Trying to Understand Color Management

The title should have read, "Trying to Understand Color Management: ProPhoto RGB vs, Adobe RGB (1998) my monitor, a printer and everything in between." Actually I could not come up with a title short enough to describe my question and even this one is not too good. Here goes: The more I read about Color Management the more I understand but also the more I get confused so I thouht the best way for me to understnand is perhaps for me to ask the question my way for my situation.
I do not own an expensve monitor, I'd say middle of the road. It is not calibrated by hardware or any sophisticated method. I use a simple software and that's it. As to my printer it isn't even a proper Photo filter. My editing of photos is mainly for myself--people either view my photos on the net or on my monitor. At times I print photos on my printer and at times I print them at a Print Shop. My philosophy is this. I am aware that what I see on my monitor may not look the same on someone else's monitor, and though I would definitely like if it it were possible, it doesn't bother me that much. What I do care about is for my photos to come close enough to what I want them to be on print. In other words when the time comes for me to get the best colors possible from a print. Note here that I am not even that concerned with color accuracy (My monitor colors equalling print colors since I know I would need a much better monitor and a calibrated one to do so--accurately compare) but more rather concerned with color detail. What concerns me, is come that day when I do need to make a good print (or afford a good monitor/printer) then I have as much to work with as possible. This leads me to think that therefore working with ProPhoto RGB is the best method to work with and then scale down according to needs (scale down for web viewing for example). So I thought was the solution, but elsewhere I read that using ProPhoto RGB with a non-pro monitor like mine may actually works against me, hence me getting confused, not understanding why this would be so and me coming here. My goal, my objective is this: Should I one day want to print large images to present to a gallery or create a book of my own then I want my photos at that point in time to be the best they can be--the present doesn't worry me much .Do I make any sense?
BTW if it matters any I have CS6.

To all of you thanks. First off yes, I now have begun shooting in RAW. As to my future being secure because of me doing so let me just say that once I work on a photo I don't like the idea of going back to the original since hours may have been spent working on it and once having done so the original raw is deleted--a tiff or psd remains. As to, "You 're using way too much club for your hole right now." I loved reading this sentence :-) You wanna elaborate? As to the rest, monitor/printer. Here's the story: I move aroud alot, and I mean a lot in other words I may be here for 6 months and then move and 6 months later move again. What this means is that a printer does not follow me, at times even my monitor will not follow me so no printer calbration is ever taken into consideration but yes I have used software monitor calibration. Having said this I must admit that time and again I have not seen any really noticeale difference (yes i have but only ever so slight) after calibrating a monitor (As mentioned my monitors, because of my moving are usually middle of the road and limited one thing I know is that 32bits per pixel is a good thing). As to, "At this point ....you.....really don't understand what you are doing." You are correct--absolutely-- that is why I mentioned me doing a lot of reading etc. etc. Thanks for you link btw.
Among the things I am reading are, "Color Confidence Digital Photogs Guide to Color Management", "Color Management for Photographers -Hands on Techniques for Photoshop Users", "Mastering Digital Printing - Digital Process and Print Series" and "Real World Color Management - Industrial Strength Production Techniques" And just to show you how deep my ignorance still is, What did you mean by 'non-profiled display' or better still how does one profile a display?

Similar Messages

I Don't Understand Color Management

I'm a relative newbe, but have been digging into Photoshop CS4 pretty intensely the last several months. All in all I think I'm getting a pretty good handle on it and can pretty much do what I want to do ........ EXCEPT Color Management. No matter how much I read on the subject I still don't have even the basic concepts.
First off, my tools include a Nikon D90 -> HP Touchsmart Notebook (uncalibrated lcd screen) ->Photoshop CS4 -> a just purchased Epson r2880.
Let's ignore the Nikon for now and just concentrate on PS and the r2880.
My color settings in PS are Adobe RGB98 and CYMK US Web coated (SWOP) v2
Assuming this is OK must I assign a profile to each individual photo, or is that taken care of automatically? What is the purpose of the profile?
Then when I get ready to print and Color Management is being taken care of by Adobe, do I turn off all color correction in the r2880 or do I use the ICM (which I have downloaded from the web)?
I experiment with the different settings and one seems to work better sometimes than the other, but not consistently.
Any help (to include recommended documentation or literature) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks very much. Some of this is starting to make sense in a (It Depends on ....) sorta way.
Going to your analogy, isn't it true when the photographer takes a picture in RAW
there is no profile, but this is done when opening the image in PS?
I do use adjustment layers pretty effectively.
It's when I'm ready to print that it gets confusing. Is the most likely scenario
to let Adobe of the Printer (with it's premium ICC) handle color management,
or let Adobe handle color management?
And if I let Adobe handle color management, is the most likely scenario to have the printer set
to "No color management" or "ICC color management"?
I suspect the answer is "Experiment and see", but thus far that has produced
a mixed bag of tricks.
A few questions:
1. Are you doing photography?
Yes, that's all I'm doing at the Present.
2. When you print to the Epson - are you trying to proof for a commercial print job, or are you just printing for yourself?
No, this is strictly a hobby.
3. Are you supplying files to a commercial printer?
Again, no.
4. Have you calibrated and profiled your monitor?
No, but that's probably going to be one of next projects. My monitor (and tablet) is actually a small 10" lcd on a HP Touchsmart notebook
Any suggestions as to a low cost solution?
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:17:25 -0600
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: I Don't Understand Color Management
My basic understanding of CM is Source and Destination.
Take a picture, for example. The photographer captures the image in RAW and converts this to an RGB image.
The image is passed on to the designer. If the photographer did their job properly, the image is already tagged with a profile. You can tell this in Photoshop. Beside RGB, there will be *, #, or nothing.
is very, very bad. This means the image is untagged. Nobody knows what it should look like.
means the image is tagged with a profile different from your RGB working space. This is fine.
Nothing means the image is tagged with a profile that matches your RGB working space in Color Settings.
At any rate, the RGB image is usually referred to as a source image. It can be repurposed to a variety of destination color spaces.
The next task is proofing the destination. This can be done on the monitor, if it is properly calibrated and profiled. You can also print a proof (that can get a little more complicated, if you have questions please ask).
For example, you want to know what the image will look like when the commercial printer runs it on his press. Best case scenario is you obtain a CMYK profile from the printer. This is your Proof Color (i.e. Photoshop View: Proof Colors).
Usually it is best to leave source RGB as source RGB. You can place the RGB image in InDesign, and let InDesign convert to CMYK on output. In other words, there is no reason to convert to CMYK in Photoshop (you should however utilize View: Proof Colors)
When you convert in Photoshop you damage the image and there is no going back. This means saving a copy. But by avoiding conversions to CMYK in Photoshop, no need to save copies.
Also by leaving images source RGB, they can be converted to whatever destination you like when you output from InDesign. You could output for a Sheetfed press printing on cover weight coated stock, you could output for a Web press printing on newsprint, or you could even output sRGB for web design. Having source color saves a lot of time, and you're not chasing a bunch of different Photoshop conversions.
Also note: if you make color adjustments in Photoshop, try to use adjustment layers as these are non-destructive.
A few questions:
1. Are you doing photography?
2. When you print to the Epson - are you trying to proof for a commercial print job, or are you just printing for yourself?
3. Are you supplying files to a commercial printer?
4. Have you calibrated and profiled your monitor?
>

Pleae Help me, I've tried it all, Color management broken? (Photoshop only)

Hey guys... I'm at the brink of despair....
whenever I open an Image in Photoshop its colors are completely corrupted (color management broken)
I've tried the following things so far....
Reset Photoshop setting vie holding ctrl + alt + **** while startup - didn't work
Synchronize color settings via Bridge - didn't work
Reinstall Photoshop - didn't work
Adjust my monitor - didn't work
Opened through bridge - didn't work
Does anybody know why its only Photoshop ?
All other software don't seem to have problems, I viewed them in Irfanview and the windows picture viewer and they are correct, but as soon as I open them in Photoshop they're broken..
The color Profiles are the same (Ps settings are sRGB, the image is also set to sRGB) yet broken colors.
Mostly the saturation/brightness and the the color spectrum seems to be incorrect...
Anyone with helpful advices ?
I am studying Communications-design and need to work with PS
Please help
Love
Oz

Ah got ya, with some images, the colors always doffer, sometimes I open an .jpg in Camera raw first to adjust some values and open it in ps afterwards and I dunno why some pics just won't be displayed correctly...
So My Monitor is not a really good one (Samsung Syncmaster p2470) its default ICC profile is: Samsung - Natural color pro 1.0 ICM
I realized that pressing alt + ctrl + shift doesnt affect the color settings... What's the default for that btw ?
So is my monitor even able to display the whole adobe rgb color spectrum or should I go for srgb instead ?
And after setting the color profile for the monitor, should I set my color settings in ps to "monitor" or to the color profile itself ?
But no matter what I should leave the "View" section right ?
Thx
Oz

Trying to understand library management with Premiere

So, I think I'm missing the forest for the trees here but I appreciate the help.
I'm migrating from FCPX to Premiere Pro. I am used to the idea of a library with my videos that I can categorize, tag and prune. This library is not part of any project but when I make projects I can draw upon it.
Now I want to take all my clips and organize them in "the premiere way" whatever that is. But When I open prelude it wants me to make a project. I'm not sure what for as I'm not planning any particular cut right now. All I want is to organize and view my clips and generally rebuild my library.
How should I do this? Or should I just forget this concept, make some folders with my clips on an HD and then wait until i'm making a video of some sort?
Thanks!
Jordan

Coming from a pro stills background, we've got 'archives' here of thousands of images. Catalogued & etc. some, older ones sadly stored but not catalogued. So I know what you're wanting ... a decently searchable & usable library of visual assets, grab what you want for any project.
Um ... though Adobe's made Lightroom into a nearly decent Digital Asset Management program, and supposedly Prelude is the rough equivalent video-wise, they've not actually made it into a DAM program. For some weird reason I cannot fathom. I've had contact with staffers through the Prelude forum, and they're very interested in hearing ideas on DAM set-up for their program, note they probably should have taken that into heart when starting the initial design, continue by noting that actually making it DAM-sort-of would involve a major change in several areas of code design ... and suggest I put in the ol' feature-request forms. Which I have.
So at the moment the 'best' cataloging program for Adobe is ... Lr ... which has some ability to look at & read video files, almost no ability to do much with them, but some ability to track & catalog 'em.
Not the ideal situation I'd like ... to be very, very polite & understated. Which of course, I always am ...

When I try to export pictures of the night sky in Lightroom, they always look brighter than they are in the preview and are filled with white noise/grain. I've tried changing my color management settings, but to no avail. What can I do to fix this?

imgur: the simple image sharer
That's the picture^
Also, doing noise reduction ruins the colour.
Why can't it just export properly...

Since it has always been very basic to backup your computer and all it's data, Apple provides no way for you to transfer music from your iPhone back to your computer. As you know, you can re-download all iTunes purchases, but music that you ripped yourself you'll have to just re-rip again.
You can try and find 3rd party applications that might help you. I'm sure you'll pay, however.
Let this be a very important lesson learned.
Best.

Need help with color management

I am looking for someone to help me. Please!
I am looking for help with Photoshop/printer not printing correct colors.
I have: Windows 7, Photoshop CS5, Photoshop Elements, HP Pavillion Laptop, new Okidata C530dn color laser printer
Previously I had a Canon Pixma MP620 and a gentleman from another forum gave me the correct settings for printing on photo paper and colors were perfect. I now have a OKIdata C530dn color laser and have started a business printing business cards and greeting cards, etc., and I do advertisements on a freelance basis.
I will be working a lot with cardstock or cover stock 65-110 lbs paper. I have an old OKIdata 2024e at work, and the colors are much better with that printer than my new personal one. I have tried matching the settings of that printer to mine to no avail. I have finally gotten the color close, but not quite. When I print on my Canon injet the colors match and print perfectly.
I have tried every setting variation that I can think of to get the color correct with my new OKIdata. I have to get the colors correct or my new business will go under because I can't match colors for my customers. I am a self taught Photoshoper and a novice so please bear with me.
Using Okidata PCL. Also have PS
Color settings in Photoshop:
North America General Purpose 2
sRGB 2.1
U.S. Web Coated Swop v2
Dot gain 20 %
Dot gain 20 %
Preserve embeded profile
Preserve embeded profile
Preserve embeded profile
engine: Adobe (ACE)
Relative Colormetric
Tried RGB color mode and CMYK color mode, no difference
Printer settings:
Photoshop manages colors
sRGB 2.1 Printer profile
Relative Colormetric
Print setup:
Letter
Multipurpose tray
Weight: printer settings-default (when I used heavy setting for cardstock it printed green instead of the color light blue, so that was a start to the right color)
Job Options:
Hight Quality
Color: No color matching
Printer preferences in Printer properties:
Color management
Device: Display 1 generic PnP monitor AMD M88og with ATI Mobility Radeon HD4200
ICC Profiles: Generic PnP Monitor (default)
Advanced:
Windows Color System Defaults:
everything under this tab is set at System Default
I have gotten the color close, but colors are dull. I have tried an adjustment layer and setting the saturation higher, but that doesn't help. I know my laptop is showing the right colors, (calibrated) because I am still printing to the Canon with cardstock and the colors are perfect using the same settings above.
Tried printing in PSE and it gave me an error that it was not a post script printer. Installed ps driver, still getting errors and it wouldn't print.
I would appreciate any help you could give me before I run out of toner and have to buy the expensive toners, or just slit my wrists j/k LOL
Thanks! JS

You need an ICC profile for your printer. Chromix has an excellent service at http://www2.chromix.com/colorvalet/ which will do this calibration for you. You download some software they provide, then print a test file on the exact same paper you are using for your cards. Then send the output to them and they will calibrate the colors with their equipment and send you the ICC profile file. Once you have it, you'll be able to print accurate colors.
There are other services out there that may cost less, but I do not know how reputable they are. Chromix is a good business I've worked with many times.
If you are trying to run a business and you don't understand color management yet, you may be in for a lot of trouble. Please get the book "Real World Color Management" available at http://www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/ and it will save you a ton of money and headaches.

Color management problems - help please!

Hello, I'm trying hard to understand color management and to make colors consistent throughout my workflow, and I'm failing miserably despite reading and re-reading the help files. I'd REALLY appreciate some help with my specific problems, which I'm going to detail here.
WHAT I DO
I make pictures for use on the Web. I do both this by photoshopping existing photos, and by digitally drawing and painting in photoshop starting from a blank document.
HOW MY SYSTEM IS SET UP
1) I have my monitor set to sRGB, and I've calibrated the colors using the Viewsonic calibration app that came with the monitor. The resulting colors look good, to my eyes at least.
2) I've set up Photoshop to use sRGB as the working RGB colorspace, and to convert RGB images to the working colorspace
3) I've set up Photoshop's Save For Web to embed the color profile, to Convert to sRGB, and to Preview with Use Document Profile
THE PROBLEM I'M HAVING
The preview I see in the Save For Web preview screen exactly matches the source document. However, after saving for web, the color of the jpg or gif is significantly different to that of the original document.
If I change the preview mode to Monitor Color, it does show an accurate representation of the jpg or gif that will be saved, but of course as I've explained that is drastically different to the source document.
WHAT I NEED
1) I need the output jpg or gif to match the source document
2) I need to understand what's going wrong so that I can gain some insight into this process. I'm finding it very confusing
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark

Mark,
What model of viewsonic do you have? And is it a CRT or LCD?
If it's a CRT, there are some software based "eyeball" calibrators which can get you in the ballpark. If you have an older version of Photoshop you can use the Adobe Gamma utility that was included in CS2 and earlier versions.
After that, my previous advice still stands, but the best results are still going to be to bite the bullet for a colorimeter and live with the peace of mind that will give you.
If your Viewsonic is an LCD, you're much more limited, as the eyeball calibrators were never designed for LCD's. You can try them and they may be better than nothing, but no guarantees.

Problem: Color Management/Save for Web on Wide Gamut Monitor

Hi,
I've got a problem with color management - I thought I understood it, but it seems as if didn't. So I'm trying to kindly ask for help.
I'm printing, and also trying to save an image for Web.
My setup:
- Win 7, CS 5
- Calibrated Wide Gamut Monitor (eizo cg223w)
- Photoshop set to ProPhoto (I don't want to start a discussion adobergb vs prophoto)
- Save for Web and Devices, Embed Color Profile, Convert to SRGB
- Viewing in Firefox 3.6 with Color Management enabled
Problem:
Image: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/311345/luchs-1024.jpg
If I compare the file in Firefox and Photoshop, the Firefox presentation is slightly more saturated - and I have no idea why.
I thought it should work with the above workflow.
Here is a screenshot where you can clearly see a difference (Note: the additional over-saturation here is caused by the wide gammut monitor when taking screenshots, in reality its not as dramatic as that): http://imgur.com/MFPbU but you can clearly see the difference.
I would be very very thankful for any pointers what I'm doing wrong in my workflow!
Thanks in advance,
Christoph

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ch_bla wrote:
- Monitor calibrated
- Edit under ProPhoto RGB, 16 bit raw files
- Save for Web and Devices, Embed Color Profile, Convert to SRGB
Is this the preferred way?
It's a reasonable and correct way to do it, assuming you want to embed a profile in the images.
Since at least in some browsers and cases the colors selected within the HTML elements must match image colors, one can sometimes make a case for not embedding any profile at all, but that's really looking backwards. Browsers are moving forward toward not only managing colors in images but also in the HTML elements themselves. If you want your images accurately portrayed in as many places as possible you're doing the right thing looking forward.
Personally I embed the sRGB profile in my web images, as you are doing. And I check things primarily with IE and Safari.
Unlike you, I prefer to edit using the sRGB color space, but that's just personal preference. I find it more convenient to use File - Save As instead of File - Save For Web & Devices, and I get caught by gotchas less often this way. Your preference ensures you don't lose any colors at the extremes of the gamut while editing and it could easily be argued that that's better, depending on what image products you produce.
As for the article you mentioned, anyone who would set their preferred working space to Monitor RGB or use Proof Colors in normal editing is asking for trouble, and may not understand color management at all.
-Noel

Need help with color managment addon

I am using Firefox under Fedora 14 Linux. I added the color management addon and told it which profile to use. But I am having some trouble telling if it is working. One problem is that when I use firefox to open an image file on my machine, it gives me the choice of using Image Viewer or Other. Image viewer is Eye Of Gbnome, which doesn't make use of my monitor profile, and I can't think of a convenient other program to use which does use the monitor profile.
Is there some way to get firefox to view the image directly.
I presume when I view images at a distant website, the color managment add-on is inter posing my monitor profile, but I am not sure about that. Is ther e some way to check it?

You need an ICC profile for your printer. Chromix has an excellent service at http://www2.chromix.com/colorvalet/ which will do this calibration for you. You download some software they provide, then print a test file on the exact same paper you are using for your cards. Then send the output to them and they will calibrate the colors with their equipment and send you the ICC profile file. Once you have it, you'll be able to print accurate colors.
There are other services out there that may cost less, but I do not know how reputable they are. Chromix is a good business I've worked with many times.
If you are trying to run a business and you don't understand color management yet, you may be in for a lot of trouble. Please get the book "Real World Color Management" available at http://www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/ and it will save you a ton of money and headaches.

Advice on color management and workflow?

Hi all,
I'm new to photography and trying to learn color management, so I had a few questions I was hoping I could provide some advice on. My objective is to get what I see on the screen to match the prints I get from Costco.
First, I've calibrated my screen (G5 24" Al) with a Huey. In Huey Preferences, I select "web browsing and photo editing" (I think this gives me a particular color temp and Gamma setting).
I'm on my third Huey device, the first two seemed to give me a red/brown color cast; I calibrate at night with all the lights off and the brightness to the lowest setting - even then, can you accurately calibrate these glossy screens?
Next, in my Display Preferences, I make sure the Huey profile is selected. Then, I download the Costco printer icc files from the appropriate website. I install these into user/Library/ColorSync/Profiles. I can see them when I open ColorSync. I assume this is the right way to go?
Lastly, I'm using a Rebel XTi set to sRGB colorspace and working in RAW. I noticed however that the camera embeds sRGB for JPEGs, but Adobe 1998 for RAW.
Now, in Aperture:
What Proofing Profile should I use? Adobe 1998 (since that's what came in on the RAWs), or my Huey profile (since that should match my iMac's Display Prefs setting)? Or the Costco profile (since that's the printer I'm trying to get prints on)?
Let's say I get the picture looking the way I like with contrast, exposure etc. while using Adobe 1998 proofing profile. If I then select the Costco profile for proofing, my picture gets dark, washed out and loses a ton of detail and contrast. (I noticed this also happens if I export, open in Preview, then use Assing Profile and select the Costco profile). I looked at the Costco profile in ColorSync and it appears to be a smaller gamut that Adobe and sRGB. Does this sound right?
In the end, I can always select "auto color correct" when I upload to Costco for prints, but I'd sure like to understand if I'm doing something wrong!
Thanks!

Hi,
Colour temp should be 6500k,gamma 2.2.
In aperture you should set the proofing profile at what is coming of the camera ie adobe 1998 for raw etc.Work on images in the profile from your camera.
In the aperture presets under image export set the coloursync profile to your costco profile.
Export your finished images to a folder on your desk top and then get them printed.
This works for us ( we do the same with photoshop ).We send images to fuji machines ects and the results match what we see on screen.
Your image will look bad because you are looking at it in the profile for the printing machine.May be send a couple of test prints first to check it out.
Also check with your lab to see if they have an upto date profile for their machine,drycreeks profiles
could be quite old or may not match the current paper type the your lab is running.
hope this may be of some help,but please note that this is the way we do it,there may be a better way or a different way,
regards
daisy

Photoshop CS5 Color Management

My question has a complicated back story, but here is where I'm at. I'm still a newby when it comes to color management. I'm running Photoshop CS5, Lightroom 3.3, Windows 7 64-bit, Dell Studio XPS desktop, and a new Dell U2311H monitor. I really struggled several months ago trying to learn color management and Photoshop printing work flow, and may have made an error during that process that created my situation. When I attach a new monitor (or different monitor), all of my images in Bridge, Photoshop, and Lightroom display with a strong pink/magenta cast. Images displayed by applications that are not color managed look normal. Once I calibrate the new/different monitor (with Spyder2Express), and reboot, the color managed images display normally. If I go to the Control Panel, and assign another profile (such as sRGB IEC61966-2.1) as the default profile for the monitor, all images continue to display normally. If I go to the Control Panel, and disassociate ALL profiles from the monitor, the images displayed by Bridge, Photoshop and Lightroom again display with a strong pink/magenta cast.
If no profile has been assigned to the monitor on which Photoshop is going to display an image, what does Photoshop do that might result in a pink/magenta image? Might I have a corrupted profile somewhere, or might I have miscoded something in Color Management that is causing the condition? If I need to provide some additiional info, please let me know what info is needed.
Thanks for any assistance..

Andrew, thanks so much for taking the time to respond. I believe I found
and corrected my problem last night. When I attempted to do my own printing
from Photoshop last summer, I experimented a lot as I tried to figure out
the work flow. I discovered last night that I had apparently introduced an
error into the Monitor Color settings under Color Settings. The RBG Work
Space under Monitor Color was set to "Monitor RBG - xxxxx", where xxxxx was
the profile for the Epson paper I was experimenting with last summer! I
suspect that Protoshop was using that profile when I didn't provide any
other profile for the display. I changed that setting to "Monitor RBG -
sRBG", and my problem (the strong magenta casts when displaying images
without profiling the monitor) is gone.
I have been using the Spyder2Express for the past couple of years, and
usually work with a monitor I have previously calibrated with the Spyder.
This magenta problem only showed up when I switched to a new monitor, and
displayed images before running the first calibration. I wanted to resolve
the magenta problem, however, to determine whether it might be connected to
two other problems I have involving color management. The first was my
attempt last summer to print on a "hand me down" Epson 2200 printer. I
finally got the work flow figured out, but was never able to eliminate a
slight magenta cast from some of my prints. I tried printing from three
computers, using two operating systems, downloaded the 2200 driver and paper
profiles numerous times, printed on two different Epson papers, printed test
prints of the same image on two other printers (without the slight magenta
cast). I've given up on the 2200 for now!
My latest concern, which really prompted my renewed interest in color
management, is my latest monitor calibration. I just purchased a Dell
U2311H, and calibrated it with the Spyder2Express. At the end of the
calibration/profiling process, the Spyder provides a before/after view.
With other monitors, I've always felt that the calibration/profiling process
improved the test image. With the Dell U2311H, however, it appears to my
eyes that the "before" image looks super, while the "after" image appears to
have a yellowish, or yellowish-green, cast, and the after image is also
"lighter", giving the image a bit of a "washed out" look.
Any suggestions on what I might try next?
Thanks again for your help, Andrew. By the way, I read the two articles you
sent links for. I especially enjoyed the article on matching display and
prints. I'll keep rereading that one until it all soaks in!
Mike
www.mikelandwehr.smugmug.com

Color Management Problem

I just installed Photoshop CS3 on my home PC, and seem to be having a problem with color management. When opening photos taken with my Canon G9, or even pictures downloaded off the web, in Photoshop they appear badly posterized. Viewing the same photos in the Canon ZoomBrowser, or with the standard Windows XP tools, they appear correct.
Obviously, my color management is not properly configured. I am using the standard North American defaults with sRGB for my RGB working space, and I've tried every RGB color management policy. My monitor is an older Dell 24" LCD (I don't have the model number in front of me right now). My monitor is not calibrated, but that would not account for the dramatic difference I see in Photoshop vs. other viewing applications.
The best I can achieve is by switching the RGB working space to Monitor RGB (or proofing with that configuration), and discarding the embedded color profile (sRGB in my Canon images). And yes, Photoshop does list the specific color space profile for my Dell monitor. This still results in a different color rendition from that which I see when viewing the same photo in other applications, with blues shifted slightly toward purple.
I have several other Mac and PC based Photoshop systems in my office, but I haven't had the chance to see how the same pictures look on those. It seems to me that this is something particular to the color space of my Dell monitor, but I'm not sure of the appropriate way to correct it.

Your prints are too dark. So you need to either make your monitor darker,
or your prints lighter. Given that you are probably fairly happy with your
monitor for cruising the web, etc, let's focus on your printer.
If it's like my HP, there is a brightness adjustment in the printer driver
under Start>Settings>Printers and Faxes><"printer name">. Adjust it until
the overall brightness of the print matches, as closely as possible, the
appearance of your screen.
To save paper and ink, I recommend that you print a thin strip at the top
of the page, and snip off the strip after each test.
Here is a test strip that you can use, with a variety of blurred skin tones
as well as a gray test strip. The procedure is documented here:
http://curvemeister.com/downloads/TestStrip/digital_test_strip.htm
As a final check, download images from any well-known web gallery and print
them, or use one of the calibration images from www.drycreekphoto.com . If
they are too dark or too light, you may want to revisit the brightness of
your monitor.
Trust your vision, and treat this as a learning experience. With a little
patience, and a systematic procedure, you can get good results without a
calibration device.
Monitor calibration devices are a valuable tool in a professional or high
end amateur setting. No one is saying they are a complete solution to
matching display to printer, and some final tweaking may be necessary for
matching print and display.

Printing, Soft Proofing & Color Management in LR 1.2: Two Questions

Printing, Soft Proofing, and Color Management in LR 1.2: Two Questions
There are 2 common ways to set color management in Adobe CS2:
1. use managed by printer setting or,
2. use managed by Adobe CS2 program.
I want to ask how Color Management for Adobe LR 1.2 differs from that in CS2?
As is well known, Color Management by printer requires accurate printer profiles including specific model printer, types of ink and specific paper. It is clear that this seems to work well for LR 1.2 when using the Printer module.
Now lets consider what happens one tries to use Color Management by Adobe LR 1.2. Again, as is well known, Color Management by printer must be turned off so that only one Color Management system is used. It has been my experience that LR 1.2 cant Color Manage my images correctly. Perhaps someone with more experience can state whether this is true or what I might be doing to invalidate LR 1.2 Color Management.
Specifically, I cant use Soft Proofing to see how my images are changed on my monitor when I try to use the edit functions in LR 1.2. Martin Evening states in his text, The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom Book that it is not possible to display the results of the rendered choices (Perceptual or Relative) on the display monitor. While it is not clear in Evenings text if this applies to LR 1.2, my experience would suggest that it still applies to the 1.2 update even though the publication date of his book preceded this update.
Can someone with specific knowledge of Adobe LR 1.2 confirm that Color Management and Soft Proofing with LR 1.2 hasnt been implemented at the present.
The writer is a retired physicist with experience in laser physics and quantum optics.
Thanks,
Hersch Pilloff

Hersch,
since just like me, you're a physicist (I am just a little further from retirement ;) ) I'll explain a little further. computer screens (whether they are CRT or LCD) are based on emission (or transmission) of three colors of light in specific (but different for every screen) shades of red, green, and blue. This light stimulates the receptors in your eye which are sensitive to certain but different bands of red, green and blue as the display emits, making your brain think it sees a certain color instead of a mix of red green and blue. Printers however, produce color by modifying the reflection of the paper by absorbing light. Their color mixing operates completely differently than displays. When you throw all colors of ink on the paper, you get black (the mixing is said to be subtractive) instead of white as you get in displays (the mixing there is additive). The consequence of this is that in the absence of an infinite number of inks you cannot produce all the colors you can display on a monitor using a printer and vice versa. This can be easily seen if you compare a display's profile to a printer profile in a program such as Colorsync utility (on every mac) or
Gamut vision. Typically printers cannot reproduce a very large region in the blue but most displays on the other hand cannot make saturated yellows and cyans.
Here is a flattened XY diagram of a few color spaces and a typical printer profile to illustrate this. Most displays are close to sRGB, but some expensive ones are close to adobeRGB, making the possible difference between print and screen even worse.
So, when the conversion to the printer's profile is made from your source file (which in Lightroom is in a variant of prophotoRGB), for a lot of colors, the color management routine in the computer software has to make an approximation (the choice of perceptual and relative colorimetric determine what sort of approximation is made). Soft proofing allows you to see the result of this approximation and to correct specific problems with it.

How to Turn off Color Management in Photoshop 7

Wondering if anyone can guide me through the steps of turning off Color Management in Photoshop 7 so that my Epson 2200 manages the color?
I've already tried turning off color management in photoshop color settings and also in the printing box. My photographs print out perfect in iPhoto
but I am limited in printing size.
Thanks

Agree, turning off color management in the color settings is 100% the wrong thing to do.
Under printer profile, select the DocumentRGB profile.
NO! Select the PRINTER profile (and paper type, etc. as needed).
The instructions you gave will give unmanaged color, and offer no chance for the printer to do it's thing at all. (guaranteed fail)
Having Photoshop manage the color, converting to the printer profile, and telling the printer driver to get the heck out of the way is far more likely to give useful prints.

Color Management Confusion-Photoshop and monitors

Ok, so I am asking this question because I am literally at my wits end with this color management stuff. I have become so confused in the past few days that I can’t even think straight. Anyway, I am hoping you all can help me “understand” how it all work. Let me start with some background information (since I know it will probably be asked)
am a photographer, I utilize Lightroom 4 and CS3 (I know its old but I am planning on getting CS6 soon).
put my pictures on the web that I will assume will be viewed on multiple different browsers.
also will be sending my pictures to print at mpix or whcc. I may decide to print my own but haven’t really made that determination at this point.
have a mac book pro that I work from.
Ok, so I need to get a monitor to work with but I am unsure if I should just buy the thunderbolt mac monitor or get a wide gamut monitor. I have heard so many people say that the wide gamut monitors just messed them up. Also, I am bit confused on the nature of monitor profiles and how they work with photoshop and lightroom. I would assume the monitor applies a profile at all times? I also don’t understand the existence of the prophoto and wide gamut profiles for the mac monitors… they clearly are not wide-gamut monitors, so how do these profiles exist for them, and why would they be useful (if you set the profile to prophoto for example, it is all washed out as expected). Are these profiles “assigning” a profile to the color? I am assuming so because if they were converting them to just a standard rgb then you wouldn’t have the faded colors (correct?).
I just am so nervous that I am going to create something that looks great in Lightroom or Photoshop but that looks awful on the browser, or worse, on a different monitor (standard monitor) and I would have no idea that it looked bad. Or, if I send something to a printer only to get a mess back.
Also, please let me know if I correct in this. If I am in photoshop and I have an untagged image (send via a friend), and lets just say it is really a prophoto image (although my friend didn’t tell me) and I say to assign the prophoto profile (upon import to photoshop). If that truly is the correct profile, the image should look correct. Now consider two scenarios from there: 1) I embed that profile in the image, if I upload that to the web (I know to be cautious, you should always use srgb for web), if the person has a color managed browser, the image would properly appear, because the browser would recognize the profile (in this case “prophoto”) and convert it to whatever it needed to be. But, if it was not a color managed browser, I run the risk that the web browser will just assign a profile, which will wash the photo out most likely, correct? Ok… and scenario 2) after I get the image from my friend and assign the prophoto profile (since that is the correct profile the image was actually created in, although it was untagged when it was sent to me), the image will look correct… BUT, is photoshop displaying the prophoto profile, or is it converting to RGB for my viewing, or is my monitor converting it to rgb for my viewing? I guess I just don’t understand how the monitor fits into all of this. You HAVE to use your monitor to see your images, and since most monitors (including my current one are standard gamut) it would make sense that you actually can’t see anything in the prophoto profile, and you are truly looking at an srgb profile since that is all your monitor can display.
Oh ya, and what benefit is the color match rgb? It seems everyone speaks of the srgb, prophoto, and argb.. but never some of the others.. so maybe I am just lost. I would even appreciate a link to some tutorials if you think those would be helpful.
I am seriously confused.. I would really appreciate the help.

I am not surprised you are confused about colour management because its a confusing subject. Luckily you own a Mac so you can get to grips with what the problems that colour management solves using the "colorSync Utility" and you will find this in Applications >> Utilities >> colorSync Utility. If you own a windows computer then I am sorry but you will be out of luck here and you should know better when you buy your next computer!! I am not sure why Apple gave us this application but it is really useful and all will help you understand Color Management.
1. Launch Applications >> Utilities >> ColorSync Utility.
2. You will see a list of "Installed ColorSync Profiles". Choose Adobe RGB 1998 which I hope you have chosen in you camera preferences.
3.You will see a 3D representation of the Adobe 1998 Colour space. This represents all the colors this colour space will hold.
4. Top left hand corner you will see a little arrow pointing down next to "Lab Plot". Click on this and a drop down menu will appear.
Choose "Hold For Comparison"
5. Now somewhere in the "Installed ColorSync Profiles" list you will find the profile for you monitor. Choose this.
6. You will now see a new colour space inside the Adobe 1998 Colour space. If you have a cheap monitor the colour space will be small
inside the Adobe 1998 profile. This means that you monitor cannot show you all the colors that are missing.
7. Now choose a printer profile say, if you use them a profile for an Epson paper or any printer profile you have and you will see another profile in the Adobe 1998 box which shows you the only colors that your printer can print. If you like choose your monitor profile then hold for comparison then the printer profile and it will clearly show the mis match between you monitor and printer.
8. Now choose SRGB and this will show you what colors a person using an average Windows monitor can see, poor people.
So this is the problem, all devises can reproduce only a certain range of colors. The adobe 1998 profile does not show all the colors our eyes can see " choose Generic Lab" profile, then "hold for comparison" then Adobe 1998 and you will see Adobe 1998 is a small profile but is a good average of our collective colour vision.
So how to solve all these missing colour problems. Well if you think of each devise, including you camera as speaking a different language from you monitor and printer then it is easy to understand that you need some sort of translator so that they all know exactly what colour is being talked bout pixel by pixel in an image. This is held in the ICC profile, but an ICC profile has o do more than this.
Say you camera can produce a specific red we will call for demo purposes "001" and your monitor cannot produce it, how do you solve this? Well it is very easy to fool our eyes. Our eyes work by comparison so if the profile maps red "001 to the nearest red that the monitor can show and then proportionally remaps all other reds to fit within the reds the monitor can show us then we actually think we are seeing a full range of reds. The problem comes if we use the wrong profile for this. The red 001 could be re mapped anywhere and could be outside what the monitor can show. Say that happens but the printer can reproduce that red 001. We would see an image on the monitor with not many reds and when we printed it we would be shocked to find reds on the print. Worst, we would see an image on the monitor without reds and would correct for this and end up with a print with heavy reds and would not be able to work out why.
So to solve this we should:
1. use the correct camera profile when we are opening "Raw" files.
2. Make sure you have the correct monitor ICC profile selected in "System Preferences" >> Displays.
3. In photoshop we should make sure that the " Edit >> colour settings " are set to Adobe 1998 for RGB.
4. If you are going to print you own photo in Photoshop go to "View >> Proof Setup >> Custom" and a box will
open. Choose the profile of your printer and paper and choose "Perceptual" for rendering intent and then " OK". If you cannot find
a profile for you printer and paper go to the printer of paper manufactures web site and download the profiles and instal
them.
5. You can now adjust the colors and contrast and photoshop will simulate how the output devise will deal with this. If you
are using an outside printing house, they will supply you with their ICC profile to download so just follow the same procedure and
choose their ICC profile and and do you colour correction.
If you have a cheap monitor you will still not get a 100% result but you will get closer. You really need a monitor that you can calibrate
regularly because generic ICC profiles are just that. They are made from the results of many monitors and so are 90% or worse accurate.
If you want to see a flag ship monitor at work go to http://www.eizo.com/global/support/db/products/software/CG223W#tab02 and go
to the bottom of the page and download the Eizo Coloredge CG223W monitor profile, instal it on your mac then open then ope
Launch Applications >> Utilities >> ColorSync Utility choose Adobe 1998 the hold and compare it with the Eizo Coloredge CG223W
profile. This is not the top of the range Eizo monitors that we use but you will see that this monitor will show most of the missing colour you monitor does not. This is actually a good tip if you are buying a monitor. Download the monitors profile and see how good it really is.
The weak link still is printing. The colors you see in RGB on a back lit RGB screen are very hard to reproduce by CYMK inks on paper. Here you really should have a profile made for your printer and chosen paper. If you don't want the expense of buying a calibrator and doing it yourself, there are on line services that will do this for you.
One final point you must remember. If you are using soft proofing in Photoshop ( "View >> Proof Setup >> Custom" as explained above), when you print you MUST choose in "Colour Handling" "Photoshop Manages Colour" and in the next step when the printing box appears
you will see a drop down box with "Layout" in it. Click on this and choose "Colour Management and choose "Off No Colour Management". If you do not do this Photoshop will manage the colour then the printer will do it again and the print will be a disaster.
This is a starting point really. Colour management is difficult but just try to remember that you need a translator between each step in the process to make it work so you have to make sure the correct profiles are being used by you camera, the program you use for opening the Raw photo files (Please don't use jpegs straight from the camera, but thats another subject), the correct monitor profile and output profile. If you don't check these it is like chinese whispers and your picture will be printed in Double Dutch!!.
Hope that helps. I am on location In Italy for a couple of months so will be unlikely to be able to reply to any questions for a while. Will try to check back and see how you are getting on. Drop me a line at [email protected] if you have any questions. Good luck.
Paul Williams

Trying to Understand Color Management

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