VDSL modem in sync, HH3 and HH2v2 power cycles int...

Dear All, Firstly this is my first post on the forums so hello to all. On to my topic, A friend of mine has a very very interesting FTTC fault. The VDSL modem is in sync, but the HH3 from 3 blue lights, will suddenly shut off and restart. This happens any ware between every 10-45 mins. Here is the fun bit: Engineers have replaced the modem and the HH3 3 times. They have even tried a HH2 infinity router which lasted longer than the 3 but to no avail. The modem and Router are both plugged into a surge protector. They have both been tried on regular sockets. The VDSL modem is always happy, in sync but the routers are being power cycled. There is no line issues, no CRCs as the engineers have said. The speeds to the VDSL modem are all fine, and the speed of the BB is working fine, its just the random power cycling of the routers that has everyone stumped. Yes its been turned off and on Yes its all plugged in Yes all cables have been tried and tested One Ethernet device, other wireless laptops There is no trigger, weather simple MSN text or HD streaming there seems to be no trigger as such for the router So tech guys, i would not bother you with a simple one, here is the mystery, whats the theory's?

After a worrying start very nice replies thanks guys! so firstly
@ HH replacements he had one, BT sent him one and the engineer used one. I know for a fact these are all from different batches.
@ channel changing Not only would the amount of random channels the smart wireless would have been using with the ammount of swaps, the engineer set the wireless channel whilst doing interrogations on the router.
@ electircal supply Here was the ebst bit, the engineer knows about REIN (f Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise). In the room with the router there are LOTS of powerboards and power adaptors link multiple supplys. There are pets, a pc, standard sky tv boxs and relavant go withs. SO yeah lots of stuff. The uncle is a sparky, checked the house and said all good. We have a UPS (i think thats what it is called) which can deliver a constant voltage no matter what, even from that it was going fine then boom power cycle.
Feed back from 12 hour obs: The HH2 apparently has made it much more berable, taking around an hour or more till it resets. Engineer came round and did a lift and shift to get a new port from the dslam. At that point the engineer had been told he had to leave, but he justified it. There was nothing else that they can do, port, line, socket, HH modem have all been eliminated from the enquiery.
At this point the router had been moved by the enginner to the best poisbble location in the lounge for it to not be near a source of potential REIN. Then he told us that he wanted to find out what the problem was because it was a "mystery" and he was interested. He told about REIN and how to test for it (AKA long time of having not a lot plugged in and before anyone got mad (and lets be real this guy was not just going to come over and say "sorry man we don't know how to fix this" ) he also advised us to talk to our Service provide (aka BTR ) and to tell them what the issues are. So what do people think of this ?

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I may have mistated. The APC manual states the following:
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I have the cable modem and linksys router plugged into the same power surge. I noticed that I need to power up the cable modem first in order to register ISP info with my broadband service. If I powered up the router and modem at the SAME time(along with the desktop), my router does not configure the DCHP address on time, and my PC will not have Internet Connectivity. Internet Explorer web pages (including the default home page) will load very slow or produce an error after a while, and if you view your router Status page you'll see no Current Time available. At this time, I am forced to Release/Renew IP address and continually hit Refresh on the status page to regain Internet Connectivity and correct data(Time stamp, DNS, Domain name, Default gateway,etc....). It doesn't sound like a big deal, but what if you're not home and another user boots up my PC and sees no Internet connection? Manually renewing IP address info can become a hassle, when the router's DHCP service should automatically do this in the first place.
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That status page has been configured many times. How many times do you think I've been in and out of that 192.168.1.1 interface? DHCP was enabled and automatic from the start, and the MAC address is cloned.
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VDSL modem/routers and FTTC self-install

Has anybody seen any more information related to this story? The possibility of using VDSL combined modem/routers and customer self-installation looks interesting.
http://recombu.com/digital/news/fibre-broadband-whos-doing-it_M10883.html#BT%20pilot%20could%20pave%...

Icarus wrote:
An FTTC Self Install Pack. Openreach had best start training an army of Broadband Boost trained engineers before that comes out.
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HT1430 My phone locked up during sync to I tunes, Power button and sleep/wake don't work

My phone locked up during sync to I tunes, Power button and sleep/wake don't work.

We here http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1808 and here http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4097

Questions and answers on DLM, sync speed and real ...

I was confused about some DML details and posted on a BE forum (https://avatar.bethere.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43542) and got what was to me an incredibly helpful response from Tom (drsox). I thought it would be of interest to some readers here so copy it below. Once again, many thanks Tom.
1) FTTC DLM applies only between the cabinet and the modem?
>> Yes, as there isn't any broadband / data signal going anywhere further down the line to the exchange if you are on FTTC!
2) What are the different parameters that apply on this hop? I know there is a current sync speed, a current snr, a target snr and an ip profile. Anything else?
>> The IP profile isn't really related to DLM, it just "follows" your sync rate. In the past the IP profile would take up to 3 days to "follow upwards", leaving you with a high sync and awful speeds! This has been changed now on 21cn and "RE-ppp"ing (rebooting the router) would force the IP Profile to update instantly.
DLM changes the SNR target. So where BE have hard coded / set SNR targets such as 3db, 6db, 9db, 12db etc.. They only change upon user request. BT use their DLM system where line instability or line error counts are collected and analysed, the SNR target and interleaving settings are then modified in increments to try and stabilise the line.
This image shows quite well how, over a 6 day period, BTs DLM noticed that my line fault was fixed. I didn't get the full speed back for a week.
3) Is the ip profile the same as the BRAS profile?
>>Yes
4) The DLM keeps statistics of errors etc to dynamically change the ip profile?
>> Changes the SNR target and interleaving for the line which will reduce the speed, and therefor the IP profile.
5) There is a general theory that the DLM is incapable of telling the difference between an error and a modem power cycle, so that power cycling can cause your profile to lower. Is that correct?
>> Yes, if you resync / power cycle your router multiple times in a day it is likely to try and "combat the line errors" and reduce your sync rate by increasing the SNR and / or interleaving on the line.
6) Can other connections and disconnections have the same effect? For example, if I reboot the router (where this is separate from the modem)? Or use the router interface to disconnect/reconnect the broadband?
>> PPP drops (router reboots while leaving the BT Openreach VDSL modem on and connected) won't affect DLM. The IP profile will match your sync rate upon reconnection of the PPP session.
7) If you have a low ip profile, does this mean that the sync is limited to the ip profile?
>> Other way around, if you have a low sync rate then the IP profile will match the sync rate. If you get an awful sync rate and the IP profile follows downwards, then you resync higher but the router "keeps the PPP session open" (which is possible if you resync quick enough) then your IP profile will stay low, even though the sync is high. Until you reboot your router or disconnect and reconnect the PPP session.
8) Can the sync rate change dynamically without a reconnection? If the ip profile gradually rises, will the cabinet force a resync to make sure the customer is actually getting the benefit of the higher ip profile, or must the user intervene with a modem resync?
>> See above - Sync can rise without affecting the IP Profile and the cabinet does not force a RE-PPP.
8) As I understand it, if the ip profile gets stupidly low for some reason, it can only be reset by BT wholesale? This will only be done after a visit to your home and a telephone call from the engineer to the BT wholesale central admin?
>> Mixed reports plus I don't think people understand the difference between sync speeds, line faults, the delay in DLM increasing sync after a fault.. I expect half the reports on the BT forum are not related to a stuck BRAS / IP profile. It is possible for the ISP or a BT engineer to reset the IP profile and possibly DLM training.
9) (8) This applies to all ISPs using BT Wholesale: some may be more willing to force this process to happen on behalf of their customers, but none can cirumvent it?
>> GEA providers (I believe) still have DLM but don't have BRAS / IP profiles unless they implement their own.
10) Who sets the snr? As I understand it, the customer has no direct control. Is this different for different ISPs?
>> Mixed information again, I believe that BT Wholesale give providers DLM override controls and SNR settings but none? (or few) ISPs use this system.
11) Real download/upload speeds are physically limited by the sync rate. They are also naturally limited by local limitations (such as wireless connections), server limitations, and congestion at various points along the route? Any more? The congestion along the route will vary bewteen ISPs as they use different routes with different capabilitues.
>> It is possible for BTs regional or local cabinet network to become congested. Supposedly the minimum speed you should achieve over the BT part of the network is 15mbps. ISPs such as Plusnet, BT etc.. then layer their own "discriminatory" traffic management on top of that (ie, slow down torrents etc.).
12) Real speeds are 'unnaturally' limited by throttling. This will also vary from ISP to ISP. Sky claims to have none, and BT none except for p2p. PlusNet and John Lewis have significant (but well explained)throttling. All the more expensive operators have none.
>> What you said
13) The ip profile affects the sync rate, and therefore actual speeds. Does the ip profile effect actual speeds in any other way?
>> Not quite right. The IP profile directly affects the speeds you can achieve but the sync rate affects the IP profile. The sync rate is determined by the stability and quality of your line and what DLM thinks it can cope with.
14) Many people (including AndrueC above) report real speeds from speedtests that are consistent and not close to the ip profile. These can't be explained by congestion (that would make them inconsistent). They can't be explained by server limitations, as they are consistent accross servers and the same servers give better speeds to other people. They can't be explained by local limitations, too many people claim sudden drops where the local conditions have not changed. They should not be able to be explained by throttling, as they as seen for many ISPs who do not throttle (I don't hold with the ISP lying theory here). What other factors are there that can explain these cases?
>> AndrueC and some other Sky customers have strange symptoms where speeds are around 20mbps rather than the full sync speed. The only logical explanation is either local cabinet congestion, contention between BT and the provider's network (not enough investment by the provider) or artificial traffic management on the providers side. It is also possible that the router that the customer has attached to their line is unsuitable for the higher speeds. For example an old ethernet router may only be able to cope with 20 or 30mbps! A friend of mine has a TP-Link ethernet router running Tomato on a BT 80mbps service but the TP-Link's CPU limitation causes his service to only perform at around 68mbps; he has a replacement router on order. (Obviously wifi will significantly reduce performance).
15) If you get a stupidly low ip profile, how long can you except it to take before it climbs to something more reasonable? (eg in my particular case, my profile is currently around 15Mb, and from BT service line tests should be around 58Mb). And the classic question, is it best to power cycle the modem (1) never, (2) occasionally (how often) or (3) never if at all possible? Mine did jump from 3.5Mb to 15Mb on one power cycle. Was that just coincidence?
>> My FTTC line took about 6 to 7 days to go from 40mbps to 80mbps after a line fault. It is possible that your 3.5mbps to 15mbps increase was the "re-ppp" affecting the BRAS profile and that your sync had slowly been increasing over time.

what a waste of money sending an engineer to "fix a fault" which does not exist. Precisely.
In my original BE post to which Tom so helpfully responded, I began: It seems to me that DLM is an excellent concept with a highly flawed implementation, both technically and administratively. I think that sending out an engineer to fix an obviously flawed profile is the main example of an adminastrative flaw. I understand (I can't remember source, maybe Tom again) that they are sometimes relaxing the requirement for a visit before reset.
Maybe the DLM system is too keen on stability vs speed. This will keep complaints down from many people: most users won't notice speed too much as long as it is reasonable, but will be upset if their Skype calls and browsing are being interrupted too often.
However, it does lead to complaints from people who notice the drops after an incidence (as in your thread that has drawn lots of interest), or who only get 50 instead of 60. The main technical flaw is that DLM can so easily be confused by drops from loss of power, too much modem recycling, etc, and then takes so long to recover.

Bt infinity openreach modem needs power cycling ev...

I have had to power cycle my openreach modem every day for the last two weeks in order to regain connection. I have phoned bt who ran a line test then told me nothing was wrong. Has anybody else had an issue like this or am i going to have to go and buy a vdsl modem myself? Thanks in advance.
Solved!
Go to Solution.

Etclarke wrote:
bt are refusing to replace my modem as i am not using their homehub.
Of course they are refusing, you are not using the equipment they supply and are "out of contract".
I would imagine they want you into a new contract for you to be ale to get a "wonderfull" HH5.
The question here is how far do you want to go?
If you are not using ISP supplied equipment (the modem would've been within start of your contract) then you are on your own regarding equipment unless you can prove the fault happens on entry to your propery.

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Again, there is no computer and this is a camera in use at a remote vacation home. No one is there to fiddle with things when the power burps.
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"Error while trying to sync Audio and Midi"

"Error while trying to sync Audio and Midi" I have been having this problem now and then for some time. Now, I can't run any audio files without a lot of popping. I tried all the suggestions on the support document for this issue. I even downloaded new drivers from Motu for my Express XT Midi interface and my 828MK11 Audio interface. There has been no change. HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Also, I have tried reseting the 828 to factory default and that does not help.
Jonathan Jenkins

Hi,
I solved my own problem by resetting the factory presets:
Follow these steps to restore the MOTU 828mkII to Factory Default Settings.
Disconnect the firewire cable from the 828mkII
Press the Setup knob
Turn the Setup knob all the way to the right
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HT3728 My Time Capsule won't allow me to access my home network each day (intermittently) between about 1000-1800. My modem is working properly, and I can get on-line by hooking my computer straight to my modem, so I know it's the Time Capsule at fault. I

My Time Capsule won't allow me to access my home wireless network for several hours each day -- usually between 1000-1830 or so. My modem is working correctly and I can still get on-line by going straight from my computer (MacBook Pro) to the Ethernet port. It must be the Time Capsule -- any ideas?

Any ideas?
Wireless Interference
Might be caused by a cordless phone in the vicinity. To give you an example, my neighbor.....across the street...used to be able to literally crash my wireless network if he was in his front yard talking on his cordless phone.
I discovered this by accident one day after spending weeks trying figure out why my network would crash at random times.
Other possibilities include a wireless security/camera system near you
Still other things might be an amateur ham radio operator....which should not interfere....but again from experience, I know that this can occur.
Yet another possibility is another wireless network near you that is being turned on and off at random times. Some users power up their modem/router only when they want to do so and leave it off otherwise.
Some general rules to help avoid interference:
Move any cordless phones that you might have as far away as possible from the Time Capsule and/or your computer(s)
Avoid placing other electronic devices....computer, television, amplifier, satellite receiver, etc. near the Time Capsule and/or your computer(s)
Avoid metal surfaces near the Time Capsule and/or your computers
Elevate the Time Capsule as much as possible. Think of it as a water sprinkler....you want to get the room as wet as possible
Experiment with different wireless channels on the Time Capsule. To do this:
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Click on the Time Capsule
Click Edit
Click the Wireless tab
Click Wireless Options
Start with Channel 11 on the 2.4 GHz band and work your way down
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I have the latest Airport Extreme Base Station (no time capsule) connected to a Motorola Surfboard 6121 modem.
When wired directly to the AEBS I get download speeds of 90Mbps+, but after a few hours (I haven't determined if it is consistent) the dowloand speed drops to about 1-4Mbps. Power cycling the cable modem brings back the original speeds.
Please Note: When wired directly to the cable modem the speed of 90Mbps+ are consistent over several days (I haven't tested longer).
The drop in speed only happens when connecting through the AEBS, no matter if I'm connected wirelessly or directly.
My next test will be to see whether powercycling only the AEBS resets the speed the way powercylcing the modem does.
Any thoughts? I would rather not have to restart my connection everytime I go to use it.
Thanks!

The issue happens when I have the following setup:
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or
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Bt Infinity, HH3 and Airport Express

am thinnking about taking BT infinity. THis apparently needs HH3. Have seen threads about connection problems between HH3 and airport express. (I had similar problems with HH2, so resorted to old BT Voyager)
1. does anyone know if problems with HH3 and airport express can be fixed
2. Can I use BT infinity with a BT Voyager
thanks

Re: "If you get Infinity you will not need the HH3 in the first place you can just connect the Airport Express to the Openreach modem."
No use at all. I don't know what you use your Airport Express for, but mine is used to send music to our hi-fi, and so has to be connected to the hi-fi. Therefore it cannot also be connected to the modem.
This worked fine when I used to get my internet via (whisper quietly) Virgin. But with BT Infinity it would lose its connection every now and then. Apple provided a free replacement but that was no better. Following a few tips (e.g. connect to one's laptop via ethernet cable for setup) I was able to set up a connection eventually, but it still loses connection quite frequently. Interestingly enough, resetting the hub gets it going again, though restarting AE does not!

VDSL modem in sync, HH3 and HH2v2 power cycles int...

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