Nikon NEF -- Uncompressed versus Lossless Compressed

Hi,
When processing Nikon NEF files in LR 4.1, will there be any difference between how LR handles Uncompressed files versus Lossless Compressed files? It is my impression that Lossless Compressed is just that... no loss of anything due to compression.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thank you.
John

I do too, which I probably should have mentioned in my original post. The topic came up in a conversation over lunch with a photographer-friend who uses Canon RAW and wondered how there could be compression without loss. That's what prompted my post.
John

Similar Messages

Lightroom support for Nikon lossless-compressed NEFs

Hi,
I shoot in NEF (12-bit, no compression) with a Nikon D200.
I then edit the files with Nikon Capture NX2, and, doing so, I save them as lossless compressed NEF.
I then finish editing in View NX2, where I further add geotagging and star rating.
I would like to import the NEF images straight into Lightroom 3.
My need is only to use the database and slideshow functions of Lr3; I understand and accept that, if I want to re-edit the image, I must use Capture again.
ONLY IN THE CASE I wanted to individually proceed editing in Lr3, I accept the need to extract the embedded jpeg and edit it in Lr3, ending up with two separate images.
In principle, I do not want to duplicate all my images saving them twice also as jpeg.
If I try now to import my lossless-compressed NEFs in Lr3.2, during import preview I can positively see the images, with editing applied. But after import, sometimes it shows an image composed solely by "noise", and sometimes it shows the image, but without any editing. If I open the individual image view, it always says "An error has occurred in elaboration of the image".
For testing, I also tried to save the edited image as NEF non-compressed and import it; I do not obtain the "noise" images any more, but the images are shown in the original version, without editing.
Only if I try to import the original images, it works.
I do not understand such a strange behaviour, since if I use a much simpler program like ExifPro v1.1.11, everything works fine and also the LL-c NEFs are correctly shown, with edits.
I also tried the NXTooey plugin by Rob Cole, but I end up duplicating my images as jpegs, and I do not want it (either I do not use it correctly?).
Thanks for your help
Danilo

Thank you for your prompt answers
@ Lee
I can understand that the philosophy of Lr wants it to be a program for editing, and not merely for viewing - but, indeed, it is not ONLY an edit program (and for editing it has some features I like very much, and it is the reason why I would like to keep using it): it has also the database features, the slideshow, etc., so I cannot understand the intention to deliberately keep such a limitation: to me, such an option could be useful to many users, in many scenarios apart from editing.
The feature could be offered as an optional setting for the user (use internal render - use embedded jpeg), so it is an enlargement of the capabilities of the program, and not a limitation.
Moreover, in my understanding, it is not true that the edited raw images contain only the metadata relative to the editing infos: they certainly contain also an embedded jpeg (or tiff) of the edited image, ready to be extracted.
Infact, programs like ExifPro show the image at 100% quality (not a thumbnail) with editing applied, and they are extremely fast. It is not possible that they have the capability:
1) to fully understand the proprietary matadata - part of them are not even disclosed out of Nikon
2) to apply them on the fly, always and without any misunderstanding
3) perform such an heavy elaboration 10 to 20 times faster than Capture or Lr
So,they instead certainly look into the file for an area where they know it is embedded the edited jpeg, ready and done.
And this could be easily done in the same way also by Lr with minimal effort.
Of course, I accept that, if I want to continue editing in Lr, (since it cannot understand the proprietary metadata), the embedded edited jpeg is extracted and saved, and from now on, I have two separate files that are no more in sincrony with editing.
@ Rob
The firmware of the D200 unfortunately does not have the option to save in NEF Lossless-compressed: either you save in NEF NON-compressed (12-bit),
or you save in NEF LOSSY-compressed (apart from the options of saving in Jpeg)
And so I do not want to save in LOSSY since I would lose infos.
Yes I know that the more recent cameras have the option to save Lossless, and I would always use it indeed, if I had.
Given that, I agree with you for what you say in the second part of your answer.
But I would like to make the temptative anyway: I like very much Lr, it is a program full of options and opportunities (among them, the ability to edit
in a powerful and fast way - who knows if I will abandon Capture in the future and adopt LR for some editings, and for others no)
So: +1 vote: Lightroom option for persistent display of embedded jpeg (could it be offered as an option, or a flag to be checked in the settings??), and
optional extraction for editing.
And I will submit the "noise" phenomenon as a bug - Now I only have to find how to do it...
Thank you again
Danilo

Cannot import lossless compressed RAW from Nikon D7100 purchased July 2014 into up-to-date Lightroom 5.5. Help!

I have looked all over the web for this answer, but have failed to find it. I have a new Nikon D7100. I took photos with it using the lossless compressed RAW format. I transferred the files on my PC using Nikon Transfer. However, Lightroom 5.5. (on the same PC) will not import the files from their folder--like it does for JPEG files. Lightroom says my version is up-to-date. Help!

No plug-in is needed to import RAW files from a Nikon D7100 to LR5.
However, if you have used certain versions of Nikon software to move the photos from the camera to a hard disk, then this may be interfering, and causing LR to not recognize the photos. The solution is to import directly from the camera card to Lightroom (if the photos are still on the camera card), or if not try http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/fix_corrupted_nef.html

How does lightroom 4 deal with lossless compressed raw files

how does lightroom 4 deal with lossless compressed raw files

Ok, sorry about the vague question. My concern is centered around a new camera purchase ( Nikon D810 ) which produces huge files. I shoot in RAW and never use lossless compression only uncompressed RAW because of my conservative nature . But now it looks like I will be using Lossless compressed to help deal with the file size. So the question was based on fears of data lost. Thanks for the replies, and they confirm what I already suspected. So now I can feel confident using lossless compression.
Thanks

Workflow advice please -- NEF, DNG or NEG compressed

Thanks to kgelner and others I see that the DNG file format is not the 'universal' format that I thought it was. It still takes camera specific knowledge to develop a DNG file.
DNG does have two clear advantages over NEF or CR2 files--Adobe has provided a specification for where to embedd metadata into a DNG file. Something that Canon and Nikon don't provide for their RAW files. Aperture makes this advantage seem insignificant since it keeps its metadata in the internal database--sending out RAW files to clients or coworkers doesn't seem like something I want make part of my workflow.
The one advantage left to the DNG file for a committed Aperture user might be the fact that DNG supports a lossless compression. When I use this option on my D2x files they shrink from about 19Mb to 10~11Mb. A big storage advantage, it also speeds up hard-drive access time for loading files on my system! This does require an extra processing step before importing.
Nikon has a compressed NEF option that they say: "has almost no efffect on image quality." That doesn't sound lossless to me, but it does double the number of images you can fit on a CF card.
BIG QUESTION: Is there any reason to belive that Aperture will develop a better quality image if it begins with a NEF file rather than a DNG? Of course I can shoot a bunch of test images and compare for hours (still may do that) but that doesn't always reveal the truth either. (Some test images may compress well other important images shot later may compress badly.)
I am eager to see what the collective brain has to say to this.

BIG QUESTION: Is there any reason to belive that Aperture will develop a better quality image if it begins with a NEF file rather than a DNG?< </div>
No reason to speculate on or to wait for Apple to do anything.
Use the format you want to use, find an application that suits your needs, might not be Aperture.
bogiesan

Nikon NEF workflow ?

Hi all,
Just a casual user here with a couple of questions RE: Nikon NEF (from my D3100) and how best to use it in LR.
I understand that the Develop module uses different ways of rendering previews than other modules.
Note: this is as per
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/358017?tstart=30
although the TECHNOTES link doesn't go anywhere..
My problem is that I can't get the look in Develop to export properly! I tweaked the NEF directly and
tried to EXPORT the pic in DEVELOP as a simple jpg, but the jagged
problem I see in all modules except DEVELOP is still there, I tried importing the jpg back in but it still looks terrible
in Library (it's a long exposure of a lake at night, the shades of blue that look great in DEV look terrible in anything else).
When I export, shouldn't it also include the settings + look that I see in DEV so that the resulting export looks exactly the same
I tried making the NEF a DNG first, but even after replicating the tweaks I had done to the NEF, I couldn't get it
to look quite the same (sounds obvious to me since LR treats it as two completely different original files).
Does anyone have a solid workflow for NEF's ? Should I just make them DNG's from the beginning, then import into
LR and go from there ?
Cheers for any help..
Benny.

Benny,
Your problem isn't one of DNG versus NEF. They are treated identically by Lightroom.
Yes, exporting to jpeg from a modified nef file should produce an image that looks pretty darn similar to what you see in the Develop module. Unless, of course, you have specified parameters in the Export dialogue that mess up the exported image. Also, you may see differences if you look at the exported image with an non-colour-managed viewer of some sort.
So, what parameters are you specifying when you do your export? List them all, off of the Export dialogue, or better yet, take a screen shot of the dialogue and post that here.
Hal

What is the best lossless compression for video?

I have a large amount of captured video, which is saved in uncompressed format.
I want to archive this video and I need to figure out what the best compression choice is.
It's video only and I want the archived materials to be compressed as losslessly as possible and as small as possible. Losslessness is more important than size. The original material was captured in FCP from a video camera using Firewire. It is NTCS DV.
Multiple angles of this source material were edited in FCP and rendered to make the final, uncompressed files. Those are what I need to compress and archive.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

There is no such thing as lossless compression.
This is not really true. There are many ways to compress - just google "compression algorithms" and you'll find some. Two basic schemes are either lossless or lossy. Lossless seeks to remove redundant or repetitive information, this is like Run Length Encoding or LZW encoding. Lossy throws away information that is generally "not perceived". JPEG, MPEG, H.264, DV are examples of lossy compression.
YUV "lossless" is 4:2:2 and is considered uncompressed, yet it takes up less space than RGB 4:4:4 encoding. Simply zipping the file compresses it (uncompressed codecs squeeze better, but DV does compress, indicating redundant information) - a TIFF sequence might have run length encoding or LZW. Both are lossless.
To get back to the question, Patrick:Losslessness is more important than size.
H.264 is a fantastic compression - it is, however, FAR from lossless AND it is not directly editable. You'd need to convert it back to an editable format, ensuring even more loss. Not within the parameters of your desired solution...
Patrick

I re-downloaded my Photoshop recently and Adobe Bridge no longer displays my Nikon NEF files and Camera Raw will not open them.

I re-downloaded my Photoshop recently and Adobe Bridge no longer displays my Nikon NEF files and Camera Raw will not open them. I get a message saying that Camera Raw does not support my camera type but it always has in the past. The bridge no longer shows the picture view of my NEF files. These are Nikon NEF files from the Nikon 5100 DSLR camera. How do I fix this?

I re-downloaded my Photoshop recently and Adobe Bridge no longer displays my Nikon NEF files and Camera Raw will not open them. I get a message saying that Camera Raw does not support my camera type but it always has in the past.
When you re-installed Photoshop, you also re-installed the version of Camera Raw which shipped with Photoshop - in other words you reverted to an older version of Camera Raw which does not support the D5100.
Camera Raw plug-in | Supported cameras
The D5100 was first supported in Camera Raw version 6.4.
In Photoshop, click Help > Updates to update Camera Raw.

Lighroom and Nikon NEF files

I have some questions about Lightroom's handling of Nikon NEF files, specifically the parts of the NEF files that Nikon has decided it is a brilliant idea to encrypt. I am using a Nikon D200.
How does Lightroom handle white balance in a NEF file? Has Adobe licensed the "mini-SDK" from Nikon, is the white balance estimated from the image data, or how is this done?
And what about the sharpening (and other data?) - how does Lightroom handle that? Is it always the same (by camera)? Can the default settings be customized?
I am also interested in knowing whether using NEF+JPEG enables Lightroom to use more of the image metadata, as white balance/etc is not encrypted in the JPEG file. Will using NEF+JPEG give me the in-camera settings for the data that is encrypted in the NEF file? I'd be happy to shoot RAW+JPEG with a small JPEG if it helps Lightroom with the in-camera settings.

To answer your question, yes, Adobe has licensed the mini-SDK from Nikon in order to get at the encrypted white balance info. Nearly everything else is encrypted and inaccessible and can only be accessed by Nikon software.
Ironically, all this has done is push me almost 100% in favour of DNG.
Shooting NEF+JPEG will not get you anything more, in terms of more available data. Technically a NEF image will have an associated in-camera preview that Lightroom replaces with its own previews (no one wants to see the actual raw data, which hardly looks like an image). Apparently there is a limitation with Lightroom such that identically named image files differing only in extension will not be imported properly, anyway. Check the archives of this forum.
The in-camera settings in the file are not useful for you unless you use Nikon imaging software.
I've pretty much decided the following:
- Shoot only raw, and let your camera and Lightroom generate the previews you need at the time.
- Create a camera profile for importing those raw files. Every camera responds a little differently.
- Either keep the raw files or convert to DNG for archival purposes. The arguments for and against this are easy to find elsewhere on these forums and on the web.
If you need to be able to tweak your NEF images on the computer as if you were tweaking the camera controls /before/ taking the shot, you have to use Nikon software. I personally see little value in this, but your kilometreage will vary.

Photoshop CS4 will not open Nikon (NEF) raw files.

I recently tried CS6 Suite. Trial was over and I went back to Photoshop CS4. However, it would not open Nikon (NEF) raw files. I uninstalled and re-installed the PS CS4. This did not fix the problem. Can anyone help?
Thanks,
Derrick

NEF files from which Nikon camera?

No thumbnails for Nikon NEF files in finder

After upgrading to Tiger 10.4.2, Nikon NEF files imported through Image Capture no longer show a thumbnail image in the finder. The icon is a generic Preview document with RAW written on it.
I also have an issue when I go to change the default application used to open these files. In the info window I change the "open with" application and then select change all . . . at this point I get the confirmation window, click continue, the confirmation box closes and the file reverts back to the original Preview icon. Perhaps these two issues are related?
Anyone have an idea how to remedy these?

I have a Nikon D50 nef on my desktop. Double-clicking on it opens Photoshop, which launches Adobe Camera Raw. If you get that far and can make adjustments in the ACR panel, you are fine. That's what opens first.
Then you click "Open" in ACR and your nef opens in Photoshop and the document tab on top gives the .nef extension. You make your edits there, but if you close Photoshop, you won't save it as nef, it won't be in the Save file list. You save it as psd for example and close Photoshop.
You now have a nef with develop settings on your desktop and the psd you saved out of Photoshop.
All perfectly normal as J.J. said, Photoshop will edit the nef file, but it will be saved in a format other than nef.
Gene

Photoshop CC with CS3 will not open Nikon NEF files for the D610.[was:CC]

Photoshop CC with CS3 will not open Nikon NEF files for the D610. Is there a fix for this? Fast Eddy

I assume you're running Photoshop CC (not sure what you mean by "with CS3" unless that's the version you upgraded to CC from)
Download Camera Raw 8.3RC
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/cameraraw8-3-cc/?tabID=details#tabTop

Lossless compression of dng files like in Lightroom?

Lightroom losslessly compresses DNG files to half their size, which is wonderful. Is there any way to get Aperture to do this?

I remember seeing a plug-in to call the DNG converter from Aperture, but I think it never leaved the beta phase.
Anyway, using Adobe's converter is no big deal, and it's free.

Cannot see Raw Nikon NEF images in finder windows

I had a problem with my Macbook pro so I had to re-install the operating system, which is Leopard.
Now I can't see the my Nikon NEF images in the finder windows, they only show the jpeg pictures.
I remember this was a problem over a year ago and somehow I resolved it, but I can 't remember how. I'm doing the usual thing such as click VIEW - OPTIONS - ALWAYS OPEN IN ICON VIEW - but this does not seem to work.
Can anyone remind me what to do?

The issue should only occur if you shoot raw. Currently OS X can only display/read certain RAW camera formats. These are OS level, meaning iPhoto, Preview, Mail, Aperture and others are effected. However adobe products are different because they use Adobe Camera RAW.
I would expect JPEGs TIFFs and PSDs, both thumbnails and files, to view fine. RAW files will not view from the D300, but the D200 is supported.
There is no way of knowing when support for the (not-so-)new files will be available. Rumor has it it will be 10.5.2, but only Apple knows that. You can head on over to the Aperture forum and read to see if some have work-arounds.

Camera Raw 5.5 Crashes on Nikon NEF, 5.4 Does Not

I was successfully running the trial version of Photoshop Elements 7 with 5.4 of the raw file filter. I purchased the Premiere/Photoshop Elements 7 bundle, uninstalled the trial, and installed both full versions.
I also downloaded Camera Raw 5.5 and installed it.
With 5.5 I would receive "Adobe Photoshop Elements (editor) has stopped working" when opening a Nikon NEF file, and Elements would abort. Both x64 and x32 versions of the Camera_raw.8bi file would cause the same problem.
I reinstalled 5.4 and it worked fine.
Windows Vista Ultimate x64 Service Pack 1
Inten Core2 Quad Q6600
8GM memory
Asus P5B
Nikon D90

Are you sure that you only have one copy of the plug-in installed in the install directory at a time?
Eric

Nikon NEF -- Uncompressed versus Lossless Compressed

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