QuickTime color shift in KN 08 vs 09

I am working with two different content contributors, Frank and Frannie, to create an iMovie based on some animated Keynote slides that share the same design template. I created the template in Keynote 08, and shared a copy with Frank, who also uses KN 08, and Frannie, who uses 09. Both are running G5 machines with 10.4.11.
I'm putting Frank and Frannie's QuickTime clips, which were both exported using the exact same export settings (H.264, best quality), into my copy of iMovie (v. 6). But talk about strange: The background color and Frank and Frannie's exported QT clips, though created from the exact same original template, are different! The nice aqua blue exported from Frank's older copy of keynote is much truer to the original template than Frannie's, which was exported from KN 09. Her QT footage is a different shade of blue--not as attractive.
Unfortunately, Frank can't get a copy of Frannie's Keynote presentation and export it for her--Her file format is too new. Plus, we don't want to have to face this workflow issue in the future. Is there any way to prevent Keynote 08 and 09 from exporting these colors differently?

Is Fannie on Snow Leopard and is Frank using Tiger? More specifically, does Fannie have Quicktime X and does Frank have Quicktime 7 or earlier?
I've found a huge color discrepancy when exporting Keynote 09' presentations to quicktime in Snow Leopard especially when using the H.264 codec. Using the Animation codec yields the best results but the file sizes are massive. Haven't had this problem in machines running KN-09' in Tiger though. There's a slight color shift between the presentation and the exported movie but not like in snow leopard.
I've done some snooping around and Quicktime X may be a culprit, but haven't had time to test yet. will keep you posted.

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QuickTime 7.1.6 Gamma/Color Shift Is Demonstrable

You can easily see the undesirable behavior of gamma/color shifting when playing H.264 codec movies in Apple's QuickTime Player.
Download any Apple HD (1920x?) QuickTime Trailer. Open and switch view to Double Size. The movie will immediately become darker with a pronounced gamma and color shift.
Reopening the movie switches back to the correct gamma and color.
I reported this bug, and since it's so easy to demonstrate, Apple should be able to fix it once and for all.
PowerBook G4 17 Mac OS X (10.4.9) QuickTime 7.1.6
PowerBook G4 17

I think you may find some will argue with you. DV and H264 at normal size look too bright and washed out for a lot of people, and are not the correct amount of darkness they should be. Fortuately when they're compressed to MPEG-2, if that's where you headed, they get the contrast back again.
Playing the move doubled up is one of many work arounds to the problem. But the problem isn't the one you think it is. You're right about the fact that it should be fixed once and for all.

Color Shift from Quicktime Movie

Ok, Here is my problem. When I do a copy and paste into director from a Quicktime movie for the first and last frame of my movie the is a noticible color shift when the movie starts to play on my command and when the movie transitions from the last frame of the QT to the still i have placed at the end of the movie.
Any ideas?

My director skills are fairly basic. Any chance you can direct me to an online tutorial that would walk me through this process?
Open your Director file. Locate a QuickTime member in your cast library. Open the Property Inspector and navigate it to the QuickTime tab where you should uncheck DTS. Drag this member onto the stage to create a sprite in channel 1 in an otherwise empty section of your score. Open your Message Window and execute the following lines of code, one at a time, by pressing the RETURN key at the end of each line:
sprite(1).movieTime = 0
updateStage
new(#bitmap).image = (the stage).image.duplicate.crop(sprite(1).rect)
sprite(1).movieTime = sprite(1).member.duration
updateStage
new(#bitmap).image = (the stage).image.duplicate.crop(sprite(1).rect)

Premiere Pro CS6 and Media Encoder CS6 Color shift on export

Hello,
I am working on an early 2008 Mac Pro with 2 X 3.2 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon Processors 32 GB of RAM a NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512 MB Graphics Card and I am running OS X 10.8.2.
I have the updated Version of Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 and Media Encoder CS6 through the awesome Subscription program that Adobe has started.
My footage is shot with the Canon 1D Mark IV shot 1920X1080 at 24 FPS
I am importing the camera files and then exporting them after I cut them up in to Quicktime Pro Res 422 HQ files
With the technical explination out of the way here is my problem. I have color right from the camera files that I like. and with out doing any thing to change the color I export the footage and get a dramatic color shift. The exported file looks desaturated and slightly green.
I have tried using Media Encoder CS6 to export my footage and that has the same result.
I started my career as a photographic retoucher and use photoshop and light room constantly so I am pretty confident that i know color. I also calibrate my Lacie 526 and Lacie 324i montiors monthly as well as have a sensor that will slightly shift the profile depending on the time of day.
I have attached three screen shots that show the color shift exactly. Now what I need is a solution. What I am not seeing is color settings for Premiere. I am totally open to any suggestions on what I might be doing incorrectly.
Ben

Benjamin Peterson wrote:
I started my career as a photographic retoucher and use photoshop and light room constantly so I am pretty confident that i know color. I also calibrate my Lacie 526 and Lacie 324i montiors monthly as well as have a sensor that will slightly shift the profile depending on the time of day.
I've been doing this for a few years now, and have come to some conclusions. Basically, the difference between still photography and video is like the difference between playing the trumpet and the sax. What you bring to the sax from playing trumpet is your ability to read music, what you know about composition, blending while playint with others, ect. But playing trumpet tells you nothing about how to physically play a sax. So it is with still photography and video.
For starters, your carefully calibrated computer monitor is just that, a computer monitor. It doesn't display the correct working space for video. What you need for WYSIWYG in video is a monitor that can show you the Rec.709 working space. Rec.709 has a different gamut, a different gamma, probably a different white point (D65), different phosphor colors, etc., etc., etc. Enought differences that it's difficult to make a computer monitor that can successfully display Rec.709. Yet there are a couple of computer monitors that can do this (a few Eizos, one HP). The vast majority of people doing serious color correction work in video use a production monitor for just this reason.
But a production monitor isn't enough. You also have to make sure that the signals you're sending the production monitor are correct. There's a sub-industry making signal converters for signals from NLE video cards (usually RGB based) -> signals for production monitors (usually YUV based).
That said, it is certainly possible to get a very good match between your NLE suite and a DVD / BD as displayed on an HDTV. But it's not as simple or easy as a calibrtated computer monitor for still photography use.
This is probably part of your problem. But Quicktime is probably the root of it. Quicktime is, well, I guess the polite way of saying it is that Quicktime is problematic. It gives all kinds of problems. Most people have abandoned it. You should too.

Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG

Hi....
In AfterEffects when choosing an output module and that module be ProRes or 10 Bit Uncompressed,
when trying to color manage the file, there is a fine line called
'This Codec Does Not Support Output Profile'
You can find it int he Color Management Pane of the output module....
Funny thing is - That Profile Embedding IS support by:#
Apple's Compressor and THE CODEC 4444 AND UnCompressed
Episodes Encoder
See following Screen Shots:
First one from Apple's Compressor...
Look at that little beautiful Color Option... Adobe did you MISS that one, perhaps...
You must have - because your APPS are NOT including that when encoding or should I say
butchering movie files....
Here adobes famous but wrong dialog!!!!
And in this next screen shot you can easily see that adobe just strips the color profile out of the file...
AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS A COLOR SHIFT...........
left image = Apple's Compressor Encoding (Colors match of course) - Right Adobe's BRUTAL encoding (Colors WONT match...)
Now, in after effects you wont notice the shift. But ALL mac and PC users using quicktime to watch YOUR movies
are going to be looking at a movie with a different look than you thought it WOULD be... Courtesy of adobe ;-)
Jokes aside, Adobe.... It seems as if this one is on you to fix... Apple's Compressor has NO problems. And other encoders are also preserving those values.
Now... Let us assume that I encode in compressor... Looks are matching 100% that of the original source. All it takes to mess that up is ONE
roundtrip to after effects, premiere pro or Media Encoder. That is if I wanna maintain my initial choice of transcodec - in my case 4444 or 10bit Uncomp.
I could of course export to animation and then use compressor AGAIN to transcode to my format of choice... But in the long run I think that will become tedious.
Perhaps you could assign a few engineers on this one and in the future spend MORE time on living up to the name PRO(The most misused word in the software business) instead of wasting time generating new Application icons for your apps....
Thanks for reading and for a PROMPT and near-future BUG FIX

Mylenium wrote:
It's not really "embedding" anything, it merely sets the QT color space flags which have been there forever, but are mostly unused. Specific to ProRes it also toggles different internal optimizations in the encoding. That's also documented somewhere on the QT developer pages. I'm not sure I share your views otherwise. The point really is, that Apple developed ProRes just as much as a closed workflow within their products as Avid did with their CoDecs. Therefore the widespread use of the CoDecs is merely a byproduct of the use of the products, but not per se an intended workflow outside of those and, which is the more important part, also not explicable as a causal circumstance of the quality. If I may be so bold: What you are saying sounds like everyone would be using the Animation CoDec because it is so good, when the simple fact is that there are no decent free cross-platform alternatives and people are willing to accept limitations because of that. Don't get me wrong, ProRes is well designed and pretty robust, but the world doesn't come to an end without it and outside the Mac world it is difficult to deal with. Hell, it's even difficult to deal with between different versions of FCP occasionally...
Mylenium
I have been testing codecs for a long long looooooong time. My criterion(s) are:
1) Image Quality and that through multiple encoding generations and color grading
THEEEN
a looooong way down the road
2) Performance
BTW - I find that working with files less compressed and thus HUGE is much better. Hard drives are so cheap that one can build himself an 8 Disk RAID0 and that takes care of everything. In PPRO I can cut real time in FulRes with an uncompressed codec with the processors maxing at 3% while the H264 editing sequence will stutter like a drunken wasp and maxing the CPUs at 63%.... Go figure...
ProRes 4444's impeccable imageQuality:performance ratio, is unbeaten.
Especially on H264 material like that of the Canon5D. You might say if the source is 4:2:0 why bother upping it to 4444... Well in theory perhaps
it is overkill. But rather than reading in theoretical white papers I conduct my own tests. And the end results are (REALITY) and way different from what theory states. TO anyone reading this. DONT believe ANYTHING you read about codec nor what I am saying.... DO YOUR OWN TESTING and judge for yourself. Problem is that you have to do 100's and 100's of transcodings with ONE source to various destinations with lost of grading and transcoding generation. THEN you have to keep track of your tests and THEN compare them. It takes WEEKs. But it is well worth while it. In my case... I start with a Canon5DMKII H264 movies. Transcode it to PRORES4444 then I do LOTS of compositing and re-encoding then lots of color grading etc etc etc. Then I export back to H264 - and the end result is STUNNING has NO artifacts and is adorable to look at. Not so with at least 6 other codecs claiming to be top-notch....
Sure Mylenium, the world would NOT end with PR4444 not in it... BUT the WORLD has ALREADY decided that it WANTED ProRes4444 in it. It is growing and that every day..........
Had the codec not been so darn excellent - it would NOT have been used. Period.

H264 HD Color Shift

I've searched the forums and found some references to something similar having to do with h264's encoding for HD and SD differently with rec601 and rec709 (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/769015) but we seem to have the opposite problem where outputting from AE directly works and AME gives us shifted colors.
We are using CS6 production premium with all recent updates on PCs.
We have an animation compressed quicktime as a source file that we are trying to output via AME using H264. If we output it as SD, all colors look fine, if we output the same file to HD we get a pretty big color shift, this is with any of the H264 presets in AME - Vimeo, Broadcast, custom, etc, HD color is shifted, SD is correct - same source file. No color management on files or in AE, all files being viewed on the same computer monitor. If we use AME to compress it with something other than H264 the output is fine at both SD and HD. If we take the same source file and output it from AE directly with the H264 preset both SD and HD colors are correct.
Is there something inherently different in the way that AME and AE are using H264, something obvious that we're missing or is this a bug?
Thanks in advance for any help....

"If we output it as SD, all colors look fine, if we output the same file to HD we get a pretty big color shift, this is with any of the H264 presets in AME"
This means that the source is rec601.
If opened/queued to AME I'm assuming that if the size is bigger than HD that is is guessing that it is rec709. - basically the check is if Height is greater or equal to 720 it is HD. (height >= 720)
In that case AME will assume it is rec709.
It's up to the exporter to select whether to override the SD/HD auto-detect and force it to rec601/rec709.
Check to see if there is that option in the bundled h.264 encoder. The 3rd party product x264pro does have this override.

Color shifts when exporting a picture sequence in both FCP/Compressor

For a project I had to make a movie from still images. I imported the .tiff files and edited them in the right order. Then I added transitions and motion to the images (zoom in or zoom out). When I playback the sequence in Final Cut Pro everything looked perfectly fine. But when I exported to Quicktime... from both Final Cut Pro itself as from Compressor I got strange color shifts. I rendered like 10 times and every time two or three photo's were affected with a purple/blueish haze over them. Finally, the 11 time I tried it rendered as it was supposed to. It felt like playing Russian roulette.
The question that is bugging me: what can have caused this?
I tried both HDV and ProRes as timeline setting. What is the best setting for working with still images? And is .tiff the best format to work with or can I better convert to .png or .jpeg?
I hope someone can tell me what happened that horrible night.

The problem is that you haven't answered Jerry's question. it is very difficult to troubleshoot these sort of questions from a distance if you don't systematically check for the obvious things. Jerry is one of the best resources here and if he suggests a possible solution, it's a good idea to explore that first.
Message was edited by: Michael Grenadier

Big Color Shift between exported H264 mp4 and Program Monitor

I get a big Color Shift between exported H264 mp4 on Vimeo/Youtube and Quicktime X and Program Monitor.
There are quite a few posts on Quicktime gamma issues, but there seem to be no solutions and the other editors I know don't seem to have this problem.
I know there will be a bit of a shift but this is MASSIVE. At the moment I add a whole extra adjustment layer to all my clips to get it approximately right, but ofcourse this does not solve the issue nor does it give proper results.
Please do not reply with the "You need a real reference monitor via SDI etc etc ..."
By my logic on the same screen the program monitor should resemble what is going to be the final result in a relevant player like Quicktime X which all normal apple consumers use to watch their films. I know VLC and Mpeg streamclip gives different results, but mostly when playing Quicktime/h264 files Quicktime will play it thus average users ( the people I'd like to downwload/buy my films )will watch it in Quicktime.
Furthermore, Quicktime X's gamma/color looks very similar to the image I get on Youtube or Vimeo - which is where all my current work is going. I'm not outputting to boradcast or DVD etc.
Strangely enough the MPEG 2 stuff I've done for DVD matches the Youtube output with the Program monitor.
What am I doing wrong?
I have a Dell 2711 wide Gamut Display which is calibrated with an SPyder 3 Elite using its full colour gamut ( close to 90% of Adobe RGB - thus bigger than sRGB or Rec709) Could Premiere be ignoring the calibration in the Program monitor and making the image values 16-235 and then Quicktime uses all values 0-255? If so, how can I fix this?
Any help will be much appreciated!

I know this has been a while so hopefully you found some help by now, but maybe this will help anyone stumbling across this.
What people seem to be missing in what you are asking is... this is the same file, on the same monitor, but with a different appearance in different software. It is not a question of whether the overall monitoring is GOOD, and it is not a matter of hardware settings (as that would most likely propogate across all software) it is that it is not CONSISTENT side by side on the very same monitor.
I had very similar issues that really seemed to get worse when we got new monitors, which is what lead me to chime in here. The monitors were also wide gamut displays.
The problem is likely this...
1. The difference being shown are the difference between software that properly color manages (i.e. Premier or After Effects) and software that does not (i.e. Quicktime or some web browsers)
2. The reason it is so severe is that the wide gamut monitors are able to show many more colors and thus the difference between the managed and unmanaged software is much more exagerrated than on regular gamut monitors.
I found this great link that helped calm my nerves and helped me get handle on much of what is going on.
http://www.artstorm.net/journal/2009/07/color-management-wide-gamut-dell-2408/
Now that is not to say that the 0-255/16-235 issue is not also involved here. It is definitely possible that a specific codec or compressor is part of the problem, but it sounds like it starts with the color management issue first.
I hope this helps.
Andy

Color shift between play and pause

Hello,
On CC 7.0 and 7.1, I noticed there is an important color shift between pausing and playing my timeline when using "CineForm Visually Perfect" encoded source material.
This is especially noticeable on reds.
Using other codecs, there is no such shift.
My video card is a Geforce 650M. At first, I thaught it might be related to the video overlay settings of the card, but there are no such settings in the control panel.
Besides, using Quicktime to play the source produces no shift as well.
As I am often doing color correction using Premiere, and as I have dropped Avid exactly because I always had this same problem (when using a profiled calibrated screen), I would like to know precisely what is going on. As I'm regularly producing shows for broadcast, it is a real problem not to be sure whether what you see matches the final exported output in all circumstances.
NB : For the need of searching the cause of this problem I disabled any custom profiling of my screen.
Thanks ! for any answers.
Fred

Sure and thanks. But nevertheless, if you color correct using a calibrated screen, and produce for the web ; or if you do a first pass of color correction before the ultimate pass happens with a "properly calibrated TV", wouldn't you like that your paused frame would look like your playing frame ?

Color shift (gamma?) between XDCAM Ex and PROres

Hi,
We have edited a show in Apple XDCAM EX in 23,98 HD. We did a QT movie of that sequence into the native codec that we edit with (Apple XDCAM EX).
Into quicktime, or even in compressor, we re-export ta video into Apple Pro Res and we are experiencing a big color shift between both codec.
Somedoby have an idea on that?
Thank you!
Nicolas

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If you search the posts here and on the Cow, you'll find other references to it.
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Color shift when converting .mov file exported from Macromedia Flash

I'm trying to convert quicktime file exported from Flash into any other format using Quicktime Pro 7.0.4 and I get substantial color shift. Here's the picture:
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1518/screen3ov.jpg
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I am in the midst of trying to figure out the opposite : Flash to After Effects. I am betting that this is an issue of 'color profile' attached to the images and the gamma settings in that profile. RGBA is only part of the story - color profile is all the rest of it. Eye Dropper doesn't tell you the color profile attached to the image.

Color shift during export

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What is the most accurate way of getting this project directly to DVD format or HD DVD format without any color shifts or further adjustments? And converting the audio to AC3.
The project is all in HDV 720p24 from a JVC HD101 camera.
The length is 15 min 15 sec 19 frms
I plan to put this on a SD DVD and make a HD DVD image ready so I can burn once I've bought a HD burner.
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Now I opened the same file in FCP and the colors are as the original ones, this must be because there's a diference in color spaces.
Most people won't be watching this on FCP but other players like quicktime or windows media player and I would not like them to see this shift in colors.
And what about DVD players?
If I drop this clip into DVD Studio Pro and see that the colors are like the original (though I still need to go through compression) will the colors remain the same when I use my Apple DVD Player and not shift like quicktime does?

Color shift during video capture (moved from Nseri...

I have noticed that the video camera in my n79 is very sensitive to changes in light. Often I get a major color shift during a video capture seemingly for no reason, especially when shooting outside. Is this a defect or should I use a particular setting for video? Current settings are:
quality: High(TV);
scene mode:Auto;
video light: off(shooting video outside during day);
white balance: Automatic (this MIGHT be the culprit?);
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Two stills from the same video are attached; the second, a few seconds later, is unnaturally vivid (almost day-glo!).
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Wow, what a quick reply!
Delivery was going to be Quicktime HD and probably downconvering to SD MPEG2 for a DVD. I was just going to edit in HDV, since I'm not doing anything fancy, just to try it out as a workflow option (and previews for the client). The first couple of projects I've started on my Macbook Pro though have had this hue shift (I can post an example on-line if need be by filming my monitor...) It's not inherent in the actual captured QT file, just when being played back in FCP. When I export out of FCP the QT file looks great as well. I've never had this problem on my G5 tower with HDV from the same camera or captured the same way. I'm worried that it's the univeral copy of FCP or even worse, my Macbook!
Make sense?
Thanks

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Lightroom's web module is not color managed, so what you're seeing is 'by design'.
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Menu colors shift after build

OK, so my menus look good in DVDSP, and in the simulator. However, after building, when tested in the DVD Player, they look "washed out". Everything is lighter, less saturated...
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I'm somewhat familiar with the whole issue of color spaces and gamuts etc., but I don't really see any settings in DVDSP to manage this.

I managed to fix this issue, here's what I did in case anyone else has this problem.
The issue was that the DVD template I purchased has a motion background, and when you apply the template to a menu (for example), it adds the a QuickTime movie for the background. The fact that DVDSP was rendering the .mov into a .m2v during the build is what caused the color shift.
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QuickTime color shift in KN 08 vs 09

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