter, then LR4 is not going to work for me as a metadata editor.
Thanks

That's the expected behavior of LR 3 and 4. Some background:
There is no widely accepted industry standard yet for handling hiearchical keywords. (The Metadata Working Group has defined a standard, but I don't know of any application that has implemented it yet.)
LR stores hierarchical keywords in the XMP:HierarchicalSubject metadata field (a non-standard field recognized by LR and Bridge), with the elements of the hierarchy separated by "|", e.g. Events|Holidays|Christmas. In the industry-standard field XMP:Subject, LR only stores non-hierarchical keywords. You can control whether the containing keywords (e.g. Events and Holidays) are also stored in the XMP:Subject field with the keyword options Export Containing Keywords and Include On Export.
Other non-standard approaches store hierarchical keywords in the XMP:Subject field, with the elements separated by "|", ".", or "/". For compatability, LR will recognize those hierarchical keywords when it reads metadata, controlled by the options in Preferences > File Handling. But LR always writes out its hierarchical keywords using its own non-standard approach.
Perhaps in a few years, the industry will have converged on a standard and implemented it.

How do I turn off hierarchical keywording in LR 5? The interface preference for auto complete is off and I still get California United State Country. I just want Caliofrnia.

How do I turn off hierarchical key wording in Lightroom? The Interface Preference for Auto Complete is already turned off, but I still get California>United States>North America when all I need is California.

You need to be signed in order to reply to posts.
One reason why you may see the hierarchical type format for the keywords is that you have keyword 'California' duplicated in your keyword list.
Lightroom will display them with "< Parent-keywords" appended to the end.
ie California < State < Country and California < United States
If you re-keyword the photos so they only use one version and then delete the duplicate keyword from your keyword list then it will display just "California".
Bruce

Option To Insert "/" Between Hierarchical Keywords

"Treat "/" as a keyword separator" works for me when importing on Vista. I would like to see it added as an option for export. For example, I have keyword hierarchies of Places/National Parks/Yellowstone and Wildlife/Bears/Grizzly in both LR and my Vista Photo Gallery. Having LR automatically insert "/" when I export would automatically add them to their proper place in Photo Gallery. I would expect that "Places/National Parks/Yellowstone,Wildlife/Bears/Grizzly" would pop up in Keyword Tags and that when exported the images would be added to their proper hierarchies. Of course, this should be optional.

So to sum up, I should be spending time devising a sensible keyword structure for the entire library, and then per project/import, select which keywords I'm likely going to use for this particular set of photos
Yes, find keyword sets for typical workflows - the ones you will need for family shots, for vacation trips, for specific projects you are working on.
That seems to make sense, however what happens if I have forgotten to add an already existing keyword to my button sets and add it later (using the textfield above the button set selector), will that duplicate the keyword (ie adding it again to the toplevel), or will it select the keyword from deep down in the already existing hierarchy (the preferred approach!)?
if you add an already existing keyword in the searchfield, the search will show all already defined versions of this keyword. You may have used it more than once - for example "Flower"
There are predefined keywords that may be using the same term. Click the one you want to use.
Then the existing keyword will be used.
You can add new keywords to the button set any time from the "Edit" panel:

Hierarchical keywords

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