More CS 5 - ProRes 4444 Alpha channel nonsense

Hi:
Quicktimes I render out of After Effects CS 5 using the ProRes 4444 codec are tagged as having an alpha channel even though my settings in the Output Module are RGB and Trillions of Colors. NOT RGB + Alpha and Trillions of Colors+. It doesn't matter whether my project is 8 bit or 16 bit.
When I bring such movies back into AE it shows them as having an alpha channel (Trillions of Colors+). If I do a Get Info in QT player it shows Millions of Colors+, and FCP shows them as having an alpha, too.
I just upgraded to Snow Leopard 10.6.8 (figured it was safe after two years) and in the process switched full time to CS 5 (I only used it in the past to open other's projects). I never had these issues with CS4. I have not installed any AJA codecs into this new OS (clean install over wiped HD).
This appears to be the opposite of the problem most have been having, which is AE won't generate an alpha in ProRes 4444 without moving codecs and other nonsense.
The reason this is a problem is because when I bring these Quicktimes with faux alphas into FCP for editing I can't export a reference movie. FCP rewrites the whole timeline.
Haven't these CS 5/ProRes 4444 codec/Alpha channel issues been going on for over a year? Do I have to buy CS 5.5 to get this to work correctly?
Thanks.
Shawn Marshall
Marshall Arts Motion Graphics

PR422HQ is way overkill for 99% of the video and film producers in the world. It's there for a specific elite of the entertainment biz, those who work in 4k on 64bit systems, I guess, that' ain't me! It's one of those "if you have to ask, you can't use it" sort of things. Anyone who uses the advanced features of the ProRes family knows why. That's the theory. In my practical experience over on the FCP forum at Apple, 99% of those using ProResHQ believe they are improving their original footage.
Apple ProRes 4444
The Apple ProRes 4444 codec offers the utmost possible quality for 4:4:4 sources and for workflows involving alpha channels. It includes the following features:
Full-resolution, mastering-quality 4:4:4:4 RGBA color (an online-quality codec for editing and finishing 4:4:4 material, such as that originating from Sony HDCAM SR or digital cinema cameras such as RED ONE, Thomson Viper FilmStream, and Panavision Genesis cameras). The R, G, and B channels are lightly compressed, with an emphasis on being perceptually indistinguishable from the original material.
Lossless alpha channel with real-time playback
High-quality solution for storing and exchanging motion graphics and composites
For 4:4:4 sources, a data rate that is roughly 50 percent higher than the data rate of Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Direct encoding of, and decoding to, RGB pixel formats
Support for any resolution, including SD, HD, 2K, 4K, and other resolutions
A Gamma Correction setting in the codec’s advanced compression settings pane, which allows you to disable the 1.8 to 2.2 gamma adjustment that can occur if RGB material at 2.2 gamma is misinterpreted as 1.8. This setting is also available with the Apple ProRes 422 codec.
Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
The Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) codec offers the utmost possible quality for 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 sources (without an alpha channel) and provides the following:
Target data rate of approximately 220 Mbps (1920 x 1080 at 60i)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422
Apple ProRes 422
The Apple ProRes 422 codec provides the following:
Target data rate of approximately 145 Mbps (1920 x 1080 at 60i)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422 (LT)
Apple ProRes 422 (LT)
The Apple ProRes 422 (LT) codec provides the following:
Roughly 70 percent of the data rate of Apple ProRes 422 (thus, smaller file sizes than Apple ProRes 422)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy)
Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy)
The Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) codec is intended for use in offline workflows and provides the following:
Roughly 30 percent of the data rate of Apple ProRes 422
High-quality offline editing at the original frame size, frame rate, and aspect ratio
High-quality edit proxy for Final Cut Server
The Apple ProRes family of codecs provides these advantages:
Quality indistinguishable from that of the most pristine sources: Maintains superb quality even after multiple encoding/decoding generations.
Mastering-quality 4:4:4:4 RGBA: Provides a lossless alpha channel with real-time playback (Apple ProRes 4444 only). Mastering-quality 4:4:4 Y′CBCRcolor and 4:2:2 Y′CBCR color are also available.
The quality of uncompressed HD at data and storage rates lower than those of uncompressed SD: Provides real-time editing performance comparable to or better than that of any other HD codecs in Final Cut Pro.
Apple ProRes encoding at any frame size—SD, HD, 2K, 4K, or other: Apple ProRes codecs can also be encoded into nonstandard frame sizes, but nonstandard frame sizes are not supported for real-time playback in Final Cut Pro.
Variable bit rate (VBR) encoding: “Smart” encoding analyzes the image. Efficiency is increased because excess bits are not wasted on simple frames.
10-bit sample depth: Preserves subtle gradients of 10-bit sources (sunsets, graphics, and the like) with no visible banding artifacts. When you import a file using an Apple ProRes codec, you don’t have to first determine whether the file is an 8-bit or 10-bit file. Apple ProRes codecs always preserve the bit depth of your original source files.
I-frame–only (intraframe) encoding: Ensures consistent quality in every frame, with no artifacts from complex motion, and speeds up editing.
Fast encoding and decoding: Delivers high-quality, real-time playback and faster rendering times.
Equipment affordability: Because of low bit rates, you can edit more streams with more real-time effects on slower drives, or have more users accessing the same media over shared storage devices.
Workflow options for any video format that does not have native Final Cut Pro support: The Apple ProRes format provides an effective workflow for projects involving multiple acquisition formats when you want to standardize on a single codec.
Better rendering for native editing: Can be used to render long-GOP MPEG-2 formats (such as HDV and XDCAM HD) to speed up editing and avoid MPEG-2 reencoding artifacts before output.

Similar Messages

CS5: ProRes 4444 Alpha issue rears it head again in a strange way

So here's a strange one: I've found that if the first frame of a composition is completely opaque (such as using a solid to fade from black) then any QT Movie rendered with ProRes 4444 + Alpha will not include an alpha channel. I've replicated it on multiple machines and triple checked my MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCS5.xml to ensure that it's correct. Here's the steps to recreate this:
create a new comp (Project bit depth = 16bpc)
create a new solid with the same dimensions as the comp
at Frame 0 create a keyframe for the Solid's opacity (Keep it at 100%)
move down 5 frames in the comp and create a new keyframe by setting the Solid's opacity to 0%
set the work area to 1 second
Render a movie using ProRes 4444 RBG+Alpha
The resulting movie will have no Alpha channel. If you watch the movie being rendered with Caps Lock off and 'Toggle Transparency Grid' active, then you can see the alpha channel while the render is going. If you render using Animation Compression RGB+Alpha, it will be correct. You can also replace the solid with footage as long as the first frame of the rendered comp is completely opaque and the issue is still there. Move the solid or footage down in the time line 1 frame so the first frame of the comp has a transparent alpha channel, then the movie rendered from that will be correct. This has only been tested and confirmed on the Mac and only CS5. If anyone can test and confirm the PC CS5 and Mac & PC CS5.5 it would be greatly appreciated.

You've found a bug. I'm not sure where the problem is. If I render out an image sequence or an Animation Codec file, then drop it in Media Encoder or Compressor to render a ProRez 444 with alpha channel I occasionally get the bug. You can't tell anything from the Quicktime Player but you can see the error in AE.
I discovered that if you put one even partially transparent pixel anywhere in the frame the alpha renders perfectly, but as you pointed out, when the first frame or few frames have a 0 alpha value the renders are funky. I just don't know if it's AE's problem, Adobe's problem, or an Apple problem because I can break it in compressor or Media Encoder or I can make it work in either.
I'd file a bug.

Motion 4 Prores 4444 alpha not showing up in Motion answered

Hi,
I recently exported a Prores 4444 from Motion and when bringing it back in there was no transparency. I found the same issue in this discussion, and it was marked unanswered. It has been answered, but a clarification needs to be added and I was unable to reply to the discussion for whatever reason. A 1 pixel crop is the answer BUT it must be applied at the Media level and not the layer level.
http://discussions.info.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=10487207
Hope this helps the next poor soul who scratches their head and wonders why wont motion just work sometimes...

Yes, thanks - weird one, but I'll try and remember it...
Patrick

Alpha Channel Transparency Rendering

Forgive me if this is somewhere on this forum as the forums are a bit confusing to me. If it is please point me in the right direction.
I am trying to create a simple effect and then use that effect as a luma matte in a NLE like Final Cut Pro or Avid. What I am not sure how to do is to render the video file so that it will have an alpha channel or transparency information. A work around I have tried was to create the image and lower its hue/saturation and then remove the hue/sat and use the two together but that had unpredictable results. If it helps I'm using the spike light ball effect on a black solid with its count turned up and its global angle animated to +15 after 10 seconds so basically the light does a cool rotate effect. Thanks for any help :)

Render and export to a format that can include an alpha channel. Make sure that you have selected the option(s) in the export settings that tell the encoder to include the alpha channel. One such setting is the bit depth Millions Of Colors+, in which the plus sign refers to the alpha channel. Another example of such a setting is the Encode Alpha Channel option in the Video tab of the export settings dialog box for FLV output using On2 VP6 codec.
For more information, see the
"About alpha channels and mattes" section of After Effects Help on the Web.

ProRes 4444 with BOTH Alpha Channel AND Timecode?

Recently did a large project of creating alpha channels from green screen footage.
Made the timelines 4444 and tried to output.
If I export as Quicktime, I get the timecode but not the Alpha channel.
If I export as Quicktime Conversion, I can get the Alpha channel, but not the timecode.
Am I doing something fundamentally wrong?
Is there a way to get both on the same output?
Like I said, this project is large -- 91 files -- and it takes more than 8 hours to export out either way even on a current 6 core machine.
What I really do NOT want to have to do is some crazy copy and paste of the timecode information from two separate exports.

You said, "'export as Quicktime' is a very vague description."
Actually, it's not.
A person only has a few choices in Final Cut Pro. If you want to get really specific;
File > Export > QuckTime Movie...
Or
File > Export > Using QuickTime Conversion...
That's it!
With the first and ONLY the first, it will export whatever is on your timeline and you can get Timecode, but I can't figure out a way to make it output the Alpha channel with it.
With the other, you can get any sort of converted output you can input, including ProRes 4444 and Alpha, but unfortunately not the Timecode track.
UNLESS some Guru out there knows some sort of trick.
I'm hoping to find somebody that knows one.

Alpha channel and ProRes 4444

I have a number of AE files that I would like to render in Media Encoder with their alpha channels using the ProRes 4444 codec. I cannot figure out how to make ME give me an alpha channel. If I render in AE, I get the alpha channel without a problem. How can I get ME to give me an alpha channel? I am using ME 2014 on a Mac.

Hi Remy,
Choose QuickTime. Then from the list of formats in the Video tab, choose ProRes 4444. Scroll down to "Depth" and choose 32 bit. This will allow you to export with an alpha channel.
Thanks,
Kevin

CS5.5 | ProRes 4444 - Interpret Footage does NOT see Alpha Channel

I thought this problem would have been taken care of by now.
Guess the bug fixes in CS5.5 are few if at all
1) Export any movie to ProRes 4444 and set to export alpha channel straight.
2) re-import to AE
3) Open Interpret Footage Dialog....
One gets REALLY disillusioned when discovering that ALL alpha options have been grayed out.
When is this ProRes MADNESS going to STOP !!!!!

Dan,
if you are ever in Hamburg, Germany. Let me know and the brews are on ME.
In my testing madness I exported a movie WITH NO ALPHA.... That is the reason why I was NOT seeing any alpha options on import.
I dup'ed the vid layer and moved it about and set the opacity to 50... Then exported. And imported. And THERE they were ....
LE ALPHA OPTIONS....
Best Regards
M.

Problems with Apple ProRes 4444 and alpha channels in Motion 4 after upgrade to Snow Leopard. Has anyone seen this?

We've just now upgraded from Leopard to Snow Leopard and are having a problem with Apple ProRes 4444 and alpha channels in Motion 4. A clip with an alpha which keyed perfectly before the upgrade, now will not key. If I convert the clip to the Animation codec, it keys perfectly. If I export the Motion project as a ProRes 4444 self contained movie, it will key when brought into FCP 7 but if I import the project into FCP 7, it will show the key in the viewer but not the canvas. Has anyone seen this or have any suggestions on how to correct this? Is it a bug?
Thanks,

Motion 4.0.3
It just doesn't seem to recognize the alpha at all.

Rendering to ProRes 4444 with alpha channel

Hello Everybody,
I have question? I have a green screen project finished. But when i render my footage to ProRes 4444 with aplha i got a mega file more then 5gb. In the specifications I found out that I have a bitrate of 203,57 Mbit/s. How can i lower the bitrate in the rendersettingd for this codec?
I hop to hear some of your suggestions.
Kind regards,
Gowan Genis

What Andrew said.... Production codecs are all going to have high data rates. That's why we use them in production. Storage is so cheap now that it shouldn't be a problem for anyone that is making a living making movies or for anyone with enough budget to support a movie making hobby. My first 4GB Ultra SCSI drive array cost nearly $20K, I just bought a 1.5TB drive for $89... It wasn't that long ago that I was paying $1 / foot to shoot, process, work print and sync 35MM film. (98 feet / minute @ 24 fps).
If you want a smaller file size you'll have to go to a delivery codec. Just be sure you know what to use when...

Premiere Not Interpreting Alpha Transparency ProRes 4444

Hello,
I've imported a graphic, ProRes 4444 with an alpha channel but Premiere 6.0.2 is not reading the transparency. When I lay it on top of another clip the transparent part shows as black rather than being transparent and showing the layer underneath. It seems like the same error is happening in After Effects.
Final Cut 7 reads the transparency fine. I read that the same problem was happening on earlier versions of Premiere and After Effects.
I'm working with a Mac Pro, NVIDIA Quadro 4000, Lion.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Gerry

Hi,
Thanks for responding and getting back to me guys
@ Fuzzy...Trust me... I didn't think it would work...it didn't make sense to me either but I misunderstood Gerry...he doesn't know that I am operating exclusively on a PC using only PC based software...I don't have a MAC.
@ Kevin...as you have garnered by now I can't use APPLE MOTION because I am on a PC. I used Sorenson Squeeze to convert the file to an Animation File. For hours I tried importing and manipulating it in Premiere AND in After Effects with No luck whatsoever. I tried everything I could think of.
It is a virtual set and I was given 2 files:
Per instructions from a video tutorial on YouTube titled: "Adobe Premiere Tutorial Set Alpha Matte" I successfully excuted the instructions but the ALPHA STILL DIDN'T WORK:
File #1) The alpha.mov file is on VIDEO LAYER 3: > I placed a Channel> Set Matte> set to "Use For Matte" > Luminance on the VIDEO LAYER 3 alpha.mov file > Take Matte From Layer> VIDEO LAYER 2
File #2) The fullHD.mov file is on VIDEO LAYER 2
Should I send you the file to take look at Kevin?
Thanks again

Motion 5 Alpha Channel Support

Does anyone have an answer on what is supported? I know Prores444, but I can get transparency information out of the Animation Codec, but it results in jerky vision when field based media is imported into Avid. The file does contain an alpha channel, but there is a problem, on import to Avid V6
Anyone recommend a good workflow for getting Video + Alpha out of Motion 5 and into a PC based Avid that doesn't have Prores, and surely it doesn't involve a 2 pass output with separate Matte and Fill.
John

ProRes 4444 has a playing bandwidth that can choke all but the fastest computers. FCPX uses Optimized versions of video to get the playability down to a reasonable rate. ProRes 4444 makes editing video simple, and therefore provides a better environment for frame level edits.
I didn't know you could export Animation out of Motion 5... I have the Animation codec, but it doesn't appear as an option for me...
Anywho...
You have other options.
1) you can export Alpha channel as a travel matte in any codec you like. From the Share > Export Movie dialog, in the Render section, the Color dropdown menu, select Alpha (only). You will also need to export the Color channels as a separate video.
[*I know you already stated you do not want to use this option but it means you can use any codec.]
2) you can Share > Export as Image Sequence and use PNG, PSD or TIFF
Image sequences seem messy, but if you group all the images into a dedicated folder, it's not that different from a video file. You could even import them into Avid and export a compatible video file, then delete the sequence (just assuming - I haven't tried using Avid since the 1995 Mac version so I have no real idea if that's the case.)
Any self-respecting NLE can handle travel mattes and image sequences.
HTH

ProRes 4444 assets not compositing properly on export

Hey there!
Just trying Premiere out on my first project since jumping ship from FCP. All great thus far, but I'm having an issue with some ProRes assets which have an alpha channel. They're some animated titles which were made in AE, which are supposed to sit on top of the live action footage. The live action footage is P2 (DVCPro HD), and so are the sequence settings. On playback the ProRes titles composite fine over the P2 footage, but when I hit stop, the alpha areas in the titles show black instead of showing the underlying image. On export to H264 too, the clips do not composite together correctly; the titles have black under them instead of the underlying P2 footage.
Anyone shed any light on why it would work fine on preview playback but fail when the playhead is stopped and, more importantly, on export?
Thanks!
sCam

Hey,
Thanks for your reply. I guess I could do, but it's not really addressing the actual issue. There may be other instances in the future where we might want to use assets with an alpha channel where dynamic link would not be possible. It would be good to know how this can be addressed, or if there is some inherant problem with Premiere's compositing system.
Cheers, sCam

Prores 4444 Problems

Hi there,
I'm digitizing video from a 4:4:4 HDSR through an AJA Kona 3 card (ver 6.0.3) to Final Cut trying to create ProRes 4444 files. However when I look at these files on the scopes my black level does not sit at 0 but rather it seems to add a setup to 7.5. My white levels also seem to have dropped. This shows up on the FCP scopes and on outboard calibrated scopes (back out through the Kona card).
I've tried the same material with various other compressions (10 bit, Prores 422, etc) and all of those show the blacks at 0. As soon as I use ProRes 4444 the levels are raised. I've tried using Millions of Colors and Millions of Colors+ (although I don't need the Alpha channel) and I've turned the Gamma Correction off.
Is there anything else I could be missing? Is this just what ProRes 444 does? I can't find much documentation on this subject. Thanks so much for any help.
Ryan

From the ProRes white paper:
• Apple ProRes 4444: The new Apple ProRes 4444 codec preserves motion image sequences originating in either 4:4:4 RGB or 4:4:4 Y’CBCR color spaces. At its remarkably low data rate as compared to uncompressed 4:4:4 HD, Apple ProRes 4444 supports 12-bit pixel depth with an optional, mathematically lossless alpha channel for true 4:4:4:4 support. Apple ProRes 4444 preserves visual quality at the same high level as does Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), but for 4:4:4 image sources, which can carry the highest possible color detail.
Apple ProRes 4444 is ideal for next-generation video and the most pristine computer graphics sources for cinema-quality compositing. For projects that previously required the Animation codec, Apple ProRes 4444 is a modern replacement with real-time playback support in Final Cut Pro. Because color detail is preserved, Apple ProRes 4444 is ideal for color grading with 4:4:4 image sources.
• Apple ProRes 422 (HQ): Boasting widespread adoption across the video post- production industry, Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) offers visually lossless preservation of the highest-quality professional HD video that a (single-link) HD-SDI signal can carry. This codec supports full-width, 4:2:2 video sources at 10-bit pixel depths, while retaining its visually lossless characteristic through many generations of decoding and re-encoding.
Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) can be used both as an intermediate codec to accelerate workflows for complex, compressed video sources and as an affordable, high- performance alternative to uncompressed 4:2:2 video.
• Apple ProRes 422: Apple ProRes 422 offers nearly all the benefits of its big brother, Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), but at a significantly lower data rate. It provides visually lossless coding performance for the same full-width, 10-bit, 4:2:2 sequences as Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) with even better multistream RT editing performance.
• Apple ProRes 422 (LT): Like Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and Apple ProRes 422, the new Apple ProRes 422 (LT) codec supports full-width 10-bit video sequences, but at a target data rate even lower than these siblings. Apple ProRes 422 (LT) weighs in at 100 Mbps or less, depending on the particular video format. It balances incredible image quality with small file sizes, and is perfect for digital broadcast environments where storage capacity and bandwidth are often at a premium.
Apple ProRes 422 (LT) is ideal for live multi-camera and on-location productions where large amounts of footage are acquired to disk. The low data rate of Apple ProRes 422 (LT) also makes it an excellent choice for transcoding complex camera codecs like AVCHD.
• Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy): The third new member of the Apple ProRes family is Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy). This codec maintains HD data rates below 36 Mbps, yet like its higher-rate Apple ProRes 422 siblings, it supports full-frame, 10-bit, 4:2:2 video.
Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) is intended for draft-mode or preview uses where low data rates are required, yet full-resolution video is desired. It is the ideal format for use in offline editing workflows with Final Cut Server. The traditional offline-to-online workflow with Final Cut Pro has relied on the Offline RT codec, but today’s HD workflows demand offline video formats that support native frame size and aspect ratio. Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) supports full 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 resolutions, enabling full HD resolution while editing, and accurate representation of FCP motion effects from the creative stages through finishing.

Alpha Channel - Motion to FCP to QT to FCP

I wanted to make an animated logo with audio with an alpha channel that I could drop into any sequence.
I made the animation in Motion, and exported a QT movie with alpha. I imported the QT movie into Final Cut. So far so good. The alpha worked when I placed that clip over another one. I deleted the test clip - not the logo animation -- and added audio, then exported that as a QT with alpha.
Now, when I bring that QT movie back into FCP, there is no alpha channel! I'm sure I'm missing something simple, and would really appreciate any advice.

Avoid rendering inside FCP and use Prores 4444.

A movie file with Alpha channel works in Color??

I have files exported from Motion which contain Alpha channel.
What I like to do is to correct color of the files in Color 1.5.
When I import them into a sequence with two tracks in FCP, it appears correctly with the alpha channel.
But once I send it to Color, the files in the top layer (V2) doesn't show the bottom layer (V1).
It means the transparent parts will be all black.
I know ProRes 4444 supports alpha channel and I think the files are ProRes 4444 since they work correctly in Motion and FCP.
I read all the related threads here but no luck so far...I'd appreciate your help!

Shake. OR... Apple "SHAME".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shake_(software)
You might still be able to find it in University bookstores seriously marked down. It is a fantastic product. However, Apple seems to feel that its VFX market is best served by pillaging the Shake code and reinserting a dumbed-down version into FCP and Motion. They are wrong.
The app is still very much in use, very much appreciated.. very recently for completion of "District 9" -- http://www.fxguide.com/fxpodcast.html
You can do things like pull in your graded ProRes plus the original with alpha and copy the 4th channel into a new QT, so that the new version does what the codec should be doing.
jPo
jPo

More CS 5 - ProRes 4444 Alpha channel nonsense

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