Motion 4 Prores 4444 alpha not showing up in Motion answered

Hi,
I recently exported a Prores 4444 from Motion and when bringing it back in there was no transparency. I found the same issue in this discussion, and it was marked unanswered. It has been answered, but a clarification needs to be added and I was unable to reply to the discussion for whatever reason. A 1 pixel crop is the answer BUT it must be applied at the Media level and not the layer level.
http://discussions.info.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=10487207
Hope this helps the next poor soul who scratches their head and wonders why wont motion just work sometimes...

Yes, thanks - weird one, but I'll try and remember it...
Patrick

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CS5: ProRes 4444 Alpha issue rears it head again in a strange way

So here's a strange one: I've found that if the first frame of a composition is completely opaque (such as using a solid to fade from black) then any QT Movie rendered with ProRes 4444 + Alpha will not include an alpha channel. I've replicated it on multiple machines and triple checked my MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCS5.xml to ensure that it's correct. Here's the steps to recreate this:
create a new comp (Project bit depth = 16bpc)
create a new solid with the same dimensions as the comp
at Frame 0 create a keyframe for the Solid's opacity (Keep it at 100%)
move down 5 frames in the comp and create a new keyframe by setting the Solid's opacity to 0%
set the work area to 1 second
Render a movie using ProRes 4444 RBG+Alpha
The resulting movie will have no Alpha channel. If you watch the movie being rendered with Caps Lock off and 'Toggle Transparency Grid' active, then you can see the alpha channel while the render is going. If you render using Animation Compression RGB+Alpha, it will be correct. You can also replace the solid with footage as long as the first frame of the rendered comp is completely opaque and the issue is still there. Move the solid or footage down in the time line 1 frame so the first frame of the comp has a transparent alpha channel, then the movie rendered from that will be correct. This has only been tested and confirmed on the Mac and only CS5. If anyone can test and confirm the PC CS5 and Mac & PC CS5.5 it would be greatly appreciated.

You've found a bug. I'm not sure where the problem is. If I render out an image sequence or an Animation Codec file, then drop it in Media Encoder or Compressor to render a ProRez 444 with alpha channel I occasionally get the bug. You can't tell anything from the Quicktime Player but you can see the error in AE.
I discovered that if you put one even partially transparent pixel anywhere in the frame the alpha renders perfectly, but as you pointed out, when the first frame or few frames have a 0 alpha value the renders are funky. I just don't know if it's AE's problem, Adobe's problem, or an Apple problem because I can break it in compressor or Media Encoder or I can make it work in either.
I'd file a bug.

More CS 5 - ProRes 4444 Alpha channel nonsense

Hi:
Quicktimes I render out of After Effects CS 5 using the ProRes 4444 codec are tagged as having an alpha channel even though my settings in the Output Module are RGB and Trillions of Colors. NOT RGB + Alpha and Trillions of Colors+. It doesn't matter whether my project is 8 bit or 16 bit.
When I bring such movies back into AE it shows them as having an alpha channel (Trillions of Colors+). If I do a Get Info in QT player it shows Millions of Colors+, and FCP shows them as having an alpha, too.
I just upgraded to Snow Leopard 10.6.8 (figured it was safe after two years) and in the process switched full time to CS 5 (I only used it in the past to open other's projects). I never had these issues with CS4. I have not installed any AJA codecs into this new OS (clean install over wiped HD).
This appears to be the opposite of the problem most have been having, which is AE won't generate an alpha in ProRes 4444 without moving codecs and other nonsense.
The reason this is a problem is because when I bring these Quicktimes with faux alphas into FCP for editing I can't export a reference movie. FCP rewrites the whole timeline.
Haven't these CS 5/ProRes 4444 codec/Alpha channel issues been going on for over a year? Do I have to buy CS 5.5 to get this to work correctly?
Thanks.
Shawn Marshall
Marshall Arts Motion Graphics

PR422HQ is way overkill for 99% of the video and film producers in the world. It's there for a specific elite of the entertainment biz, those who work in 4k on 64bit systems, I guess, that' ain't me! It's one of those "if you have to ask, you can't use it" sort of things. Anyone who uses the advanced features of the ProRes family knows why. That's the theory. In my practical experience over on the FCP forum at Apple, 99% of those using ProResHQ believe they are improving their original footage.
Apple ProRes 4444
The Apple ProRes 4444 codec offers the utmost possible quality for 4:4:4 sources and for workflows involving alpha channels. It includes the following features:
Full-resolution, mastering-quality 4:4:4:4 RGBA color (an online-quality codec for editing and finishing 4:4:4 material, such as that originating from Sony HDCAM SR or digital cinema cameras such as RED ONE, Thomson Viper FilmStream, and Panavision Genesis cameras). The R, G, and B channels are lightly compressed, with an emphasis on being perceptually indistinguishable from the original material.
Lossless alpha channel with real-time playback
High-quality solution for storing and exchanging motion graphics and composites
For 4:4:4 sources, a data rate that is roughly 50 percent higher than the data rate of Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Direct encoding of, and decoding to, RGB pixel formats
Support for any resolution, including SD, HD, 2K, 4K, and other resolutions
A Gamma Correction setting in the codec’s advanced compression settings pane, which allows you to disable the 1.8 to 2.2 gamma adjustment that can occur if RGB material at 2.2 gamma is misinterpreted as 1.8. This setting is also available with the Apple ProRes 422 codec.
Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
The Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) codec offers the utmost possible quality for 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 sources (without an alpha channel) and provides the following:
Target data rate of approximately 220 Mbps (1920 x 1080 at 60i)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422
Apple ProRes 422
The Apple ProRes 422 codec provides the following:
Target data rate of approximately 145 Mbps (1920 x 1080 at 60i)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422 (LT)
Apple ProRes 422 (LT)
The Apple ProRes 422 (LT) codec provides the following:
Roughly 70 percent of the data rate of Apple ProRes 422 (thus, smaller file sizes than Apple ProRes 422)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy)
Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy)
The Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) codec is intended for use in offline workflows and provides the following:
Roughly 30 percent of the data rate of Apple ProRes 422
High-quality offline editing at the original frame size, frame rate, and aspect ratio
High-quality edit proxy for Final Cut Server
The Apple ProRes family of codecs provides these advantages:
Quality indistinguishable from that of the most pristine sources: Maintains superb quality even after multiple encoding/decoding generations.
Mastering-quality 4:4:4:4 RGBA: Provides a lossless alpha channel with real-time playback (Apple ProRes 4444 only). Mastering-quality 4:4:4 Y′CBCRcolor and 4:2:2 Y′CBCR color are also available.
The quality of uncompressed HD at data and storage rates lower than those of uncompressed SD: Provides real-time editing performance comparable to or better than that of any other HD codecs in Final Cut Pro.
Apple ProRes encoding at any frame size—SD, HD, 2K, 4K, or other: Apple ProRes codecs can also be encoded into nonstandard frame sizes, but nonstandard frame sizes are not supported for real-time playback in Final Cut Pro.
Variable bit rate (VBR) encoding: “Smart” encoding analyzes the image. Efficiency is increased because excess bits are not wasted on simple frames.
10-bit sample depth: Preserves subtle gradients of 10-bit sources (sunsets, graphics, and the like) with no visible banding artifacts. When you import a file using an Apple ProRes codec, you don’t have to first determine whether the file is an 8-bit or 10-bit file. Apple ProRes codecs always preserve the bit depth of your original source files.
I-frame–only (intraframe) encoding: Ensures consistent quality in every frame, with no artifacts from complex motion, and speeds up editing.
Fast encoding and decoding: Delivers high-quality, real-time playback and faster rendering times.
Equipment affordability: Because of low bit rates, you can edit more streams with more real-time effects on slower drives, or have more users accessing the same media over shared storage devices.
Workflow options for any video format that does not have native Final Cut Pro support: The Apple ProRes format provides an effective workflow for projects involving multiple acquisition formats when you want to standardize on a single codec.
Better rendering for native editing: Can be used to render long-GOP MPEG-2 formats (such as HDV and XDCAM HD) to speed up editing and avoid MPEG-2 reencoding artifacts before output.

ProRes 4444 assets not compositing properly on export

Hey there!
Just trying Premiere out on my first project since jumping ship from FCP. All great thus far, but I'm having an issue with some ProRes assets which have an alpha channel. They're some animated titles which were made in AE, which are supposed to sit on top of the live action footage. The live action footage is P2 (DVCPro HD), and so are the sequence settings. On playback the ProRes titles composite fine over the P2 footage, but when I hit stop, the alpha areas in the titles show black instead of showing the underlying image. On export to H264 too, the clips do not composite together correctly; the titles have black under them instead of the underlying P2 footage.
Anyone shed any light on why it would work fine on preview playback but fail when the playhead is stopped and, more importantly, on export?
Thanks!
sCam

Hey,
Thanks for your reply. I guess I could do, but it's not really addressing the actual issue. There may be other instances in the future where we might want to use assets with an alpha channel where dynamic link would not be possible. It would be good to know how this can be addressed, or if there is some inherant problem with Premiere's compositing system.
Cheers, sCam

Motion will not show alpha in my 4444 file, I'm frustrated by motion....

The thing is, it seems to work on my MBP, but when opening the same project on my big MacPro, with ATI 4870 CARD, the alpha will not work at all. I get an almost black background.
No matter how I try the settings for file, it will never show me transparency/alpha. But it does it in the small preview thumbnail, but not in my canvas.
So what is wrong with motion and my ATI Radeon 4870 card....
sincerely Helge

I found the bug....!!!!
My ProRes 4444 file only shows alpha/tranparency when canvas is set to best and NOT normal...!
When watching the alpha channel, all looks good in best mode, but when switching to normal, it all goes white....!
sincerely Helge
But what is strange, this happens on to MacPros and not on my MacBookPro....
This motion program is really frustrating..... please come with a new version soon!!!!

I really need some After Effects Logic regarding ProRes 4444

Regardinf ProRes 4444
I cant unterstand why it is so difficult to make this work properly.
It used to be that we could NOT select Trillions of Colors because they were grayed out.
Thus giving us 16 Bit per channel...
Then we had a fix althoug manual at first, we could then select 16 bit per channel...
Now we have a NEW problem.... And it is exactly opposite.
Now -- We cannot select Millions of colors thus 8 bit per channel.
I have a project in 8 Bit and I want to render it to ProRes 4444 but NOT in 16 bit per channel but with 8 bit per channel.
I cant do that as the Millions of colors (and Millions of Colors+) are grayed out...
I have a really hard time understanding this never ending problem. How hard can it be... Or am I the one totally missing the obvious...
BTW - Apples Compressor and Quicktime 7, correctly outputs 8 bit per channel incl. Alpha thus achieving 32 Bit (8 bit per channel)
Why cant after effects...
To the developers in case you are here ,-)
If the AE project is 8 bit per channel we should be able to render 8 bit per channel ProRes4444
If the AE project is 16 bit per channel we should be able to render 16 bit per channel ProRes4444
Thanks for any clarification

Rick Gerard wrote:
Apple Pro Rez 444 is a 12 bit codec. It always encodes at 12 bit. You can't force Pro-Rez 4444 to any other bit depth. The behavior in CS5.5 is correct and makes sense.
FYI, ProRez 422 HQ is a 10 bit codec. It won't encode at anything else. Changing the color depth settings in the Output Module won't change the way the codec works.
Here's a link to the ProRez white paper.
Hi Rick,
thanks for chiming in.
I have already read that paper many times. Perhaps I am just not smart enough.
When you say that it always encodes in 12bit... Does that mean that if I have a 16 Bit per channel Image Sequence that it would truncate the 4 upper bits ?
Here is the description of Apple's Compressor ProRes 4444 Setting. Indicating 32 bit which would be 8 bit per channel alpha included...
Be really nice if you could explaing that to me
Name: Apple ProRes 4444
Description: QuickTime movie with Apple ProRes 4444 (with Alpha) and audio pass-through
File Extension: mov
Estimated size: unknown
Audio: multi-track pass-through
Video Encoder
          Width: (100% of source)
          Height: (100% of source)
          Pixel aspect ratio: Default
          Crop: None
          Padding: None
          Frame rate: (100% of source)
          Frame Controls: Automatically selected: Off
          Codec Type: Apple ProRes 4444
          Multi-pass: Off, frame reorder: Off
          Automatic gamma correction
Progressive
          Pixel depth: 32
          Spatial quality: 75
          Min. Spatial quality: 0
          Temporal quality: 0
          Min. temporal quality: 0
Compatible with Mac

Snow Leopard Prores 4444 Gamma Shift Nightmare

I've run into a nightmare with significant gamma shifts wrecking a lot of work we're trying to export using the Prores codec and After Effects CS3 (and CS4).
I found this supposed fix, but it has not solved my problems: http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2009/12/prores-4444-colors-and-gamma-s.html
I appended suggested xml edit to the last line before </MediaCoreQT...> in both CS3 & CS4 files. Same infuriating darker gamma result after both edits.
Scenario: large targa sequence we've been working on for months, established pipeline of compiling the targas in AFXCS3 (OSX 10.5.8), Project Settings/Color Settings/Working Space = none, exporting sequence as Prores 4444, gamma set to automatic. Colour matched targas perfectly.
Now we're trying to use new Macpros we've bought specifically for this job that are run up as 10.6.2. Prores 4444 compiles are now coming out much darker! I've tried the XML edit (both CS3 & CS4), adjusting system gamma to 1.8 from new 10.6 default of 2.2, adjusting legacy gamma setting in project settings, etc... The colour is wrecked!! WTF?!?!?
Really don't want to have to revert to "Animation" settings. Deadline looms. Any help would be enormously appreciated!

I Think (but dont know) that I have found an explanation to this problem.
It has to do with colorsync on OS X (cant talk windows as I dont use that)
Scenario
1) Encode any non-ProRes 4444-source to ProRes 4444 using Compressor(Only encoder able to provide accurate result)
2) Be sure so DISABLE - Final Cut Studio color compatibility in the QT7 Player Preferences
3) Open source.MOV and new output.MOV in Quicktime7 -> Set view of both to half size (So you have overview) and place them next to each other
They should look/be identical
sometimes placing them next to each other will lead you to believe that they are different. If so, place them on top of each other and flip back and forth via the Window menu to make sure that both movies are indeed identical-looking.
4) Open OS X System Preferences
5) Click 'Displays' and select the color tab
Now, toggle through various color profiles. You SHOULD see the colors adapt on BOTH movies.
Create new AE Project and make sure that your Project is set to NOT color-manage your workflow
6) Create new AE composition and drag the Compressor-created ProRes 4444.MOV into it.
7) Add to render queue and select the ProRes 4444 as output.
8) Render out.
9) Open Compressor-created ProRes 4444.MOV and new AE-created ProRes 4444.MOV in Quicktime7 -> Set view of both to half size (So you have overview) and place them next to each other
10) They should look identical but they dont.
11) Open OS X System Preferences (in case you closed it)
12) Click 'Displays' and select the color tab
Now, toggle through various color profiles. You SHOULD see the colors adapt on BOTH movies.
They DONT. They ONLY adapt in the Compressor-created ProRes 4444.MOV not in the AE-created ProRes 4444.MOV
And that even though color-mangement has been turned off.
Turning color-managemen ON will have no different effect that leaving it off. The AE created movie(Color Management set to OFF) WILL not allow being color synced in OS X.
The Expected behavior IS:
1) when color management is set to OFF in the AE project settings and output module that the AE-Created movie would adapt to any color-profile change made within the OS X System Preference, COLOR Panel.
2) when color management is set to ON in the AE project settings and output module that the AE-Created movie would NOT adapt to any color-profile change made within the OS X System Preference, COLOR Panel.
As of NOW... There are no differences between above.
I hope this helps to solve this nuisance !!!
If I have missed something VERY obvious then please disregard my post and tell me what I seeing incorrectly !!!
PS - ON my computer - this last part of my post looks ridiculously small and that even though I have done NO font editing.
I find that posting and editing in this forum is as hard as getting Adobe products to encode correctly

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