RELAY BASE STATION

1) Should I have Airport EXTREME or EXPRESS connected to the modem, then use an additional Airport EXTREME or EXPRESS as relay base station? Could either Airport EXTREME or EXPRESS be a relay base station?
2) If I’m correct, the base station (connected to the modem), will connect to the RELAY BASE STATION which could additionally connect to other airports/ PC within its RANGE.
3) Which Airport is best to use as relay base?
Many thanks

1) Should I have Airport EXTREME or EXPRESS connected to the modem, then use an additional Airport EXTREME or EXPRESS as relay base station? Could either Airport EXTREME or EXPRESS be a relay base station?
You could have either connected to the modem. Either can be a relay base station.
2) If I’m correct, the base station (connected to the modem), will connect to the RELAY BASE STATION which could additionally connect to other airports/ PC within its RANGE.
That is correct.
3) Which Airport is best to use as relay base?
Depends on what you consider most important. If cost is, then the AirPort Express would be the best option.

Similar Messages

Wired network in office not seen from relay base station side

After a number of false starts I have a wireless set-up between my office and a remote location. All five Macs in the office are wired to a router which is wired to the cable modem. The Airport base station in the office is connected with the the WAN port to the router. Base station is set up as a WDS.
The remote base station is set up as a relay base station and WDS and we go wireless between it and the Mac at that location.
While I have a fast internet connection from the remote location, I expected to see the 5 Macs in the office and be able to connect to them. I don't.
What settings must I play with to be able to connect to Macs in the office? I might note that I don't see the remote computer from the office either. So the problem is both ways.
Tim

My question was answered on this other discussion list:
Getting Online and Networking
Thanks.

Remote base station versus relay base station

Okay, I give up. What is the difference between a remote and a relay? Can I daisy chain relay base stations? Will remote base stations act as "relays"? Are there any tricks to setting up the relay stations (remotes seem completely straightforward)? What are the positives and negatives of each?
MacBook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.7)

It seems like the distinction is more important if you want a wired connection to the station. If you're just tring to create a robust wireless network, can you do many remotes but just one relay? It seems like relay would be the way to go if there was no limitation on how many.

Adding remote/relay base stations

hello,
re network with AEBSn's and Airport Express's
is it possible to add more than 4 remotes to a network? In Airport Utility under the WDS page (participate in a network), it only seems to allow 4 remotes added when setting up the main base station.
can remotes be connected both by WDS and ethernet cable?
are relay stations required to be connected by ethernet cable or can they be WDS as well?
when setting up a relay base station, should the station also be listed as a remote under the main station?
finally, when do I use 'Participate' vs. 'Extend' a network under the wireless tab in Airport Utility?
I've read the article "Designing Airport Networks" and can't find clear answers to the above.
also, I do understand band width will suffer with multiple base stations
any help appreciated.
kind regards, Scott.

is it possible to add more than 4 remotes to a network? In Airport Utility under the WDS page (participate in a network), it only seems to allow 4 remotes added when setting up the main base station.
Yes, but indirectly. You can only add four remotes or four relays (with up to four remotes attached to the relay) to a main base station ... for a total of twenty-one base stations in a WDS.
can remotes be connected both by WDS and ethernet cable?
If a base station is connected by Ethernet, it is no longer participating in a WDS.
are relay stations required to be connected by ethernet cable or can they be WDS as well?
They would be wireless.
finally, when do I use 'Participate' vs. 'Extend' a network under the wireless tab in Airport Utility?
Use "Participate" when you are creating a WDS; use "Extend" when you want to extend a 802.11n network wirelessly with an additional 802.11n AirPort Extreme Base Station (AEBSn).

Did anyone else have all their wireless airport relay base stations suddenly reset at 4:30 PM August 5 2013? I had four base stations at my house reset simultaneously at 4:30.

At 4:30 PM today all of my secondary base stations simltaneously reset and lost connection. I am wondering what might have caused this. All of my eithernet connected stations remained green and connected but the relay stations sudenly lost any recognition for the network and required a restart to find one another angain. I will occasionally have one go off the reservation but all at exactely teh same time gives me pause to consider a bug.

I have the same proble, I posted my question but still nobody answers me yet. If you get to kknow something please let me know

Airport Extreme Base station + Relay Inquiry

My Airport Express Base station died on me so I replaced it with an Airport Extreme. I immediately noticed the lack of wds support and a simplified network setup option.
So I updated all my other relay stations to the newer network(Airport Express btw).
I found that the Ethernet connections weren't functioning anymore. Why?
To make it clear, I'm trying to connect a non-wireless computer to my wireless network through a relay station.
Is this still doable?

Yep! I can understand that!
Here are the basic setup steps for creating a WDS with a mixed (802.11n/g) base stations:
AEBSn - WDS Setup
(Note: To facilitate the WDS set up, place the base stations within near proximity of each other during the set up phase, and then relocate them to their desired locations when complete. Also, jot down the AirPort IDs (MAC addresses) for each of the base stations to be used in the WDS. The AirPort ID and is printed on the label on the bottom/side of the base station.)
Main Base Station Setup
o Click the AirPort status menu in the menu bar and choose the wireless network created by the base station you want to set up as the main base station.
o Open AirPort Utility (located in the Utilities folder in the Applications folder on a Macintosh computer, or in Start > All Programs > AirPort on a computer using Windows).
o Select the main base station, and choose Manual Setup from the Base
Station menu, or double-click the base station to open the configuration in a separate window.
o Enter the base station password if necessary. If the base station is using the
default password of public, you will not be prompted for a password.
o Click Wireless in the toolbar, and then choose “Participate in a WDS network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu.
o Click WDS and then choose “WDS main” from the WDS Mode pop-up menu.
o Select the “Allow wireless clients” checkbox if you want client computer to connect to this base station.
o Click the Add "+" button and enter the AirPort ID of the base station you want to connect to this base station.
o Click Update to send the new settings to the base stations in the WDS.
Remote Base Station Setup
o Click the AirPort status menu in the menu bar and choose the wireless network created by the base station you want to set up as a remote base station.
o Open AirPort Utility (in the Utilities folder in the Applications folder on a Macintosh computer, or in Start > All Programs > AirPort on a computer using Windows).
o Select the remote base station, and choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu.
o Enter the base station password, if necessary. If the base station is using the default password of public, you will not be prompted for a password.
o Enter the same network password as the main base station, if necessary.
o Click AirPort in the toolbar and click Wireless. Choose “Participate in a WDS network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and choose the same channel as the main base station from the Channel pop-up menu.
o Click WDS and choose “WDS remote” from the pop-up menu.
o Enter the AirPort ID of the main base station in the WDS Main field.
o Click Update to transfer the settings to the base station.
Relay Base Station Setup
o Click the AirPort status menu in the menu bar to join the wireless network created by the base station you want to set up as the relay base station.
o Open AirPort Utility (in the Utilities folder in the Applications folder on a Macintosh computer, or in Start > All Programs > AirPort on a computer using Windows).
o Select the relay base station, and choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu.
o If the base station is using the default password of public, you will not be prompted for a password.
o Enter the same network password as the main base station, if necessary.
o Click AirPort in the toolbar and click Wireless. Choose “Participate in a WDS network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and choose the same channel as the main base station from the Channel pop-up menu.
o Click WDS and choose “WDS relay” from the WDS Mode pop-up menu.
o Enter the AirPort ID of the main base station in the Main AirPort ID field.
o Click the Add "+" button and enter the AirPort ID of the remote base station this relay base station will connect to.
o Click Update to transfer the new WDS settings to the relay and remote base stations.
(ref: Pages 42-46 of "Designing AirPort Networks.)

Can I Use 802.11n Base Station and 802.11n AirPort Express in an 802.11 ac Time Capsule Main Base Station WDS Network?

I havea "wirelessly challenged" 2-story home and need to extend the range. Currently I have an 802.11n Main Base Station with an 802.11n Airport Express Remote. It's not getting the job done (upstairs connection is weak).
I am considering getting an 802.11ac Airport Time Capsule to help, even though I currently only have devices with 802.11n wireless connectivity (future-proof a little).
I an planning on setting up a Wireless Distribution System (WDS) Network:
1.) Setting up the Time Capsule as the Main Base Station connected to a Cable modem
2.) Reconfiguring and Setting up the current AirPort Extreme 802.11n as a Relay Base Station
3.) Reconfiguring and Setting up the current AirPort Express 802.11n as a Remote Station
I cannot "hard wire" one Base Statio to the other.
Will this work?

Will this work?
Unfortunately, no. WDS is a older, very inefficient way to extend the wireless network signal.
As such, newer operating systems like Lion, Mountain Lion and Mavericks do not even offer settings for this older WDS type of network.
In addition, the new Time Capsule has no capabilities to use WDS settings at all, even if you used a Mac with another operating system to try to set things up.
Even if it were possible to set up a WDS network, the speed on the network would be incredibly slow. As you know, WDS only operates at "g" wireless speed levels. Each "relay" or "remote" that you add to the network each cuts that bandwidth or speed in half.
With a WDS "main", "relay" and "remote", the network would be operating at about 14 Mbps......a tiny fraction of what the devices would be capable of providing normally.

Not seeing base station in Airport Admin Utility

Let me ask another question:
I have two Airport base stations 10 feet apart. One (A) is connected to the internet via the WAN port (all three status lights are on steady). The other (B) is set up as a relay base station (left and middle lights in operation).
From a computer with an Airport card I only see the relay unit (B) (I have normally seen both in the past). From the in-house wired network (cabled to the first Airport ) I only see the first base station (A).
Is this a sign that the first base station (A) is not transmitting a signal - don't see it with the computer with the airport card? Other than seeing a Airport station with a computer with a card, how do you know if it is transmitting? Do Airports fail (mine are a year old)?
Tim

This sounds a little like what I have experienced with my setup. Hope I can be of some help.
Because you indicated that things have worked in the past, lets assume for now that the network is configured correctly.
First, I would use the Admin utility to reset both base stations. This will take a few minutes and I would recommend giving everything about 10 minutes before you move on.
Now, unless the wired computer has an AirPort card installed, it will only find the ABS that it is wired to. If this is the case, you will need to use the wireless computer to check whether both stations are now available.
With any luck, both stations will now appear and you'll be up and running.
If not, Unplug both base stations for a few minutes and let them restart that way and check it again.
Good luck.

Anybody use an Apple AirPort Express Base Station (windows)

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MB...mco=MTIxODk3Mw
Im thinking about getting one of these and just wanting people opinions on it working with windows.
Just im a little confused, can i use it as a wireless router insted of my net gear, or will i still have to use my net gear router. My internet comes from the telephone wire if that helps?
Many thanks James

Hello jshrubb. Welcome to the Apple Discussions!
Since you didn't include the model of your Netgear router, it will be a little hard to determine if the AirPort Express Base Station (AX) could replace all of its functions.
So, here's what the AirPort Express is, and is not to help you decide:
o The AX is an Internet wireless router.
o The AX does not have a built-in modem: DSL, ADSL, Satellite or cable ... so one of these will still be required.
o The AX does not have a built-in Ethernet switch. It does have an Ethernet port, but that ports primary function is to be connected to the modem. However, it could be used to connect a wired client, but only if the AX is reconfigured as either a remote or relay base station in a Wireless Distribution System (WDS). The bottom-line here is that if you need to support wired clients, the AX would not be the appropriate choice for your network.
o The AX does support iTunes audio streaming so that when connected to either a pair of powered speakers or an audio system, you can stream iTunes to speakers wirelessly.

How to set up Express as a relay wireless base station ? System: Yosemite

How to set up Express as a relay wireless station ?
OS: Yosemite.
Airport utility: 6.3.4
Base station: Extreme, connected to modem. Configured as "create a wireless network"
Remote stations: Express, connected wireless as "extend a wireless network"
Need relay station between Extreme and Express units.
Airport utility doesn't give the "relay" option.

Sorry, but Apple does not provide a "relay" option. The network can only be extended one time, not two.
Move the remote station closer to the main station, or move the main station closer to the remote station, or move both closer together.

Is WDS connection to the relay or the base station?

I have an Airport Extreme that I use as a WDS network base station. I also have an Airport Express that I have configured as a WDS relay that is associated with the Airport Extreme base station. How do I tell if a computer using the network is connected to the base station or the relay? I have both PCs and Macs as wireless computers that use the WDS network.

Welcome to the discussions!
Open AirPort Utility and click on the AirPort Extreme on the left. On the right, you'll see some info about the device. Jot down the AirPort ID number.
Do the same for the AirPort Express.
On your Mac, move it close to the AirPort Express
Hold down the option key while you click on the fan shaped AirPort icon at the top of the screen
Look for the BSSID. That is the AirPort ID of the device that the Mac is currently connected to. If you see the AirPort ID of the AirPort Express, then the WDS setup is working correctly.
You can do the same thing testing near the AirPort Extreme.
Not sure how to get this info on the PC. If you click on the current wireless connection icon and look for Properties or similar, you might see the ID number of the device that the PC is currently connected to.
Message was edited by: Bob Timmons

Relay vs Remote Base Station

I have setup a WDS network with my airport express units.
What is the difference between a relay station and a remote base station in a WDS network?
Thanks
Mike

Yes, so lets say I have two aiport express. One of them is in my bedroom and it gets good reception from my router. And the second one is in lets say my den, and it doesn't get so good reception from my router, but it is close to my bedroom... Would I have both the bedroom and den airport express as REMOTE, or would i put the bedroom one as a RELAY and the den as a REMOTE, or the other way around. I have a WDS network setup.. or does it matter?
Thanks

Airport Extreme Base Station as Access Point/DHCP relay

Hi there, I am getting overly frustrated with both the hardware and its doc, so I figured I'd ask here...
Basically, I have a DSL modem that is also a router and wireless router (non-Apple, Westell) setup upstairs. What I would like to do is be able to use an AE to extend my network: the AE would be connected wirelessly to my network and provide ethernet ports for appliances in my basement... I have googled all over and only could find vague answers (either "sure you can" or "use bridge") but nothing detailed... I can't believe this cannot be done, does anyone have recommendations or detailed info?
Thanks in advance

Welcome to the discussions, vwillers!
The AirPort Extreme can "extend a wireless network", but only if that network has been created by another Apple(n) base station. You won't be able to configure it to "join" your network and have the ethernet ports active.
The Airport Express(n) has a very nice feature called ProxySTA. In brief, this allows the AirPort Express to "join" virtually any wireless network according to the article below. By checking the "enable ethernet clients" box, the ethernet port will be active. You could connect a simple switch to the ethernet port on the Express if you need more ports at the "remote" end.
Check the attached article for more info on the ProxySTA feature.
http://www.macworld.com/article/132754/2008/03/express11n.html

Configure TC and Airport Extreme Base Stations with different channels

I had to do some serious workarounds to use the Airport Extreme Base Stations as an access point with the same wireless network name primarily due to channel overlap. I thought I would post my results here since I didnt' find a good article online.
Also, I found the Snow Leopard verison (5.4.2) of the Airport Setup Utility far superior to Lion's Airport Utility (6.x) in terms of advanced setup.
Setup is a 3 flloor house where the 3 wired network locations have wireless overlap. The problem was that the access points would not hand off the wireless signal because the channels for each airport/TC were automatically set to the same channel. In non-apple setups, this is how you force a wireless client to switch access points (since the wireless software on your client/mac/windows can detect which access point is stronger and moves to the alternate channel.
Using apple's "Extend this wireless network" option removes any ability to manually configure wireless channels. I am writing this from memory, so feel free to ask questions and I will track this topic:
Procedure
Setup time capsule as your base station. Do all the setup for your wireless and guest networks. Manually configure the network and change the wireless channel to a specific channel for a/b/g networks (e.g., 3) and n networks (e.g, 167).
Plug your first airport extreme/access point into your wired network. Do not plug it into the "internet" ethernet plug, use one of the 3 ethernet switch locations
Use the airport utility to first configure it to "extend" your wired network.
Then, go in and reconfigure it manually in the airport utility. Choose the option to setup a "new network" and name the network the same as the TC wireless network name, security, etc.
Change the channel from "auto" to a different channel than the TC (e.g., 6 and 137).
Now go to the top tab and click on the "internet" icon
Go to the DHCP tab and change it to "bridge mode." This will tell the AE to not give out IP addresses (the TC will do this for you). If you get an error that the IP ranges conflict, you have not done this
Note that if you have a guest network setup, you will need to set this up on the AE as well.
Now test your airport setup. Take your client (macbook, iOS device) and connect to your network. Move to a spot near the TC and pull up a web page. Keep an eye on the signal strength and beginv moving toward the AE. Refresh the page as you move around. You should at some point see the signal strength increase. Refresh your page again. You should be now connected to to the AE. I have found that Macbooks do a better job than iOS devices because you get an extra signal bar to measure strength, and they have larger antennas which allows you to better measure problems with handoff
Another test you can do is to start backing up on your TC and then test the move. The handoff will truly show you that the TC is handling the process but the AE is relaying to the TC for backup.
If you need to setup another AE, simply follow setups 3-10.
I hope this helps others. I've done this setup 100 times on Linksys devices and although they are cumbersome, they at least allow me to do this setup much more quickly and easily than the apple products.

I had to do some serious workarounds to use the Airport Extreme Base Stations as an access point with the same wireless network name primarily due to channel overlap. I thought I would post my results here since I didnt' find a good article online.
Also, I found the Snow Leopard verison (5.4.2) of the Airport Setup Utility far superior to Lion's Airport Utility (6.x) in terms of advanced setup.
Setup is a 3 flloor house where the 3 wired network locations have wireless overlap. The problem was that the access points would not hand off the wireless signal because the channels for each airport/TC were automatically set to the same channel. In non-apple setups, this is how you force a wireless client to switch access points (since the wireless software on your client/mac/windows can detect which access point is stronger and moves to the alternate channel.
Using apple's "Extend this wireless network" option removes any ability to manually configure wireless channels. I am writing this from memory, so feel free to ask questions and I will track this topic:
Procedure
Setup time capsule as your base station. Do all the setup for your wireless and guest networks. Manually configure the network and change the wireless channel to a specific channel for a/b/g networks (e.g., 3) and n networks (e.g, 167).
Plug your first airport extreme/access point into your wired network. Do not plug it into the "internet" ethernet plug, use one of the 3 ethernet switch locations
Use the airport utility to first configure it to "extend" your wired network.
Then, go in and reconfigure it manually in the airport utility. Choose the option to setup a "new network" and name the network the same as the TC wireless network name, security, etc.
Change the channel from "auto" to a different channel than the TC (e.g., 6 and 137).
Now go to the top tab and click on the "internet" icon
Go to the DHCP tab and change it to "bridge mode." This will tell the AE to not give out IP addresses (the TC will do this for you). If you get an error that the IP ranges conflict, you have not done this
Note that if you have a guest network setup, you will need to set this up on the AE as well.
Now test your airport setup. Take your client (macbook, iOS device) and connect to your network. Move to a spot near the TC and pull up a web page. Keep an eye on the signal strength and beginv moving toward the AE. Refresh the page as you move around. You should at some point see the signal strength increase. Refresh your page again. You should be now connected to to the AE. I have found that Macbooks do a better job than iOS devices because you get an extra signal bar to measure strength, and they have larger antennas which allows you to better measure problems with handoff
Another test you can do is to start backing up on your TC and then test the move. The handoff will truly show you that the TC is handling the process but the AE is relaying to the TC for backup.
If you need to setup another AE, simply follow setups 3-10.
I hope this helps others. I've done this setup 100 times on Linksys devices and although they are cumbersome, they at least allow me to do this setup much more quickly and easily than the apple products.

Solution to Airport Extreme Base Station + Airport Express networking probs

I've been investigating this for 3 straight days after inadvertently destabilizing my network. There are tons of posts discussing a variety of issues, all of which seem related. My goal here is to provide links to other relevant posts and explain what I ended up doing to get things to work.
First, the background. You can skip below to SOLUTION if you don't really care... However, I highly recommend you take the time to read everything, as you'll get other useful information in the BACKGROUND section. I'm guessing many of you have similar, related problems so BACKGROUND might help provide context (and solutions) to some things you are seeing...
MY SETUP:
AirPort Extreme Base Station (AEBS) of type b/g (round one, not square one), connects to the cable modem, and creates a WDS network that is then shared across two standard AirPort Express (AEX) units (100megabit, not the gigabit ones). One AEX serves as a relay unit that accepts clients, the other serves as a remote unit that also accepts clients. The intent is to show a single network throughout the house and let users log on to one network and move between networking units without having to switch from network to network.
I have a variety of networked devices throughout the house all running on the same network (2 Mac Pros, a Powerbook G4, a Mac Mini, an Apple TV, a Windows XP laptop, two iPhones, two wifi printers, and a 5-unit Sonos system, plus the AEBS and two AEXs). Yeah, I'm a geek.
The Mac Pros are both running 10.4.11, and the Powerbook is running 10.5.2.
AEBS is running firmware 5.7
AEXs are running firmware 6.3
All Macs were initially accessing configs via the recently released AirPort Utility 5.3.1. More on that later.
BACKGROUND:
I've had this network setup working for about a year now. Recently, I've been having poor network performance problems and came to the conclusion it was a LAN problem (ie. problem with my home network, as opposed to with my ISP). Upon initial investigation, I began by looking at my networking logs (via AirPort Utility 5.3.1). You get to those by selecting the unit in question, choosing "Manual Configuration", the selecting the "Advanced" tab up top with the "Logging and SNMP" sub-tab. Click the "Logs and Statistics" button therein for log details from that unit.
The first thing I noticed was "Administrative access denied to ff80::xxxxxxxxx" messages - a lot of them. I didn't recognize the ff80:: address in question, and so became concerned it was someone outside the network trying to hack one (or all) of the AEBS/AEX units. You can see threads discussing that investigation here:
"Hack or panic?" - http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1438486
"Administrative access denied" - http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1438865
Long and short of it is that the recent AirPort Utility 5.3.1 release (current as of March 13) seems to have problems (keychain) when attempting to access the AEBS and AEX units. The "Administrative access denied" logs actually refer to the client machine you are using when you try to read the logs. The ff80::xxxxxx address is simply the IPv6 address for the machine you are using; if you turn off IPv6 on your client machine, that address should switch over to begin showing a regular IP address instead (something like 10.0.1.xxx), which makes it easier to associate the IP to the machine. I explain how to deactivate IPv6 on both Tiger (10.4.x) and Leopard (1.5.x) here:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6814978#6814978
Anyway, in the process of investigating the "Administrative access denied" problem, I began tinkering with my AEX settings. Specifically, I ended up performing a hard factory reset (unplug unit, plug back in while holding down the little button with paper click/pen for ~10-15 seconds until light flashes green 4x then reverts to amber/yellow/orange). I began reconfiguring my entire WDS network using the newly updated AirPort Utility 5.3.1, and that's when the trouble started.
(If you are having problems seeing either your AirPort Extreme Base Station or AirPort Express, read this:)
In short, each time I thought I had properly configured things and then confirmed settings (kicking off a reboot on the AEX unit) the unit would restart with new settings but not properly join the WDS and not show up in the AirPort Utility list of units. More specifically, I would start with a "wiped" AEX and see both the AEBS and the AEX in my AirPort Utility list, but upon confirm/reboot the AEX would disappear and the AEBS would remain. However, that's not 100% correct. It seems that sometimes I would end up with the AEX and NOT the AEBS. Because both the AEX and AEBS were theoretically "hosting" the same network name (remember, WDS shares the network name across units) my auto-login feature for my client computer's wifi seemed to "jump on" whichever unit it first saw hosting the default network name for my house. In other words, it seems what was really happening was that I was ending up with two separate networks in my house, both with the same name but not talking to each other (as opposed to two units sharing the same network name and internet connection). The AEX would continue to blink orange/amber/yellow (whichever color it is to your eyes ) because it could not grab an internet connection -- and if I was on the network through that AEX unit I would not get internet. But if i was connected through the AEBS I would continue to have internet access. As far as my client computer (my Mac Pro) was concerned, I was on the home wifi network even if I was on the AEX rather than the AEBS -- it would show the home wifi network name as the name of the network it had connected to. But when I opened the AirPort Utility 5.3.1 I would see only the AEX (if I was connected through it) or the AEBS (if connected through it) -- a clear indication that the units were not truly sharing the same network.
I tried rebooting and reconfiguring the AEBS and AEX about 50 times (literally). I even tracked down an older version of the AirPort Utility 5.2.1 via this thread (see Tesserax post):
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1067565
One interesting thing re: 5.2.1 is that the "Administrative access denied" errors summarized above disappeared. As explained in a post reference above, the going theory is that this a permissions/keychain problem new and unique to AirPort Utility 5.3.1. However, even though 5.2.1 does have a slightly different interface with different settings, I still couldn't get the WDS to work.
EVENTUALLY, I came across this post:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1422527
MuaddibOfArrakis walks through setting up a WDS from scratch, and the workflow is different than what is possible with either AirPort Utility 5.3.1 or 5.2.1. He's doing it with the old version of AirPort Admin Utility, which I fortunately saved a copy of many moons ago when I had somewhat-related problems with my WDS (since forgotten). In fact, it's a lot easier. What's nice about this older app is that it literally does the heavy lifting of "connecting" the AEBS and AEX units during the configuration -- it reboots both at the same time as the config is happening, and lets you choose from a list of available units to "add" to your WDS network. In short, it's a FAR SUPERIOR workflow even though some of the GUI isn't as intuitive as the newer AirPort Utilities that were designed to replace it.
SOLUTION:
If still have a copy of the AirPort Admin Utility follow the instructions from MuaddibOfArrakis here:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1422527
If not, try setting up your WDS network using AirPort Utility (hereafter AU), with these configs (take from my now-working network), as viewed through AirPort Utility 5.3.1.
I. Configure your AEBS.
Select the AEBS from AU, and choose "Manual Setup"
1. Under the AirPort tab up top:
a. Under "Base Station" sub-tab:
i.) assign a name for that specific unit, so you can later identify the specific unit from the list of units -- this is the name that will show up beside the unit in the AU list of configurable units. You can name it something like "kitchen", or "office". I have mine numbered, so XXXXXv1, XXXXXv2 etc where the XXXXX is the name of the shared network and the numbers help me tell the units apart. Just be sure you name each uniquely, and if you have several you might write the name on the unit itself.
ii.) pick a password for logging into that unit. This is different from the network password, its a security check to get in and change the configs on this unit later. Be sure to remember it in your keychain for the sake of simplicity, and write it down somewhere secure.
iii.) if you choose to set time automatically, pick a location that you will use consistently across all your units. I use time.apple.com.
iv.) uncheck "Allow configuration over Ethernet WAN port" unless you want to be able to remotely mess with settings -- which you almost certainly do not need to do.
v.) I left the "Options" button alone - no settings there.
b. Under the "Wireless" sub-tab:
i.) Wireless Mode: "Participate in a WDS network"
ii.) Network Name: this will be the name of your wifi network shared by all units, so be sure to remember what you pick. If you are already connected to this AEBS via wifi while you are making these changes, then you can use the same wifi name you already have set up -- you don't have to change it. Note that if you DO change it, after reboot your will LOSE connection to the network and have to reset your wifi settings on your client machine to match the new network/password in order to be able to access the network.
iii.) pick a Radio Mode. I'm using b/g compatible. You'll want to do the same, unless you are on the new gigabit AEX. I'm pretty sure about this, but not 100% -- others post if I'm wrong.
iv.) choose a Channel. This can be a more complicated procedure, but for now just pick something consistent across all your units. If you get everything working and find that you're having intermittent network problems, you could later try changing your Channel -- it can pick up interference from phones, microwaves, etc and changing it can help.
v.) I have wireless security set to WPA/WPA2 Personal.
vi.) Wireless Password is the password for access to your wifi network (not your unit itself). If you are connecting to your AEBS via wifi while doing this config, then you can use the same password you have already set up. Pick a good one unless you want other folks jumping on your wifi and stealing your bandwidth and/or credit card numbers . Remember it in your keychain and write it down someplace secure, because you'll need it for the other units too. As noted above, note that if you DO change it, after reboot your will LOSE connection to the network and have to reset your wifi settings on your client machine to match the new network/password in order to be able to access the network.
vii.) Click the "Wireless Options" button. I have my multicast rate set to 2mbps, transmit at 100%, timeout at 1 hour, and i have checked the "Create a closed network". This last step keeps your network from advertising itself to the outside world. Users can only find it by explicitly typing the network name into their wifi settings (e.g. AirPort -> Other... then enter Network Name, Security and Password). I leave interference robustness unchecked.
c. Under the "WDS" sub-tab:
i.) the AEBS should have it's WDS Mode set to "WDS main".
ii.) Check the "allow wireless clients" box on the AEBS; this lets you connect client machines to it directly too.
iii.) hit the plus button to add the Remote system (AEX). There are two types of configs for the AEX's - "remote" and "relay". Assuming you have 3 units like me (2 AEX and 1 AEBS) the key question is whether you will place each AEX within direct reach of the AEBS (remotes), or if you will have one AEX in the middle connecting to an AEBS on one side and an AEX on the other -- where the furthest AEX is out of reach from the AEBS (remote) and connects only to the AEX in the middle (relay). I'm using a relay setup. If you are using relay, you can still set up the AEX relay to serve client computers too -- it doesnt have to JUST relay. More on that later. For now, you want to add only AEX units that will talk DIRECTLY to the AEBS. So if you have a setup like mine, just add one (the one in the middle - the relay). If you have two remotes connecting directly to the AEBS, you will add them both here. When you hit the '+' button it will ask for both an ID and description. For description I use the name I'm assigning to each unique unit (as above, "kitchen" or XXXXXv1 or whatever you use). For AirPort ID, use the number listed on the AEX unit itself (not the number for "Ethernet", also on the AEX unit).
d. Under the "Access" sub-tab:
i.) I have it set to "Not Enabled". I'd suggest you start that way too, and you can go change it later if you get everything working correctly.
2. Under the "Internet" tab up top:
a. Under the "Internet Connection" sub-tab:
i.) Connect Using: Ethernet
ii.) Configure IPv4: Using DHCP
iii.) Ethernet WAN Port: Automatic (Default)
iv.) Connection Sharing: Share a public IP address
b. Under the "DHCP" sub-tab:
i.) DHCP Beginning Address: 10.0 . 1 . 2
ii.) DHCP Ending Address: 10.0.1.200
DHCP Lease: 4 hours
c. Under the "NAT" sub-tab:
i.) nothing should be checked;
ii.) nothing under Port Mappings either
3. Under the "Printers and Advanced" tabs up top:
Nothing special needs to be configured there.
THAT'S IT.
=============
I. Configure your AEX(s)
Select the AEX from AU, and choose "Manual Setup"
1. Under the "AirPort" tab up top:
a. Under "Base Station" sub-tab:
i.) pick a unique name for this unit, same logic as for AEBS
ii.) pick a password specific for accessing this unit, same logic as for AEBS
iii.) Set time automatically: be sure to use the same settings used on your AEBS
iv.) Options: no need to set any
b. Under "Wireless" sub-tab:
i.) Wireless Mode: Participate in a WDS network
ii.) Network Name: same name used for AEBS, this is the name of your wifi network
iii.) Channel: same as AEBS
iv.) All settings here (those above, plus Security and Password & in Options button) should be the same as for AEBS settings on this tab
c. Under the "WDS" sub-tab:
...if AEX is "in the middle" (as described above):
i.) WDS Mode: WDS relay
ii.) Allow wireless clients: check (unless you only want to bridge between the edges without letting folks connect on this AEX in the middle)
iii.) WDS Main: set to the AirPort ID (aka MAC address) for the AEBS. You can find it on the bottom of the AEBS, either labeled as such or at the bottom beside the logo of a wireless signal (square logo, with semi-circles mimicing a radio signal).
iv.) WDS Remotes: click the '+' to add any AEX's that will connect to this relay rather than directly to the AEBS. Same deal as above, use the name in the description and use the AirPort ID from the side of the AEX (not the Ethernet ID).
.....if AEX is connecting to a relay ("on the end", as above) or if there is no relay and AEX connects directly to the AEBS:
i.) WDS Model: WDS remote
ii.) Allow wireless clients: checked
iii.) WDS Main: if connected to a relay, use the AirPort ID of the relay AEX. If connected to the AEBS directly, use the AirPort ID of the AEBS
d. Under the "Access" sub-tab:
i.) MAC Address Access Control: Not Enabled (for now, you can change later)
2. Under the "Internet" tab up top:
a. Under the "Internet Connection" sub-tab:
i.) Connect Using: AirPort (WDS) -- should be selected and gray'ed out.
ii.) Configure IPv4: Using DHCP
iii.) Ethernet WAN Port: Automatic (Default)
iv.) Connection Sharing: Off (Bridge Mode)
3. Under the Music, Printers and Advanced tabs up top:
Nothing special needs to be configured there. You can worry about AirTunes settings later...
That should be it. I'd recommend setting up the AEBS first, then the relay (if applicable), then the remotes. Initially, you can bring each unit in the same room with you for configuring. After configured and restarted the AEX should blink then turn solid green. If it turns green you should be good to go.
HOPE THIS HELPS. As noted above, I did not config through AirPort Utility 5.3.1 so I haven't tested this procedure through that app. However, after getting my network to work I went back and transposed all settings into this post to help others. Please provide feedback on whether or not this is working, so we can collectively try to move towards a setup procedure that works for everyone....
Good luck!
Message was edited by: b.byrd

I'm not convinced that the problem lies in Airport Utility. This same thing was happening to me, nearly exactly as you describe it. The thing is that with me, the problems clearly started when I updated the firmware in my Airport Express (n). That's when all the wacky stuff started happening. Sometimes it would show up in AU, sometimes it didn't and even if it didn't, I could still access the internet through it.
But as you said, the problems got really bad when another Express (b/g) was put on the network with it. Even when it did work, the (b/g) would make it impossibly slow.
You know more about this than me, and clearly have more patience if you've restarted the network fifty times. I gave up at about ten.
In any case, your solution is more of a work around and if you're still having that slow connection problem, I'm not sure you've got it. But thanks for your reporting of this. At least I know I'm not crazy.

RELAY BASE STATION

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