Pre/Post Fader Metering. Stumped...

I'm recording some test tones into Logic so that when I go to another studio next week I can calibrate the gain controls on the other studio's mixing board to be the same as mine (we have the same boards, BTW).
Although I normally have pan law set to -3dB compensated, I set the pan law to 0dB to record my test tones.
After recording the tones, I switched back to -3dB compensated and noticed the following behavior of the audio channel's meters which I can't understand. I've never been very good at this whole level thing, so I'm hoping someone can 'splain it to me. Here's the behavior:
Again, with pan law set to -3dB compensated...
On the left is my audio channel 1 showing my test tone playing back from Logic, metering set to post-fade. Note the peak level (3.4 dB) as well as the visual level of the LED ladder on the meter. Now, compare that to the image on the right, which is the same audio channel 1, but with metering switched to pre-fade. You can see that the peak level is now displayed as 3 dB hotter (6.4 dB), but the LED ladder displays a lower level.
Furthermore, it's apparently necessary to manually clear the overload indicators to see an updated numerical display after switching from post-fade to pre-fade metering. If this is not done, then when switching to pre-fade metering, the meter's LED ladder display appears to drop but the numerical readout doesn't change (stays at 3.4 dB). This is really confusing to me.
So I'm stumped. It's probably obvious, but still, I'm stumped. Can anyone explain this behavior?
-=iS=-

Hi iSchwartz,
<quote>o I think I get it now... When the pan is dead center, I'm seeing the peak level of -6.4. When panned left, the meter rises to -3.4, and I guess I'm witnessing the "compensated" part of the panning law. Is that right?</quote>
Yes indeed that is the compensation.This comes from the analog days when one would pan dead center,and end up having to reduce the level of the signal by about 3dB,when mixing especially.This only occurred on certain consoles,I cannot tell you which ones,I don't remember.I am glad Logic has this feature,as mixing with and without it creates very different results.It depends on what analog console you were brought up with,which way you would like the panning law to behave like.
It would be interesting to see how the compensation alters the levels throughout the panorama,but that would take a lot of time to test out.Maybe when I have some spare time I'll do some basics like dead center, -10,+10,etc... and see what the levels come out to be.
Cheers,
noeqplease

Similar Messages

Pre-fader vs. post-fader metering

I generally avoid any internal clipping on my virtual instruments by making use of logic's pre-fader metering option, is this really necessary?
Which is best, mix post fader and forget about internal levels of plug-ins, instruments etc. or always make sure there is no internal clipping?
What are the results really when making sure there is no post or pre fader clipping?

Chance Harper wrote:
I did a quick experiment to see what the result would be if I overloaded or pushed the internal volume of a plug-in but made sure the output channel wasn't clipping VS. a plug-in that got leveled pre and post.
I used only a drum kit from battery 3 with a simple riff. Pushed the plug-ins overall volume to +6.0dB and then made sure my post fader level wasn't clipping, both of them then got mastered using ozone 4.
Both of the tracks reached the same RMS level, neither of the two sounded louder than the other.
The one I pushed up in the plug-in sounded a bit squashed and not as clear or pure as the one that considered the pre and post fader metering. The drums sounded way more defined and clear when ensuring both pre-and post metering wasn't clipping.
It does seem that by ensuring none of your virtual stuff clips internally you get purer sound.
Of course I am sure you could still get a great sound if you internally only pushed it over by 2dBs. Still think it's best though to mix pre and post as a rule. Any comments?
Message was edited by: Chance Harper
Message was edited by: Chance Harper
Message was edited by: Chance Harper
again, i would agree with BeeJay's original reply to the original post. it's not good practice to let internal levels fly out of control and there's really no good reason to. and i would also agree that keeping levels lower result in better quality mixes.

PRE POST FADER Question.....

I have a lead vocal sent via a send, to an AUX with a delay on it. I muted the lead vocal track, but am still hearing the echo from the delay AUX track. I checked, and it is set to POST fader. So this shouldn't happen.
I have just noticed something while writing this.
The track in question is a mono track, with the SEND on it sent to the AUX as stated.
I have other tracks sent to the Aux with the delay, and when they are muted, they do NOT come through the delay. The DIFFERENCE is, those are AUX tracks.
So....6 background mono tracks whose output is set to say, BUS 1. AUX with BUSS one as an input, for all the backgrounds. That AUX has a SEND to the DELAY buss, and when it is muted, no sound comes out the delay, which is correct.
So it SEEMS that the fact that my LEAD vocal that I am having the problem with, is a mono track, set to the stereo out, with a send to the delay, and is NOT working properly. Hmmm...am I onto something here? Bug?
TH
Message was edited by: Tom Hartman1

Got it, I see, yes. My mistake was in thinking muting the BVX Aux would mute the send to the DEL Aux, because it's been a long day mixing and I was not thinking this out. Thanks for that!
Muting AUX tracks to mute groups of vocals make it easy to do stems, and in this case, it was a background vocal, but the ONLY background vocal that needed to have a delay.There were many other backing vocal tracks that you can't see here also assigned to that BVX AUX. It really shouldn't have been grouped at all with the rest of the backs in the first place. I would normally not have a send going to a delay on one individual track that was assigned to a group (bus) track like the BVX Aux. Normally the send to the delay would be on the AUX track. This was an unusual case, and I didn't route the "Ad Lib" track in a manner that makes sense. Way too long a day mixing;)
Thanks for clearing this up. Thought I was going crazy. Well, I kind of was...;)
Tom
Message was edited by: Tom Hartman1

Pre/ Post and Post pan colours

Hi,
This ain't exactly a show stopper, but..
In the mixer you can send the feeds as pre, post fader, or post pan.
These 3 options are supposed to change the colour of the send box.
Pre is green, post is blue, and post pan is supposed to be orange- but it's not. It is also blue.
As I said, not exactly worth getting too freaked about!

Well, there goes my 5 minutes of fame!
Thanks!

Levels and pre-fader metering

In the past I had always presumed the channel fader controlled the volume level of a softsynth. I know now that it obviously does not. It simply acts as a "faucet," so to speak. Meaning that increasing the fader level simply allows more of the synth's signal to pass.
So my question is this: Understanding that it is the instrument itself which is actually generating the signal (and consequetly the db's) should I keep all my faders at 0.00 on my audio instrument tracks and adjust the instrument levels instead when I mix? It would seem to make sense.
And in keeping with this method, as far as automation is concerned, would I be correct in assuming track volume should be automated via the instrument level?
I'm trying to keep all of this in the context of how it would be done in a studio with "real" instruments. Where the volume level is the volume level and if you want it louder you play harder or you turn up your amp. You want it softer you play your instrument softer.
I should add that this whole question/conundrum came up after I started recording with pre fader metering enabled and was quite surprised to see just how easy it is to clip a track (remembering of course that as long as no clipping is occuring at the master output I'm NOT actually clipping).

I don't know where all this "fader fear" is coming from.
In DSP terms, making something louder or quieter is simply a really simple DSP calculation. It doesn't matter whether you turn you softsynth down 3dB, or turn the fader down 3dB, the end result is exactly the same.
The faders are there for easy controlling of levels. It's why mixers were invented and designed this way.
I think these days someone reads a post on some esoteric audio forum about how their mix was so much better when they left the fader at 0dB in some obscure DAW back in the 90's, and translate that into "I must never use faders" or "I must never EQ" or "I must effectively work out my mix beforehand by my mic choice and positioning so all the signals magically combine into an artistic mix."
I'm trying to keep all of this in the context of how it would be done
in a studio with "real" instruments. Where the volume level is the
volume level and if you want it louder you play harder or you turn
up your amp.
You completely lost me here. Learning about gain staging is Elementary Audio Engineering Class 2 (the one afer the "what is a signal", and "what is a transducer").
You set the level of your recording device or mixer's input depending on the item you are recording, so the natural sound of whatever your source is corresponds to some nominal level for your recorder. It doesn't just magically happen on its own.
If you're recording an instrument that doesn't put out much sound level, you use the mic preamp to boost the signal to an appropriate recording level. And if you're recording Concorde taking off, you adjust your preamp, probably turning it down or padding the signal, again so it fits the range of your recorder.
Softsynths can put out a lot of level, and many preset designers don't pay much attention to volume levels in their patches. In addition, when you play a patch polyphonically, you're mixing together multiple signals (each of the notes you are playing) so you end up with higher levels still. It's good practice to pull down the output of the synth if it's too hot, but generally speaking, and avoiding getting into any "levels in Logic" complexities here, using the fader in Logic is exactly the same process.
Faders don't bite. Use 'em.

Pre Fader Metering Query...

Hello to all,
I've been following a couple of threads recently and the topic of Pre Fader Metering has come up in regards to the level of the final stereo Output. I would like a little more clarification on this.
My individual track levels often times are in the "red" Pre Fader, but that seemingly never has anything to do with my final stereo output level; it's my Post Fader level of each track that affects it.
How, if at all, does the Pre Fader level affect the final stereo output? Since Logic has 32-bit floating point architecture, isn't there a ton of headroom on individual track level and its like impossible to really overload/clip?
Thanks in advance for any insight on this.
M-DAY

Yeah - sorry for the headrush, that thread was a doozy!
Yes, the same issues occur on for plugins in any audio path - if they use a fixed-point implementation, like for instance some Waves plugins do, or have low input headroom, then you can be distorting the audio through the input stage before the plugin is even doing anything, if you send in high or over-0dB values.
It is quite posible to clip the outputs slightly without really hearing much - the ear is used to small amounts of distortion, but you are damaging and changing the audio by doing so. Some people like this effect and even use it regularly.
Personally, there is a very good argument for keeping mix levels way below the 0dB point - 24-bit audio is fine for this, you don't lose resolution by turning the volume down, which is a popular misconception.
And any distortion you add into the chain, make sure it's introduced and controlled by an artistic decision, not a side-effect of not understanding what's happening...

Pre-Fader Metering on Output

Hello all.
While pre-fader metering is working great on all the channels - there is no difference registering on the master output (Output 1+2) when I toggle PFM off and on. I am sending it 16 very hot signals and only the output fader can change the meter reading.
Any ideas
Paul
PS - I love having this on the transport as a button - that and low-latency mode!

Nope.
If you put a few channels of noise that feed into Outputs 1+2, set the output fader to -50 or so, and then toggle the Pre-Post metering button, can you get a different reading from it?
Paul

Is pre-fader metering in Logic Express possible?

The manual says:
"Activation of Audio > Pre-Fader Metering ensures that the level displayed by the level meters is measured pre fader..."
But I don't have this option in Logic Express 7.2.3 - is this just me, or is it a manual misprint for a feature only available for Logic Pro?
Cheers
Powerbook G4 12 1.5GHz 512MB, iMac G3 400MHz 320MB Mac OS X (10.4.10) Logic Express 7.2.3

Logic Pro only.
"Express" = very limited version.
Cheers

Pre-fader metering

How many of you guys make use of pre-fader metering? Is it recommended?
I noticed that as soon as I turned it on a lot of my channels clipped and that I actually had to sort that out internally with a lot of the AU instruments, like RMX.
Let me hear some of your thoughts on this?
Thanks.

and it shows clipping,
Clipping? What, you mean that some of the meters are red, rather than orange? That's not clipping, that's just to indicate you have high levels.
that equals distortion doesn't it?
No. You can't really clip in a 32-bit floating point DAW. The only place you can clip are at the outputs - for this reason, you must always come in under 0dBFS to print the final mix.
But inside the mixer, you can have very high signal levels. It's possible for instance, to take an audio channel, add +1500dB (yes, fifteen hundred dB), and then on the output channel, reduce the gain by 1500dB, and you will still have a good, undistorted signal.
This is the benefit of implementing mixers with floating point maths (as they pretty much all are, these days) rather than fixed point maths.
However, good practice says that your audio channel levels shouldn't be too high, use 24-bit audio, and avoid running everything into above 0dBFS levels for a number of reasons - this also helps keep your mix levels under control.

How can I see VU levels post fader in Logic Pro?

Hi!
Why Logic´s pan and volume don´t show post fader, only pre fader??
If I pan to the left, it doesn´t show it???

Hi
Perhaps you have "Pre-FaderMetering" turned on?
Options:Audio:PreFader Metering
CCT

Error during setup of VSLS2011 "setup.exe: [2] ISetupComponent::Pre/Post/Install() failed in ISetupManager.."

Hi
I have VS 9 installed and was wanting to install LightSwitch so downloaded the ISO(VSLS2011_ENU.iso) and burnt to disk ran
setup.exe and received the this message.
"Setup could not install the following component:
Microsoft ApplicationError Reporting"
The log shows..
[02/09/15,13:52:02] Microsoft Application Error Reporting: [2] CMsiComponent::Install() expects the setup file for Microsoft Application Error Reporting, but the file failed verification.
[02/09/15,13:52:03] setup.exe: [2] ISetupComponent::Pre/Post/Install() failed in ISetupManager::InternalInstallManager() with HRESULT -2147467259.
[02/09/15,13:52:04] SimpleUI: [2] DepCheck indicates Microsoft Application Error Reporting is not installed.
[02/09/15,13:52:05] SimpleUI: [2] DepCheck indicates VC 9.0 Runtime (x86) was not attempted to be installed.....
.NetFramework 3.5
C:\Users\xxxxxx>Winmgmt /verifyrepository
WMI repository is consistent.
PC is win 7 pro 64bit

Hi ghw123,
Welcome to Lightswitch forum.
According to the error message above, this issue is related to verification. For this issue, you need make sure that you download VSLS2011_ENU.iso from Microsoft official site, see:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/8/0/0/80047AD9-1D3E-46EB-8CF8-DFDA59E7799D/VSLS2011_ENU.iso
In addition, if you want to learn LightSwitch, I'd like to suggest you to download VS2012 or VS2013, many new features are added to them. see:
http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/downloads
You need select the Lightswitch option when you install VS2012/VS2013.
Best regards,
Angie
We are trying to better understand customer views on social support experience, so your participation in this interview project would be greatly appreciated if you have time. Thanks for helping make community forums a great place.
Click
HERE to participate the survey.

Possibility to register Pre-/Post-Procedures for an SQL Template Handler

I would appreciate to see the possibility to register pre-/post-procedures for an SQL template handler in ORDS 3.0.
Why:
We use Oracle VPD/Row-Level-Security to secure data access. Hence a trigger sets a couple of attributes in the database session context at login time which are then used in static RLS predicates to limit which records the user can see/modify.
With ORDS 3.0 all sessions are opened under the same technical user (e.g. APEX_REST_PUBLIC_USER), hence all users have the same/no attributes in the session context and could see/modify all data.
To avoid this situation, I need to set the attributes (e.g. the authenticated user) in the database session context before the actual query/plsql handler is executed.
Also, resetting the session context after the handler is executed would be good.
This scenario is in line with scenarios 'One Big Application User' and 'Web-based applications' in http://docs.oracle.com/cd/B28359_01/network.111/b28531/vpd.htm#DBSEG98291.
Different solution approach:
Kris suggested to write a PL/SQL handler where the pre-procedure is called before the business logic procedure/query. This is ok for me as long as I modify data and only need to return no or little data.
As soon as I need to return a lot of data (e.g. select c1, c19, c30 from t1), this approach will force me to write a lot of code in the PL/SQL handler in order to marshal the c1, c19 and c30 to JSON and put it in the HTTP response.
But this is the beauty of ORDS - I can simply define a template, write a GET SQL Handler 'select c1, c19, c30 from t1' and have the data available as REST service, without writing any code to write JSON marshaled data in the HTTP response.

I tried to log the request at Oracle REST Data Services (ORDS) but I could only start a new discussion: Possibility to register Pre-/Post-Procedures for an SQL Template Handler
As I mentioned there, the PL/SQL handler approach works for me as long as I have no or only little data to send back to the client (e.g. put/post/delete succeeded or an error message why the call failed).
If I need to return a lot of data from the PL/SQL handler I would need to, as far as I understand, to marshal the data to JSON and write it to the response body in the PL/SQL handler.
I don't want to do the marshaling, because ORDS does it better.
However, this works for me:
I write a pipelined stored procedure that takes as input the attributes I need to set in the session context. I then can reference it in the SQL handler:
select * from table(my_pipelined_function(:USER, ....)
Now the JSON/HTTP response is created by ORDS again.
I still needed to code a couple of lines, but it is way better than duplicating the functionality already existing in ORDS.
With the hooks it would be perfect because I would not have to write any code (apart from the procedure to set the session context attributes), just configure the REST services in ORDS.

Pre/post processing

Hello group!
Configuration:
Oracle 8.1.7
XDK 9.0.0.0.0(beta)
We use XSQL Servlet scripts (great framework!). We tried to provide single entry point into our webapp. We want to replace XSQLServlet class, and gain control of our servlet environment (transactions, thread synchronization, logs...).
Problem is, if we replace XSQLServlet class with our own class (which extends HttpServlet), we can't use XSQLPageProcesor directly because it is declared private for XSQLServlet package.
So, we try to use XSQLRequest class and construct an instance with XSQLServletPageRequest as parameter and then call XSQLRequest.process().
It works ,but ...
When we attach object with setRequestObject (), requestProcessed is never called.
Why? We mist something?
If we use XSQLRequest (URL url), must we handle sessions, request parameters, cookies ...?
Where is the best place to put pre/post processing of request?
Thanks in advance
Tomi
null

We found just XSQLPageRequest.setRequestObject(), that we already try to use (first post in thread).
We associate *.xsql with our HttpServlet because we want to transparently add controller object(s), and we want to turn this feature off in servlet engine config whenever we want. If we forward it (getServletContext().getRequestDispatcher().forward()), with same name and extension ...
Some code:
public void doGet(HttpServletRequest request, HttpServletResponse response)
throws ServletException, IOException
XSQLServletPageRequest req = new XSQLServletPageRequest(request, response, myContext);
//TransactionController implements the XSQLRequestObjectListener
req.setRequestObject("transaction",new TransactionController(req));
XSQLRequest xsqlrequest = new XSQLRequest(request.getRequestURI(), req);
try
xsqlrequest.process(response.getOutputStream() ,new PrintWriter(System.err));
catch(Exception ex)
ex.printStackTrace();
return;
}When we call XSQLRequest.process, servlet response just fine (except we lost default encoding windows-1250?).
TransactionController is properly attached, but requestProcessed is never called.
We found why. Maybe?
XSQLRequest.process call createNestedRequest from XSQLServletPageRequest, and then setIncludingRequest.
This seems like little overhead :)
We just want to keep our XSQL Scripts clean from including controllers via custom actions in every page.
Can we do that?
Anybody tried something similar?
Thanks for your time
Tomi
null

Is there any event callback for "pre/post-register/unregister" object?

Dear all,
We noticed that there are rich set of event callback provided by TopLink, including "pre/post-Refresh/Build/Clone/Merge". However, we cannot found any callback method for "pre/post-register/unregister" events. They will be very useful, if we to manage the internal status of register/unregister to indicate whether it is still under the control of TopLink.
Thanks and regards,
William

William,
Those specific events do not exist. The postClone event is called after an object is registered. This is frequently used to copy non-persistent values from the cached original into the working copy.
There is also the ability to customize the clone/copy policy used by TopLink in creating the working copies in the UnitOfWork.
http://download-west.oracle.com/otn_hosted_doc/toplink/1013/DP4/_html/descfg028.htm#sthref3950
Doug

Pre-post / parked document in outgoing payment posting

Hi Experts,
could any of You, please confirm, if possible to create pre-posted / parked document for outgoing payment?
We use F-53 / FBZ2 for this action, but sometimes takes a long time to select all items related to a bank payment note. The user want to have only one final document, no partial bookings.
Is there any possibility to create parked / dummy version here, to pause the administrational process and continue later, without loosing the data?
Answers will be appreciated

Hello,
Please try recurring entries using transaction code F.14.
I think there is no account assignment model or sample document where we can create for outgoing payments.
Thanks
Sharan

Pre/Post Fader Metering. Stumped...

Similar Messages

Maybe you are looking for