Lightroom's 4 color "spaces"

I’m working on designing an advanced photography course. This course makes use of Lightroom and Photoshop in the photographic workflow.
I’m learning and researching myself as I go along, and I feel I have reached a ceiling on what I can work out from the sources at my disposal thus far.
So I am turning here for help.
I am trying to clarify how tones and colours are affected from the actual scene through to the printed page. This might seem like overkill to some. However, there is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion, not to mention heated discussions amongst photographers about these issues. I’m experimenting with metering and colour / tone targets and my calculations are only meaningful if I understand how tones and colours are affected at every stage of the workflow.
Here’s how I understand it:
There are 4 (sort of) Colour “spaces” in Develop where a real-time dynamic preview of an image is rendered
1.       The “viewing space” (ProPhotoRGB Chromaticity co-ordinates, sRGB gamma)
2.       The “computational space” (ProPhotoRGB chromaticity co-ordinates, linear gamma – “MelissaRGB”)
(Martin Evening’s Lightroom 3 book published by Adobe press - Appendix B, section on color space page 628-632)
Below that, things get a little fuzzy. According to Jeff Schewe (Real World Camera RAW for CS5, page 32) there is a sort of
3.            “Native Camera Space” and of course there is the
4.            RAW data in the file on disk.
So to generate the dynamically rendered preview, the image goes through the four “layers” as follows (from bottom to top). This is almost certainly flawed, but one has to start somewhere when trying to work things out :-)
1. The RAW file is read from disk. Colorimetric interpretation is performed using a camera profile (e.g. Adobe Standard for whatever camera it is you are using). This process puts the image data into “Native camera space” (“Plotted” onto CIE XYZ with D50 white point)
2. In “Native camera space, the scene white balance (as selected by user, guessed by Lightroom or reported by camera) as well as additional camera calibration panel matrix tweaks “informs” the colorimetric conversion into Lightroom’s “computational space” e.g. Melissa RGB. The colorimetric definition of camera RGB primaries and white is re-DEFINED. The demosaicing as well as chromatic aberration corrections are performed in “native camera space”
3. Almost all image processing calculations occur computationally in the  “MelissaRGB Lightroom computational space”
4. What is displayed on the screen, however, has an sRGB tone curve applied. This represents the “viewing” space. The histogram is generated from this and the RGB colour percentage readouts are generated from this as well. In addition, some slider controls from user input are weighted back through the tone curve into the computational space below.
Could someone from Adobe kindly help me to clarify the steps? Eric are you reading this? :-)
Thanks in advance

Sandy - Thanks for the link. The spreadsheets you posted on your site is quite helpful.
Jao – I think what you said goes to the heart of what I am trying to achieve here: “Photograph a grey target at the exact same exposure with the exact same lighting but with different cameras and you'll end up with different values in the raw files” Which is why I encourage photographers to experiment with their cameras in order to understand exactly how the camera will respond in the heat of a real shoot. Set up a scene; take a picture, open in Lightroom. What is clipped and why? Use a reflective spot meter. Repeat. Use a hand held incident meter. Repeat. How much can you reliably recover? Are you happy with what your meter considers the mid-point (and what you set your exposure for on the camera) or do you need to compensate? Just how much latitude do you have between what your camera histogram shows as a blown out highlight and what Lightroom shows as a blown out highlight. This relates to tone. I could go on with more examples, but by now, I am (hopefully) making more sense.
I’m merely trying to clarify that which is already public in order to form a coherent mental picture. And by mental picture I do not mean an accurate representation of the minutiae and maths involved. Think of a subway map. It represents a bird’s eye view of a transportation system in a logical fashion, yet it bears almost no resemblance to the cartographical reality of the physical topography. I really don’t care where the tunnels go, how they were dug, how they are maintained or where they twist and turn. What I AM looking for is a logical (not physical) map. This map tells me where the different lines begin and end, and where I can change from one line to the other. The most important quality of the map as a whole is that it provides context. You can tell, at a glance, how different lines interact with each other and even how it links to other entities such as bus stations or public landmarks.
As many have rightfully pointed out, I should not have to care about the maths/secret sauce/internal calculations. And I don’t. In addition, I am a very happy Lightroom user and I am very comfortable using it. I know what a user needs to know to get his picture from A to B. There is no shortage of information on how to accomplish that.
It might help if I illustrate what I am trying to do below:
Please excuse the low resolution, the maximum height allowed for upload is 600 pixels. The picture below goes on the bottom left of the "layer" picture above.
Even though there are certainly many mistakes in my diagram, this is a helpful visualisation. I derived this diagram from publicly available information. As the subway map, this is a logical (not physical) representation that provides context in a visual form. With a little help from people like Eric I am sure I can correct and expand it. The net result is an enhanced understanding of Lightroom and ACR and where it fits into the photographic process, both in terms of tone and colour.
I am not posting the entire chart here since I am not even certain that a 4 “layered” representation is an appropriate logical representation. I posted the spine of the chart with the 4 “layers” and one part that elaborates on the colorimetric interpretation between the two bottom layers. Comments and corrections are welcomed. And I am convinced that this can be accomplished without divulging anything confidential.

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    82
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    45
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    15
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    45
    44
    45
    45
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    77 R
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    7
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    5
    6
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    Normal
    Normal
    Normal
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    NA
    Off
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    Low
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    NA
    -1
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    NA
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    NA
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    NA
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    NA
    13
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    NA
    15
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    NA
    NA
    17
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    NA
    15
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    12
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    NA
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    NA
    17
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    NA
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    NA
    15
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    NA
    15
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    NA
    15
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    NA
    15
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    On
    NA
    NA
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    NA
    NA
    Off
    NA
    NA
    Digital NR
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    Low
    Low
    Low
    Low
    Low
    Active Color
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    Off(NA)
    Off
    Off(NA)
    Off(NA)
    Off
    Dnie
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    Off
    Off
    Off(NA)
    Off
    Off
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    Off
    Off
    Off
    Off
    Off
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    HDMI Black Level
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    Low
    Low
    Low
    Low
    Low
    Film Mode
    Off(NA)
    Off(NA)
    Off(NA)
    Off(NA)
    Off(NA)
    Off(NA)
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  • Color spaces in Lightroom and Photoshop

    I read that Lightroom uses the large ProPhoto color Space and then again, that it's gamma curve ist close to sRGB. So what is my color space when working in Lightroom? ProPhoto, or sRGb, or something else?
    And what kind of a color management workflow between Photoshop and Lightroom do you advocate? Using ProphotoRGB or sRGB as color work space in Photoshop? I used to work in AdobeRGB in Photoshop. Has this to be changed to gain maximum color consistency?
    Thanks again for any help!
    Johann M Ginther

    Hey Claude,
    if it did not have an attached profile it is almost definitely in sRGB or, more rarely, Apple RGB. Lightroom always assumes sRGB for untagged files which is typically a safe bet. Photoshop generally uses the working space for untagged images. Since you had adobeRGB there, you should get a more saturated image in photoshop then in Lightroom. The same data is simply interpreted in a different color space leading to different colors. This has nothing to do with the monitor profile therefore and my initial hunch was wrong. So for untagged images in photoshop, you should usually assign sRGB to them instead of working space.
    >As for calibration hardware we do use them here so I will use it but since the Mac was brand new out the box I assumed that it was ok...
    Unfortunately, in general the canned calibration is not very good on Macs. I find very large differences between the shipped profile and a profile generated by a calibrator. Also, Apple ships profiles that set your display's gamma to 1.8 instead of the standard 2.2. This leads to many images in webbrowsers being too low contrast. Even Apple suggests recalibrating your screen at 2.2 if you do digital photography work (it's in their Aperture help files). In this case though the difference between Lightroom and Photoshop had nothing to do with the monitor profile but was related to photoshop interpreting untagged files in its working space instead of the more likely sRGB space.

  • Color space from lightroom to flickr

    Can anyone help me with this question....having developed raw images in lightroom, I then may publish some of them on my flickr account.  When these images are exported directly from Lightroom to Flickr, are they automatically exported in sRGB?....especially considering that Lightroom is a ProPhoto RGB color managed application.  I ask this because I know that people may look @ my images in non-color managed web browsers, like Internet Explorer, and if the images are exported in the ProPhoto RGB color space, the image colors will render poorly on that non-color managed web browser.  Are they automatically exported in the web friendly sRGB??  Thanks for your comments:)

    Perhaps you could help me with another question.  I always shoot in raw and process using ProPhoto RGB throughout my entire workflow.  However, 5 years ago, I shot in Jpeg.  I couldn't tell you what colour space my camera was set to then.  When editing those JPEGS in Lightroom, in what colour space should I apply to those images when I send them over to Photoshop?  I know JPEGs already have a colour space applied, but the camera I used then is long gone and therefore can't remember if they were shot in sRGB or Adobe RGB.  Also, whatever colour space I do use when exporting from Lightroom to Photoshop, I should set up Photoshop's working colour space to match the image's profile, correct?  So, should I apply sRGB or Adobe RGB to my JPEGs when going from Lightroom to Photoshop??  Thanks:)

  • Lightroom Color Space Problem.

    Hello,
    I am processing my photos in Lightrrom. The histogram in Lightroom looks ok without any clipping, but when i export them to AdobeRGB or sRGB (for web) the photos have clipped shadows or highlights or both. I belive that the problem is that the histogram in lightroom reflect the data of the photo in ProPhoto RGB, and when you export to a narrow color space the clipping happens.
    Is there any way to fix this? I will always have clipping if i export to AdobeRGB or sRGB? What do you do to not have this problem?
    Beside of the clipping problem. The diferece between the histogram in the develop module in Lightroom and the histogram of the exported photo in AdobeRGB or sRGB makes that you don't know what the exported photo will look like, is like working blind. I don't know about you guys, but for me the is a big problem. Well, maybe if you work all in ProPhoto RGB this is a little issue.
    I would appreciate a lot any help or comment that you could give me.
    Thanks, :)
    Marcelo.

    Another thing I sometimes do is to save the development settings (save metadata in metadata menu) to file in LR, and then open the RAW in Camera RAW. In camera RAW the histogram reflects the color space you set, so you can optimize the development settings there. Then I close Camera Raw, which updates the xmp file (or the stuff written into the dng) and in LR do read metadata from file, which will apply the changed settings. This does the trick typically.

  • Does Lightroom care about camera color space settings?

    I am using a NEX 7.  Color space options on the camera are sRGB and AdobeRGB.  Does Lightroom care about the camera color space settings when it sees RAW files?

    Colorspace is used in-camera for creating the jpeg preview embedded in the raw file (and/or jpeg sidecar).
    The colorspace is embedded in the jpeg sidecar, and so Lightroom will respect it.
    The colorspace is *usually* NOT embedded in the raw preview (although in my opinion it should be). Its in the raw file as proprietary metadata.
    All camera manufacturer softwares respect the colorspace for initial raw preview, but Lightroom does not.
    (Lightroom doesn't attend to any proprietary metadata, except white balance).
    Cheers,
    Rob

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