LR3 JPEG/DNG Metadata Confusion

Hi,
I'm a little confused about XMP data and the LR3 catalog itself.
First, I understand that DNG files can have embedded keywords and other metadata -- and 95% of my files are CR2 files that I bring into LR3 as DNGs and keep them as DNGs. So I am NOT using raw files with sidecar files.
But where I'm confused is the "automatically write changes into XMP" LR3 catalog option and how it relates to JPEG files.
I was of the understanding that if I make changes in the develop module (eg. contrast) to a JPEG file (not a DNG), then these changes will NOT be saved to the original JPEG file, but will be "recorded" in the LR3 catalog.
But now If I allow LR3 to "automatically write changes into XMP" -- will this WRITE these develop module changes (e.g. the contrast change) to the original JPEG? Or does the "automatically write changes into XMP" only refer to the keywords and other metadata in a JPEG file?
Thanks for any help in clearing this up,
R

So just so I have this correct with JPEGs:
1, If I make changes in LR3 to a JPEG (e.g. contrast), this contrast change is saved in the LR3 catalog.
2. I can ADDITIONALLY save metadata (keywords, etc) in XMP data into a JPEG if I have the "automatically write xmp." settings checked or if I save it manually to the file
3. I can ADDITIONALLY save the develop settings (e.g. the contrast change I made in #1) by including the develop data in the JPEG in the same dialogue box.
But now if I opened this keyword, added contrast-adjusted JPEG in another program, only "XMP-aware" programs would allow me to see these keywords and contrast changes. Is this a correct assessment?
And lastly, if I do save the develop settings to the JPEG itself, doesn't that violate the "non-destructive" editing concept of LR3?
Thanks again!

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APERTURE2+PHOTOSHOPCS3- DNG+JPEG - BEST WORKFLOW (+IPHOTO09 ??)

Sorry for my English (I'm Italian)
I shoot Raw+Jpeg (DNG). Keep Photos on External Drive. I like to import to Aperture directly from the External Drive. LATER I use PS to Edit Jpeg (if it is acceptable) or DNG if it is necessary to use the kind of adjustment you only get from RAW. Than I saw the image as Jpeg REPLACEING the original Jpeg made in the Camera (Pentax K10 and K20) keeping the same file name of course of previous Jpeg and RAW. I like to use Aperture to arrange pictures and to publish on Gallery or with iWeb.
This sometimes creates some confusion: it happens that later Aperture finds more that one singe Jpeg, with same file name and (1) or (2) and so on.
Which would be the best workflow ? I would like to keep the DNG unchanged on the external drive and several Jpeg if I wish more editions.
Amd which could be the best way to separate DNG from Jpeg into Aperture ? Is it really the best solution to see them "toghether" in Aperture ??
I am also wondering if I could install iPhoto 09 and use it to organize the facies... but later ?
What will happen with Aperture.
I know I use this software not in the best way but....
Give me a simple suggestion and I will try to follow. At the moment I am thinking to keep completely separate the DNG from Jpeg to be sure not to mix them.
Thanks for your patience and time.

Sorry for my English (I'm Italian)
I shoot Raw+Jpeg (DNG). Keep Photos on External Drive. I like to import to Aperture directly from the External Drive. LATER I use PS to Edit Jpeg (if it is acceptable) or DNG if it is necessary to use the kind of adjustment you only get from RAW. Than I saw the image as Jpeg REPLACEING the original Jpeg made in the Camera (Pentax K10 and K20) keeping the same file name of course of previous Jpeg and RAW. I like to use Aperture to arrange pictures and to publish on Gallery or with iWeb.
This sometimes creates some confusion: it happens that later Aperture finds more that one singe Jpeg, with same file name and (1) or (2) and so on.
Which would be the best workflow ? I would like to keep the DNG unchanged on the external drive and several Jpeg if I wish more editions.
Amd which could be the best way to separate DNG from Jpeg into Aperture ? Is it really the best solution to see them "toghether" in Aperture ??
I am also wondering if I could install iPhoto 09 and use it to organize the facies... but later ?
What will happen with Aperture.
I know I use this software not in the best way but....
Give me a simple suggestion and I will try to follow. At the moment I am thinking to keep completely separate the DNG from Jpeg to be sure not to mix them.
Thanks for your patience and time.

LR3 does not find metadata from XMP sidecars that EM2 does

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EM2 reads the XMP files and properly handles the metadata.
Googling turns up quite a few people with this issue.
My understanding is that LR3 is supposed to treat the XMP with precedence over the image file metadata but it does not seem to do this. Is there an option to be set?
This is an example XMP
<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/" x:xmptk="3.1.1-112">
   <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
         <dc:format>application/vnd.adobe.photoshop</dc:format>
         <dc:subject>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li>pbr</rdf:li><rdf:li>steam</rdf:li><rdf:li>emerald funfest</rdf:li>
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         <dc:description>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default"></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </dc:description>
         <dc:creator>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li>Paul Pavlinovich</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </dc:creator>
         <dc:title>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">Emerald Funfest 2010</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
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            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">© Paul Pavlinovich</rdf:li>
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         </dc:rights>
      </rdf:Description>
<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:photoshop="http://ns.adobe.com/photoshop/1.0/">
         <photoshop:TransmissionReference></photoshop:TransmissionReference>
         <photoshop:Instructions>Contact Paul Pavlinovich for permission to use</photoshop:Instructions>
         <photoshop:Credit></photoshop:Credit>
         <photoshop:Source></photoshop:Source>
         <photoshop:Headline></photoshop:Headline>
         <photoshop:City>Melbourne</photoshop:City>
         <photoshop:State>Victoria</photoshop:State>
         <photoshop:Country>Australia</photoshop:Country>
         <photoshop:AuthorsPosition></photoshop:AuthorsPosition>
         <photoshop:CaptionWriter></photoshop:CaptionWriter>
         <photoshop:Category></photoshop:Category>
         <photoshop:SupplementalCategories>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </photoshop:SupplementalCategories>
         <photoshop:DateCreated></photoshop:DateCreated>
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<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:Iptc4xmpCore="http://iptc.org/std/Iptc4xmpCore/1.0/xmlns/">
         <Iptc4xmpCore:CreatorContactInfo rdf:parseType="Resource">
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrExtadr></Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrExtadr>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCity>Emerald</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCity>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrRegion>VIC</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrRegion>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrPcode>3782</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrPcode>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCtry>Australia</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCtry>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiTelWork></Iptc4xmpCore:CiTelWork>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiEmailWork>paulpATsteamengine.com.au</Iptc4xmpCore:CiEmailWork>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiUrlWork>www.steamengine.com.au</Iptc4xmpCore:CiUrlWork>
         </Iptc4xmpCore:CreatorContactInfo>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:CountryCode></Iptc4xmpCore:CountryCode>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:SubjectCode>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </Iptc4xmpCore:SubjectCode>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:IntellectualGenre></Iptc4xmpCore:IntellectualGenre>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:Scene>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </Iptc4xmpCore:Scene>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:Location>Emerald</Iptc4xmpCore:Location>
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<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:mediapro="http://ns.iview-multimedia.com/mediapro/1.0/">
         <mediapro:Status></mediapro:Status>
         <mediapro:Event></mediapro:Event>
         <mediapro:People>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
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         </mediapro:People>
         <mediapro:CatalogSets>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
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<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xapRights="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/rights/">
        <xapRights:Marked>True</xapRights:Marked>
        <xapRights:UsageTerms>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">All rights reserved</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </xapRights:UsageTerms>
         <xapRights:WebStatement></xapRights:WebStatement>
      </rdf:Description>
   </rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta>


An update... if I change metadata in EM2 and force it to write it back to the XMP then LR3 can synchronize and suddenly has meta
data for the image.
The XMP after the change in EM2 is
<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/" x:xmptk="3.1.1-112">
   <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
         <dc:format>application/vnd.adobe.photoshop</dc:format>
         <dc:subject>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li>pbr</rdf:li><rdf:li>steam</rdf:li><rdf:li>emerald funfest</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </dc:subject>
         <dc:description>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default"></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </dc:description>
         <dc:creator>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li>Paul Pavlinovich</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </dc:creator>
         <dc:title>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">Emerald Funfest 2010</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </dc:title>
         <dc:rights>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">© Paul Pavlinovich</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </dc:rights>
      </rdf:Description>
<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:photoshop="http://ns.adobe.com/photoshop/1.0/">
         <photoshop:TransmissionReference></photoshop:TransmissionReference>
         <photoshop:Instructions>Contact Paul Pavlinovich for permission to use</photoshop:Instructions>
         <photoshop:Credit></photoshop:Credit>
         <photoshop:Source></photoshop:Source>
         <photoshop:Headline></photoshop:Headline>
         <photoshop:City>Melbourne</photoshop:City>
         <photoshop:State>Victoria</photoshop:State>
         <photoshop:Country>Australia</photoshop:Country>
         <photoshop:AuthorsPosition></photoshop:AuthorsPosition>
         <photoshop:CaptionWriter></photoshop:CaptionWriter>
         <photoshop:Category></photoshop:Category>
         <photoshop:SupplementalCategories>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </photoshop:SupplementalCategories>
         <photoshop:DateCreated></photoshop:DateCreated>
      </rdf:Description>
<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:Iptc4xmpCore="http://iptc.org/std/Iptc4xmpCore/1.0/xmlns/">
         <Iptc4xmpCore:CreatorContactInfo rdf:parseType="Resource">
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrExtadr></Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrExtadr>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCity>Emerald</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCity>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrRegion>VIC</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrRegion>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrPcode>3782</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrPcode>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCtry>Australia</Iptc4xmpCore:CiAdrCtry>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiTelWork></Iptc4xmpCore:CiTelWork>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiEmailWork>paulpATsteamengine.com.au</Iptc4xmpCore:CiEmailWork>
            <Iptc4xmpCore:CiUrlWork>www.steamengine.com.au</Iptc4xmpCore:CiUrlWork>
         </Iptc4xmpCore:CreatorContactInfo>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:CountryCode></Iptc4xmpCore:CountryCode>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:SubjectCode>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </Iptc4xmpCore:SubjectCode>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:IntellectualGenre></Iptc4xmpCore:IntellectualGenre>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:Scene>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </Iptc4xmpCore:Scene>
         <Iptc4xmpCore:Location>Emerald</Iptc4xmpCore:Location>
      </rdf:Description>
<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:mediapro="http://ns.iview-multimedia.com/mediapro/1.0/">
         <mediapro:Status></mediapro:Status>
         <mediapro:Event></mediapro:Event>
         <mediapro:People>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </mediapro:People>
         <mediapro:CatalogSets>
            <rdf:Bag>
               <rdf:li></rdf:li>
            </rdf:Bag>
         </mediapro:CatalogSets>
      </rdf:Description>
<rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xapRights="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/rights/">
        <xapRights:Marked>True</xapRights:Marked>
        <xapRights:UsageTerms>
            <rdf:Alt>
               <rdf:li xml:lang="x-default">All rights reserved</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Alt>
         </xapRights:UsageTerms>
         <xapRights:WebStatement></xapRights:WebStatement>
      </rdf:Description>
   </rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta>

Xmp to DNG?

I belive when you choose (Libarary>Catalog Settings>Metadata>Automatically Write Changes Into XMP) the changes to the metadata is also written into a DNG file.
I change my photos to DNG upon import so I was looking for the setting to auto write changes to file. Checking the box above did what I wanted, at least in LR3, but I think this should be made clear in the settings dialogue.
I know when i have made suggestions before I discovered what I wanted was already there but I just didn't find it. I'm assuming that the DNG files contains something called XMP but it wasn't clear to me that the setting above would write to the dng file or create a sidecar file. My suggestion is that the Catalog settings dialogue makes this clear so one wouldn't wonder what to check. Unless I'm sending xmp files back and forth to an editor whom already has the camera raw file, which I don't, it shouldn't be expected that I even know what an XMP file is.
Thanks.
Eric

jim01403 wrote:
I believe the metadata written to the DNG would be the same as written to a sidecar, BUT neither of them would be the complete set of metadata that is stored in the catalog. Specifically: Flags, VCs, collection membership, develop history, stacks plus some panel switches, are not written to the file by "Auto Write XMP", or the manual Ctrl-S operation.
Moving from LR to ACR, I do see develop settings updating in the DNG with Auto XMP on, that is good. But no a Snapshot. Using Command (control) S does update the snapshot. Interesting! There is no Develop History in ACR so I assume you are correct since Snapshots don’t appear to update with the auto XMP setting.
I suspect that the Save Metadata command for DNG might update everything expect the preview for the JPEG. It is pretty fast to operate while using the Update Metadata and Preview command takes more time for obvious reasons.
If I have this correct, with your help, I’d suggest we have three options:
1. Auto update XMP. Provides the same update for DNG as raws with sidecar files but as you point out, doesn’t update everything. Some data is within the catalog.
2. Save Metadata to File* (Command/Control S). Updates all (?) the other items expect the embedded preview (a size one sets in preferences). Here is where I’m not totally clear what does or doesn’t update the DNG that lives in the catalog. I’m not sure everything is necessary to update anyway (there are no VC’s in ACR or for that matter other converters so I see no need in specifying this data).
3. Update DNG Metadata and Preview*: Saves all of the above into the DNG.
*Only accessible from Library which is kind of a limitation. It would be really nice if one could ask for option 2 and/or option 3 along with the Auto update XMP preferences for DNG users. Then as you edit your DNG, when the system is presumably idle, all that data could be updated into the DNG. Option 3 will invoke a speed hit, option 2 seems to be as quick as option 1.

Working in DNG - Edit in Photoshop - Rework on DNG

Hi there,
I'm bit confused by this whole thing about DNG and editing in Photoshop for pixel based editing and so on...
Let's say I have some photos in RAW and I convert them do DNG using Lightroom, then, I do some modifications and update the DNG metadata so I don't have to export the changes to a new DNG file.
Now, there's something I need to edit in my photo, for instance, remove a person that's on my photo and I don't want it, I need Photoshop for that. How should I go in doing this? (not the actual person removal)
I mean, if I click on the photo and then on "Edit in Photoshop" I'm presented with a dialog that only allows me to edit a copy of my DNG file and I leave all the options at their defaults (TIFF, bla bla bla...). A TIF file is created alongside the same directory of the DNG file and Photoshop is opened.
How do I go and edit my file in Photoshop, save the changes and apply those changes made in Photoshop to the DNG file I was working before?
Basically, I want to keep my photos as DNG but the problem is how do I do that if I need to do some pixel based changes. I ask this because Photoshop does not allow me to save files in DNG format. And if I edit the TIF file in Photoshop and save it, back at Lightroom, I'll have 2 files, one in TIF and the other in DNG. The DNG is the original where the TIF is the edited one. However, the TIF file lost all of the original settings, for instance, I had a cropping and if I go to the DNG file I can change the cropping if I think it needs retouching but I can't do that to the TIF.
Does this mean that I should all my pixel based editing before I decide to develop my photo in Lightroom? What if I forgot or what if I only realize I need to do some more pixel based editing after starting developing my photo in Lightroom?
P.S: Sorry for the long post...

But you cannot have it both ways. It doesn't work that way, and it never will. Lightroom editing, as well as ACR editing, is stored as metadata. But once you open the image in Photoshop you are switching over to pixel editing. You are changing the actual pixel data in your image. That is why we cannot save Photoshop changes back to the DNG file or the original raw file. That is also why a new file has to be created. Lightroom just does it at the beginning when it transfers the image to Photoshop.
Everyone has their own workflow, and I'm not suggesting that you follow mine. But I do as much editing as I possibly can in ACR. I don't have Lightroom, but Camera Raw (ACR) works under the same principle. When I have done as much as I can in ACR I save my work as a PSD or TIF image, and that is the file that I use as my master for creating other versions. You just have to rethink your workflow because you cannot save Photoshop changes back to your raw images. It isn't logical, and it is not desirable.

To update a DNG file?????

Lightroom v1.1 has the following in its Help File----
Save metadata changes to the file manually
* Select one or more photos and choose Metadata > Save Metadata To File.
* In Grid view, click the down arrow icon in a thumbnail image to save (update) the metadata in the file.
Note: The Save Metadata To File command does not update metadata in a DNG file. To update a DNG file, choose Metadata > Update DNG Preview & Metadata.
My 1st question is--
If one maintains their photos in DNG format, based on the above statement does it make ANY sense to check the option File->Catalog Settings->Automatically write changes to XMP?
Taken literally, it seems to me that LR DOES NOT write changes (either manually or automatically) to XMP in a DNG file, unless one specifically uses the "Update DNG Preview & Metadata".
My confusion comes from the process in v1.0 for DNG metadata changes. v1 would save metadata, but you needed ACR 4.X to separately update the JPG.
Which leads me to my 2nd question-
Is Adobe using Preview and embedded JPG as the same thing? I'm assuming :) that what's being updated is the embedded JPG in the DNG and perhaps also any preview in the database.
Obviously, any comments would be appreciated.
Dave

GreSep wrote: I saw another LR discussion that said that with LR 4.3 updating Capture Time would also update Date Time Digitized but it does not do so for me on my DNGs (and as of last month ALL my images were converted to DNGs).
One or two intermediate versions of LR 3 (perhaps Lr 3.6) set DateTimeDigitized when you gave the Metadata > Edit Capture Time command. But for people managing scans in which the capture time of the original image was different than the scan time, this behavior overwrote their scan times, so Adobe backed out of that change. Before and since those versions, the Metadata > Edit Capture Time command just changes the EXIF:DateTimeOriginal and related fields in XMP and IPTC.

LR3 JPEG/DNG Metadata Confusion

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