Re: HDR5010KB Digital Recorder - signal doesn't always come through using HDMI
Hi,
I bought the above product in October. Since then I've had an intermittent problem. When switching to the AV channel on my TV, (a Panasonic TX-P42S20B) the signal doesn't always come through when using the HDMI channel (I also have it connected via a scart, and that always works so seems to be an HDMI problem.) It's particularly apparent when the recorder has been used for a while (either for recording or playback.) It's not overheating (or if it is, not to the degree I'm getting a warning message), and turning the power off at the mains seems to rectify the issue, but it's a pain.
I've tried switching the hdmi lead, as well as trying different AV channels on my TV and it hasn't helped. Is this a common problem or do I have a faulty unit?
Any suggestions would be appreciated
no, everything else works fine. I've tried swapping cables & hdmi sockets on the TV with no luck. One thing I have noticed, the recorder also works as a hdmi hub (there's 2 additional inputs). Switching the output to one of the other hdmi's, waiting, then switching the outputback to the recorder usually resolves the problem. it's just a pain having to do it
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TTL specified in put operation doesn't always work when using write-behind
I'm using a distributed cache with a write-behind cache store (see the config below). I found that when I do something like myCache.put(key, value, ttl), the entry survives the specified ttl. I tried doing the same with a distributed cache with a write-through cachestore and there everything does happen correctly.
Is this sort of operation not permitted in caches containing a write-behind cachestore? If not wouldn't it be better to throw an UnsupportedOperationException.
I created a small test to simulate this. I added values to the cache with a TTL of 1 to 10 seconds and found that the 10 second entries stayed in the cache.
Configuration used:
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE cache-config SYSTEM "cache-config.dtd">
<cache-config>
<caching-scheme-mapping>
<cache-mapping>
<cache-name>TTL_TEST</cache-name>
<scheme-name>testScheme</scheme-name>
</cache-mapping>
</caching-scheme-mapping>
<caching-schemes>
<distributed-scheme>
<scheme-name>testScheme</scheme-name>
<service-name>testService</service-name>
<backing-map-scheme>
<read-write-backing-map-scheme>
<internal-cache-scheme>
<local-scheme>
<service-name>testBackLocalService</service-name>
</local-scheme>
</internal-cache-scheme>
<cachestore-scheme>
<class-scheme>
<scheme-name>testBackStore</scheme-name>
<class-name>TTLTestServer$TestCacheStore</class-name>
</class-scheme>
</cachestore-scheme>
<write-delay>3s</write-delay>
</read-write-backing-map-scheme>
</backing-map-scheme>
<local-storage>true</local-storage>
<autostart>true</autostart>
</distributed-scheme>
</caching-schemes>
</cache-config>Code of test:
import java.util.Collection;
import java.util.List;
import java.util.Map;
import java.util.concurrent.Callable;
import java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException;
import java.util.concurrent.ExecutorService;
import java.util.concurrent.Executors;
import java.util.concurrent.Future;
import org.joda.time.DateTime;
import org.joda.time.Duration;
import org.slf4j.Logger;
import org.slf4j.LoggerFactory;
import org.springframework.util.StopWatch;
import org.testng.annotations.BeforeClass;
import org.testng.annotations.Test;
import com.google.common.collect.Lists;
import com.tangosol.net.CacheFactory;
import com.tangosol.net.NamedCache;
import com.tangosol.net.cache.CacheStore;
@Test
public class TTLTestServer
private static final int RETRIES = 5;
private static final Logger logger = LoggerFactory.getLogger( TTLTestServer.class );
private NamedCache m_cache;
* List of Time-To-Lives in seconds to check
private final List<Integer> m_listOfTTLs = Lists.newArrayList(1, 3, 5, 10);
* Test is done in separate threads to speed up the test
private final ExecutorService m_executorService = Executors.newCachedThreadPool();
@BeforeClass
public void setup()
logger.info("Getting the cache");
m_cache = CacheFactory.getCache("TTL_TEST");
public static class TestCacheStore implements CacheStore
public void erase(Object arg0)
public void eraseAll(Collection arg0)
public void store(Object arg0, Object arg1)
public void storeAll(Map arg0)
public Object load(Object arg0)
{return null;}
public Map loadAll(Collection arg0)
{return null;}
public void testTTL() throws InterruptedException, ExecutionException
logger.info("Starting TTL test");
List<Future<StopWatch>> futures = Lists.newArrayList();
for (final Integer ttl : m_listOfTTLs)
futures.add(m_executorService.submit(new Callable()
public Object call() throws Exception
StopWatch stopWatch= new StopWatch("TTL=" + ttl);
for (int retry = 0; retry < RETRIES; retry++)
logger.info("Adding a value in cache for TTL={} in try={}", ttl, retry+1);
stopWatch.start("Retry="+retry);
m_cache.put(ttl, null, ttl*1000);
waitUntilNotInCacheAnymore(ttl, retry);
stopWatch.stop();
return stopWatch;
private void waitUntilNotInCacheAnymore(final Integer ttl, final int currentTry) throws InterruptedException
DateTime startTime = new DateTime();
long maxMillisToWait = ttl*2*1000; //wait max 2 times the time of the ttl
while(m_cache.containsKey(ttl) )
Duration timeTaken = new Duration(startTime, new DateTime());
if(timeTaken.getMillis() > maxMillisToWait)
throw new RuntimeException("Already waiting " + timeTaken + " for ttl=" + ttl + " and retry=" + currentTry);
Thread.sleep(1000);
logger.info("Waiting until all futures are finished");
m_executorService.shutdown();
logger.info("Getting results from futures");
for (Future<StopWatch> future : futures)
StopWatch sw = future.get();
logger.info(sw.prettyPrint());
}Failure message:
FAILED: testTTL
java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Already waiting PT20.031S for ttl=10 and retry=0
at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask$Sync.innerGet(Unknown Source)
at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.get(Unknown Source)
at TTLTestServer.testTTL(TTLTestServer.java:159)
Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Already waiting PT20.031S for ttl=10 and retry=0
at TTLTestServer$1.waitUntilNotInCacheAnymore(TTLTestServer.java:139)
at TTLTestServer$1.call(TTLTestServer.java:122)
at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask$Sync.innerRun(Unknown Source)
at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(Unknown Source)
at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.runTask(Unknown Source)
at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)I'm using Coherence 3.4.2.
Best regards
JanHi, still no luck. However, I noticed that setting the write-delay value of the write-behind store to 0s or 1s, solved the problem. It only starts to given me "the node has already been removed" excpetions once the write-delay value is 2s or higher.
You can find the coherence-cache-config.xml below:
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE cache-config SYSTEM "cache-config.dtd">
<cache-config>
<caching-scheme-mapping>
<cache-mapping>
<cache-name>TTL_TEST</cache-name>
<scheme-name>testScheme</scheme-name>
</cache-mapping>
</caching-scheme-mapping>
<caching-schemes>
<distributed-scheme>
<scheme-name>testScheme</scheme-name>
<service-name>testService</service-name>
<backing-map-scheme>
<read-write-backing-map-scheme>
<internal-cache-scheme>
<local-scheme>
<service-name>testBackLocalService</service-name>
</local-scheme>
</internal-cache-scheme>
<cachestore-scheme>
<class-scheme>
<scheme-name>testBackStore</scheme-name>
<class-name>TTLTestServer$TestCacheStore</class-name>
</class-scheme>
</cachestore-scheme>
<write-delay>2s</write-delay>
</read-write-backing-map-scheme>
</backing-map-scheme>
<local-storage>true</local-storage>
<autostart>true</autostart>
</distributed-scheme>
</caching-schemes>
</cache-config>You can find the test program below:
import java.util.ArrayList;
import java.util.Collection;
import java.util.List;
import java.util.Map;
import org.joda.time.DateTime;
import org.joda.time.Duration;
import org.springframework.util.StopWatch;
import com.tangosol.net.CacheFactory;
import com.tangosol.net.NamedCache;
import com.tangosol.net.cache.CacheStore;
public class TTLTestServer
private static final int RETRIES = 5;
private NamedCache m_cache;
* List of Time-To-Lives in seconds to check
private final List<Integer> m_listOfTTLs = new ArrayList<Integer>();
* @param args
* @throws Exception
public static void main( String[] args ) throws Exception
new TTLTestServer().test();
* Empty CacheStore
* @author jbe
public static class TestCacheStore implements CacheStore
public void erase(Object arg0)
@SuppressWarnings ( "unchecked" )
public void eraseAll(Collection arg0)
public void store(Object arg0, Object arg1)
@SuppressWarnings ( "unchecked" )
public void storeAll(Map arg0)
public Object load(Object arg0)
{return null;}
@SuppressWarnings ( "unchecked" )
public Map loadAll(Collection arg0)
{return null;}
* Sets up and executes the test setting values in a cache with a given time-to-live value and waiting for the value to disappear.
* @throws Exception
private void test() throws Exception
System.out.println(new DateTime() + " - Setting up TTL test");
m_cache = CacheFactory.getCache("TTL_TEST");
m_listOfTTLs.add( 1 );
m_listOfTTLs.add( 3 );
m_listOfTTLs.add( 5 );
m_listOfTTLs.add( 10);
System.out.println(new DateTime() + " - Starting TTL test");
for (final Integer ttl : m_listOfTTLs)
StopWatch sw = doTest(ttl);
System.out.println(sw.prettyPrint());
* Adds a value to the cache with the time-to-live as given by the ttl parameter and waits until it's removed from the cache.
* Repeats this {@link #RETRIES} times
* @param ttl
* @return
* @throws Exception
private StopWatch doTest(Integer ttl) throws Exception
StopWatch stopWatch= new StopWatch("TTL=" + ttl);
for (int retry = 0; retry < RETRIES; retry++)
System.out.println(new DateTime() + " - Adding a value in cache for TTL=" + ttl + " in try= " + (retry+1));
stopWatch.start("Retry="+retry);
m_cache.put(ttl, null, ttl*1000);
waitUntilNotInCacheAnymore(ttl, retry);
stopWatch.stop();
return stopWatch;
* Wait until the value for the given ttl is not in the cache anymore
* @param ttl
* @param currentTry
* @throws InterruptedException
private void waitUntilNotInCacheAnymore(final Integer ttl, final int currentTry) throws InterruptedException
DateTime startTime = new DateTime();
long maxMillisToWait = ttl*2*1000; //wait max 2 times the time of the ttl
while(m_cache.containsKey(ttl) )
Duration timeTaken = new Duration(startTime, new DateTime());
if(timeTaken.getMillis() > maxMillisToWait)
throw new RuntimeException("Already waiting " + timeTaken + " for ttl=" + ttl + " and retry=" + currentTry);
Thread.sleep(1000);
}You can find the output below:
2009-12-03T11:50:04.584+01:00 - Setting up TTL test
2009-12-03 11:50:04.803/0.250 Oracle Coherence 3.5.2/463p2 <Info> (thread=main, member=n/a): Loaded operational configuration from resource "jar:file:/C:/Temp/coherence3.5.2/coherence-java-v3.5.2b463-p1_2/coherence/lib/coherence.jar!/tangosol-coherence.xml"
2009-12-03 11:50:04.803/0.250 Oracle Coherence 3.5.2/463p2 <Info> (thread=main, member=n/a): Loaded operational overrides from resource "jar:file:/C:/Temp/coherence3.5.2/coherence-java-v3.5.2b463-p1_2/coherence/lib/coherence.jar!/tangosol-coherence-override-dev.xml"
2009-12-03 11:50:04.803/0.250 Oracle Coherence 3.5.2/463p2 <D5> (thread=main, member=n/a): Optional configuration override "/tangosol-coherence-override.xml" is not specified
2009-12-03 11:50:04.803/0.250 Oracle Coherence 3.5.2/463p2 <D5> (thread=main, member=n/a): Optional configuration override "/custom-mbeans.xml" is not specified
Oracle Coherence Version 3.5.2/463p2
Grid Edition: Development mode
Copyright (c) 2000, 2009, Oracle and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved.
2009-12-03 11:50:04.943/0.390 Oracle Coherence GE 3.5.2/463p2 <Info> (thread=main, member=n/a): Loaded cache configuration from "file:/C:/jb/workspace3.5/TTLTest/target/classes/coherence-cache-config.xml"
2009-12-03 11:50:05.318/0.765 Oracle Coherence GE 3.5.2/463p2 <D5> (thread=Cluster, member=n/a): Service Cluster joined the cluster with senior service member n/a
2009-12-03 11:50:08.568/4.015 Oracle Coherence GE 3.5.2/463p2 <Info> (thread=Cluster, member=n/a): Created a new cluster "cluster:0xD3FB" with Member(Id=1, Timestamp=2009-12-03 11:50:05.193, Address=172.16.44.32:8088, MachineId=36896, Location=process:11848, Role=TTLTestServerTTLTestServer, Edition=Grid Edition, Mode=Development, CpuCount=2, SocketCount=2) UID=0xAC102C20000001255429380990201F98
2009-12-03 11:50:08.584/4.031 Oracle Coherence GE 3.5.2/463p2 <D5> (thread=Invocation:Management, member=1): Service Management joined the cluster with senior service member 1
2009-12-03 11:50:08.756/4.203 Oracle Coherence GE 3.5.2/463p2 <D5> (thread=DistributedCache:testService, member=1): Service testService joined the cluster with senior service member 1
2009-12-03T11:50:08.803+01:00 - Starting TTL test
2009-12-03T11:50:08.818+01:00 - Adding a value in cache for TTL=1 in try= 1
2009-12-03T11:50:09.818+01:00 - Adding a value in cache for TTL=1 in try= 2
Exception in thread "main" (Wrapped: Failed request execution for testService service on Member(Id=1, Timestamp=2009-12-03 11:50:05.193, Address=172.16.44.32:8088, MachineId=36896, Location=process:11848, Role=TTLTestServerTTLTestServer)) java.lang.IllegalStateException: the node has already been removed
at com.tangosol.util.Base.ensureRuntimeException(Base.java:293)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.daemon.queueProcessor.service.Grid.tagException(Grid.CDB:36)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.daemon.queueProcessor.service.grid.DistributedCache.onContainsKeyRequest(DistributedCache.CDB:41)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.daemon.queueProcessor.service.grid.DistributedCache$ContainsKeyRequest.run(DistributedCache.CDB:1)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.net.message.requestMessage.DistributedCacheKeyRequest.onReceived(DistributedCacheKeyRequest.CDB:12)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.daemon.queueProcessor.service.Grid.onMessage(Grid.CDB:9)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.daemon.queueProcessor.service.Grid.onNotify(Grid.CDB:136)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.daemon.queueProcessor.service.grid.DistributedCache.onNotify(DistributedCache.CDB:3)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.Daemon.run(Daemon.CDB:42)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)
Caused by: java.lang.IllegalStateException: the node has already been removed
at com.tangosol.util.AbstractSparseArray$Crawler.remove(AbstractSparseArray.java:1274)
at com.tangosol.net.cache.OldCache.evict(OldCache.java:580)
at com.tangosol.net.cache.OldCache.containsKey(OldCache.java:171)
at com.tangosol.net.cache.ReadWriteBackingMap.containsKey(ReadWriteBackingMap.java:597)
at com.tangosol.coherence.component.util.daemon.queueProcessor.service.grid.DistributedCache.onContainsKeyRequest(DistributedCache.CDB:25)
... 7 more
2009-12-03 11:50:10.834/6.281 Oracle Coherence GE 3.5.2/463p2 <D4> (thread=ShutdownHook, member=1): ShutdownHook: stopping cluster node
2009-12-03 11:50:10.834/6.281 Oracle Coherence GE 3.5.2/463p2 <D5> (thread=Cluster, member=1): Service Cluster left the clusterBest regards
Jan -
Want to get a recordable signal
I recently purchase an M-audio fastrack pro audio interface and attempted to configure it into audition , but i have yet to
get a recordable signal . could you walk me through the steps in trying to get a signal.
I wanted to know if it was possible to record into the Adobe Audition 3 software in 16 bit quality vs. the standard amount available
now?
Will Adobe Audition 3.0 recogninze my interface ( int he device properties tab), to do some work in edit and multitrackview, if say
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When you select New file in Audition you can select the sample rate you want to record at and the bit depth, 16 or 32. There is not much point in recording 16 bit as Audition works at 32 internally and it is better to keep your files at 32 bit to retain quality until you have finished processing them. You can then always save them out as 16 bit when you need them as such.
I am afraid you won't have much luck with using a Digi 002 as a source for Auditon although it can sometimes be made to work with some difficulty. Digidesign have so set up the 002 drivers to only really be compatible with ProTools. -
"Allow pages to choose own fonts" doesn't always work
I don't know if this is a problem with my browser preferences or with how the browser sees certain websites.
In Preferences, I have the box checked for "Allow pages to choose their own fonts, instead of my selections above." It's been checked for as long as I've been using Firefox. (Now using 6.14)
Now, for certain sites, this no longer works -- the site always comes up using my default fonts. Since I'm trying to tinker with CSS on one of these sites, it's very annoying not to be able to see what I'm doing. The page looks fine in Safari, so I'm fairly sure the problem is with my computer rather than the website.
This only happens with some sites. I have no idea why it would do this to some sites and not others. Some sites display their own fonts just fine.
This started happening just a few day ago (but before I upgraded to 6.14). Shutting down and rebooting the computer doesn't help. Clearing the browser cache and quitting and restarting Firefox didn't help either.At first I thought this wouldn't work -- but after I removed a troublesome font, and replaced it with another version of the SAME font, it actually did.
Bizarro. ;) -
Using a portable digital recorder with MAC
my bad - I just bought a panasonic portable digital recorder (about $70).
I was assuming I could use it with my Mac OS X - I don't know why I assumed that, I just took it for granted that these recorders were like digital cameras, they would automatically work with any computer that had a USB input.
wrong! when I connect it to the Mac, the recorder lights up and says "PC," as it is supposed to, and then, when I go into "about this mac" in the system profiler, it finds something on the USB port -
but other than than that, I don't know how to access what's on the recorder - it doesn't mount on the desktop like a camera (I assumed it would).
Can anyone help? is there any software out there that can read this little recorder - it's the Panasonic RR-US395.
thanks!
w
powerMac G5 single processor Mac OS X (10.4.1)What software came with ? I have used DVRs for years. The Olympus is what I currently use. Still using an older model though as I like the cradle type computer connection. All was fine until 10.4. I got it going on the MBP finally but gave up on the G4 as I don't boot it into 10.4 anymore and it does work fine in <3.9. It was a combination of timing on the install on the MBP. Plugged the unit in about 1/2 way through installation and had to have it connected and restarted before it actually worked. Random luck. It started asking me for a "key" number and no docs mentioned anything about this so I plugged the unit in and it continued to install. Installation would hang prior to this point if the device was plugged in first though.
Do any apps try to launch when connected? I would also check iTunes and GarageBand or any other video/audio apps that you may have to see if it's "recognized" and shows up there anywhere. Does iPhoto think a camera is connected? As by design that is/was Apple's goal with 10.4. Ultimate connectivity. Everything that connects to your machine these days is categorized by class or "family" of products. Specific products i.e. Panasonic RR-US395, are "children" This is supposed to simplify things for HW/SW manufacturers creating products that are compatible with the Mac and if they don't Mac should be able communicate with it anyway providing basic I/O functionality void of product specific features. Reading your post I realized I have not even seen a reference to DVRs as being a device "family" and I am wondering if this has something to do with it as the MBP required me to install DSS Player.
It is my contention that there is a serious issue with this I/O Kit (actually at the kernel level that the kit communicates with) and I am curious exactly what kind of "something" Profiler sees. A screen shot of the page w/ all the lists extended would be a great help.
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If there is no other way to connect it you can get a cable to go from the headphone jack on the DVR to the line in on the G5 record it w/ QT, GarageBand or the like.
If you still have 9 installed Simple text allows you to record sounds as well.
If you can return it Olympus does include Mac SW.
FWIW -
Digital recorder audio not syncing with video footage
Am I missing the obvious and easy method? When we shoot weddings, we always use a separate digital audio recorder and lav in the groom's pocket as a backup device. When it comes time to use that audio, it always goes askew compared to the video's audio. My guess is this happens because the video is only recording 29.97 frames per second and not a full 30, whereas the digital recorder provides a real-time recording. So, I end up having to shorten the audio every 10 seconds or so (by cutting out a few frames worth of audio) to keep everything synced. Is there a way to convert the audio from the pocket recorder to a video format so it will stay in sync without the need for editing it? Thanks!
I tried the resampling and even though original file was 44.1khz and I did convert it to 48khz, after a few minutes go by the file still goes seriously out of sync. It's a 34 minute audio clip, and by the end of the clip, its about 3-4 seconds out of sync. Any other thoughts? Thanks!
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Hello
I have a problem with MultiSIM 9.0.155.
I have built a circuit shown on this picture http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9764/digitaltoanalogcircutzw1.png.It is supposed to convert a digital (4bit) signal into analog signal (by it's value) so that when the digital signal is 0000 the analog value is 0V, and when it's for ex. digital sig is 1111 the analog value is of 2V... (this circuit uses a two 8-LED bars to indicate which "switch is on", and there isnt an analog signal output yet...)
This circut should work fine, but: When I tried to simulate a 4bit value with a four function generators (with frequencyes set to 1Hz, 2Hz, 4Hz, and 8Hz) the result is something like this:
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4268/digitaltoanalogcircutpoig1.png. In this picture the 4 keys are unpressed, and even then i still have a signal like that on the picture...??
I replaced four function gens with 4 batteries as a source but still the signal is the same??...-> an square alternating current with rising and falling edges...
Here is a closer picture with the batteries as a sourcehttp://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9616/digitaltoanalogsourcera4.png.
I don't know if something is not set properly (but it shouldn't get an square signal with the batteries as a source and the 4 keys unpressed), so if anyone sees what's the problem post an answer please..
I have tried to restart MultiSIM but still with the same results...Hi there,
I'm not sure how you created this schematic, but somehow, the 4 nets (a.k.a wires) that you are measuring have the same name! When Multisim starts simulating, it treats all wires by the same name as a single electrically connected wire. That is why you saw the same signal on all 4 channels of your oscilloscope. There is a way to fix this:
Right click on one of the wires, lets say the one you labeled bit 0
Click properties
Change the net name to b0
Click OK
Multisim is going to tell you that you have other wires that have the same name but are not connected. Tell Multisim that you do not want to change the names of the other wires.
Now repeat this for the remaining 3 bits, but name them b1, b2 and b3
I bet there may be other wires in your design that have the same problem. Unfortunately, I think you will have to manually go through your design and find them all.
If you ever find out what you did to make this happen, please let us know. We are always interested to know how to make Multisim easier to use so that mistakes like these don't happen.
Hope that helps!
Message Edited by yyao on 02-05-2009 05:26 PM
Yi
Software Developer
National Instruments - Electronics Workbench Group -
Digital Recorder with frequency response down to
The product spec's for all these recorders seem to indicate a low frequency capability down to 20 Hz (some are higher, I've not seen any lower). Do you know what determines this? Is the recorder actually capable of measuring signals down closer to DC...even Hz or 0. Hz would be good.
My goal is to record vibration signals using the external MIC input, which may be in this low frequency range. So I'm wondering if the 20 Hz limit arises from microphone/speaker limitations more than the recording circuitry itself.
Appreciating any help...What kind of digital recorder are you using? The SoundBlaster cards, for instance, are DC filtered, so that low frequencies are attenuated. But I've found that they're still measureable down to 5Hz or so, but 0.5Hz, probably not.
testsrus wrote:
The product spec's for all these recorders seem to indicate a low frequency capability down to 20 Hz (some are higher, I've not seen any lower). Do you know what determines this? Is the recorder actually capable of measuring signals down closer to DC...even Hz or 0. Hz would be good. My goal is to record vibration signals using the external MIC input, which may be in this low frequency range. So I'm wondering if the 20 Hz limit arises from microphone/speaker limitations more than the recording circuitry itself. Appreciating any help...
Message Edited by Katman on 2-5-2005 07:46 PM
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