InDesign vs Illustrator - Color conversion - Farbumwandlung

English version further down...
Situation:
1. InDesign verwendet standardmäßig die Pantone-bzw. HKS Umrechnungstabelle zu CMYK
2. Illustrator verwendet die Umrechnung über Lab-Farben
3. Die Werte unterscheiden sich drastisch, wenn CMYK als Endprodukt steht
4. Man kann InDesign umstellen, sodass auch InDesign über Lab-Werte geht - die Farbumrechnung ist dann in beiden Programmen identisch
5. Ich habe einen HKS Vollton-Farbfächer sowie einen HKS CMYK-Fächer (basierend auf der CMYK-Tabelle) meiner Druckerei. Gleich benannte Farben beider Fächer sind völlig anders (Bsp Rot siehe unten).
Anmerkung:
- Alle beteiligten Geräte sind farbkalibriert.
- solides Grundwissen zu Farben habe ich, jedoch weniger zu Farbumrechnung, speziell wenn es von Volltonfarben in gerasterten CMYK-Druck geht.
- aktuelle Versionen bei mir: CC
Probleme/Fragen:
A. Die Unterschiede beider Varianten im Druckergebnis sind drastisch. zB. HKS 16 K aus InDesign direkt zu CMYK (per CMYK-Tabelle) ist eine Rot, das stark ins Orange geht CMYK (30,100,90,0), während über Lab-Werte es ein eher kräftiges Rot ist, das schon einen leichten Blaustich aufweist ca. - gerundet - CMYK (10,93,65,33). Die Unterschiede im Druck sind sehr deutlich.Wie kommt es, dass es so stark unterschiedliche Werte sind?
B. Welche Variante kommt dem Ergebnis am nächsten und vor allem warum? Mein Eindruck: Das Druckergebnis per Lab-Farben kommt dem Volltonfarbfächer am nächsten. Die Ergebnisse per Pantone-Definition erscheinen geradezu "abwegig".
C. Was verwende ich ab sofort für zufriedene Kunden?
(D. Neugier: Angenommen der Weg über Lab-Werte ist die beste Lösung,... Warum ist der default in InDesign immer noch die jeweilige CMYK-Tabelle???)
Die eine Technote von Adobe dazu habe ich gelesen. Weiterführende Infos oder Links hierzu wären klasse.
Danke vorab.
situation:
1. InDesign uses by default Pantone- resp.HKS tables to convert to CMYK
2. Illustrator converts by means of lab-colors
3. Diferences between 1.and 2. are drastic when used to convert to CMYK
4. One can configure to use lab-colors in InDesign. As a result CMYK-Colors are idnetical in Illustrator and InDesign
5. I got a printed HKS spot color palette as well as a CMYK color palette based on standard-tables.Colors with the same name look totally different in both printed palettes (see red further down).
remark:
- all devices are color calibrated
- I got IMHO a solidknowledge on colors,but not aboutcolor conversions esspecially from spot colors to rastered CMYK colors.
- using CC version
problems/issues:
A. Differences in print are totally different e.g. HKS 16 K from InDesign directly to CMYK (by CMYK-table) is a red, drifting strongly towards orange CMYK (30,100,90,0), while by means of the lab-values the same red (HKS16) is strong with a touch to blue app. - rounded - CMYK (10,93,65,33). Differences in print are drastic. How comes the results differ so drastically?
B. Which variant is closer to the intended result? My opinion: using lab color conversion is actually really close to the spot colors. Results by standard table to CMYK look almost "idiotic".
C. What should I use for satisfied customers?
(D. Out of curiosity: Suggested the variant bymeans of lab-colors is best... Why is the conversion by CMYK-tables the default in InDesign???)
Already read a technote from Adobe about it. Asnwers, additional infos and links would be grand.
TIA!!

Prior to CS6 the Pantone Solid libraries had dual Lab/CMYK definitions. If you had Use Standard Lab Values for Spots checked in Ink Manager a Pantone Solid would be defined as Lab and the color conversion to CMYK would be color managed—the values you get depend on your document's CMYK profile assignment. If you had it unchecked the defintion was predefined CMYK (for one set of printing conditions) and the output values were unchanged by your color management settings.
CS6+ took away the dual definition for Pantone and solid colors are always defined as Lab and CMYK conversions are always color managed. If you don't want a color managed conversion use Pantone + Color Bridge—those libraries are defined as process CMYK (not spot).
The HKS libraries still have dual definitions, so if you don't want them to be color managed uncheck Use Standard Lab Values.
while by means of the lab-values the same red (HKS16) is strong with a touch to blue app. - rounded - CMYK (10,93,65,33). Differences in print are drastic. How comes the results differ so drastically?
The conversion depends on your document's assigned profile. Looks like you are using ISO Coated ECI, but if you change the profile assignment you'll get different numbers. US SWOP returns 24|100|83|19. I think Lab conversions are better assuming the press is printing close to the assigned profile.

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Previous Post Re: InDesign CS3 Color Issues:
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PS - I've attached a screen shot of the setting in PS for reference.

You are correct, from a color management standpoint Option 2 is much better. As long as you have the proper CMYK ICC you theoretically get the best match (which still oftentimes falls very short, i.e. Pantone 293)
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for the color conversion of our images and pdfs we use Photoshop and Idesign (What I´m talking about here is to put an input profile, a rendering intent, and a output profile).
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I must say that we are very happy with the results.
What we are looking for right now is trying to automate that process.
We have been using a rip called Colorgate Productionserver 7. This rip have hot folder workflow (wich is what we want) BUT the color conversion is not the same as the one that Photoshop and Indesign have (using the same input profile, rendering intents and output profile).
We have been doing much testing with rgb images and we don´t like how this rip converts the images to the output profile.
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I don´t know if Adobe has a similar product or if it has licensed it´s color management to anyone.
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Hello Palo,
Colorgate has announced, that Productionserver 8 'utilizes the latest Adobe PDF Print
Engine (APPE) by default':
http://www.colorgate.com/en/rip-software/rip-software/productionserver-8.html?aktPos=20
May be you'll get then the desired 100% compatibility...
I am using version 6. I could stabilize my processes by simplifying the workflows for PDFs.:
Just one color space for RGB images, just one color space for CMYK components,
explicit assignment of the two profiles, explicit assignment of the two rendering intents.
No use of embedded profiles and hopefully no use of InDesign's general color settings,
which may be in contradiction to the settings in Productionserver. My InDesign PDFs
are generally made for Leave Colors Unchanged.
I had discussed some issues with Colorgate: printing of Lab components and printing
of images by K-only (black and gray inks). The company is cooperative, but it's obviously
impossible to clarify the extremely complex workflows just by post and e-mail.
My experiences, which are as well based on two other RIPs (years ago), are laid down
here, a preliminary version finished just now:
http://docs-hoffmann.de/cmsflow03072013.pdf
Please contact me eventually by private e-mail (last page of doc).
Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

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