24p in 30p timeline

I recently purchased a Canon 7D and am trying to edit with iMovie 09. I would love to get Final Cut Pro but at the moment I just can't afford it. This is just a hobby of mine with no real plans of changing that in the near future. My question is, since iMovie 09 does not support 24p, would it be ok to shoot 24p, edit it in iMovie with a 30p AIC timeline? Will this keep the same look of 24p? I guess this is a 3:2 pulldown when you import 24p footage? Will the sync be ok?
Thanks.

There is an exact procedure you must follow to input 1080p24 and export 1080p24. Google "The Ins and Outs of iMovie 09." you cant record 1080p24 with toast for BD. but you can export to h264 and play on a WDTV. Thats whar i do wit 1080p24 from my Pana AVCHD camcorder.

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Panasonic DVX100a 24p vs 30p in FCP

Hi, I am renting 3 Panasonic DVX100s to video a ballet performance in April. I rented on this weekend to use so I can learn about it.
I don't see any difference between 24p and 30p. Is there any difference in FCP?
Would there be any significant difference between the two when shooting a ballet?
Thank you for any advice.
Brock Fisher
San Diego

Keep in mind, 24p on the 100 is one thing... 24p on a sequence is something else. 24p does NOT mean 24 frames per second when shooting with the dvx. 24pA does (with added step).
I guess my thought would be to test it out at a rehearsal and see what you really want.
Do you want Franco Zeffirelli or do you want the irreverent Peter Sellers (the director, not the actor).
Make sure you really understand what that camera's choices are and how you can use them to your advantage.
CaptM

24p vs 30p for a documentary

Hi all. So I'm dipping my toe into the documentary film pool and I need to purchase a better camera. I have narrowed it down to the Panisonic AG-DVX100* or Panasonic AG-DVC30. The DVC30 is a hair cheaper but it doesn't have 24p. Two questions.
-How noticeable is the difference between 24p and 30p?
and
-Can FCE actually handle 24p?
I've been searching the discussion board and I'm just a little confused on the matter. I'm sure one of you with some experience could clear it up for me. I want this first film to look good but it doesn't have to be immaculate. From what I understand, FCE can't handle 24p but it can handle 30p (29.97). Am I correct? This will help me in my decision process between the two cameras. Has anyone had experience with the AG-DVC30? I've heard nothing but rave reviews of the DVX100. Thanks in advance.
MacBook Pro 1.83 ghz 2gb Mac OS X (10.4.10)

Last weekend I rented a Panasonic AG-DVX100B. I chose the F5 preset for 24p (not advanced), cine-like, etc.
When I imported it into FCE 3.5 I got 30-interlaced.
I tried re-importing into a fresh, new project in FCE but FCE still shows the imported videos as 30-interlaced. I've double-checked the camera settings and it's definitely recording 24p.
Any idea what might have gone wrong?
TIA,
--Richard
G4/867 Tower Mac OS X (10.4.10)

Exporting 24p from a 30p timeline

I'm using the Canon 5D Mark II with it's recent firmware update of 2.0.3 that shoots 24p (23.98). However I have to archive all my projects onto XDCAM pro disc, and the PDW-HD1500 deck I'm recording to only accepts 29.97
I trascoded my native h264 24p footage to XDCAM 1080p24. Once doing that, I drop that 24p footage into a 29.97 timeline, and my machine can output it in real-time through my Kona3 card via HDSDI onto my deck.
So it works fine, but my question is more: what mathmatically is happening to my footage? Is it really recording at 29.97 and "filling in" 6 frames per second? Or staying at 24p? Anyone know a more proper workaround?
I'm not too worried about final products since I export direct to the web, but for archiving and making masters, I want to know how FCP handles the framerate difference...

If you're going out from the AJA, you can decide what pulldown you want to add. If you want to be able to reconstitute a 24fps clip, you should add advanced pulldown (2:3:3:2) instead of the standard 3:2 pulldown. If you add 3:2 pulldown, you'll still have 6 interlaced frames after you remove the pulldown later on. If you add advanced pulldown, you'll be able to remove the interlaced frames and have a true progressive 24p.
You would leave the timeline as 24p, and in the AJA utility, tell it to print to tape with pulldown and then choose the scheme.
If you are bent on doing it with FCP, go into the System Setting/Playback Control tab and set the pulldown scheme to the one you want.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattgoudey/3566728177/sizes/o/

Panasonic DVX100 (original) should I shoot in 24p or 30p?

Hey,
Working on my first feature and will be editing in Final Cut Express HD 3.5. Want our dailies to look progressive scan and filmic should I shoot and edit in 30p?
Chris

I know for the most part you want progressive
That's not necessarily true. For Blu-ray or DVD delivery, 30i would be the better option over 30p or 60p, as 30i can go onto disk "as-is", without any frame rate conversions.
I think the choice on this is purely aesthetic. Do you want the look of film (24p) or the look of video (30i)?
Personally, I shoot everything at 24 fps these days.

24p to 30p SOUND IN SYNC?

Is there a way to convert 30p footage to 24p while keeping the sound in sync and not slowed down.
When I conver the 30p footage to 24p the whole thing is slowed down, including the sound.
How can I resolve this issue?
Thanks.

HannahMatthau wrote:
… ... basically I want to cut out the frozen images and move the sound that's on it to the bit where it's unfrozen... can't be that hard...
and yeah yeah I will
I still have a problem, understanding what you like to achive:
this is your (? no, not really - my comment about © was meant seriously) bad take:
I seperated the audio, I made a split at the beginning of bad scene
I searched for good - which seems the saxophone sequence ...
splitted the audio, "Robby!" as synch-point (a+v)
shifted audio to be in synch with following sequence
=> a 'hole'!
as you can see, the audio and video 'drifts' - video longer than the purple bar.
no you want …wot?
to 'stretch' audio fitting the bad video'?
plus pitching voices?
possible, but no trivia task, Dear ...

24p and 30p?

Okay so lets say I am shooting with my Sony HVR-Z7U in 30p, then decide to change it to 24p or 60i. When I go into Final Cut Pro how should I import it as one video but have FCP recognize the individual frame rates of the video files? I haven't bought the Z7 yet, but I am wondering this because I have an XL2 and when I import the tape, it imports the tape as one video clip. When I capture from the Z7 will it do this or have a new clip every time I hit the record button, like it does with AVCHD camcorders. Please help me!

I think this should answer your question:
http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=8879873#8879873

24p 25p 30p 50p : what's recommended for HD in a PAL environement

While i'm choosing a new digicam that can shoot movies (1920x1080), I wondering what's the frame rate to prefer for editing with FCS to produce Bluray
in a "PAL world".
I'm very interested in a Nikon P510 with its huge zoom but it record at 30p.
Instead of the NiKon a friend suggested the Sony HX200 that shots 50p and 24p...
In other world i would like to have an advice if:
24p it's ok to edit in FCP
30p it's ok to edit in FCP and it's ok (i doubt) in the PAL environement
I'm quite experienced in PAL SD (miniDV --> DVD ) workflow but very confused on the HD one...
Thanks

In a PAL environment you can use either 25p or 50i .... both are the same framerate but one is progressive (p) and one is interlaced. Both can be edited in FCP
24p is often used to give footage the "film look". It is also supported in the Blu-Ray standards and in FCP.
50p/60p are non-standard framerates that are not always supported by NLEs. More often than not they are used to achieve smooth slow motion in post (e.g. 60p to 24p conforming). To my knowledge FCP can handle 50/60p only with the help of third-party capture card. 50/69p is also not supported on Blu-Ray devices.

24P Advanced capture, timeline problem

My original footage is is shot 24PA DV CAM. I am using a sony DV CAM deck to capture. I am capturing using the easy setup setting DV NTSC 48kHz Adavanced (2:3:3:2) Pulldown removal. My sequence settings are 720x480 NTSC DV (3:2); NTSC-CCIR 601 DV; Editing Timebase 23.98; Copressor is DV/DVCPRO-NTSC at 100% quality; Audio is 48kHz-16-bit-Config: default. Field Dominance is grayed out.
I ran a series of 16 second test captures which when loaded into my timeline came up with the olive green stripe in the video portion of the render status line. I know that I can edit with that as that is just a reduced resolution, but when I capture longer clips (minutes in duration) those clips show orange in the render status bar of the same timeline. I also notice that the short clips come into the machine with a field dominance of none, but the long clips have a field dominance of even.
I must make sure that my final edit can go to film.
How can I get the clips to go into the timeline with a gray or olive green render status?
Steven Kemper

Thanks for the welcome, Shane. It's great to be here. To answer your question. Yes, I did use easy setup (I needed to check the show all box to get to the 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown removal option. I even went back into all the settings windows to quadruple check that everything "took" correctly. I am completely baffled as to why a 16 second clip captured under the exact same settings and via the exact same method (capture now) as a 9 minute clip would come into FCP with different properties. The short clip loads into the time line with the olive green in the video portion of the render bar and with a field dominance of NONE in the properties data. The long clip loads into the timeline with an orange render bar and a field dominance of EVEN. This all with me having done the captures back-to-back without touching any settings. All I did was rewind the tape to roughly the same start point, hit the play button and re-engaged the capture now system. What could I be missing or inadvertantly doing wrong?

You shoot 24p, 25p, 30p but iMove 09 treats it as interlace! Why?

If your HD camcorder can shoot “1080p25” (progressive 25fps) or “1080p30” (progressive 30fps), of course you want to shoot using these frame rates. The Canon HV40 and Canon HF S11 are examples of HD camcorders that can shoot progressive video at 25fps (in PAL regions) or at 30fps (in NTSC regions) in addition to “1080i50” or “1080i60.” They can also shoot 24fps.
When you shoot 1080p24, 1080p25, or 1080p30, in most cases progressive video is recorded as interlace video. Both 1080p24 and 1080p30 are recorded as 1080i60 while 1080p25 is recorded as 1080i50.
When iMovie 09 imports this video, it will treat this progressive video as interlaced HD. Unfortunately, iMovie treats interlaced HD badly. If you Stabilize a clip, employ a PIP or Crop, add a Ken Burns effect to a video clip, or use a Wipe or Pseudo-3D transition (such as Cube)—iMovie on-the-fly converts your 1080-line video to 540p (960x540) video. Therefore, all 1080i clips in your movie will lose up to 35% vertical resolution and up to 40% horizontal resolution. This loss of resolution will occur even if you add only one of these effects.
But, what if iMovie didn't do this?
What if iMovie correctly saw progressive HD as progressive HD -- not interlaced HD? This would allow all scaling FX to be used. Moreover, because you ARE shooting progressive HD, NO scaling artifacts would be introduced!
Would this be a benefit to HDV and AVCHD 1080i shooters?
Absolutely! Especially if all this could accomplished without wasting time and image quality recompressing your video.

The Pana 300 is a great camcorder, but I wish it shot 30p. If you want a Cine look you'll have to shoot 24fps rather than the easier to use 30fps.
Anyway, about removing pulldown:
1) You CAN remove 2-3 pulldown. But, it requires a recompresion from AIC to AIC after your clips' AVCHD is converted by iMovie to AIC. This would provide real 1080p24. I call this "TRUE 1080P." But, with a MacBook this might take too long. And, you lose a generation of quality!
2) A better solution is to get iMovie to treat your video as though it has no pulldown and is progressive. I call this "FALSE 1080P" because once 2-3 pulldown is added during recording, the video has BECOME interlaced. (I'll explain about this in my other thread on dealing with 1080i50 and 1080i60.)
PS: The reason I prefer to shoot 1080p30 is because then the goal is to get iMovie to treat 25p/30p video as though it were progressive. I call this "TRUE 1080P" because it really IS progressive.
We know what it is, but iMovie doesn't. And, how can iM since it is recorded as 1080i50 and 1080i60. It's too bad Canon and Panasonic record 25p/30p as interlaced. The neat thing about TRUE 1080P is that after editing as progressive you can export as 1080i or 720p. And, no matter what FX you use you'll never get scaling artifacts!

720/30P vs 720/24P

Is shooting in 720/30P a far greater thing than shooting in 720/24P. Most of the stuff we are going to start filming is going to be podcasts, internet commercials, training videos, things like that. Am I fine with just going at 24P or should I stay with 30P?

Watch my P2 Workflow Tutorial first.
And the other difference is the "film look" you get with 24P. 30P will look more video-ish, but not as much as 30i...up to you. Test both and see what you prefer.
And Jerry is a hoot!
Shane

30p vs 24p

In considering which frame rate to standardize on for this series, I'm pondering the benefits, if benefits there are, to 24p vs. 30p. What I see most often in documentation is that 24p gives "that coveted film look."
Of course, I plan on doing some shooting this weekend to see how much of a difference I can tell from an emperical perspective, but I thought I'd see if there was a general sense around here of the whens and wheres to use 24p over 30p. I'm assuming that Sony included this option because there are reasons to choose it. But then, it may just be that Marketing wanted more bells and whistles. One never knows.
Any thoughts on the benefits of 24p?

chris,
Ah, so the stuttered look is what 24p contributes to the "film look?"
when movies first started being made ( silent ) the frame rate was something like 18fps I think.... when shown on a 24fps "projector" they look like they are speeded up....thats why so many of the old silent "clips" we used to see in the theatre as kids ( filler between the 2 feature films usually shown for our one ticket in those days )...were so fast...like the keystone cops etc...they moved fast and it was sorta funny to see everyone moving so fast....but in the beginning they were projected at 18fps....and moved " normal "....
However, the frame rate of 18fps flickered a lot ....and wasnt that smooth. the "mitchell movement" ( the claw and registration pins and motor etc that makes up the basic movie camera....which drags the film down and puts it in position for exposure ...24 times per second now ) got invented and movie cameras became 24fps.
one of the reasons movies are 24 fps is simply because the invention of the mitchell movement ( the parts that put the film in the gate and so on for exposure ) was fast enough to get rid of a lot of the "flicker" that you saw at 18fps....
That mitchell movement is going REALLY FAST ( at 24fps ).....if you were to look at it working ( like open the side door of a film camera and load film and run it for a few seconds....you would see how screaming fast that thing is moving )...
Now, as time went on the movement got even BETTER ( capable of going faster than 24fps ) ....and you could also make it go slower... which is called overcranking and undercranking the camera.
Because the projectors are 24fps....if you run a film camera at 60fps everything will look like it is going very slow ( slow motion ). If you run the film camera at 18fps and project it....everything will look like it is going FASTER.....
In real world shooting you could undercrank the camera on a stunt to make it look like the action is going faster than it would otherwise look ( help the stunt along a little bit...by undercranking )...
Or you would overcrank to make something look like it is slow motion.
These fps speeds in the camera are adjustable but 99% of the time the film camera will shoot at 24fps. And the projector in the theatre is projecting at 24 fps....
This has nothing to do with "film looks" and "aesthetics" etc... its simply the speed of the projectors being 24fps....and the mitchell movement in the cameras....
now time has marched on further and new stuff is being introduced to the old world of film and video.... but at least you know why film is 24fps ( cause projectors are 24fps )

DVCPRO HD - 24p from HDX900 not smooth

I am preparing to do an HD project on my FCP system. This weekend I ran some tests by downconverting a DVCPRO HD test tape w/ 24p and 30p footage with pans and other stuff to Beta-SP AND separately capturing thru FW400. The DC went thru an AJA SDI to component converter. Sweet little box. The Beta downconvert and resulting edits worked with no problem. The FW capture and edit (from a 1200a deck) led to mixed results.
If the edit timebase was 23.98, everything looked okay, but since my final output is SD via compressor, the SD file compressed from that timeline (to uncompressed 8-bit) showed problems in intrepreting the pans - the single problem I'm getting is an extra, duplicate frame of video every five frames.
This can be counted by pressing the forward motion cursor several times. Every 4th and 5th frame are the same. When you play it's a juddery effect. The Beta doesn't show this. The original 23.98 timebase timeline doesn't show this. Other manifestations of timelines (29.97) do. I believe this is 'normal' 24p footage. I captured with an easy setup of 720p24 and 720p30 to see if one got rid of the problem, but it didn't.
My ultimate goal is to downconvert to Beta first, so it won't affect me. But what if I wanted to go direct, as many recommend I do? I'd be in a bad way. So, what might I be missing? Much appreciated.
Chris

Just to clarify, (forget about the Bea downconvert part of my story) the way I'm going in this case is cutting the HD on a 23.98 timeline. So far, thankfully, that works. What's not working is the down-format. Ultimately, that will be in the form of a Betacam SP or DVCAM dub and certainly an SD DVD.
When I create the uncompressed 8-bit file in compressor, and reset the EZ setup in FCP to the BMD Decklink extreme codec, the remported file shows the camera pans displaying the extra fifth frame. I'm just trying to find a way to smooth out this part of the process. The experts on the group say creating SD through compressor at the end of the line is the thing to do. So I'm not so certain any of this points to my going the wrong way. But I'll be the first to admit I'm at my infancy in experience with HD and 24p. It get's a bit confusing.

24p users? or anyone with 24p knowledge

I am considering switching my Nikon D40x for the new Nikon D3100 that autofocus video, BUT it shoots 1080 24p not 1080 30p! I know people were waiting for the 24p, but now I am confused. If you shoot 24p, can you in imovie:
1. Combine footage or must you stay with 24p.
2. export to other formats such as 720
3. 24p vs 30p....how does it handle? Is it harder to work with?
The Canon does 1080 30p, but its manual focus. I am not a professional here...I mostly take family stuff. The cost to move to the d3100 isn't bad since I already have lenses.
tx

Sheryl, OK Here are my tests.
First, here is some [24fps 320x240 from Kodak Z760 rendered in a 24fps iMovie 11 project.|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcJrvH7SFr4] iMovie rendered this at the Mobile preset.
Second, here is [30fps 1080i AVCHD and 18 fps 1080P Motion JPEG from 8MM film on the same timeline, rendered at 1080P at 30 fps.|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfKGtRhwjmQ]
Finally, here is a kitchen sink timeline. [30fps 1080i AVCHD, 18fps 1080P Motion JPEG (from 8MM film), 30 fps 640x480 AIC from VHS, 30 fps 640x480 DV, 30 fps 720P from a Kodak Z812IS, 24 fps 320x240 from Kodak Z760.|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF0QJv3RHJM] Rendered in 1080P at 30fps.
There is another level of testing that I do not have the equipment to do:
1) 24fps in HD
2) Is there a difference between true 24fps, and 24fps that is achieved through 3:2 pulldown?

30p for DVD?

I have acquired some source DV tapes at 30p. But, as I remember the DVD spec for NTSC, the players recognize 24p but not 30p. Can someone please confirm this?
What I think this means for my project is that DVDSP will not accept a 30p input. So the best approach would be for me to convert my 30p to 60i in compressor. Is this correct?
Now I know that the BluRay case is different and that spec does accept both 24p and 30p for 480p mode. So my question only concerns DVD and standard definition.
Thanks,
John

I'd export the 1080 timeline using current settings and let Compressor work with that. I just did it with a 720p file and it worked fine.
rh

24p in 30p timeline

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