InDesign pdf Include profile?

Please, I hope you can help.
If we assume my InDesign document is Fogra39.
If we assume my images are Fogra39.
& all of my colours are CMYK.
When outputting a high res pdf for print if I have 'Convert to Destination' selected, what difference does it make whether I 'Don’t Include Profiles' or 'Include Destination Profile' as I am already converting all contents to my selected profile destination.
When I test this I get a colour shift dependant on whether I 'Include' or 'Don't Include' (we have a Fogra39 set up proofer). Which colour is accurate?
Many thanks,
Steve.

1. I would recommend not to use cmyk images but rgb images.
2. Convert to destine would convert all image, also rgb and other cmyk spaces to the selected cmyk space, preserve numbers would only convert rgb images.
3. If no profile is included the pdf shows up with the settings in Acrobat or Reader which might be different to Fogra 39. You cannot expect that everyone opening this pdf has the same color settings as you have (and you cannot expect it neither from yourself)

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Including CMYK profile in InDesign PDF Export

Hi,
I'm trying to export from InDesign a pdf file, which includes embedded profiles both in RGB and CMYK images. There are two linked images in my INDD layout, one embedded with RGB profile and another with CMYK profile.
In Output I have the settings NO COLOR CONVERSION.
When in PROFILE INCLUSION POLICY I try to include profiles to images, I only can have the CMYK profile with the setting INCLUDE ALL PROFILES. But with that setting also native CMYK elements like text will be tagged with a profile, and that I do not want to have.
With the RGB image the profile is included.
Question # 1: Why do not CMYK profiles will be included with the settings: INCLUDE TAGGED SOURCE PROFILES and INCLUDE ALL RGB AND TAGGED CMYK SOURCE PROFILES??? According to the help they should do that.
Question #2: Is the item CREATE TAGGED PDF in the GENERAL tab related to this somehow?
Best Regards
Erkki H

If you choose Include All RGB and Tagged Source CMYK Profiles any placed CMYK objects that have profiles that match the document's CMYK profile are considered Device CMYK, and no conversion is necessary at output. So in this PDF I have the same image profiled with the document's GRACol CMYK profile (top) and US Newsprint (bottom). Acrobat's Output Preview tells me that the top image is Device CMYK (it matches the PDF/X Output Intent) and the bottom image has the US Newsprint profile:
The bottom image sampled
But with that setting also native CMYK elements like text will be tagged with a profile, and that I do not want to have.
If you don't use the PDF/X-4 standard and change the output to Include All Profiles then all color including native ID colors gets profiled. In that case my top image would have the GRACol profile and as you noted any native colors would also be profiled.
I'm not following why placed image color should be profiled, but a native ID color shouldn't?

Proper Color Management from Indesign- PDF- Printer

I can't get my head around this problem and it's been bugging me for a very long time. Maybe you can enlighten me on this?
Right, I know (heard), that when sending a PDF document into Offset Printer, it shouldn't have embeded ICC profiles (for whatever reasons). Here comes my problem: my Indesign is set to AdobeRGB for RGB and ISO Coated v2 (ECI) for CMYK images. When I create a new document and place in three same TIFF files, but each one with a different ICC profile (AdobeRGB/sRGB/ISO Coated V2) and then export this document into PDF (Acrobat 4 PDF 1.3, no color conversion and no profile embedding (in Output tab)), only the image with AdobeRGB looks exactly like I saw it in Indesign. The image in sRGB is more saturated and the CMYK image is different as well). This is also visible after printing out this document on Xerox 700.
Now, if I export the same document into PDF and choose to embed the ICC profiles, all three images look pretty much like they do in Indesign (and even as each other, except the CMYK one being a little bit off).
I looked into color settings in my Acrobat and found a strange thing. The working color profile for RGB space is AdobeRGB (which is correct), but for CMYK it is "Monitor RGB - sRGB IEC.....) - and when I try to change this to ISO Coated V2, hit OK, close Acrobat and open the PDF file again, it is set back to "Monitor RGB - sRGB IEC...." for CMYK color space.
So now I am confused, why images in PDF file that has no embeded ICC profiles look different from what I see in Indesign - is it normal? Or is my Color settings wrong? What would be the proper settings then?
And my other question: When I place a grayscale image into Indesign, it looks a lot darker than it looked in Photoshop. But when I enable the Overprint preview, they look OK. Now my concern is, what is correct? I don't want the images to come out so dark from print, but I can't really brighten them up any more in Photoshop, because there they look all right.

I try to stay optimistic about Adobe color management, but it really is broken. This thread is just another example of the problem.
Monitor profiles aside, the issue is the destination CMYK matching the print condition. Here we need a conversion to ISO Coated v2 (ECI).
Or do we? If the original PDF is all CMYK, Adobe's default answer is "No Conversion Necessary". You could have US Web Coated SWOP v2 going in, it doesn't matter. If this gets placed in the new InDesign, then re-output PDF/X with ISO Coated v2 Output Intent, you essentially have a false output intent in the new PDF that does not correlate with the original file.
Then, when you soft proof the original and the new on-screen, there is an appearance shift. But don't worry, it's OK, the numbers are the same. Which begs the question – if the numbers are OK, which appearance is correct?
So let's switch gears. Start all over, and this time try to maintain color appearance. That means the US Web Coated SWOP numbers will change in the conversion to ISO Coated. Incoming is PDF/X-1a, with US Web Output Intent. This is placed in InDesign and imposed. Now re-output to PDF again, this time "Convert to Destination", NOT preserving numbers.
Open up the PDF. We still have the blasted appearance shift! InDesign doesn't recognize the Output Intent in the original. All of the CMYK color in the original is Device, so InDesign leaves all the number values alone.
Back to the original PDF, in Acrobat. Since InDesign can't do the conversion, it has to be done here. Is it easy? Depends on your definition of easy. True, the PDF has the Output Intent. The problem is PDF/X-1a is not a format that is meant to be refried. If the Acrobat working space is ISO Coated, it will treat the entire PDF as source CMYK ISO coated, because – don't forget – it's Device color. Device = Uncalibrated. Convert to ISO, no CMYK values will change.
That means you have to change Acrobat CMYK working space to US Web. Now convert to the new Output Intent – ISO Coated. Don't forget to enable Preserve Black. Finally! A conversion. Let's just hope any JPEGs in the PDF survive getting refried.
The PDF can now be placed and imposed in InDesign. Just remember to reset your Acrobat Color Settings now that you've fixed the broken PDF.
Confused yet? It gets a lot better than that. What if whoever produced the original PDF didn't bother with PDF/X, or including profiles. Then you have mystery meat.
Mystery = broken. You can't go anywhere because you don't know where to start. Sure, the Acrobat CMYK working is the assumed color space of CMYK content in the PDF. But is that really the correct CMYK?
Probably not.

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Yes, I've callibrated my monitor
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Yes, I've tried the changing transparency blend space... makes no difference.
In my case I have an RGB TIFF placed which has dark midnight blue to light blue tones. When I do an export and it doesn't matter what PDF settings I use the color shifts making it more purplish bllue and the lighter blue tones go away.
BUT, when I export a JPEG, the JPEG looks PERFECT, just like it should and matches the document view.
So I figured the problem must've been solved with the new Acrobat XI... I download the trial and installed it. I created a new PDF and it comes up looking like it should. GREAT, except for the price to update to Acrobat Pro XI!
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Well any local application change to the color settings is going to show up out of sync
All syncing does is match the application's Working CMYK and RGB settings, but the only case where a Working profile color manages a document is when the doc has no profile assignment. So if I sync to North American General my Working CMYK space is US SWOP, but if I open a document with US Sheetfed assigned, US Sheetfed manages the preview not US SWOP.
I'm not saying you aren't experiencing a bug, but you have to be sure of what profile assignments or simulation profiles are driving the preview and syncing doesn't do that. How you export (are you including profiles?, making a conversion?), and what device you are simulating in both programs can make syncing meaningless for existing document's previews.
I can't test X but with XI if you export a PDF/X-4 (where there's no conversion and all profiles are included), the preview with Output Preview closed shows RGB objects unchanged—same as ID with Overprint/Sep Preview Off.
When I open Output Preview the initial Simulation profile is the PDF/X-4 output intent which is the ID doc's assigned profile, in that case RGB objects preview in the output intent's CMYK space—same as ID with Overprint on.

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Evening Forum
am i wrong in thinking i can use an indesign pdf on a web page like i do a normal pdf or jpg?
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Hello,
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Thank you, and especially thanks for the link. I will try to ask there
also...
2010/7/4 <[email protected]>
Well, it got way better with CS4. If you search the forum for (I think) PDF
XObjects, you might come across a discussion where Dov Isaacs explained some
of CS4's behavior.
>
(NM, I found it:
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/580904?decorator=print&displayFullThread=true
>
It's all done internally, nothing the user can do to influence it.
>

InDesign pdf Include profile?

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