Solution to Airport Extreme Base Station + Airport Express networking probs

Question

I've been investigating this for 3 straight days after inadvertently destabilizing my network. There are tons of posts discussing a variety of issues, all of which seem related. My goal here is to provide links to other relevant posts and explain what I ended up doing to get things to work.
First, the background. You can skip below to SOLUTION if you don't really care... However, I highly recommend you take the time to read everything, as you'll get other useful information in the BACKGROUND section. I'm guessing many of you have similar, related problems so BACKGROUND might help provide context (and solutions) to some things you are seeing...
MY SETUP:
AirPort Extreme Base Station (AEBS) of type b/g (round one, not square one), connects to the cable modem, and creates a WDS network that is then shared across two standard AirPort Express (AEX) units (100megabit, not the gigabit ones). One AEX serves as a relay unit that accepts clients, the other serves as a remote unit that also accepts clients. The intent is to show a single network throughout the house and let users log on to one network and move between networking units without having to switch from network to network.
I have a variety of networked devices throughout the house all running on the same network (2 Mac Pros, a Powerbook G4, a Mac Mini, an Apple TV, a Windows XP laptop, two iPhones, two wifi printers, and a 5-unit Sonos system, plus the AEBS and two AEXs). Yeah, I'm a geek.
The Mac Pros are both running 10.4.11, and the Powerbook is running 10.5.2.
AEBS is running firmware 5.7
AEXs are running firmware 6.3
All Macs were initially accessing configs via the recently released AirPort Utility 5.3.1. More on that later.
BACKGROUND:
I've had this network setup working for about a year now. Recently, I've been having poor network performance problems and came to the conclusion it was a LAN problem (ie. problem with my home network, as opposed to with my ISP). Upon initial investigation, I began by looking at my networking logs (via AirPort Utility 5.3.1). You get to those by selecting the unit in question, choosing "Manual Configuration", the selecting the "Advanced" tab up top with the "Logging and SNMP" sub-tab. Click the "Logs and Statistics" button therein for log details from that unit.
The first thing I noticed was "Administrative access denied to ff80::xxxxxxxxx" messages - a lot of them. I didn't recognize the ff80:: address in question, and so became concerned it was someone outside the network trying to hack one (or all) of the AEBS/AEX units. You can see threads discussing that investigation here:
"Hack or panic?" - http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1438486
"Administrative access denied" - http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1438865
Long and short of it is that the recent AirPort Utility 5.3.1 release (current as of March 13) seems to have problems (keychain) when attempting to access the AEBS and AEX units. The "Administrative access denied" logs actually refer to the client machine you are using when you try to read the logs. The ff80::xxxxxx address is simply the IPv6 address for the machine you are using; if you turn off IPv6 on your client machine, that address should switch over to begin showing a regular IP address instead (something like 10.0.1.xxx), which makes it easier to associate the IP to the machine. I explain how to deactivate IPv6 on both Tiger (10.4.x) and Leopard (1.5.x) here:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6814978#6814978
Anyway, in the process of investigating the "Administrative access denied" problem, I began tinkering with my AEX settings. Specifically, I ended up performing a hard factory reset (unplug unit, plug back in while holding down the little button with paper click/pen for ~10-15 seconds until light flashes green 4x then reverts to amber/yellow/orange). I began reconfiguring my entire WDS network using the newly updated AirPort Utility 5.3.1, and that's when the trouble started.
(If you are having problems seeing either your AirPort Extreme Base Station or AirPort Express, read this:)
In short, each time I thought I had properly configured things and then confirmed settings (kicking off a reboot on the AEX unit) the unit would restart with new settings but not properly join the WDS and not show up in the AirPort Utility list of units. More specifically, I would start with a "wiped" AEX and see both the AEBS and the AEX in my AirPort Utility list, but upon confirm/reboot the AEX would disappear and the AEBS would remain. However, that's not 100% correct. It seems that sometimes I would end up with the AEX and NOT the AEBS. Because both the AEX and AEBS were theoretically "hosting" the same network name (remember, WDS shares the network name across units) my auto-login feature for my client computer's wifi seemed to "jump on" whichever unit it first saw hosting the default network name for my house. In other words, it seems what was really happening was that I was ending up with two separate networks in my house, both with the same name but not talking to each other (as opposed to two units sharing the same network name and internet connection). The AEX would continue to blink orange/amber/yellow (whichever color it is to your eyes ) because it could not grab an internet connection -- and if I was on the network through that AEX unit I would not get internet. But if i was connected through the AEBS I would continue to have internet access. As far as my client computer (my Mac Pro) was concerned, I was on the home wifi network even if I was on the AEX rather than the AEBS -- it would show the home wifi network name as the name of the network it had connected to. But when I opened the AirPort Utility 5.3.1 I would see only the AEX (if I was connected through it) or the AEBS (if connected through it) -- a clear indication that the units were not truly sharing the same network.
I tried rebooting and reconfiguring the AEBS and AEX about 50 times (literally). I even tracked down an older version of the AirPort Utility 5.2.1 via this thread (see Tesserax post):
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1067565
One interesting thing re: 5.2.1 is that the "Administrative access denied" errors summarized above disappeared. As explained in a post reference above, the going theory is that this a permissions/keychain problem new and unique to AirPort Utility 5.3.1. However, even though 5.2.1 does have a slightly different interface with different settings, I still couldn't get the WDS to work.
EVENTUALLY, I came across this post:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1422527
MuaddibOfArrakis walks through setting up a WDS from scratch, and the workflow is different than what is possible with either AirPort Utility 5.3.1 or 5.2.1. He's doing it with the old version of AirPort Admin Utility, which I fortunately saved a copy of many moons ago when I had somewhat-related problems with my WDS (since forgotten). In fact, it's a lot easier. What's nice about this older app is that it literally does the heavy lifting of "connecting" the AEBS and AEX units during the configuration -- it reboots both at the same time as the config is happening, and lets you choose from a list of available units to "add" to your WDS network. In short, it's a FAR SUPERIOR workflow even though some of the GUI isn't as intuitive as the newer AirPort Utilities that were designed to replace it.
SOLUTION:
If still have a copy of the AirPort Admin Utility follow the instructions from MuaddibOfArrakis here:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1422527
If not, try setting up your WDS network using AirPort Utility (hereafter AU), with these configs (take from my now-working network), as viewed through AirPort Utility 5.3.1.
I. Configure your AEBS.
Select the AEBS from AU, and choose "Manual Setup"
1. Under the AirPort tab up top:
a. Under "Base Station" sub-tab:
i.) assign a name for that specific unit, so you can later identify the specific unit from the list of units -- this is the name that will show up beside the unit in the AU list of configurable units. You can name it something like "kitchen", or "office". I have mine numbered, so XXXXXv1, XXXXXv2 etc where the XXXXX is the name of the shared network and the numbers help me tell the units apart. Just be sure you name each uniquely, and if you have several you might write the name on the unit itself.
ii.) pick a password for logging into that unit. This is different from the network password, its a security check to get in and change the configs on this unit later. Be sure to remember it in your keychain for the sake of simplicity, and write it down somewhere secure.
iii.) if you choose to set time automatically, pick a location that you will use consistently across all your units. I use time.apple.com.
iv.) uncheck "Allow configuration over Ethernet WAN port" unless you want to be able to remotely mess with settings -- which you almost certainly do not need to do.
v.) I left the "Options" button alone - no settings there.
b. Under the "Wireless" sub-tab:
i.) Wireless Mode: "Participate in a WDS network"
ii.) Network Name: this will be the name of your wifi network shared by all units, so be sure to remember what you pick. If you are already connected to this AEBS via wifi while you are making these changes, then you can use the same wifi name you already have set up -- you don't have to change it. Note that if you DO change it, after reboot your will LOSE connection to the network and have to reset your wifi settings on your client machine to match the new network/password in order to be able to access the network.
iii.) pick a Radio Mode. I'm using b/g compatible. You'll want to do the same, unless you are on the new gigabit AEX. I'm pretty sure about this, but not 100% -- others post if I'm wrong.
iv.) choose a Channel. This can be a more complicated procedure, but for now just pick something consistent across all your units. If you get everything working and find that you're having intermittent network problems, you could later try changing your Channel -- it can pick up interference from phones, microwaves, etc and changing it can help.
v.) I have wireless security set to WPA/WPA2 Personal.
vi.) Wireless Password is the password for access to your wifi network (not your unit itself). If you are connecting to your AEBS via wifi while doing this config, then you can use the same password you have already set up. Pick a good one unless you want other folks jumping on your wifi and stealing your bandwidth and/or credit card numbers . Remember it in your keychain and write it down someplace secure, because you'll need it for the other units too. As noted above, note that if you DO change it, after reboot your will LOSE connection to the network and have to reset your wifi settings on your client machine to match the new network/password in order to be able to access the network.
vii.) Click the "Wireless Options" button. I have my multicast rate set to 2mbps, transmit at 100%, timeout at 1 hour, and i have checked the "Create a closed network". This last step keeps your network from advertising itself to the outside world. Users can only find it by explicitly typing the network name into their wifi settings (e.g. AirPort -> Other... then enter Network Name, Security and Password). I leave interference robustness unchecked.
c. Under the "WDS" sub-tab:
i.) the AEBS should have it's WDS Mode set to "WDS main".
ii.) Check the "allow wireless clients" box on the AEBS; this lets you connect client machines to it directly too.
iii.) hit the plus button to add the Remote system (AEX). There are two types of configs for the AEX's - "remote" and "relay". Assuming you have 3 units like me (2 AEX and 1 AEBS) the key question is whether you will place each AEX within direct reach of the AEBS (remotes), or if you will have one AEX in the middle connecting to an AEBS on one side and an AEX on the other -- where the furthest AEX is out of reach from the AEBS (remote) and connects only to the AEX in the middle (relay). I'm using a relay setup. If you are using relay, you can still set up the AEX relay to serve client computers too -- it doesnt have to JUST relay. More on that later. For now, you want to add only AEX units that will talk DIRECTLY to the AEBS. So if you have a setup like mine, just add one (the one in the middle - the relay). If you have two remotes connecting directly to the AEBS, you will add them both here. When you hit the '+' button it will ask for both an ID and description. For description I use the name I'm assigning to each unique unit (as above, "kitchen" or XXXXXv1 or whatever you use). For AirPort ID, use the number listed on the AEX unit itself (not the number for "Ethernet", also on the AEX unit).
d. Under the "Access" sub-tab:
i.) I have it set to "Not Enabled". I'd suggest you start that way too, and you can go change it later if you get everything working correctly.
2. Under the "Internet" tab up top:
a. Under the "Internet Connection" sub-tab:
i.) Connect Using: Ethernet
ii.) Configure IPv4: Using DHCP
iii.) Ethernet WAN Port: Automatic (Default)
iv.) Connection Sharing: Share a public IP address
b. Under the "DHCP" sub-tab:
i.) DHCP Beginning Address: 10.0 . 1 . 2
ii.) DHCP Ending Address: 10.0.1.200
DHCP Lease: 4 hours
c. Under the "NAT" sub-tab:
i.) nothing should be checked;
ii.) nothing under Port Mappings either
3. Under the "Printers and Advanced" tabs up top:
Nothing special needs to be configured there.
THAT'S IT.
=============
I. Configure your AEX(s)
Select the AEX from AU, and choose "Manual Setup"
1. Under the "AirPort" tab up top:
a. Under "Base Station" sub-tab:
i.) pick a unique name for this unit, same logic as for AEBS
ii.) pick a password specific for accessing this unit, same logic as for AEBS
iii.) Set time automatically: be sure to use the same settings used on your AEBS
iv.) Options: no need to set any
b. Under "Wireless" sub-tab:
i.) Wireless Mode: Participate in a WDS network
ii.) Network Name: same name used for AEBS, this is the name of your wifi network
iii.) Channel: same as AEBS
iv.) All settings here (those above, plus Security and Password & in Options button) should be the same as for AEBS settings on this tab
c. Under the "WDS" sub-tab:
...if AEX is "in the middle" (as described above):
i.) WDS Mode: WDS relay
ii.) Allow wireless clients: check (unless you only want to bridge between the edges without letting folks connect on this AEX in the middle)
iii.) WDS Main: set to the AirPort ID (aka MAC address) for the AEBS. You can find it on the bottom of the AEBS, either labeled as such or at the bottom beside the logo of a wireless signal (square logo, with semi-circles mimicing a radio signal).
iv.) WDS Remotes: click the '+' to add any AEX's that will connect to this relay rather than directly to the AEBS. Same deal as above, use the name in the description and use the AirPort ID from the side of the AEX (not the Ethernet ID).
.....if AEX is connecting to a relay ("on the end", as above) or if there is no relay and AEX connects directly to the AEBS:
i.) WDS Model: WDS remote
ii.) Allow wireless clients: checked
iii.) WDS Main: if connected to a relay, use the AirPort ID of the relay AEX. If connected to the AEBS directly, use the AirPort ID of the AEBS
d. Under the "Access" sub-tab:
i.) MAC Address Access Control: Not Enabled (for now, you can change later)
2. Under the "Internet" tab up top:
a. Under the "Internet Connection" sub-tab:
i.) Connect Using: AirPort (WDS) -- should be selected and gray'ed out.
ii.) Configure IPv4: Using DHCP
iii.) Ethernet WAN Port: Automatic (Default)
iv.) Connection Sharing: Off (Bridge Mode)
3. Under the Music, Printers and Advanced tabs up top:
Nothing special needs to be configured there. You can worry about AirTunes settings later...
That should be it. I'd recommend setting up the AEBS first, then the relay (if applicable), then the remotes. Initially, you can bring each unit in the same room with you for configuring. After configured and restarted the AEX should blink then turn solid green. If it turns green you should be good to go.
HOPE THIS HELPS. As noted above, I did not config through AirPort Utility 5.3.1 so I haven't tested this procedure through that app. However, after getting my network to work I went back and transposed all settings into this post to help others. Please provide feedback on whether or not this is working, so we can collectively try to move towards a setup procedure that works for everyone....
Good luck!
Message was edited by: b.byrd

Answer 1

I'm not convinced that the problem lies in Airport Utility. This same thing was happening to me, nearly exactly as you describe it. The thing is that with me, the problems clearly started when I updated the firmware in my Airport Express (n). That's when all the wacky stuff started happening. Sometimes it would show up in AU, sometimes it didn't and even if it didn't, I could still access the internet through it.
But as you said, the problems got really bad when another Express (b/g) was put on the network with it. Even when it did work, the (b/g) would make it impossibly slow.
You know more about this than me, and clearly have more patience if you've restarted the network fifty times. I gave up at about ten.
In any case, your solution is more of a work around and if you're still having that slow connection problem, I'm not sure you've got it. But thanks for your reporting of this. At least I know I'm not crazy.