Time capsule in mixed environment

I am running time capsule with a MacBook Pro that is running Leopard and Windows XP (as a virtual machine with VMWare Fusion). I've been running scheduled backups for months from the Mac side, excluding the virtual machine file.
I finally figured out how to get Windows to see the time capsule and backup to it, but I am concerned what will happen if both machines are trying to access the drive at the same time, and if either has the potential to overwrite the other.
Once I connected XP to the time capsule (drive X) I created a folder called windows_backup and am storing windows backups inside that directory. If anyone has any advice here, I'd welcome it.
Tiffany

The files I keep in the shared folder (outside of the VM) are backed up by Time Machine. I do not store or have installed applications on this folder, just the documents, etc. It may work, but I haven't tried. I use Mac Mail, so I can't really comment on your email client in Windows (?). If you just install the apps you need in the VM, just make a working copy of your stable VM and transfer it to a created folder on your Time Capsule. Basically, Fusion only needs the one file (albeit a 50GB file in your case). The pro is the shared folder is updated every hour. The con is the VM isn't. If you've updated Fusion to 2.x, they've added a snapshot feature (finally). I'm not endorsing the snapshot feature, BTW. I've experience an unrecoverable corrupt VM when using the snapshot feature with vmware Work Station (PC version of Fusion).
Good luck!

Similar Messages

Problems using Time Capsule in mixed Network.

My NAS started to play up so I invested in an Apple Timecapsule as we have several Macs and the beast is supposed to support other OS's, including Linux and Windows.
Mac side words like a dream. Mr Apple's stuff generally does in my experience.
I can mount the disk in Linux (Ubuntu) but the operation is most odd. I can copy files from my Linux machine to the Time Capsule but not all types of file can be "seen" by my Mac. In particular, jpg files don't show up at the Mac end. They do show as being there to Linux.
I've not tried Windows yet, that gets minimal use here.
Has anyone mastered using a Timecapsule as a simple NAS under Linux and can offer some tips, please?
I've pretty well Googled this to death, there are conflicting versions of what are claimed to be working fstab entries (including the one I'm using) but no examples of what I am observing.
This is my fstab entry:
//<ip_address>/Data/Files /media/macnas cifs uid=brian,credentials=/home/brian/<credentials_file>,iocharset=utf8,sec=ntlm 0 0
The aim is to use the Time capsule as a back disk for my Linux machines as well as my Macs.
Any assistance greatly appreciated.
Brian
PS: Previously I was using on of my Linux systems as a Time capsule server for my Macs, that was easy to get working in comparison going the other way!

What Mac OS are you running?
There can be some interesting issues with Mavericks.. it might simply have permissions wrong.
Or the files are hidden.
See the commands in this thread might help.. since you seem to be a bit of Linux eggs spurt.
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5766289?tstart=0
TC is really not suited to NAS duties. So good luck with backups on it.

I want to take files from my PC (using a Seagate external hard drive) then plug this Seagate External hard drive into my Mac Book Pro and move the files from the Seagate External Hard drive onto my Time Capsule. I do not want to put these files on my Mac

I want to take files from my PC (using a Seagate external hard drive) then plug this Seagate External hard drive into my Mac Book Pro and move the files from the Seagate External Hard drive onto my Time Capsule. I do not want to put these files on my Mac. How do I do this? Where do I put these files on my Time Capsule? Will it affect the functioning of my Time Capsule?

Mixing files with data is not always great idea.
See info here.
Q3 http://pondini.org/TM/Time_Capsule.html
Why not just connect the PC directly to the TC by ethernet and copy the files over?
It is hugely faster and much less mucking around.
In windows load the airport utility for windows.. if you have not already as this will help you access the drive.
There is more info here.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1331

Time Capsule (SIM) expand network with 802.11b/g Airport Extreme

Hi, I try to expand a Airport-Network which is set up with a Time Capsule (SIM (latest model). I like to use an Airport-Extreme-Basestation to expand the network. The two devices will be connected wireless. In the helpfile there is a explantation how to do this with 802.11n-devices but when it comes to the 802.11b/g-devices it just says I should have a look on the apple support-pages. I do not find anything there.
I tried everything, but it did not work. I've had a Time Capsule (first model) which died some days ago (the well known powersupply problem). With this Time Capsule I did not had any problems to set up a WDS.
What to do?
Message was edited by: Kadege

Kadege wrote:
Ok Jolly, thank you, but I started this thread to get in contact to somebody who knows the solution, i.e. has done this before.
Jolly Giant wrote:
try automatic
Of course I've already tried this and the other automatics, but it did not work. That is the reason I am asking for help. So I guess I need special settings.
NOT good !
No protection is not good, ok. But I want it to set up and running and after this I can switch on protection to eleminate some mistake-reasons.
WDS-Mode: "remote WDS-Basestation"
when the UFO joins the TC's network this will no longer apply
But this menu exists and the UFO does not join the network, so I have to select any of this settings!
try these steps provided by Tesserax:
Setting Up Time Capsule as a Second Wireless Router
802.11g AirPort Extreme Base Station -> 802.11n Time Capsule
With "mixed" AirPorts, you will need to configure both routers into a Wireless Distribution System (WDS). Your neighbor's AirPort Extreme Base Station (AEBS) will be the main and your Time Capsule (TC) will be the remote base station in this WDS.
To simplify setup, you should connect your TC directly to the AirPort's LAN port by Ethernet. Once the WDS is configured, you can disconnect the TC and place it at the desired location.
The following are the basic configuration steps to create a WDS:
(Note: To facilitate the WDS set up, jot down the AirPort IDs (MAC addresses) for each of the base stations to be used in the WDS. The AirPort ID and is printed on the label on the bottom/side of the base station.)
Main Base Station Setup - AEBS
o Click the AirPort status menu in the menu bar and choose the wireless network created by the base station you want to set up as the main base station.
o Open AirPort Utility (located in the Utilities folder in the Applications folder on a Macintosh computer, or in Start > All Programs > AirPort on a computer using Windows).
o Select the main base station, and choose Manual Setup from the Base
Station menu, or double-click the base station to open the configuration in a separate window.
o Enter the base station password if necessary. If the base station is using the
default password of public, you will not be prompted for a password.
o Click Wireless in the toolbar, and then choose “Participate in a WDS network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu.
o Click WDS and then choose “WDS main” from the WDS Mode pop-up menu.
o Select the “Allow wireless clients” checkbox if you want client computer to connect to this base station.
o Click the Add "+" button and enter the AirPort ID of the base station you want to connect to this base station.
o Click Update to send the new settings to the base stations in the WDS.
Remote Base Station Setup - TC
o Click the AirPort status menu in the menu bar and choose the wireless network created by the base station you want to set up as a remote base station.
o Open AirPort Utility (in the Utilities folder in the Applications folder on a Macintosh computer, or in Start > All Programs > AirPort on a computer using Windows).
o Select the remote base station, and choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu.
o Enter the base station password, if necessary. If the base station is using the default password of public, you will not be prompted for a password.
o Enter the same network password as the main base station, if necessary.
o Click AirPort in the toolbar and click Wireless. Choose “Participate in a WDS network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and choose the same channel as the main base station from the Channel pop-up menu.
o Click WDS and choose “WDS remote” from the pop-up menu.
o Enter the AirPort ID of the main base station in the WDS Main field.
o Click Update to transfer the settings to the base station.
(ref: Pages 42-46 of "Designing AirPort Networks.)
802.11n AirPort Extreme Base Station -> 802.11n Time Capsule
o Open AirPort Utility and select the base station that will connect to the Internet.
o Choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu, or double-click the base station to open the configuration in a separate window. Enter the base station password if necessary.
o Click AirPort in the toolbar, and then click Wireless.
o Choose “Create a wireless network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and then select the “Allow this network to be extended” checkbox.
o Next, select the base station that will extend this network, and choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu, or double-click the base station to open its configuration in a separate window. Enter the base station password if necessary.
o Choose “Extend a wireless network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and then choose the network you want to extend from the Network Name pop-up menu.
o Enter the base station network and base station password is necessary.
o Click Update to update the base station with new network settings.
does this fix it for you ?
edited by the Jolly Green Giant (where Green stands for environmentally friendly)

Setting Up Time Capsule as a Second Wireless Router

Thanks for trying to help. I have a Time Capsule that I'm currently using to back up my files. My next door neighbor is willing to share his internet with me for half the monthly cost. He already has a wireless router and I can connect to it using my macbook (no probs) except the signal strength is not so powerful since I'm a couple feet far from his router. I was wondering if I can use my Time Capsule to hook up the internet via WIFI through his wireless router (that way I have a stronger signal strength from my Time Capsule). Basically using my Time capsule as a 2nd wireless router to expand my neighbor's network. Like repeating (like a transceiver) to and from neighbor's wireless network, to expand upon it.
Internet = Neighbor's Modem = Neighbor's wireless Router = Time Capsule = My Macbook
If you can please tell me how to set this up in details on my TC please. thanks for your time.

802.11g AirPort Extreme Base Station -> 802.11n Time Capsule
With "mixed" AirPorts, you will need to configure both routers into a Wireless Distribution System (WDS). Your neighbor's AirPort Extreme Base Station (AEBS) will be the main and your Time Capsule (TC) will be the remote base station in this WDS.
To simplify setup, you should connect your TC directly to the AirPort's LAN port by Ethernet. Once the WDS is configured, you can disconnect the TC and place it at the desired location.
The following are the basic configuration steps to create a WDS:
(Note: To facilitate the WDS set up, jot down the AirPort IDs (MAC addresses) for each of the base stations to be used in the WDS. The AirPort ID and is printed on the label on the bottom/side of the base station.)
Main Base Station Setup - AEBS
o Click the AirPort status menu in the menu bar and choose the wireless network created by the base station you want to set up as the main base station.
o Open AirPort Utility (located in the Utilities folder in the Applications folder on a Macintosh computer, or in Start > All Programs > AirPort on a computer using Windows).
o Select the main base station, and choose Manual Setup from the Base
Station menu, or double-click the base station to open the configuration in a separate window.
o Enter the base station password if necessary. If the base station is using the
default password of public, you will not be prompted for a password.
o Click Wireless in the toolbar, and then choose “Participate in a WDS network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu.
o Click WDS and then choose “WDS main” from the WDS Mode pop-up menu.
o Select the “Allow wireless clients” checkbox if you want client computer to connect to this base station.
o Click the Add "+" button and enter the AirPort ID of the base station you want to connect to this base station.
o Click Update to send the new settings to the base stations in the WDS.
Remote Base Station Setup - TC
o Click the AirPort status menu in the menu bar and choose the wireless network created by the base station you want to set up as a remote base station.
o Open AirPort Utility (in the Utilities folder in the Applications folder on a Macintosh computer, or in Start > All Programs > AirPort on a computer using Windows).
o Select the remote base station, and choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu.
o Enter the base station password, if necessary. If the base station is using the default password of public, you will not be prompted for a password.
o Enter the same network password as the main base station, if necessary.
o Click AirPort in the toolbar and click Wireless. Choose “Participate in a WDS network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and choose the same channel as the main base station from the Channel pop-up menu.
o Click WDS and choose “WDS remote” from the pop-up menu.
o Enter the AirPort ID of the main base station in the WDS Main field.
o Click Update to transfer the settings to the base station.
(ref: Pages 42-46 of "Designing AirPort Networks.)
802.11n AirPort Extreme Base Station -> 802.11n Time Capsule
o Open AirPort Utility and select the base station that will connect to the Internet.
o Choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu, or double-click the base station to open the configuration in a separate window. Enter the base station password if necessary.
o Click AirPort in the toolbar, and then click Wireless.
o Choose “Create a wireless network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and then select the “Allow this network to be extended” checkbox.
o Next, select the base station that will extend this network, and choose Manual Setup from the Base Station menu, or double-click the base station to open its configuration in a separate window. Enter the base station password if necessary.
o Choose “Extend a wireless network” from the Wireless Mode pop-up menu, and then choose the network you want to extend from the Network Name pop-up menu.
o Enter the base station network and base station password is necessary.
o Click Update to update the base station with new network settings.

Time capsule as a repeater in a mixed PC/Mac environment

Hello all,
I have a mixed environment network that has a Sonicwall TZ 200w as their main router. I would like to enhance the wifi signal either with an Access Point or some type of Repeater. Furthermore, I am looking for a NAS device for all the PCs and Macs. I figure since this is a mixed Win/Mac environment, that Time Capsule might be best since their preference is Apple.Has anyone ever 1) configured Time Capsule in a mixed Win/Mac environment as a Repeater? 2) Do Windows PCs get flustered with Wifi/Nas backups? Is there an alternative option?
The main thing here is that the Sonicwall must stay as the primary router for the network and that any device must support PC and Mac.

TC cannot repeat from non-apple router. Although that is not quite true WDS is so bad and so insecure you would never in a million years do it. if you have a security router like Sonicwall.
It would be like building a castle with a moat and the drawbridge can never be pulled up or the gate shut.
If you setup the TC in bridge and as an AP plugged into the sonic wall by ethernet.. that will work fine. You can setup a roaming wireless network.. which works well on Macs but generally PC fail totally. That is only relevant to laptops and portable devices though.
PC will be able to use the TC as a backup target.. it is not ideal and you will generally need to play around a bit but it does work.
You should note.. a TC is not a NAS.. it is primarily designed as a backup target for Mac Laptops with Time Machine. That is why the combo of wireless plus hard disk.
It is a dumb box.. really a hard drive hanging off a wireless router.. (only it is inside it.. well sealed inside).
It is slow.. fast enough for wireless clients.. but it is a single green drive.. no raid to mirror.. no esata or way to extend the drive.. no JBOD .. when it runs out of space.. it is out of space.
But principally there is no internal backup.. as a place to store files.. it stinks.. you will have to setup a manual backup.
If you want a NAS buy a NAS and plug it into the fastest router point you have.
To extend wireless use a proper repeater if you have to.. repeaters are never a great idea.. it is much better to use multiple AP's tied back by ethernet.
Cost wise the TC is very hard to beat if it suits your function.. but it has a short lifespan.. do not trust it after 3 years. It is sealed.. if it dies in warranty it is replaced.. no data will be recovered.. after all .. it is a backup device.. there are no parts available to fix it.. power supply being the chief thing that goes wrong.
Read in google a bit.. dead time capsule
You will see what I mean.

When I switch my time capsule to 5.0ghz mode the range of my wireless network drops significantly. Near the Time Capsule my Macbook Pro works fine, in my bedroom I have almost no signal. In mixed mode it works fine. Any ideas on how to get 5.0 working?

When I switch my time capsule to 5.0ghz mode the range of my wireless network drops significantly. Near the Time Capsule my Macbook Pro works fine, in my bedroom I have almost no signal. In mixed mode it works fine both placed. Any ideas on how to get 5.0 working? I thought 5.0Ghz was supposed to have a wider range. Do I need to change a setting on the Macbook Pro?
Thanks, W

I'm not sure if you understand that 5 GHz has some upsides, but also some very significant downsides.
The upside is that the 5 GHz signal will allow faster speeds.
The downside is that you must always give up something in order to gain something else.Unfortunately, the marketing hype about 5 GHz does not go into very many details about this.
In the case of 5 GHz, the 5 GHz signals are much weaker than 2.4 GHz signals, so they do not travel as far or penetrate any obstructions like walls or ceilings nearly as well as 2.4 GHz signals. In many cases, in order to get good 5 Ghz performance, you literally have to have almost a line-of-sight relationship between your computer and the wireless router.
If you have a new dual band router, which broadcasts both a 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz signal simutaneously, your Mac will connect to the best signal quality automatically depending on its location in relation to the router. In the same room, without any obstructions, it will connec to 5 GHz. But, take the laptop down the hall a few rooms and around the corner and the Mac will connect to the 2.4 GHz signal because at that location, the 2.4 GHz signal is not only stronger, it is also faster.

Time Capsule and Airport Express on mixed netword

I have a newer Time Capsule as well as one newer and one older Airport Express WAP's. I'm using them to stream audio to 2 different audio zones in my house and things are working pretty well up until I wanted to put my iPhone in the mix. Seems that the older "b/g" express won't connect well with the iPhone to allow the remote application to connect to a library. I have it set to "join a wireless network" (don't think WDS option works with this older unit). But in this mode it doesn't allow me to roam onto that expresses coverage area. I lose coverage and I'm only 10 feet away from the WAP. Don't get this. Is there some easy way to get an older "b/g" express working with the newer ones that will get you "n" access speeds and roaming amongst access points capability? Thanks in advance for the help and hopefully I've explained this well enough...

I have the same issue. I also have an Airport Express running 7.6.1. Oddly enough, while connecting via he Express drops download speed from ~20 Mbps to ~1.5 Mbps my upload speed stays consistant at ~3 Mbps.

Time Capsule as a NAS in a mixed (Mac/PC) network

Hi, I'm looking for a good NAS solution for a network of 3 PCs (WinXP Pro and Home) and 4 Macs (all 10.4.11) and thought that the Time Capsule might offer a good opportunity. I want to make it easy for everyone to back up often, and a decent NAS is much cheaper than buying a bunch of external drives for 5 people.
I have a router (not gigabit, with 802.11g), and am thinking that I should just connect the TC to the router via Cat5e to simplify things.
Has anyone been through this experience? How does the TC work in a PC system? Can I just assign a drive to it and off I go? Has it been reliable?
Thanks!
Keith.

I have a TC in a mixed Mac/PC network and it's working wonderfully. Just a few things to keep in mind:
Make sure to set the Workgroup in your File Sharing section of AirPort Utility. Be sure to type the same workgroup that your PCs are members of and you should be able to see the Time Capsule's disk drive as a networked drive. You might have to add your Time Capsule's network to the list of trusted zones/networks in your PC's software firewall settings. If that doesn't work, you could always install AirPort Utility for Windows from the TC install disc which will have AirPort Base Station Agent. This is a program that loads into the taskbar and allows you to connect to your Time Capsule's disk drive.
The other thing to remember, if you are connecting one router to another, set the second router to run in bridge mode and give them both a unique SSID. This allows the first router to do all the DHCP and NAT, and will just add a secondary wireless access point to your current network. I have my TC acting as my main router with a Linksys running in bridge mode. My TC is wireless-n only 5 GHz, and the Linksys is b/g 2.4 GHz, giving me a full speed N network while still allowing b/g devices to connect.
Edit: You could also disable wireless routing on the Time Capsule entirely and just have it act as a networked drive. Set the Time Capsule's Connection Sharing to Off (Bridge Mode) in AirPort Utility and disable Wireless Mode. AFAIK this should still allow the Time Capsule's HDD to be accessed from whichever network it is connected.
Try reading this pdf from Apple. It explains networking in a lot greater detail.
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/DesigningAirPort_Networks10.5-Windows.pdf

Can time capsule be configured to back up mixed pc mac networks?

Can time capsule be configured to back up mixed mac/pc networks?

That may work, but there are complications to putting Time Machine backups and other data on the TC's internal HD. See #Q3 in Using Time Machine with a Time Capsule for details and some workarounds.

Using Time Capsule in a college provided WiFi environment

This fall, my daughter transferred to Barnard College from Drexel University. Drexel provides internet in the dorms via ethernet. Barnard is totally WiFi. At Drexel, she plugged her Time Capsule (TIME CAPSULE 2TB (4TH GENERATION)-USA - MD032LL/A) into the ethernet jack and connected her MacBook to it wirelessly. Now at Barnard she does not have the same setup.
I know she can connect her MB to TC with an ethernet cable, but is there a way to configure her TC and MB in this environment to use the TC wirelessly such that her MB is connected to both the TC and Barnard's WiFi internet connection?

Not directly no.. the problem is wireless cannot connect to two clients at once. (Ethernet can).
Nor can the TC at as a wireless repeater to a non-apple wireless device. That is just how apple make them.
So choices.. setup express as wireless bridge to the TC.. so it can connect by ethernet, then send a wireless signal to the MB so it can connect to both. This can work but not if the college has a login screen.. that messes things up entirely.
If they have a login screen then you have to use ethernet or you have to use a USB wireless dongle plugged into the MB to provide a second client.
Note also they may have rules about running your own wireless routers.

Time capsule problems in mixed apple windows network

Hello
I am facing issues with my home network.
I am using a time capsule on the firm ware version 7.6, which is the newest to my knowledge (just updated)
I have setup my time capsule with costum name and password. Time machine is off at the moment.
I have setup a wireless network with costum name and password. I have not activated a guest network.
In the network we use one windows laptop running on windows xp and a mac book pro running snow leopard.
We both can acess the wireless network with our laptops. But the connection to the internet is shaky, Especially if there is another guest with a windows pc comming into the network (and we give him the network details) I loose connection to the internet for several days. Usually the issue resolves itself a couple of days after the guest has left.
What could cause such a problem?
Thank you in advance for your answers!
Wolfi

This type of question arises from time to time and is really hard to figure out.
If you restart the TC does the problem go away immediately?
What about if the TC is reset and redo the setup.. does it go?
If you connect via ethernet does the problem exist or is it purely wireless?
Does the PC that is added have a different computer name and different username and password on the local disk to yours?
Try doing a manual wireless configuration. Set channels to fixed value. Change the wireless name for 5ghz so it is different to 2.4ghz. See if that makes an improvement.

What sort of functionality can I expect from Time Capsule in a Windows 7 environment?

I'm looking to use time capsule as a backup for all of our families photos and such. What kind of functionality can I expect from Windows 7 and Time Capsule.

You can use it as a network drive. You can also use it for automatic back-up purposes.

Problem with Time Capsule and Wireless Printing (Mac+PC Mixed)

I have a time capsule that is the wireless router for the house and my iMac and laptops use the wireless network beautifully. I installed a Dell 1320C color laser printer by connecting it to the usb port on the time capsule. The airport express utility did NOT recognize any USB printer connected to the time capsule. I was however able to wireless print from my iMac by asking the printer utility to find all available printers which it did and then installing the printer drivers (thanks google). So, while i cannot find my printer as being connected to the time capsule through the airport utility, i can find it through the print utility as a connection through bonjour and i can print just fine to it.
Now i installed bonjour on my laptops and found and selected the 1320c just fine. When i try to print through the laptops (pc), nothing happens and the file stays in the print queue.
I am willing to live with the first quirk as I can print wirelessly from the iMac. I however need help to print from the laptops.
Any suggestions?
thank you so much in advance
Mukund

Mukund SRINIVASAN wrote:
Once I connect the printer via ethernet to the time capsule, how do I
1) see the printer on my iMAC - what utility do I run etc?
It is connected to your network. Check your printer setup manual on how to set it up. Or go the the Dell website for printer support if you can't find your manual.
2) can i then run bonjour from my windows laptops and see the printer through the network?
Via ethernet, it shouldn't need Bonjour to set up.

WiFi no longer working with new Time Capsule-can you help please?

Hi all,
Just received my new Time Capsule (TC). It was a little problematic setting up, but probably due to my now choosing to increase my security from WEP to WPA as the TC set-up assistant suggests. Since then, I have had numerous problems getting my other computers and now my iPhone to connect with WiFi.
The problem is that despite entering all the new settings and WPA passwords for my connection with the TC, the iPhone will either momentarily recognize and go to wifi or simply stay on Edge.
On the former, with wifi active, as soon as I go to iTunes, Safari or check email, it reverts to Edge. On the latter, despite resetting, entering password, or tapping Settings and selecting my wifi connection, it will NOT connect and stays on Edge.
(Now, I'm on Edge! I'm bummed that with new hardware I have new problems that didn't exist before!)
Can someone who had this same problem tell me how they resolved it.
Here's the one clue I have, but would rather not resort to: When I first set up the TC, I had it on WEP with a WDS Network, and everything was working great and FAST! Now that I have increased the security—I will be backing up 3 computers to the TC—my iPhone and other computers seem to have intermittent or no wifi connection as a result.)

Irving Gonzales,
If your computers are 802.11N capable, you might want to try an advanced setup that might help your Time Machine speeds some. I have not personally tested it, so it is just a personal theory at this point.
First, in a mixed environment the 802.11N clients all get slowed down.
First, configure the TC for 802.11N only.
Second, connect the Airport Express via ethernet to the Time Capsule
Third, configure the Airport Express for bridged mode (doesn't give out IP addresses), and for its own wireless network with a different name than the Time Capsule.
Have any 802.11b/g clients like the iPhone join the Airport Express' network.
Thank you,
Nathan C.

Time capsule in mixed environment

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