Is the point system broken?

I have always been slightly amused by the point system and the little crosses since I came back to the forums after a few years away.
I imagine that knowing that someone has answered a lot of questions that have been marked as Correct or Helpful could be a handy indicator to someone new to the forums. Like Bill Hunt for example. It isn't the points as much as the percentage of points as a ratio to the number of posts. It indicates that people have often marked his answers as useful.
Well, the other day I noticed that I had reached 996 points and I was about to get a third marker. Try as I might to be nonchalant about it, since the points are not all that important, it still kind of threw me off when I got stalled at 996. I have had two correct answers lately and yet my points no longer increment.
So, is the system broken? Are my points being held up for review for some reason? Or, is there some other reason? I guess I am just curious about it. I keep telling myself it doesn't matter. Yet, what can I say? Pride is just one of those vices that is hard to shake. Throw a little vanity in there and ....

It is like riding a roller coaster. Wheeeeee! Back up to 1101 points!!!!
I can only imagine how this would feel if I was one of those people who are really mad at Adobe right now over the subscription issue instead of being pleased as punch about being let back into the game so inexpensively. Yikes! This would be like rubbing salt in the wound instead of being funny.

Similar Messages

Gripe about the points system...

To whom it may concern,
I have a gripe about the points system used on the forums.Let me start by saying I like the general premise the points system offers but... I have noticed that I certain cases I will receive SEVERAL equally good, helpful, and valid replies to a post. My gripe is that when it comes time to award points I see a problem. In the above scenario AT LEAST one posts MUST get solved points while the others only get helpful points. I don't like this as oft times I believe EVERY answer deserves equal points. I would like to see the system at least allow for all posters to receive helpful points. I feel that in some cases this would keep things fair. Thank you.
Chris
G4 466 Digital Audio 1.5 gB RAM 30 GB HD Mac OS X (10.4.6) Pioneer DVR-111DBK

Thanks for the chance to vent!
Cheers,
Chris

Is the points system too restrictive?

When I first joined these forums, the points system was quite different, so that the transition from level three to four took a long time, but was possible. Since then giving and receiving points has tightened up so much that I now think that it is all but impossible to get from level two to level three in a reasonable time.
I would like to know how many people have made the level three to four transition since the current point regime started? and of those, how many were already close to the transition at the changeover?
Is the current scheme too restrictive? Was it cynically designed to be restrictive to reduce the number of people getting to level four?
Bob

Majordadusma leveled on 6/20/06.
Okay. There may still be some overlap between this list and yours.
*Carried up to L4 by the points conversion at the time of the transistion*
b noir (from L2)
Buegie (from L3)
StarDeb55 (from L3)
*L4 level achieved some time after the transition*
Alan Somers
AxL
Bryan Mick
David S.
Dick Napoli
F Shippey
Francine Schwieder
Michael Lafferty
Otto42
QuickTimeKirk
The hatter
Anyone there you've already got, Ronda?

[locked] Another reason the points system is all JIVED UP!!!

Not only do the nubes asking the questions not really know if an answer is correct or not. But many people don't bother to list the question as answered or if they do they just mark the question as answered without handing out points. This point system is not well thought out.

Buko...
That's the whole point isn't it? The points system has no bearing on reality. Points i gained in Dreamweaver have no validity in say After Effects... yet the poor poster in AE will think i'm an AE expert too. And then, as you point out, the whole awarding of points is all belly up. It's really a joke!
Which is why i don't understand why guys freak when we joke about it... the moment you see 'points' in the topic, don't, as Ansury said, read the thread! There's nothing serious that can be said about this and the 'correct answer' crap except remove them both. Except, of course, for those who love to see the points under their name, the little red blobs increasing and the smug feel of seeing that mdeallion thingy next to their name.

Clarification on the Points System

Hey all,
I was away for two weeks on vacation recently and was pleasantly surprised to find the point and level system functional again. I have questions however as to how the points are accumulated between the various forums. Typically I post in the 15" PowerBook forums as this is what I have. From time to time I will post in other areas of the forum. I see that I am listed among the 'Top Rated Members in Forum' for the PowerBook but my points only seem to increase as I am awarded them there. I have two 'helpfulls' and one 'solved' in the Tiger forums which do not seem to have been added to my total. Am I mistaken in this observation or will those points be added later? Also, if someone replies to me and the topic is marked 'solved' but I didn't get a green star then I take it no points were awarded for that?
Jrsy

Hey Jrsy --
Welcome back! Hope you had a great vacation. We missed you in the PB 15 forum (and elsewhere, of course, too).
I'm pretty sure your points accrue regardless of where you earn them. In fact, I know that's true. it's just that in each forum or category of forums, there are running subtotals of who has earned the most mosts in that particularl category, and those only count points earned in that fora.
But if you were to look at your "Public Profile" you'd notice that all your points from all fora and category of fora are reflected.
To put the above in play, your points earned in the Using Tiger forum would not rank you high enough to be included in the forum's highest point earners in that forum (Dr. Smoke and others make that an impossibility), but you would notice that they did add to your over all point total, as that takes into account all forums throughout the Discussions.
In the Using Your PB 15-inch forum, on the other hand, where your point total in that particular forum ranks you among the top point earners in that forum, well, those points you'd notice right away, because you're that forum's top earners.
Like Mark Twain famously once said, I'd have made this response shorter (and no doubt clearer, too), but I didn't have the time. Any further questions, just holler.
-- JDee
PS And like Tuttle already noted, I forgot the first time 'round, the thread that's marked "answered" and receives a little green star, but with no points awarded to any responsive post, that's just the new Discussions' system way of allowing the OP to say "question solved, either on my own or with no consideration of those that helped me."

[locked] A Different Perspective On The Point System

I was reading Joel on Software today and he was talking about "Stack Overflow" which is a very successful Q&A forum for programmers by programmers. Joel makes the point that the Stack Overflow board (which is similar to these forums in that it's a technical support forum) uses a point system. Joel goes on to write;
"It’s not much of a secret, but Stack Overflow is already a great place to find good programmers, because you can see how good people really are by reading the answers that they post. I’ve noticed a lot of people putting their Stack Overflow reputations on their resumes, and we’re starting to hear stories of people who got jobs through the site. Jeff and I are committed to building features to make this easier in the next “six to eight” weeks. For example, I’ve always hated traditional resumes, which just don’t give the right kind of information about a candidate. If you wanted to hire an iPhone developer, would you rather know that person’s Stack Overflow stats in the iPhone tag and read their answers to technical questions? Or would you rather know where they went to college?
If we pull this off, getting jobs in the tech industry will be a lot saner."
I'm not sure at this point where I sit in this debate; but I thought you all might be interested in a reasoned opinion on the pro side.

If those pros that you're referring to don't care about the points then how exactly are they destroying the forum?
many of them are insulted by them and have left. the format of the forums have changed becasue the new system discourages long teaching discourses with lots of back and forth an examples coming from the teachers and the students. this format encourages quick, dirty answers (as pj says, paraphrasing: who needs a discourse when ESC ESC UP UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT START works, and others add: even if that trashes your image!).
and on the other hand there are those in charge of the Community Help
who say that they have solid data indicating that points have helped
increase the overall value of the comments posted there
no offense to any but i don't believe that for a second. change that to maybe those who have some vested interest in the new forums or are in some way beholden to adobve mgmt are pushing the corporate line, then yes, you've got a point.
and who the $@** are "community help"? i haven't seen ANY "community help" in the last 7ish years except that provided by myself and other dedicated users to the adobe user "community".
Gee, i wonder who i'll believe....
hmm, maybe the guy who cares enough about adobe and it's products to spend the last 7 years donating his time helping people use adobe's programs? Gee, f*&k off with your snide "Gees" bish. thanks.
You're freaking incredible Dave.
um, sorry steve, you did notice that i was responding to pj who said he doesn't care, right?
If
the intent was to change the flavor of the forums, they are being very
successful! A lot of the old friendly banter is gone, and answers are
given to try to satisfy the OPs question and no more. I feel it's a big
shame.
exactly... that's all i was saying.and i feel that if that's the intent, adobe should come out and SAY so. then those of us who care about the programs and helping people make best use of them can move on and those who care about racking up meatballs can provide the free tech support for a change.
I am personally not against a point system per se, but I am opposed to the way it is implemented. If ALL
users could give points (or kudos, or what-have-you) for a useful
answer (and not just the OP), with no limit to just three per thread,
people would be encouraged to give more complete and universally useful
answers. I believe that such an implementation would promote the joint
learning atmosphere instead of stunting it...
again, yes. and this was brought up in this specific forum when we were asked for feedback.
the focus of the forums hasn't shifted, all that happened was that they added points, don't blow this out of proportion.
you're wrong zeno! not only are you wrong, but you're speaking as if you're some sort of authority on it and if you have any pull with adobe (and it seems you do) then you're providing them with your wrong, skewed view of how things were vs. how they are.
how the heck would you know? where did you come from? how did you get authority? WHERE THE H&LL WERE YOU FOR THE LAST DECADE that you can compare the way the old forum works with the vapid eye candy we're being forced to use now? you sure as heck weren't providing adobe photoshop windows support...
GEE, "A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. he is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it. We are not doing him a favor by serving him. He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so."

Is the "point system" here helpful at all?

Could this dumb Jive point system possibly be responsible for being asked to create a new thread (before you're actually assisted), or are points just post-based? (instead of continuing an older, perfectly relevant thread that was "answered"--the solution offered in the answer didn't work for the same problem presented)
Why does "marking a thread as a question encourage people to answer"....oh....it says for points right above..... Yeah is that helpful? Do we really want to get people into this "point competition" mindset? Bring back WebX! Jive Clearspace sucks!
The whole point system is a little pointless, can't it be disabled? It doesn't really belong on a professional company's tech forum.
(I marked this post as as a question! Who wants free points?! haha)

PjonesCET wrote:
Isn't the most helpful answer to person asking the question, the one that fixes the problem for the person asking the question.
Although there may be a 10 page, book correct, proper answer. The one most helpful is the one that corrects the problem for the user asking the question.
Some times an answer doesn't have to be 20 pages long and require 100 step
"Hold the Shift, Ctrl and Alt keys pressed for exactly seven seconds, then repeat 'Amen' for three times, then press the same keys, but this time for only five seconds. This has worked for me". Here is a much less than 20 pages long answer that doesn't require 100 steps, and that may happen to work for whatever reason for the person asking a question. Does this make it a correct answer to the question? What if, after the question is marked as "correctly answered" by the OP, no knowleadgeable person visits the thread, but many others with the same problem do and find the "solution" doesn't work for them? Would this be helpful/useful/satisfying for them?

Silly idea...but why not remove the points system?

Hi,
I just re-activated my interest in the SAP SDN community and have noticed a lot of discussions around points, Jacobs deals, negative points, quality of content, moderators, etc. Basically a whole lot of discussion, energy and effort towards something that should be a byproduct of an active community, not the core of it.
How about just removing the whole points system?
I can understand why it was initially in place to quickly build up a community, but I assume that you have reached the critical mass and I think you might actually be losing some of the good part of the mass because of this points system (because it might impact the overall quality).
I have been a member of Sun's Java community since 97 and though they have always had "duke dollars" it has never been a motivating factor to participate there and I don't think a lot of emphasis is put on them either. The community became very fast self controlling with people put in place for not being clear with their questions, etc. and I have always thought that it has been quite a good, simple community which has benefited everyone quite a bit. This is not to say that I don't appreciate SAP SDN, but it is just a sample of a community which works without requiring direct "rewards".
Having a link to your business card for answering questions as well as getting a profile with articles, whitepapers, etc. is in my opinion plenty of recognition and for those who you (as the forum owners & moderators) see as being truly exceptional you have the Mentor / Expert (sorry, can't remember what you called them but a sort of fellowship) model and the less people you have in that group the more they will be valued and the more people are interested in truly good quality content instead of quantity.
The only post I found related to this topic with a quick search was Reg Award Points but there might be more around as well. My apologies if this is a topic which has been discussed enough already (please link this to such discussions if relevant, though won't reward any points ).
So how about it. Any chance of dropping the points and trust that the community will survive without them? I think it would do just fine.
Cheers
Kalle
Edited by: Kalle Pokkinen on Feb 26, 2008 1:40 AM

"have the changes improved the quality of the postings?". I would leave that judgment for the community to answer and perhaps it is still too soon to tell as the changes have only recently been implemented. In most change management activities, it takes time to affect behavioral change.
But as for the World Food Program initiative, you raise a very important point about continuing to spread the word concerning the food for points idea. I would recommend taking a look at this website called [SAP Feeding Knowledge|http://www.sapfeedingknowledge.com/] and would be bold enough (or perhaps impassioned enough) to recommend that if this idea speaks to you, if you think it important enough to repeat to others, you take the initiative and further spread the word. That can be done by reminding folks in the forums (perhaps even where such contentious point discussions or debates around quality occur) or it could be that you choose to blog about it either here on SDN/BPX or in a personal blog space. I'm your willing assistant in that activity!
Viral knowledge-spreading about this, increases the likelihood of the program's success. And forgive me if I sound like I am evangelizing the cause, but that is exactly what I am dedicated and determined to do. Having recently visited in countries where this program is designed to help people, I can vouch for its importance as an eye witness to its success and would think it worth everyone's time to at least read about how a simple act of participation here can help alleviate suffering and make a difference in the world. Please pass it on.

Before you ask, YES the point system is fine and those numbers are correct!

As with the first quarter of the year we have also done so with the second quarter of the year and we have given small amounts of points for the massive amounts of efforts that are going into the wiki here.
We've over 11,000 pages in total now and an average of 20,000 edits per quarter. The wiki is already started to take over most of the blog areas in terms of views so tons of activity in there and we are just trying to do the right thing and rewarded those for spending the time making it a great resource.

>
Craig Cmehil wrote:
> Correction: the system is unfair and stupid!
Correction: the Name is unfair and stupid too!
Pls change your name either or come with opinion voice.

I am not clear on the points system in the Forums. Will I get points for simply posting questions or replying to questions?

No. Points are not given for simply posting a question or a reply. Points are awarded by the person who started a discussion. They can mark a reply to their question as either The Answer or as Helpful. They can mark one “Correct” answer and two “Helpful” answers per discussion thread.

@ adobe-admin (J.C.?):
Thanks for fixing the "backslash" error. Accuracy is important, and doubly so when presented as an F.A.Q.
The sad thing is how prevalent the usage of "backslash" is when a plain old slash is meant (generally, the "forward" attribute is assumed and unneeded), and by people who should know better. It's a direct result of people knowing just barely enough about the Windows file path naming protocols, and then applying the only terminology they're familiar with incorrectly to URLs.
I went about 10 rounds—TWICE!—with a labyrinthian succession of people at the Discovery & History cable TV networks because they were saying "backslash" in voice overs whenever their commercials promoted their websites. It took some doing, but I finally got in touch with somebody who was savvy enough to recognize that it was a rookie mistake made by a clueless marketing copywriter. The voice over person just read the copy they were given, oblivious to the difference. It amazes me that it wasn't caught by somebody early in the recording/production process and rectified.
They then had it correct for about a year, until new commercials started popping up with the same error. Unfortunately, the person I had talked to previously no longer worked for the History channel and I had to go through the process of finding someone who understood all over again.
Yeah, you can call me a nitpicker with nothing better to do.
But I've earned that dang badge, and I wear it proudly!

Tell me again why the point system has any value?

Query builder - OR condition

Billy Verreynne wrote:
Dude wrote:
Many participants seem to care only about receiving answers by spreading and urging their question as much as possible without providing any value to the community. These people typically do not even care to give feedback and thereby disrespect anyone who tries to help them in the end. A rather twisted view IMO. Just because someone does not offer you points, or does not provide the type of feedback you would like to your suggestion, does not mean "disrespect". Come on!
It seems to me that there is this politically correct view that technical forums dealing with technical problems and technical solutions, should be all facebook community like, where we are all friends, slapping one another on the back, telling one another how good and awesome they are. +<shudder>+
If you want warm fuzzies and political correctness and slaps on the back, I suggest joining Facebook to "connect and share with the people in your life".Perhaps that is what you have been reading between the lines, but that is not what I wrote. To respond and to acknowledge help is a matter of good manners and courtesy in any social environment. Forum participants who do not give feedback and leave their posts orphaned are disrespectful. That's is my opinion.
About your last statement… I'm not a fan of Facebook and have my account deactivated. I prefer not to drag my life or that of my friends to the public screen. I do not trust Facebook or any other business or government to take care of personal data in everyones best interest. However, the warm fuzzies and political correctness and slaps on the back as you describe seems to happen everywhere, even here.
Edited by: Dude on Mar 18, 2013 5:59 PM

Blatant abuse of the points system

Over at the iWeb forum we've just experienced a slew of follow-on posts to dead topics, all from one contributor who had previously posted to them. Each of his follow-ons asks outright for his posts to be marked as Helpful or Answered.
Can anything be done to prevent abuse of this nature?

Kady...
I'm assuming by your post that you can solve this issue and that you may be a moderator of some sort for the apple discussion boards.
If at all possible, give all of my points to Jim McCormiac as I have offered in email to him personally and here on this site. If this will get him to let it go it's fine by me.
My issue, whether I handled it right or not, was to clear up "unsolved" questions. Questions that had been answered, and that the people said I had helped on, but they hadn't marked as answered.
If giving Jim M. my points will help him sleep at night, all the better.
Here's the body of the text of the email I sent to him to try and solve this privately before he decided to go public on this forum.
"If questions get left unanswered, when they actually are answered, then they are being read by others. We both look over the site for unanswered questions for people to see if we can help them. If a questions remains then it gets harder and harder to find the new ones that have dropped off the first page.
I personally have found this to be true when trying to find answers to getting my itunes artwork problem solved. There were no answers than the obvious ones, and after it drops off the first page it doesn't get hits or help. Then you have people loading up the site with the same question again and again. That's not helpful is it?
I'm not really sure what your issue is with my posting asking people to close unanswered questions Jim. Again, if it bothers you to read my posts, then I encourage you to not read them. If it bothers you about "begging for points" then figure out a way for you to take all of my points and you are welcome to them. Honestly, it don't matter to me.
My issue is unanswered questions, or questions that are left as unanswered when they are answered. Makes the whole process slower in my opinion."

The Point system

Just curious, how do I accumulate points? I see some of you out there with 10,000 and more. And where do you get the cool little profile pictures? I have a limited few to choose from.

You accumulate points by providing help to others. If you are helpful and the person posting chooses he/she may give you Helpful award. If you solve their problem they can chose to give you a Correct Answer reward. Over time the more people you assist successfully the more points you will accumulate.

Is the rating system really necessary?

I know... I know... I'm probably getting on a touchy subject here.
I understand the desire for a sort of incentive for people to answer questions but it is my observation that use of points is hardly consistent. For the most part, it seems like questions from established users tend to get helpful and solved answers most of the time. Great. The point system works in that instance.
I have also noticed that I will see someone come on the boards, post a question, get their answer and never post again. They either don't know about the rating system or they do not stay long enough to use it.
Does that mean I need to look at the O.P.'s post count before I post an answer? I think that's shallow. If someone has question and I think I know a solution, then I will post a solution.
But what is the solution? Do away with the rating system? I think some upper-level members would have a justifiable objection to that. Change it to a raw post count? I suspect we would see an even higher number of posts deleted because of people trying to pad their numbers.
What if members received 1 point for marking an answer as helpful and 2 points for marking an answer as solved?
Its a thought.

No, the rating (reputation) system isn't really necessary, but it does serve as an incentive for many people to increase their participation, and increased participation lends itself to the perception of increased value in this Apple-provided service, if not to the usefulness of the bulk of the posts that are left here.
Ultimately, there are a lot of things that go into the decision to attach a reputation system of one kind or another to Discussions, and there has been one such system or another in place here for many years, so there is no reason to believe that the concept will ever be abandoned.
As to the idea that upper-level members would object to its loss, yes, some would. Maybe many. On the other hand, there are quite a few of us who see through this charade and do what we can do undermine its importance relative to the real mission of Apple's Discussions. In the end, I'd like to think that our cynicism helps to balance out the "shallowness" of post-count building and points-grubbing strategies that seem to obsess many of our peers.
What if members received 1 point for marking an answer as helpful and 2 points for marking an answer as solved?
I've suggested this myself in the past, but one of the roadblocks to its implementation is that the current software is only able to mete out points in increments of 5. Oh well....
Good luck!

Points System Design Flaws

I'm not here for points, and was here before the points system was enacted, and would certainly still be here if it were gone tomorrow, but what's the point of having them if they're hardly used?
It is very difficult to achieve even 10 points a day in my opinion, (which is reasonable for forum members to level up in a fair amount of time). I usually come to these forums every day, mostly to post, sometimes merely to read. However, on average days when I completely answer or help users with problems, there will be no response from such users, and especially not a thread marked as "solved" or a post marked as "helpful". This is typical from the majority of those helped here, which are one time forum users. It's pretty difficult to fix this problem, but there are other things that could be done to aid this.
Since the new system has been started, I can count the number of green stars next to one of my posts on one hand, literally. I usually make more than just a few posts a day as well. Look, I'm not trying to be stingy or greedy about points, but there's obviously a flaw regarding user interaction with the point system.
This could simply be solved by simple logic. An OP who asks a question should HAVE to answer the following each time in order to post a reply: "Has this been solved?" and furthermore specifically "By Who?", while giving the user a choice of those in the thread only.
I can't tell you the amount of "solved" threads I've seen where the person who should receive credit for solving the problem is never given points simply because the user isn't using the specific buttons on the post to specify that their question was answered, but on the reply form, which won't allow the user to choose a post from. The result, it's solved, but supposedly by no one.
Again, I'm not all about the points, but It's illogical to have a system that is so seldom used, and at times when it is, usually not accurately.
The key points here are that most people asking questions don't understand the idea of the point system. They needn't understand the idea of a point system as long as interface design is exercised properly.
Brian

715/3161
Hello Brian,
You're right, and this question has been thoroughly raised in every aspect, from the beginning in November 2005, and then some other times once in a while.
Although a nice and fun way to support the general wonderful sense of community, and a nice way to "feel thankful" together too, we all know that gaining points is not our main concern, and that there would be as much participation without, but
you're right again, if we are to use them, then they need to work as intended.
Now where I disagree with you:
"An OP [...] should HAVE to..."
In my opinion an OP should feel at ease, as much as possible, and not, like many constantly advise,
feel yet again the same kind of complication/clumsiness/heaviness feeling (s)he experiences in filling administrative or boring banking forms...
As you rightly said, OPs do not (and should not) know/learn everything about some complicated steps, just when entering a technical forum for the first(s) time(s),
especially as they are at the moment in the state of mind of a newbie who additionally is in a troubleshooting panic...
In my opinion,
the solution should come from us, and the mods, not from the OPs.
And the solution is simple:
- a reintroduction of a level of awarding by peers.
Since we already know how perverted the voting system had become, I'd suggest a very limited possibility of awarding posts when not an OP: like for example only three or five "Helpful" per day.
Software fixes priorities:
- Now that it works better, the Points system is more easily criticizable, but the fix is not anymore so urgent in the list of fixes.
I'm sure it is still there though.
Be patient and enjoy your participation!
Regards,
Axl

Is the point system broken?

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