Choosing profiles for forced RGB to CMYK color conversion

When a mixed RGB/CMYK PDF is opened in Illustrator CS6, Illustrator forces a conversion to one color space or the other. See this screenshot: http://imgur.com/sK8iEdn
I assume this is a limitation of Illustrator and there's no way to keep both color spaces. Under that assumption, Is it possible to choose the profiles used for the conversion from RGB to CMYK? Can Illustrator be made to use the RGB and CMYK profiles defined in its Color Settings to make this conversion?

I did some experiments with Illustrator CS6 and the MacBeth RGB test chart and verified my results with Photoshop CS6. I discovered Illustrator is (mostly) doing what it should be doing, within a 1% error (probably rounding) on the output CMYK values. Here's a summary, in case anyone else needs this info:
Assuming the source file's elements are all untagged, when a mixed RGB/CMYK PDF is opened in Illustrator and CMYK mode is
chosen, Illustrator will use the profiles and rendering intent defined in
Color Settings to make the color conversions from RGB to CMYK. Thus, we
have control over the profiles used for this conversion.
If the RGB elements in the PDF file have embedded ICC profiles,
Illustrator will use the embedded ICC profile instead of the RGB profile
defined in Color Settings. This ONLY happens, however, if the PDF file
also includes the correct CMYK output intent profile.
If the PDF doesn't contain a CMYK output intent, Illustrator will fall
back on the Color Settings RGB profile for RGB->CMYK conversion. I believe it
would be more correct for Illustrator to use the embedded RGB profile and
the CMYK profile defined in Color Settings, but that's not how it seems to work.
If the PDF contains the incorrect CMYK output intent, Illustrator will
ignore the Color Settings and respect the embedded RGB and CMYK profiles
for the conversion, as might be expected.

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    Hi,
    I am having similar problems. I have read somewhere that png format can not handle CMYK colorspace anyway, which I find odd (and plainly stupid IM(NS)HO) which would mean that converting to RGB and therefore using profiles is mandatory.
    May be you should check if the internal format of the png files claims it is RGB or CMYK (using ImageMagick's "identify" command for example).
    HTH
    JG

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    Thanks for the detailed reply. Sure clear some of the doubts.
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    I'm looking for a simple, specific and official answer as to which specific ColorSync profile should I choose for 'Onscreen Proofing' in Aperture? ... Alternatively. It should be documented in the manual or the "How to create great looking books?" articles something like: "If you are going to order a book from Apple, then choose the sRGB profile for onscreen proofing. Apple's services are calibrated to this profile and guarantee consistent results".
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    The sRGB colour space is the colour space of an HDTV cathode ray tube. This colour space cannot hold colours a lot of output devices can render, including the pure cyan of an ISO 12647 offset printing condition on art paper, and for inkjet sRGB is even worse as source.
    Open the Apple ColorSync Utility, select sRGB in the RGB profiles list, click the Disclosure (triangle) icon in the CIELa*b plot, and select Hold for Comparison. Then pick an inkjet profile in the RGB profiles list or a large gamut offset profile in the CMYK profiles list, and turn the 3D graphic to see what can be matched directly and what can be matched only by reshaping the colours.
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    indewarry wrote:
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  • The basics on how to handle profiles correctly when working with LAB colors?

    Hello,
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    Would one of you be willing to walk me through the Working Space, Color Management Policies, and Assign/Convert Profile setings that I should use to get the best result?
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    Do the LAB colors look the same on the monitor regardless of which RGB
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    Right. That would be unusual, but the Lab value for 100% cyan in your printer's CMYK space is likely out of gamut to any RGB space. But your destination is CMYK so that's the gamut you care about.

  • Need Info on RGB to CMYK

    Hi,
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    Is there a way to get a closer match to the original RGB color 0, 0, 130?  When the specifications for the print advertisement says images must be in CMYK,  I hope I am accomplishing this by using the Print Document Color Mode of CMYK vs RGB?  I feel somewhat ignorant on utilizing the RGB vs CMYK color modes and if anyone can give me a tip on what techniques they use to get a closer match of colors for RGB to CMYK or vice versa, I would love to hear it.
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    Keith

    Keith,
    First, be aware that you have posted to the Photoshop forum, not the Illustrator forum. The general concepts of color and color management are the same across the spectrum of digital imaging. However, its implementation is slightly different from application to application, so you may also want to post your question to the Illlustrator forum.
    [EDIT: Brain fart on my part... This is the color management forum, NOT the Photoshop forum, so you are in the right place! (I spend most of my time in the Photoshop forum; I lost track of where I was...)]
    That said, you're running up against a general concept: color gamut.
    The color you've spec'd in your RGB file (0/0/130 - and we'll assume for now that it's in the sRGB color space) is outside the gamut of every CMYK color space. That means that the RGB color you see can not be reproduced using a mix of the four CMYK process colors (cyan, magenta, yellow, black). When converting to CMYK, the software picks the closest color that is within the gamut of the CMYK space, hence the color shift.
    When you're designing for CMYK, it's best to work in soft-proof mode which allows you to see a pretty close approximation of what your colors will look like in the final color output space - in your case, CMYK.
    In Photoshop, to turn on soft-proof, go to View > Proof Setup> Custom... and choose the CMYK output space that matches the press conditions you are designing for.
    There are books written about this, but hopefully this short answer points you in the right direction.
    Message was edited by: Rick McCleary

  • Conversion formulas from RGB to CMYK

    Hi,
    I've been writing a Colour swatch tool (in excel! hell yeah!) which allows me to pick a bunch of colours, generate complimentary colours from them, blend between 2 colours in a set number of steps and a whole bunch of other cool stuff, and then output this as a photoshop or illustrator swatch file.
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    See? stupid useless formulas. (I am aware of the differences and overlap of the two gamuts)
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    ~silvery~
    For reference I have included and commented the easyrgb formulas:
    First: RGB -> CMY
    C = 1 - ( R / 255 )
    M = 1 - ( G / 255 )
    Y = 1 - ( B / 255 )
    Second: CMY -> CMYK
    var_K = 1
    Initally sets var_K as 1, although this is dependant on variables below
    if ( C < var_K )   var_K = C
    if ( M < var_K )   var_K = M
    if ( Y < var_K )   var_K = Y
    This bit finds the smallest value from the CMY range and sets this value as var_K
    if ( var_K == 1 ) { //Black
        C = 0
        M = 0
        Y = 0
    If var_K (the value that K is calculated from) is 1, then all the CMY values are reset to 0
    else {
        C = ( C - var_K ) / ( 1 - var_K )
        M = ( M - var_K ) / ( 1 - var_K )
        Y = ( Y - var_K ) / ( 1 - var_K )
    If the value of var_K is anything other than 1 then use the smallest value from the CMY range
    K = var_K
    The value of K as filtered out from the conditions above

    Oliver,
    I'm not sure what you mean by the term 'meta' color profiles, but I'll take a stab at what I "think" you are asking.  There are some fairly widely accepted "standards" out there for both RGB and CMYK.
    In the RGB world, for example, sRGB, Adobe RGB (and to some extent, ProPhoto RGB) have a fairly wide following. These are all ICC profiles, which nail down the boundaries of the color gamut and the definitions of any tri-stimulus combination of red, green and blue. Basically, they are matrix profiles that establish the positions of the Red, Green and Blue primaries, and these positions define the outer limits, or color gamut, of the color space. sRGB is a relatively small color space, so some viewable and printable colors get clipped (sRGB is the general internet, email standard and is widely assumed for many non-color managed appplications, printers, etc). sRGB can handle a fairly wide range of colors, but does clip some colors in brightly colored originals. It has the advantage of being the most widely adopted standard, plus the steps between colors are very close together. I use sRGB for average images, most people pictures, etc. Adobe RGB spreads the primaries further apart, so it describes a wider color gamut. Because the primaries are further apart, the steps are slightly larger from one color to the next, but marginally so. I use Adobe RGB for most of my brightly colored images that will get clipped in sRGB. Adobe RGB is also generally a good choice for images that will ultimately go to a printing press or inkjet. ProPhoto RGB pushes the primaries WAY apart, so it describes a HUGE color gamut...in fact, many of the colors that can be defined in ProPhoto fall outside human vision, and certainly monitors and printers.Due to the wide spacing of steps in ProPhoto RGB, images should be worked in in 16 bit, otherwide you may see some banding and posterization if large edits are made.
    In the CMYK world, certain "standards" have been established, mainly for commercial offset printers (both web and sheetfed presses). By creating a standard, they are trying to establish the ink limit, densities, color gamut, dynamic range, gray balance, etc, of a "generic" sheet of commercial printing paper on the average well-maintained press using standard ISO inks, using good process control, mesurements, etc. By it's nature, this process has to encompass a wide cross section of presses, so it may act as a limitation on what some modern presses are capable of, but that's what standards usually do. If a good printer, with a modern press and great process control decides to sidestep the standard, they can probably extend color gamut, dynamic range, etc, but at the cost of no longer being "standardized". If commercial printers are "truly" trying to meet the standard, they will run tests, take measurements, and adjust their entire workflow so it matches the standard, within acceptable tolerances. Lots of shops "claim" to adhere to SWOP or GRACoL standards, but the majority of them don't. Standards for presses make some sense, because blending CMYK inks together (especially if they use ISO standard inks) on paper usually has a reasonably narrow range that works, though the paper makes a huge difference. (the same cannot be said for inkjets, monitors and many other processes, so they generally do not have standards). So for presses, there are standards for matte and coated papers, web presses, sheetfed presses, newsprint, etc. Each of these standards has its own ICC profile (or a family of profiles) that establishes ink limits, color gamuts, etc.
    All ICC profiles have the necessary tags and data to comply with the ICC specification. One of those requirements is a "profile connection space", which is usually L*a*b* or a variant. So, an file on your computer may be tagged as an Adobe RGB file, and if you wish to prepare it for a sheetfed press using glossy stock, you could convert the file to GRACoL2006_Coated1v2.ICC (an industry standard profile for No. 1 coated stock on a sheetfed press). Since both files have the ability to "speak Lab" a translation can be made from one color space to the other. The numbers in the Adobe RGB file will be converted to L*a*b* (the universal translator), and then the L*a*b* numbers will be converted to CMYK, specifically GRACoL2006_Coated1v2.ICC. So, now you have a file in CMYK space with new numbers. It is worth noting that RGB has only three colorants to define colors, but CMYK has four. So, while in RGB there is only one way to define a specific color, in CMYK, there are many possible combinations that can generate many colors. This adds complexity to the equation. The CMY colors are called subtractive primaries, and are opposites of RGB (additive primaries). The "K" (black ink) is added for text, line art, neutrality, extra Dmax, and because the CMY inks are not pure and don't deliver a true black all by themselves. If the inks and paper were perfect, you could theoretically get away with CMY all by themselves, except for registration issues, text, line art, etc. Also, the additional "K" ink can help reduce the total ink limit, save ink, reduce costs, and improve quality.
    Sorry for the book. This is not a simple subject, and we have only touched the surface.
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    to CMYK & how to image process it in Bridge.
    Many thanks.

    If you create an RGB>CMYK action in Photoshop you can easily pick images in Bridge and call up a Batch operation from within Bridge...but it's Photoshop doing the work cause Bridge ain't an image processor (as others have said).

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