Lightroom exporting to JPEG without Detail settings

In Lightroom 3.3 (on OS X 10.6.4), when I export a photo with Detail settings (noise reduction, etc) to JPEG, these settings are not in the JPEG.
Am I doin it rong? This is illogical and frustrating.
Library:
Develop with Detail on:
Develop with Detail off:
Exported JPEG:
They all appear to be a bit different, but the jump from Library/Develop with Detail on to JPEG is pretty drastic.

I've been having a similar problem recently in Lightroom. At first I thought it was because I shot an event with fill-flash in daylight and I thought my white balance was messed up because of cross contamination of light. But, since that shoot 2 weeks ago EVERY other shoot (around 1,000 images) have been giving me very weird white balance problems. Essentially, my images seem "greyish" so, I boost temp and tint, I boost vibrance, I try all sorts of tweaking until the image looks passable, but not nearly my typical color and saturation look and feel. The processed images in Lightroom still seem a bit under saturated and just "not right." BUT, when I export them... they're OVER saturated - kinda like the numbers in Lightroom tell me the image should look. So, it seems that the display in Develop mode is under saturated and "off." But, I have no idea how to correctly compensate. I feel like I have some hidden setting set incorrectly - Any thoughts? Ideas greatly appreciated. If a screen grab would help I'll try that.
I'm in Lightroom 2.5 and Camera Raw 5.5
I'm on a PowerPC Mac running OS X 10.4.11
Jay
Message was edited by: jjlevan - I came back to post a screen grab from Lightroom and the JPG which looks like the Lightroom settings you see with the tint and vibrance boosted. But the Lightroom image looks UNDER saturated or almost normal.

Similar Messages

Aperture vs Adobe Lightroom (Beta 3) JPEG exports

I've been beta-testing the Adobe Lightroom product and comparing it to Aperture. I'm using Aperture 1.1.1 on a MacBook Pro.
Lightroom has some intriguing features, but I've noticed a wildly different color when exporting the same image to JPEG format from Lightroom and Aperture.
I took the same RAW image from a shot I took with my Nikon D70 and exported a JPEG from Aperture using default settings with no color adjustment. In Lightroom I exported the same image to Photoshop, and then exported a JPEG with default settings and no color adjustment.
Look at the difference:
https://www.carsonmedia.com/projects/softballphotos/phototests/photocomparison.h tml
Can anyone explain the difference? Aperture seems to export a JPEG that resembles the original.
I'm perplexed at the difference.
--Brandon
15" MBP 2GB RAM OSX/XP Mac OS X (10.4.6)

Yeah, looks like a colorspace issue -- I'm guessing Pro Photo, but it might not be LR's fault. Last I checked, LR actually exports PSDs, not JPEGs, in Pro Photo space to PS. So 2 possibilities:
1. LR incorrectly tagged the PSD output, so PS doesn't realize it's Pro Photo.
2. You didn't do a colorspace coversion in PS before saving the JPEG. Try using 'save to web' in PS -- it usually takes care of the sRGB conversion for you. Does it look correct in PS before the JPEG export?

How do I export 72ppi jpegs from InDesign without losing quality?

I need to export indesign files that I design to 72ppi for web without losing any quality (or as minimal as possible). Countless times I have tried different methods, but alwasy manage to create a workaround, whether it be good quality, or just readable text. ITs really the small text I have the problem with. I explain in the below video my problem in further detail. But basically, I have tried many things such as pasted from indesign to photoshop, exporting to 300ppi jpeg and resizing in photoshop, exporting to 72ppi jpeg and viewing (not good at all), exporting as PDF, opening in photoshop ticking anti alias and inputting my dimensions... how can I get this to work?? Someone please help.. I have battled this problem for to long and my boss is getting annoyed with it. We need to fix this.
Many people say to export to PDF and then open in photoshop and save as a jpeg from there.. but how can i export a PDF to 72ppi?? Please Adobe fix this issue in future editions of InDesign. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help
Here is a link to the video if yu can't view it below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uqsGnhT3gY&feature=youtu.be

bec-white wrote:
Many people say to export to PDF and then open in photoshop and save as a jpeg from there.. but how can i export a PDF to 72ppi??
You have it backwards. You export a PDF, and when you open it in Photoshop, that's when you pick the resolution. Any text in the PDF will likely be vector data, and it will be changed into bitmap data at the resolution you choose. I'll give you an example:
I placed a 300ppi image (5.7MB Photoshop tiff) into an InDesign page with three captions (12pt, 9pt and 6pt). I exported the page as two different PDFs. One was set to High Quality Print (a1) and the other to Smallest File Size (a2). A1 came in at 446KB and a2 came in at 37KB. When opened in Photoshop, I picked 72ppi as the resolution, flattened and saved as an RGB Jpeg without color profile and quality setting of 12.
The a1 jpeg was 180kb in size and a2 was 156kb, so not too far apart, considering the difference in file size between the PDF versions. If you open the jpegs in Photoshop, you will see that the size of the letter F at the beginning of the 12pt caption is nine pixels high in each, so if the problem you are having is that small text isn't readable, maybe the text is just too small to be readable at 72ppi.

How to export raw pictures to jpeg without losing the original colors?

Hello guys,
Actually I'm facing a problem
which is I took photos in Raw Format
but unfortunately when I import it to LR
it lose its colors
and here is a video for my problem
LR's problem - YouTube
And now I want a solution
so I can convert it to jpeg
without losing its original colors.
Thank you all in advance

You ask a variation of the age-old question: “Why did LR ruin my photos?” It’s because the initial view is what your camera does for its JPG preview that is embedded in each raw photo based on your camera’s settings and the LR interpretation that loads after a second or two, is the raw data interpreted with the Adobe defaults.
I would guess that your camera is “fixing” the shots somehow, and LR, not knowing what your camera is doing, is just rendering the shots from the raw data as it exists without fixing anything.
Do you know if the camera was in some special mode that fixes things automatically before creating the JPG?
If you

Converting RAW to JPEG without exporting

Hi all
I mostly shoot in RAW to gain the extra flexibility this offers during post.
Once I have finished editing the RAW images in LR3, I would like to convert them to JPEG to save disk space. Is there an easy way of doing this? I currently export the JPEGs, delete the RAW images, then re-importing the JPEGs into Lightroom.
Many thanks

Hi gib1983,
I can only second what dj_paige advised !
There are opportunities when you scout your images for entirely different purposes: my most sad recent example is a good friend, died suddenly. Among our last meetings was the wedding of mutual friends, for whom I had prepared a photo book. When you deliver such to a happy couple you look for different things than when you try to find the pictures you have of your deceased friend - trying to compile something to help his parents and sisters a tiny bit. Scouting the "raw material" was a real source, especially for different crops using virtual copies.
I find that I rarely use jpgs now, apart from temporarily while creating photo books.
Even printing is convenient out of LR directly from the raws. Or use the print module to "print to jpg", but this time with a template that includes a caption for each image, leveraging what you entered as meta data. In former times I had done prints and hand-written such caption-info on the back - the typical content of the *shoe box archives*...
My friends also appreciate a pdf-format from slideshow to share images with them for viewing on screen - again captions included.
But full-sized jpgs is the rarest use case for me now. I just get them when scanning shoe-box-content for real archiving, but I would never do with them for my own shots.
BTW I convert my proprietary raw-formats (NEF, CR2) to DNG and embed xmp-data and LR previews into them - to be on the safe side for future compatibility.

Possible to convert Raw to JPEG without exporting and importing?

I have about 4,500 raw photos that I need to print on contact sheets (or print contact sheets to a PDF). I took the photos all in Raw format. Aperture, or my computer, is not powerful enough to process all of these photos onto contact sheets from the Print Images menu item; it takes several hours. I suspect I need to convert the files to a low-quality JPEG and print the contact sheets from those, which should be fine because the thumbnails are so small.
Here's the question: I know that I can create JPEGs from these raw files by exporting as JPEG and then reimporting them into Aperture, but this seems overly complicated. Is there a way I can select a number of photos within Aperture, and then select to convert them to JPEG of a particular quality, without leaving the application? Or are the multiple steps - exporting and importing - necessary?
Next time I'm shooting Raw+JPEG to avoid this, by the way...

So my workaround actually worked. I exported the photos as low-quality JPEGs, reimported them into a new project, and processed a Contact Sheet off of those. To process a Contact Sheet with the raw files would have taken Aperture about 12 hours or so. To process a Contact Sheet using the low-quality JPEGs took about 10 minutes. I'm glad this worked, though I wish there were a way in Aperture to create JPEGs from the raw files without leaving the application.

Is there a way to export a slideshow to JPEG without a background?

Hi, I'm using LR4 to do a basic sign with many text overlays on a background image in Slideshow. I would like to export this image as a jpeg and then print it as an 8x10 to put in a frame. However, when I export the slideshow to jpeg or PDF, I'm getting the black background behind the image. I have nothing checked in the "Backdrop" menu on the right hand side. Is there any way to remove this background in slideshow? Is there a way to do this in another module instead? I want more than just a watermark so didn't think Print was the right way to go.
Example of my print preview below with black background.

Looks like you won't need to use the Develop module–Follow the below instructions
1) An 8" x 10" image with 300 ppi resolution = 2400 x 3000 pixel dimensions. Make sure your background image has at least that resolution or higher!
2) Next from inside the LR Slideshow module drag the 'Top' guide all the up so the image fills the frame vertically:
3) Next go to 'Export JPEG Slideshow' and manually enter Width = 2400 & Height= 3000. The exported Slideshow JPEG should be perfectly cropped and sized providing the original background image is 8x10 aspect ratio:
4) You are ready to make your print!
P.S. Please excuse my typo showing 3000 x 24000 it should read 3000 x 2400!

After editing camera raw and export as jpeg,image becomes overexposed when view on light room..please advise.

need some help here. don't know if i can describe this accurately.
i was using lightroom previously. edit my raw file and then export in jpeg. everything appear normal as what i wanted.
recently i got cs4 and started using bridge. now after i edit my photo in lightroom and export,the view of the jpeg file appears overexpose(exposure was increase) and when view on adobe bridge same problem. but if i open photoshop and use my workspace colour setting everything is ok. when i see my picture on iphoto it is normal as per i have edited. i just don't know what setting i have touch that cause my viewing of edited photo on lightroom and bridge goes overexpose. on bridge,thumbnail ok but preview bad...
for the record: i just install CS4 and snow leopard recently. before this i have no problems with LR. I'm also not sure if i have accidentally change any settings.
i shoot with a 5D mark 2 and use the raw file for edit.
will appreciate any advise. Thanks

grjacek wrote:
Is it possibe to return to a RAW image and edit it once I've exported it to another location as jpeg?
Yes
I've edited and exported an image to a different folder on my desktop. I've realised I still need to do some work on it
but when I try and open it again in Lightroom ( I see it in Library) I get a mesaage saying file not found...Please help
We're going to need a lot more details aobut exactly (EXACTLY) the steps you follow after you do the export, because normally I would say this is one of the easiest things possible in Lightroom. Are any files moved or renamed or disks unplugged in between the time of export and the time when you try to edit again?

Using Lightroom as RAW Converter without Importing Images

Hi-
I have a question that I can't find the answer to anywhere. i have images on my desktop that I'd like to convert from RAW to JPEG withOUT having to import them into LR.
What I mean is that I'd like to be able to open a folder, right click on an image, and convert it from RAW to JPEG in the folder. Is this possible? If it matters, I have Windows 7,
Thank you,
Kelly

Kelly, in order for Lightroom to see the raw file you have to import it. It's not a big deal, just a simple step in the process. Also realize that if you remove the imported raw files after development and exporting the jpegs, you will lose all the settings the images had and will have to start from scratch should you want to make adjustments later, unless you save the settings to XMP files.

Picture has noise after export to JPEG

Hey guys,
I am using Lightroom 5.2 64bit version on my windows. After I export my raw in to the jpeg it has noise. But in the develop module it hasn´t. Also it has got a little bit noise in the library, but it´s the same picture. Where is the sense?
Here are some pictures of that problem:
1. The finally edited raw picture which I want to export.
2. The view from the library, you can see a little bit difference on the quality compared to the view from the develop module.
3. The jpeg after the export.
4. My export settings.
I don´t know what to do! I´ve googled a lot but nothing found.
Please help me and post any ideas.
Lovely regards
iAmAzInG

I have the same problem (OS X). Exporting to jpeg results in poor quality. This is a problem I didn't had with previous versions.
I took a look at the other threads which are mentioned here and effectively, the 1:1 view looks exactly like the jpeg export.
But this would be like looking at a 5x6 meter poster from two inches distance, which makes no sense. If you look from a 1 meter distance,
it is logic that you will see a bit less noise, things will look smoother.
This really is an issue. I always had an export and a print that looked exactly like how I saw it in 'fit' view in develop screen in previous versions.
It is completely stupid to be obliged to work in 1:1 mode for developing photos as this is the only option from what I read.
The image ont the left is a screenshot (apple+shift+4) from a jpeg export, 72 dpi, 1288px large side.
The image on the right is a screenshot (apple+shift+4) from a screenshot (apple+shift+4) from de the dev screen in LR, 'fit' view mode, 72dpi 1288px large side.
Both have a different size here because I didn't draw the same sized rectangles when taking the screen shot.
As you can see, there is a lot of noise that I don't see in the dev screen. The screenshot on the right is almost exactly what I see, except that it is a bit less sharper
due to jpeg compression, but it still is a better result than the compression of Lr itself. Should I process like this now instead of using export????
I loose sharpness but it has an overall neater look. The jpeg export is really crappy!
I did used a tiny bit of noise reduction and sharpening (23 - 22 respectively) and this has been shot at ISO 800, 5D miii.
The crop applied in Lr is maybe 8-10% so really not much. I avoid cropping as much as possible.
I updated to 5.3 and issue is resolved for me

White becomes red on export to JPEG - why?

I'm working with photos in lightroom, adjust colors etc. And finally export files to JPEG-format to use them with websites. However: White in lightroom becomes super-soft-red after export to jpeg.
Can someone please help?
Some data that might help:
Macbook, Mac Os Tiger
Lightroom for Mac
Monitor calibrated using Spyder 2
Shooting RAW with SRGB
I've checked all settings in lightroom but don't find any answer.
Thanks in advance
Andreas

>The problem is the difference between my workspace (lightroom) and the resulting JPEG (lightroom export). All my JPEG-exports from lightroom have more red than the version in lightroom.
If you are really exporting to sRGB jpegs (again, shooting in sRGB mode on your camera has NO impact on the RAW files - check whether the export settings in Lightroom are set to sRGB!), there are usually several possible causes for the redshift.
1. Your screen calibration is bad. This is very common and the fix is usually trashing the monitor profile and creating a new one. A common issue is bad monitor profiles supplied by monitor vendors.
2. You are using a wide gamut monitor such as an Eizo, one of the Dell HC screens, etc., and are viewing the exports in unmanaged apps. If you have a monitor that has a gamut significantly different from sRGB, you cannot use unmanaged apps, such as Internet explorer or Firefox 2.0 (basically every windows app except for Vista picture viewer basically), to judge color of your images. You need to use color managed apps, such as Safari, Photoshop, etc. to judge the color. Viewing sRGB images in unmanaged apps on such a screen will make your image appear oversaturated.
3. You are using a dual monitor setup and the OS is confused which profile belongs to which screen. Especially on windows, it is often not possible to really correct for two different screens even if the software tells you it does. This can be hard to diagnose, but usually it just takes plugging out one monitor and recalibrating the one that is still connected.
In conclusion, If you have a typical normal-gamut monitor and you have calibrated correctly, you should see almost NO shift when exporting to sRGB jpegs and viewing in unmanaged apps. The images should look identical in apps that are managed.

Lightroom Export Color Shift

Exported JPEGs from Lightroom have a significant color shift from how they appear inside LR and PS3, which is a distinct magenta shift and oversaturation.
I have read a number of related posts here and elsewhere that explain the importance of setting up color management correctly in Windows, LR and PS3. I have done my best to follow all this advice and still cannot export usable JPEGs from Lightroom. I am using a Spyder 3 and have carefully profiled my Dell 2408WFP monitor. I am processing RAW images from a Canon 30D into sRGB JPEGs for web viewing, and have set up LR to export sRGB while PS3 is set to the sRGB working space.
I have also read that Internet Explorer and other color-unmanaged applications will display images differently. I understand this, but then it seems to me that every image I view inside Windows Picture Viewer or Internet Explorer on this computer would have the same oversaturation and magenta shift that my Lightroom exports do, but this is not the case. Also, my Lightroom-exported JPEGs have an equivalent magenta-tinted and oversaturated appearance on other computers I use, not just my image-editing computer.
I have set up a web page with example images, screen grabs and system technical information, located here: http://www.dougvetter.com/lightroom
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

>What can I do to get predictable color output that looks good outside a color managed environment? All the web content I look at on this exact same system looks just fine in my browser.
The only thing you can do is to calibrate your screen and export to sRGB jpegs.
On average the images will look the same, however very few will look identical simply because there is a lot of variation among screens. The sRGB standard gives you the biggest probability of getting it right. Unfortunately with the current upsurge in people buying laptops, which have in general a far smaller gamut than sRGB (the purple blue problem is caused by bad laptop screens), sRGB is starting to deviate from the average because the average is shifting. At the same time desktop LCDs are giving greater and greater gamut as your DELL display shows. sRGB was designed to represent an average CRT screen. So the crappy quality of laptop LCDs and the refusal of MS to finally live up to their promise of color management in IE is really hurting our chances of getting the right color in front of people.
What we really need is omnipresent color management and some awareness of computers of their monitor's profiles without having to calibrate, similar to printing profiles being delivered by printer manufacturers. They might not be perfect, but they will be good enough. Lacking that, we can really only try to calibrate our screens and use sRGB for web images.

IPTC on export to jpeg screwy

OK, I import some RAW images, add some captions, then export to jpeg. I then open the image in Graphic Converter, and the for the images I have added a caption to, GC says there are two caption fields! One is the caption I added and the other is the IFD0 field calle "ImageDescription" and is set to: "KONICA MINOLTA DIGITAL CAMERA". If I don't enter a caption, the caption is set to "KONICA MINOLTA DIGITAL CAMERA".
Worse, when importing into Gallery2 the IPTC information is not imported. I'm not the only one with the issue.
If I save the file in GC and then import into Gallery2 it works great.
THis all just leads me to believe that Aperture (1.1.2) is not exporting the IPTC info correctly. Your thoughts?
-Allan

>The problem is the difference between my workspace (lightroom) and the resulting JPEG (lightroom export). All my JPEG-exports from lightroom have more red than the version in lightroom.
If you are really exporting to sRGB jpegs (again, shooting in sRGB mode on your camera has NO impact on the RAW files - check whether the export settings in Lightroom are set to sRGB!), there are usually several possible causes for the redshift.
1. Your screen calibration is bad. This is very common and the fix is usually trashing the monitor profile and creating a new one. A common issue is bad monitor profiles supplied by monitor vendors.
2. You are using a wide gamut monitor such as an Eizo, one of the Dell HC screens, etc., and are viewing the exports in unmanaged apps. If you have a monitor that has a gamut significantly different from sRGB, you cannot use unmanaged apps, such as Internet explorer or Firefox 2.0 (basically every windows app except for Vista picture viewer basically), to judge color of your images. You need to use color managed apps, such as Safari, Photoshop, etc. to judge the color. Viewing sRGB images in unmanaged apps on such a screen will make your image appear oversaturated.
3. You are using a dual monitor setup and the OS is confused which profile belongs to which screen. Especially on windows, it is often not possible to really correct for two different screens even if the software tells you it does. This can be hard to diagnose, but usually it just takes plugging out one monitor and recalibrating the one that is still connected.
In conclusion, If you have a typical normal-gamut monitor and you have calibrated correctly, you should see almost NO shift when exporting to sRGB jpegs and viewing in unmanaged apps. The images should look identical in apps that are managed.

Adobe Illustrator Export to JPEG (*.JPG) vs ICC Color Profiles vs Behance

Hi,
I work with Adobe Illustrator CC 2014. When I export my projects into *.JPG format (using both: 'Adobe Illustrator > File > Export' and 'Adobe Illustrator > File > Save for Web') I use ‘Embed ICC’ profile option. Every common image viewer I use (including web browsers and Adobe Bridge) respects those color settings and displays exactly what has been embedded. But when posting on Behance, my color settings are converted into something else! The only solution is to place my Adobe Illustrator file into a new Adobe Photoshop document , then export it into .JPG (with embedded color settings) and then post it to Behance. With this workaround my colors look pretty correct.
Did someone experience the same and could explain why Behance doesn’t respect the Adobe Illustrator export with embedded ICC profile settings?
one thing more – even if my *.JPG produced with Adobe Photoshop (the correct one) is displayed correctly, the cover photo (taken from the original) is still converted into different (Behance’s default??) color space. I believe this shouldn’t work this way. Is there any workaround to this? Is there any way my covers (miniatures) display the 'true' colors?
Please advise
Best Regards,
Pawel Kuc
ccmutants.com

ok. I give up. It seems that Adobe Illustrator can export only to the JPEG File Interchange Format (JFIF) and Behence doesn’t fully support this format (for example it cannot read its icc color data correctly):
(JPEG) Formally, the EXIF and JFIF standards are incompatible. This is because both specify that their particular application segment (APP0 for JFIF, APP1 for Exif) must be the first in the image file. In practice, many programs and digital cameras produce files with both application segments included. This will not affect the image decoding for most decoders, but poorly designed JFIF or Exif parsers may not recognize the file properly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_File_Interchange_Format#Exif_comparison)
I’ve analyzed my files using JPEGsnoop 1.6.1 (really cool app by Calvin Hass, http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/) and here is what I’ve found:
A) *.jpg produced with Adobe Illustrator > File > Export > JPEG > ICC profile embedded:
*** Marker: SOI (xFFD8) ***
OFFSET: 0x00000000
*** Marker: APP0 (xFFE0) ***
OFFSET: 0x00000002
length     = 16
identifier = [JFIF]
version    = [1.2]
density    = 72 x 72 DPI (dots per inch)
thumbnail = 0 x 0
B) *.jpg produced with Adobe Illustrator > File > Save For Web > JPEG > ICC profile embedded:
*** Marker: SOI (xFFD8) ***
OFFSET: 0x00000000
*** Marker: APP0 (xFFE0) ***
OFFSET: 0x00000002
length     = 16
identifier = [JFIF]
version    = [1.2]
density    = 100 x 100 (aspect ratio)
thumbnail = 0 x 0
C) *.jpg produced with Adobe Photoshop > File > Save As > JPEG > ICC Profile embedded
*** Marker: SOI (xFFD8) ***
OFFSET: 0x00000000
*** Marker: APP1 (xFFE1) ***
OFFSET: 0x00000002
length          = 1320
Identifier      = [Exif]
Identifier TIFF = 0x[4D4D002A 00000008]
Endian          = Motorola (big)
TAG Mark x002A = 0x002A
EXIF IFD0 @ Absolute 0x00000014
Dir Length = 0x0007
[Orientation ] = Row 0: top, Col 0: left
[XResolution ] = 720000/10000
[YResolution ] = 720000/10000
[ResolutionUnit ] = Inch
[Software ] = "Adobe Photoshop CC 2014 (Windows)"
[DateTime ] = "2014:08:02 17:21:15"
[ExifOffset ] = @ 0x00A8
Offset to Next IFD = 0x000000D4
EXIF IFD1 @ Absolute 0x000000E0
Dir Length = 0x0006
[Compression ] = JPEG
[XResolution ] = 72/1
[YResolution ] = 72/1
[ResolutionUnit ] = Inch
[JpegIFOffset ] = @ +0x0132 = @ 0x013E
[JpegIFByteCount ] = 1006
Offset to Next IFD = 0x00000000
EXIF SubIFD @ Absolute 0x000000B4
Dir Length = 0x0003
[ColorSpace ] = sRGB
[ExifImageWidth ] = 200
[ExifImageHeight ] = 200
So unfortunately the only option to produce the EXIF JPEG from an Adobe Illustrator project is to: Export *.ai file to JPEG (under Adobe Illustrator) > go to Photoshop > Create new project > Paste the *.jpg > and Sava As JPEG with icc embedded.

How can I make hyperlinks work in InCopy when I export to PDF without using InDesign?

I created an InCopy document with hyperlinks linking to other InCopy documents. When I exported to PDF, these hyperlinks don't work. Is there any way I can make these hyperlinks work without using InDesign? Thanks.

beer and no prepress schrieb:
If it's for the web, why not export to JPEG? Why PDF?
Terrible idea. In a JPG the text will not be alive, you loose all interactivity.
And making JPGs with InDesign is not what the program is meant to make.

Lightroom exporting to JPEG without Detail settings

Similar Messages

Maybe you are looking for