SATA disc's on a Xserve RAID?

Is it possible to use Serial ATA disc's (SATA) 500GB on a Xserve RAID with 4 Ultra ATA disc's of 500 GB?

No. The XServe RAID uses ATA disk and are not interchangable with other bus technologies.

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Software raid on sata discs (solved)

Hi all.
I'm trying to set up software raid, following this guide: http://wiki2.archlinux.org/index.php/In … d-or%20LVM
My setup is sda & sdb.
/dev/md/0 /boot (sda1 & sdb1)
/dev/md/1 swap (sda2 & sdb2)
/dev/md/2 / (sda3 & sdb3)
/dev/md/3 /mnt/storage (sda4 & sdb4)
I'm running it as raid level 0 and reiserfs.
Partitioning the drives, setting up raid arrays, making file system, installing and configuring the system, copying the grub part, mounting devfs, proc and chrooting into /mnt works whit out any problem.
My problem begins whit setting up grub.
grub> root (hd0,0) (and other combos) gives me :file system unknown partition type 0xfd.
grub> setup (hd0) (and other combos) gives me :error 17 cannot mount selected partition.
I used to run an hda disc as swap & / and my sata discs as a large md/0 storage whit no problem, but after running hdparm -t on the devices, I thought why let it go to waste storing stuff that I don't use regularly.
/cat /proc/mdstat gives me:
Personalities : [linear] [raid0] [raid1] [raid5] [multipath] [raid6] [raid10]
md1 : active raid0 sdb2[1] sda2[0] 1959680 blocks 64k chunks
md2 : active raid0 sdb3[1] sda3[0] 17382144 blocks 64k chunks
md3 : active raid0 sdb4[1] sda4[0] 293041536 blocks 64k chunks
md0 : active raid0 sdb1[1] sda1[0] 192512 blocks 64k chunks
unused devices: <none>
both under the grub install session and booting up arch on my hda disk.
I disconnected my hda during the attempt to configure the software raid.
So if anyone knows what I'm doing wrong, please let me know.
PS: If the problem lies with grub and sata disks in software raid setup, I wouldn't mind making an boot partition on my hda and use the rest for a backup and important files drive, I just dont want to destroy my working arch install, just to find it wont work anyway.
Thanks.

If anyone is interested, I finally got it up and running with some small modifications.
Instead of whats in the wiki.
root (hd0,0)
kernel /boot/vmlinuz26 root=/dev/md/2 ro
I used.
root (hd1,0)
kernel /vmlinuz26 root=/dev/md/2 ro
(my sdb is detected as drive 0 and sda as drive 1)
And it works 8)

Suggested methods for full backup of XServe RAID data

I know this is only peripherally related to the discussion topic, but since every other suggestion posted here is followed by the disclaimer that you should make a full backup of your data before proceeding with any major operations on your RAID arrays, I'd like to know what more experienced admins do in order to create a full backup for reasonably fast recovery in case of substantial data loss during maintenance/repair.
Our current "backup" availability is incremental optical disc archival (our data is mostly "write-once"), but this isn't entirely practical for recovery since it's over a terabyte of data. Since the connected server has a free hot-swappable SCSI drive bay as well as an interface for external SCSI devices, not to mention the fiber channel and ethernet interfaces, the options that I'd consider in order would be:
1. A handful of 150-500 Gb SCSI hard drives, rotated out of the hot-swappable bay
2. An external tape drive attached to the SCI interface (with appropriate tape size, maybe the LTO-2 with 200Gb native capacity?)
3. Some other external SCSI storage device
4. Larger optical disc archival (I hear there are technologies arriving in the near future)
5. Network-based option; remote seems impractical due to sheer size, but perhaps local?
The idea is to make a full backup (long-term solutions are superior of course) of 1-2 Tb of data on the XServe RAID before attempting major surgery. Suggestions for common, accepted, tested, efficient methods for accomplishing this would be greatly appreciated. I apologize if this thread isn't on-topic enough for some of you.
-Brian

Brian,
Tape IMO is kinda yucky (to steal a term from your average 3 year old). It's fairly slow to back up to, it's very slow to restore, and it's actually not that reliable by itself (I worked with a large enterprise customer who said their backups were successful about 70% of the time (!!!)).
That said, tape has the advantage that you can offsite it and archive it very cheaply, and the media are fairly cheap, so you can make lots of backups, so if one fails, you probably can restore the data from another tape.
Disks are more expensive initially, but end up being pretty reliable, and you get a lot more flexibility (plus, they're fast).
An emerging "best of both worlds" backup strategy is what's called disk to disk to tape, where you typically back up to another large "disk," for example a second Xserve RAID. Data is then backed up from the second disk to tape, which is taken offsite... thus tape is used for what it's best at (offsite archival). Restore can be from disk in most cases, which is 10-20x faster than restoring from tape. People use software packages like Netvault's Bakbone or Atempo's Time Navigator, which can handle the whole process, and it works quite well. The backup disks (e.g. the RAID) can be onsite, or can be at a backup site a couple KM away, attached via optical (this is preferable, for DR reasons).
For cases where a second Xserve RAID is prohibitively expensive, cheaper (and slower) RAID 5 enclosures like Wiebetech's RAIDtech can provide a large (say, 1.6 TB) RAID 5 volume, accessible over FW800 or SATA (not sure if they have a SATA-based one yet).

Clarification on how to use Xserve Raid and Fibre Channel without xsan.

First let me apologize for not responding earlier to your response, I tend to get busy and then forget to check back here.
Tod, the answer to your question is No, only one computer is accessing the xserve raid files at any one time and that is via Fibre Channel. However I do have the xserve raids set up as share points via ethernet.
Maybe I should turn that off and only access the files with the one computer that can connect via fibre channel.
I never thought of that. I will try that while I await for your answer, thanks again.
Todd Buhmiller
I have the following setup:
Xserve: 2x2Ghz Dual Core Intel Xeon, 5Gb of Ram, Running 10.5.8 Leopard Server
Xserve Raid with firmware version 1.5.1/1.51c on both controllers, and
Qlogic Sanbox 5600
Apple Fibre Channel Cards in Xserve, and Mac Pro Tower; Apple 2 Port 4Gbs Fibre Channel Card
Mac Pro Tower-Quad Core Intel Xeon 2.8Ghz, 16Gb of Ram, Running Snow Leopard 10.6.4
Here is the problem.
The directory for the xserve raids keep getting corrup, and I use disc warrior to rebuild them. Is there a way to keep the directories from getting corrupt? I am a few pieces of equipment before I can build an Xsan as that is the ultimate goal, but until then, I just need to be able to have the raids funciton as storage without having to rebuild the directories all of the time.
Anybody have any suggestions?
Thanks
Todd Buhmiller
Widescreen Media
Calgary, Alberta Canada
Tod Kuykendall
Posts: 1,237
From: San Diego
Registered: Oct 11, 2000
Re: Xserve Raid Mounts, Corrupt Directory tired of rebuilding directory
Posted: Jun 27, 2010 1:25 PM in response to: Todd Buhmiller
Are multiple computers accessing the same data on the RAID at the same time?
If so then NO. This is the source of your data corruption and I'm surprised if you were able to get all your data back every time if this is how you've been running your system. Each fibre channel assumes it has full and sole control of every volume it has mounted, no data arbitration is practiced and data corruption will occur if this assumption is wrong.
The only way this set-up will work is to use partitions or LUN masks so the volumes are accessed by one computer at any time. As long as one computer relinquishes control before another mounts it you will dodge arbitration issues but this is a dangerous game. If you screw up and mount an already mounted volume - and there is no easy way to tell if a volume is mounted - corruption will then occur. Sharing data simultaneous at fibre speeds is what XSAN does and to do this you need it.
HTH,
=Tod
Intel Xserve, G5 XServes, XRAID, Promise

+The xserve raids will mount automatically to any computer that I connect the qlogic fc switch to+
This is source of the corruption to your data. Any computer that attaches to a drive/partition via fibre channel assumes that it alone is in control of the drive and data corruption is inevitable.
+Is that the issue, should I disconnect the xserve from the fc switch and leave it connected via ethernet?+
Short answer: YES. The ethernet connections are fine because the server is controlling the file arbitration through the sharing protocol. Fibre channel connections assumes complete control over the partition and no arbitration of the file access is performed. It's like two people independently driving trying to drive the same car to different locations.
Depending on your set-up it is possible for the two machines to see and use different parts of the Xserve RAID storage but they cannot access the same areas without SAN doing the arbitration.
Hope that's clear,
=Tod

Maximum size for Xserve RAID modules

What is the maximum storage size for an Xserve RAID module?
Years ago, an Xserve RAID was out of my price range. Now, I'm looking into getting one on eBay and playing around with it.
I have been making Mirrored RAIDS with Western Digital 3 TB My Books.
Can I put 3 TB drives in an Xserve RAID? It probably depends on the controller firmware or something.
Thanks for thinking about this.
Doc

Short answer is no, you can't.
The XServe RAID has IDE drives mounted in a carrier. The maximum size drive shipped by Apple, supported under 1.5.1 firmware on the controllers is 750GB, though finding these on the used market is farily difficult. Aside from that, any IDE drive can be put in the carriers. If your unit has 'blank' slots, these are indeed just blank slots - you will need to get carriers / drive modules if you want disks in the slot if that makes sense.
People on the Internet, myself included, have experimented down the route of using IDE to SATA bridges in the carriers with 2.5" SATA drives which are more freely available. This way you can utilise cheap drives in your drive modules, or even SSDs (which offer little benefit I have found). Some users have had success with 1TB 2.5" SATA drives in this method, but not with anything bigger it seems. Myself, I've had suceess with 500GB SATA and 256GB SSD with this hacky method.
Hope that helps.

Maximum SATA Drive Capacity for G5 Xserve?

Getting ready to build a RAID 5 in a G5 XServe.
I've got some empty ADM trays, but read somewhere that the G5 XServe can only handle drives up to 500GB?
Is that true or just the old literature that didn't reflect the fact that you can get SATA up to 1 TB currently?
I'd much prefer to build the RAID 5 with three 1TB drives than be limited to 500GB per drive.

You can use 1TB drives in Xserve G5's if you like. What you read is simply the state of drive sizes when the G5 was end-of life'd.
Unlike the Xserve Raid which, as an end-of-life product suffers from nearly impossible to find drive modules and discontinued firmware development, the Xserve's benefit from the ongoing OS development updated list of hardware support.
That said, the risk is on your side when using third party products. I tried Raid5 with Hitachi 1TB drives which work. By default I would stay away from using drive makes/models that Apple isn't using. Or buy 1TB Apple drive modules at the great price of $449.
Hope this helps..

How to connect multiple Xserve Raid for Best Performance

I like to get an idea how to connect multiple Xserve Raid to get the best performance for FCP to do multiple stream HD.

Again, for storage (and retrieval), FireWire 400 should be fast enough. If you are encoding video directly to the external drive, then FireWire 800 would probably be beneficial. But as long as the processing of the video is taking place on the fast internal SATA drive, and then you are storing files on the external drive, FireWire 400 should be fine.
Instead of speculating about whether it will work well or not, you need to set it up and try your typical work flow. That is the only way you will know for sure if performance is acceptable or not.
For Time Machine, you should use a single 1.5TB drive. It is likely that by the time your backup needs comes close to exceeding that space, you will be able to buy a 3TB (or larger) single drive for the same cost. Also, I would not trust a RAID where the interaction between the two drives is through two USB cables and a hub. If your primary storage drive fails, you need your backup to be something that is simple and reliable.
Oh, and there should be no problem with the adapter, if you already have it and it works.
Edit: If those two external drives came formatted for Windows, make sure you have use Disk Utility Partition tab to repartition and reformat the drive. When you select the drive in the Disk Utility sidebar, at the bottom of the screen +Partition Map Scheme+ should say *GUID Partition Table*. When you select the volume under the drive in the sidebar, Format should say *Mac OS Extended (Journaled)*.

Dumb?? How do I tell if an XServe Raid is a G4 or a G5??

I've looked all over the RAID Admin.... Is there any way to do a "Get Info"??
It's NOT listed in the "Info" screen.
Thanks

>So any Apple Drive Module will work??
With the latest XServe RAID firmware and ATA drive modules, yes.
The 'original' XServe RAID came with 180GB drives. Then they added support for 250GB drives, then 400GB and now 500GB.
With each new drive size there's been a corresponding firmware update. The updates add support for the new drive size plus new features.
So if your XServe RAID is running the latest firmware you can use any of those drive sizes. The only other consideration is SATA vs. ATA. The XServe RAID uses ATA Drive Modules, unlike the SATA Drive Modules employed by the XServe G5 - you can't take a drive module from a G5 and put it in an XServe RAID.

Does the original Xserve Raid (2003) support 750Gb drives.

Is the latest firmware compatible with the original Xserve Raid, thus supporting 750Gb discs?
Thanks in advance.

Hi
Short answer is yes. Refer to this Article:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1219
Tony

XSERVE RAID - Powercut!

HI folks,
Earlier today I had a very brief powercut. When I went to the server room, my XSERVE RAID connected to my XSERVE was starting up again. However I noticed that the disc activity lights on right side of the XSERVE were off. The green light for the lower controller on the front (above the discs) and on the back was flashing green.
So what I hope someone will let me know is:
1: Are the discs dead?
2: Is the controller corrupted or needing replaced?
3: Or do I just have to do a proper shutdown and restart of the RAID?
The left array on the RAID is working fine and is mounted on the desktop of the XSERVE it's connected to.
Any help would be most appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Hi Guys,
Well nothing too bad happened! When I finally plucked up the courage to restart (pulling the plug since I couldn't connect via raid admin), everything started up fine!
Thanks

Finding replacement xServe RAID Drive Modules for sale

I've just started a new IT job and inherited an xServe (snow leopard) and xServe RAID
I'm not an expert on either. I've some experience with OS X Server, but I've never been a full on server admin.
One drive is dead. I believe they're 500GB units in the first six bays.
I also believe this is the most recent xServe RAID hardware. Purchased in 2008 or so.
So, first, where on earth would I buy a replacement?
And assuming that's possible, what are people's suggestions for buying drive modules for the other bays, and replacement parts for the xServe itself (power suppies, etc.).
Thanks!

first of all i don't have experience with proprietary Apple products, but typically i believe you can buy any hard drive so long as the interface is compatible (SATA or SAS for example) and the size is the same. there should not be a need to buy 'special Apple xserve hard drives'. if you buy a drive larger than 500 GB then the extra space beyond 500 GB will just be ignored depending on the type of RAID you have setup. definitely do not buy a disk smaller than 500 GB. pull out the disk that is bad and see what the make/model is. my xserve uses Seagate drives so you could probably just search eBay or whatever for the model number of the drive and use that. the hard drive should be able to be removed from the caddy so you don't really need a whole new "module".
as for power supplies those are proprietary and will need to be purchased thru apple or somewhere else like eBay, just search for the part number...

Xserve Raid - Devicer Removal Error ?!

Hi !
Can anybody help me ?
Whenever I copy some files from my Macintosh HD on my G5
to Xserve Raid 30 seconds after start copy process stops and I
get an Device Removal error.
I have traid everything and I can't get it right.
BTW
is my setup ok ?
Apple Fibre Channel Card
Port speed: 2 Gb/s
Port topology: Arbitrated loop
Xserve Raid
Port speed: 2 Gb/s
Port topology: Arbitrated loop
Read prefetch: 128 stripes - 8 MB/disk
Controller cache: on
Drive cache: on
Host flushing: off
Steady Streaming: off
Raid slices:
2x250 GB left controller
2x250 gb right controller
Disc Utility software raid:
Striped raid 0
left + right
Raid block size (default: 32 K): 256K
Please help!
Thx!
Crowebster

Hey Kel,
I've only seen a error -36 on a raid volume twice.. both times were days before a controller failed. I'd try swapping controllers and see if the problem follows the controller...

HUGE Troubles with xServe RAID formatted 10.4 and using it with SLS 10.6

Hi All,
We met today a huge trouble using an Apple xServe RAID (formatted HFS+ with a Mac OS 10.4 Server PowerPC G5).
This RAID has been plugged with a new xServe Intel Xeon (Model xServe 3.1), MacOS X 10.6.2, Apple FiberChannel card 4 GB, the link is at 2 GB.
There is also an Infortrend RAID FiberChannel 4 GB Fiber to SATA RAID attached to this new Intel Xeon server : this RAID drive mounts correctly, no troubles.
BUT the "old" xServe RAID is not able to mount at all while plugged with this new Intel Xeon, DiskUtility claims the volume needs repair !!! We try a repair = failed !!!
The xServe RAID has been formated under 10.4.6, HFS+ Journaled.
The Infortrend has been formated under 10.6.2, HFS+
Does anyone met a such case ??? We tried using SFP to SFP Copper cable or Optical Fiber + SFP/LC Transceiver = same results
Many thanks a lot for your opinion !!!
Regards.

What if you connect your "old" xServe RAID to a non SLS server if you have one available? Preferably one running 10.4.x server to match your HFS format. If the data on the old RAID is so critical that you can't afford to lose it, you could always pickup a used PPC w/ a fibre channel card and install 10.4 server on it just so you can transfer the data. Curious to see what you end up doing.

Capturing Video To Xserve Raid problems

I recently purchased an Xserve raid (1.75TB with 512mb cache on each controller), set it up for Raid 5. I also have an Apple Fibre Card on Slot 4 (the fasted PCI-X slot on my dual 2.0 G5. Much to my surprise when capturing DV video, not HD or DVCPRO, simply DV video via FireWire 400 to the Xserve Raid it can't keep up and drops frames! When I caputure DV video via FireWire 400 to my internal 150gb SATA drive all is well.
I do have journaling turned on for the Raid, but that can't be the problem.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
thanks

Hi there,
I’ve been reading numerous posts by you on the Apple Discussions pages and was wondering if you could help me.
I work for a small video company with 1 G5 Quad, 4 Dual G5’s and a G5 Imac. We have always worked across a gigabit network, sharing media and projects from each other’s internal and external drives without any problems. However, it was very hard to keep track of what everyone was doing and it was often hard to find specific files.
Therefore, we decided that it would be a good idea to centralise all of our storage, so we invested in an Apple Xserve Raid, which we connected to one of the dual processor G5’s (which we installed 10.4 server software on) via fibre channel. We figured that we would all be able to access the raid (just like we access each others internal and external drives) and read the media across the network. However, this has not gone to plan!
I followed the instructions about how to initialise and setup the raid and striped one bank of 7 as Raid 0 (set as our Projects drive) and the other bank as Raid 5 (set as our capture scratch). It does work ok for the most part. The G5 that hosts it works perfectly and most of the time one or maybe two of the other G5’s work well, but on the whole we are dropping a lot of frames and images are freezing frequently.
My understanding is that all 6 of our edit suites should be able to read DV across the gigabit network and as I have said, this has been the case before we got the raid – which leads me to think there is something, not right with the Raid. I could be here all day if I were to explain all the network settings on each computer, as well as what settings the Raid is set to – and to be honest I wouldn’t even know where to look!
I don’t know if I made this clear, but we capture locally and move the footage across – the project files and render files are also saved on the raid! We are not trying to work from the same project files, just the same media – but not all the time!
I really need to understand why we are having so much trouble and any help would be greatly appreciated?
Kind Regards
Adam

XServe Raid A1009 & Xserve Dual Core Compatibility

We have a 2X2GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon and are looking at an Apple xServe Raid A1009..
the Xserve has 2 fibre channels available.
Apple 2 Port 2Gbps Fibre Channel Card:
Name: pci-bridge
Type: PCI-to-PCI Bridge
Driver Installed: Yes
Bus: PCI
Slot: Slot-1
Vendor ID: 0x8086
Device ID: 0x0340
Revision ID: 0x0009
Link Width: x4
Link Speed: 2.5 GT/s
1. are these units compatible?
thanx
TW

+im lead to believe that i can put any old ATA/IDE drived up to 750GB as long as i run the latest firmware is that correct?+
When 750 PATAs were plentiful peoples results were mixed. The simple version is if the RAID understands the SMART controller the drive would work. Mostly there were a few 750GB models "known good" so everyone went with those until they stopped making them. I have to disagree with the "any old" characterization. It's not as picky as the Xserves but certain models *do not* work. Search the old threads about people trying trying different drives with mixed results. As I said the Caviar 500GB are the only drives still being made that I know of to reported as "known working".
On the larger issue I would very much hesitate to mix and match any drives in a RAID set-up due to reliability issues between drives. Whatever drives you settle on I would get them all the same models new at the same time.
I like my Xserve RAID - the thing is a workhorse - but I'd look at the cost + the cost of 16 replacement drives and look at what you might get in a SATA housing since those drives are still current.
My $.02,
=Tod

SATA disc's on a Xserve RAID?

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