Color spaces in AWT and JAI

Hi,
I am trying to build a image editing application that
supports color management. I am using Swing, AWT, and
JAI 1.1.2. Unfortunately, the most recent tutorial I
could find is about JAI 1.0.1, and a bit outdated.
Does anybody know where I can find a newer tutorial?
The problem I'm having is related to color spaces.
I would like the user to select from a variety of
color spaces like Adobe RGB, Bruce RGB, etc., etc.
These spaces are not supported by default, so it
seems, and I couldn't find a way to define them
myself. Of course I want the TIFF/JPEG readers and
writers to be able to recognize these spaces if their
profiles are embedded, and to include these profiles
when writing images.
Any help or references?
Thanks!
Job Honig

Well, I have the same problem, sort of.
You can get the jpeg profile from the EXIF information of the file (http://www.drewnoakes.com/code/exif/) so you at least know what is coming in. This will work for jpeg, not for tiff (I think).
However, I didn't manage to find a way to create a buffered image for the right profile. You can create it as a default, which is sRGB, or as CS_LINEAR_RGB etc, but did not managed to get a straight correlation between the color space of the image and the ICC profile of the input.
Than, I tried to use ColorConvertOp to convert from the input space to the output space, by using
ColorConvertOp convert = new ColorConvertOp (srcCspace, dstCspace, new RenderingHints( RenderingHints.KEY_COLOR_RENDERING , RenderingHints.VALUE_COLOR_RENDER_QUALITY));
But somehow the results when printed do not look correct.
Didn't manage to find any good example on how to take in one space (like ADOBE RGB 1998) and put it in a PDF file so it will print in the exact color space (either directly, or by converting it to XYZ, whatever).
Anyway, if you have any success here, I'll be happy to know...
-Yishai

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The only CS3 programs I am running are Bridge and PS. I like to work in Adobe RGB and maintain all my files in that color space. Consequently, I set that color space in PSCS3 (in
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External editor color space with Aperture and PSE 10?

Hi all,
I'm finally setting up Aperture to export to Photoshop Elements (10). In the Aperture preferences, I'm asking it to export to PSE 10 as 16-bit TIFF files. What color space should I indicate (if any)? It's currently set to "no profile selected." I'm not a professional; just an enthusiast. I print on an Epson RX580 Photo Stylus printer, if that matters.
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Can I suggest you buy Philip Andrews book, Advanced Photoshop Elements 10. he explains colour spaces and much much more very clearly and exactly what can be done with 16 bit files and what you then have to change to 8 bit to accomplish. He's written basic and advanced guides for Elements since day one. Usually available from Amazon for under £20.

Do I need to harmonize color space between LR and other photo editing programs.

I perform the majority of my editing work in Lightroom. However, I also use some 3rd party applications (e.g. Nik, OnOne, etc.) in addition to Photoshop for special editing, etc. I've noticed that the default color space for each of these applications is different. Some default to Adobe RGBb, other sRGB and still others Pro Photo RGB. Should I be using the same color space and bit depth across all of these programs? When I export from LR, should that color space be the same as everything else? I have noticed that when I export some images and take them to a retail store based print service that the colors appear dull and drab. I believe that is because those mass producing print services don't read the color space in the JPEG correctly. Does any of this make sense, or am I way off? Thanks for everyone's input and time.

For your editing workflow, best is to keep the image in the same color space at all time. For final export you should convert to desiered space... for example sRGB for web, adobeRGB for print etc.

Color spaces in Lightroom and Photoshop

I read that Lightroom uses the large ProPhoto color Space and then again, that it's gamma curve ist close to sRGB. So what is my color space when working in Lightroom? ProPhoto, or sRGb, or something else?
And what kind of a color management workflow between Photoshop and Lightroom do you advocate? Using ProphotoRGB or sRGB as color work space in Photoshop? I used to work in AdobeRGB in Photoshop. Has this to be changed to gain maximum color consistency?
Thanks again for any help!
Johann M Ginther

Hey Claude,
if it did not have an attached profile it is almost definitely in sRGB or, more rarely, Apple RGB. Lightroom always assumes sRGB for untagged files which is typically a safe bet. Photoshop generally uses the working space for untagged images. Since you had adobeRGB there, you should get a more saturated image in photoshop then in Lightroom. The same data is simply interpreted in a different color space leading to different colors. This has nothing to do with the monitor profile therefore and my initial hunch was wrong. So for untagged images in photoshop, you should usually assign sRGB to them instead of working space.
>As for calibration hardware we do use them here so I will use it but since the Mac was brand new out the box I assumed that it was ok...
Unfortunately, in general the canned calibration is not very good on Macs. I find very large differences between the shipped profile and a profile generated by a calibrator. Also, Apple ships profiles that set your display's gamma to 1.8 instead of the standard 2.2. This leads to many images in webbrowsers being too low contrast. Even Apple suggests recalibrating your screen at 2.2 if you do digital photography work (it's in their Aperture help files). In this case though the difference between Lightroom and Photoshop had nothing to do with the monitor profile but was related to photoshop interpreting untagged files in its working space instead of the more likely sRGB space.

The availability of color space in RAW, TIFF and JPEG files

This is useful if your new to DSLR photography.
This is Nikon response on my question in the discussion: View photo metadata
I'm assuming that you know that Adobe RGB shows about 50% and sRGB 35% of CIELAB color space.
In a DSLR camera like the Nikon D800 you can select a color space (Adobe RGB or sRGB) in the shooting menu.
In Adobe Lightroom 4.3 the RAW metadata shows no color space info. Therefore I asked why not?
In the (Dutch) Nikon D800 manual on page 84 (about RAW) and 274 (about color space) and Nikon FAQ website there is no descripton about the color space availability/behavior in RAW, JPEG and TIFF files.
In the book "Mastering the Nikon D800 by Darrel Young" on page 125 - 126 is written: "If you shoot in RAW format a lot, you may want to consider using Adobe RGB....."
All experts on this forum answered: color space does not apply/affect the RAW data file or RAW files have no color space.
The respone of Nikon Europe Support (Robert Vermeulen) was: In Nikon D800 NEF RAW files both color spaces (Adobe RGB and sRGB) are always physically available. In JPEG and TIFF files only the in the shooting menu selected color space is physically available. So the forum experts gave the correct answer!
Of course you can convert afterwards a JPEG or TIFF file with sRGB color space to Adobe RGB but you don't get more colors.
When you install the Microsoft Camera Codec Pack or FastPictureViewer Codec Pack they only show color space metadata for JPEG and TIFF files and nothing for RAW because color space "doesn't exist". I thought the codec packs removed the color space metadata for my RAW files.
Adobe Lightroom also can not show color space for RAW files because that "doesn't exist".

Van-Paul wrote:
The respone of Nikon Europe Support (Robert Vermeulen) was: In Nikon D800 NEF RAW files both color spaces (Adobe RGB and sRGB) are physically available. In JPEG and TIFF files only the in the shooting menu selected color space is physically available.
I still think this is an evasive answer that doesn't really pinpoint the exact chain of events that take place. They are:
1. The raw file contains the naked data captured by the sensor. This is just a very dark grayscale image.
2. In the raw converter it is encoded into a working color space to process the information. In Lightroom this is known as "Melissa RGB", or linear gamma Prophoto. It is also demosaiced to bring back the color information.
3. From Lightroom it can be exported to one of the familiar color spaces like sRGB or Adobe RGB. This is, in principle at least, a normal profile conversion.
These three steps are what the camera does to produce a jpeg. So the basic steps are the same, the camera is just doing it automatically (and usually butchering the image in the process...).
This Darrell Young is, I'm sure, an excellent photographer, but in this he is seriously confused and just propagating a common myth. Anyway, thanks for bringing up this discussion, hope you didn't object too much to the tone of the answers... Our only concern here was to get this right and with no room for misunderstanding.

Export Color Space, etc?

I'm a couple of days into a trial of Fireworks and I got it
only for two reasons: First to be able to create navigation bars
with popup menus on some of the menu options and second, to more
easily create photo galleries for my web site. (I'm quite
comfortable with PhotoShop and creating web-optimized images.)
Anyway, I've run into a couple of things that have got me
stumped...
If I use FW CS3 to optimize a JPG image for the web (either
from directly within FW or via the Create Web Photo Album command
from within Dreamweaver CS3) the resulting images no longer have a
color space embedded. And I can't find out how to embed one. The
original JPG images were created in PS CS3 and had the sRBG color
space embedded and the colors displayed as expected in a web
browser. The resulting "optimized" images no
longer have a color space embedded and the colors appear quite off.
This might be acceptable with some vector graphics or logos but
it's not acceptable with photgraphs, especially for a photography
web site.
(It's quite well-known, at least in photography circles that
for proper display of the colors, images designed for the web
should be in sRGB with that space embedded, as that is what web
browsers are optimized for. Anything else, including not embedding
a color space results in colors that are "off".)
A related issue is that when using the Create Web Photo Album
from within DW CS3 the resulting files all have a new suffix of
"_jpg" added to the name. Meaning that my
original "name.jpg" gets named
"name_jpg.jpg". I really don't like that, and
can't find how to turn it off.
(I went to a large bookstore to buy a FW book today but they
didn't have any. And the only one they even listed on their
computer is due to be published at the end of February!)
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Eldor - Montreal

quote:
Originally posted by:
Newsgroup User
EldorG wrote:
> As I said, PEBCAK error. But that still leaves me
with the file name 'problem'
> I mentioned... that my images get named from
'name.jpg' to 'name_jpg.jpg'.
> This happens when I use the 'Create Web Photo Album'
from Dreamweaver CS3
> (which in turn calls FW to do the work). Should I
post that in the DW forum,
> or is it a FW thing? Thanks very much! Eldor
Don't name them in FW. Allow them to be exported with the
names they
already have.
Linda Rathgeber [PVII] *Adobe Community Expert-Fireworks*
http://www.projectseven.com
Fireworks Newsgroup:
news://forums.projectseven.com/fireworks/
CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/
http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/
Linda, I'm
not naming the images in FW. As a matter of fact, I never
even see a FW dialog. If I optimize an image directly from within
FW, there is no problem. But doing so from Dreamweaver (through the
Create Web Photo Album command which seems to call FW to automate
the work) causes the images to be reduntantly renamed. And I don't
see an option anywhere to change this.
As I said, I'm not sure if this is something I should be
asking in the FW forum or the DW forum. But since this option
doesn't even exist in DW until FW is installed and FW is called
from DW to do this, I really don't know where to ask.
How does that FW automation work? Is there a script file or
something somewhere that I might find and modify?
That option in DW not only optimizes a bunch of images, it
creates thumbnails as well, and writes all the stuff into HTML code
to produce a table of the images. So I can't just go to FW and
manually optimize an image.
Regards...
Eldor

Color space when exporting from RAW

Hello,
I am a new user of Lightroom and I find color spaces topic a bit confusing so far. My main question is: when exporting a photo, does Lightroom convert to a profile or assign a profile? Because there is no way to choose. I tried to export a photo with 3 different color spaces (sRGB, AdobeRGB and ICC profile from laboratory where I print my photos). After exporting them to JPEG it turned out that all of them look differently on my monitor - does it mean that Lightroom assigns a profile? If it was converting, shouldn't they have the same colours? What is more, after printing them in laboratory, results were completely different than I expected - the photo which had closest colours to what I saw in Lightroom was that in sRGB, but that with ICC of Lab was very different (much colder colours).
Where is the problem, or what aspect do I seem to misunderstand? Do I have wrong settings, should I use DNG to work with photos, should I export to TIFF, or I just have too weak monitor or wrongly calibrated one? Should I calibrate when viewing a picture in Lightroom or with the use of a photo exported to the ICC profile of Lab?
I would like to have a little bit of control over what I'm working on, depending on whether I want to publish it on a website or print. I know that my monitor can be a problem (I have an iiyama with IPS), but surely there has to be any way to make results of my work a bit closer to my expectations.
Just for information, my workflow doesn't require Photoshop, as I rather prefer to use only tools from Lightroom. I hope that my problem doesn't require the use of Photoshop.
I will be really greateful for your help - the general knowledge about colour spaces seems to be unsufficient when it comes to the usage of applications such as Lightroom.
Many thanks,
Marcin

Marcin S wrote:
Thank you for you helpful replies. Now I know a little bit more about it. But still, this is not completely clear to me.
My main question is: when exporting a photo, does Lightroom convert to a profile or assign a profile?
Both.
What you mean by both? How should I interpret it? I cannot choose "convert" or "assign", so how they both work together? What does it mean for me wanting to process photo and print in Lab?
I can only add, that those 3 photos which I exported to JPEG with 3 different colour spaces, they look different when viewing outside of Lightroom, ie. IrfanView. But when importing those JPEGs into Lightroom, differences are extremly slight. Is that because Lightroom operates in ProPhoto, which covers all colour spaces which I used, and other programs work in sRGB and those photos differently?
And the last question for now: will the hardware calibrator help in monitor which is, let's say, medium cost and medium quality? I mainly use it for preparing photos to put them on the website gallery, but would be nice if I could print better ones with a bit of certainty about what I will get from Lab.
Many thanks!!
Marcin
When you export a photo from LR, it converts to the colour space you select (e.g. sRGB) and embeds the appropriate profile in the exported file.
If your monitor were calibrated and profiled, and you view with a colour-managed viewer then images should look pretty much identical no matter which colour space you export in. (W7 Photo viewer is colour managed, the XP equivalent isn't, Mac s/w generally is. IE and Chrome aren't properly colour managed, Firefox is for all images, Safari is for images with embedded profiles. Other viewers vary.) With colour-managed viewers, the only difference should be with very highly saturated colours outside sRGB colour space (and then only if your monitor can display those colours).
LR is colour managed. If the monitor isn't calibrated/profiled then I think LR assumes the monitor has a colour space equivalent to sRGB (which is generally roughly right but won't be accurate). Internally LR uses ProPhoto RGB colour space in develop module, but uses Adobe RGB in Library, and previews are stored in Adobe RGB. However, the colour space LR uses won't explain why other viewers show things differently. It's simply that LR is colour managed (which means it converts to/from the image colour space), and I guess the other viewers you're using aren't; they just throw RGB data at the screen without converting.
Is it worth calibrating and profiling your monitor? Quite possibly. Does the colour and brightness vary with viewing angle as you move your head from side to side? If so, it may be TN technology, and perhaps not worth profiling. If it looks reasonably stable with different viewing angle then probably yes.

What color space are the Color Lookup presets meant for?

I've noticed that if I convert the same image to multiple color spaces and apply a 3D LUT with the new Color Lookup adjustment, the result is noticeably different. From experimenting, it seems that the lookup tables operate on whatever RGB value is given to them no matter what color space. Is there a certain color space these were optimized for? For instance, would a certain color space give me a more authentic 2-strip look than another because of the space they were sampled in? And if I create my own 3D LUTs, would I have to create a separate one for each color space in order to get a consistent look in all spaces?

So do you know what color space was used to create the presets that are there, such as 2-strip and 3-strip? Even though they don't know about color spaces, the different gammas on the input cause the look to come out different in all colorspaces, so it stands to reason that whatever color space the calculations and/or sampling was done in is closest to what was intended while the others are rough approximations. For things like "warming" it doesn't matter, but for ones that simulate actual films I'm curious to know, especially since the 2-strip ones looks a little different than when you just copy the green channel into the blue and green channels as described on all the websites.

What color space as base in a brand guide?

What color space forms the base of a color brand guide? How do you start in terms of color spesifications? When I look at most guides it seems that Pantone is always the base, then CMYK, then RGB and Hex? Is RGB and Hex always gonna be a dithered version of the CMYK values or is it best practise to hand pick each one to make them look as close to the CMYK as possible? Is Pantone always mentioned first in the list because that's where the designer started?
Also, is best practise to mimmick the CMYK and Pantone colors so that the RGB and hex values look like them? Seems to me that most brand guides / visual manuals are made firstly for print, then they add the screen based color spaces.
In the enclosed example I also observe that the complete values are not always listed, in many cases the Y and K is missing in the CMYK values, does that mean it doesn't contain any black, or is it simply meaning zero? It rarerly occurs with the other color spaces.

For web, email and screen in general it should always be sRGB. Then you can be fairly certain that it will display correctly (more or less) in any scenario. sRGB wil also work for print (inkjet), it's just that many colors that can be printed are out of sRGB gamut, so it's a restriction that doesn't need to be there. sRGB is a small color space that can't reproduce very saturated colors - they're just clipped. So it's better to start with a larger space like Adobe RGB or even ProPhoto.
For editing purposes you want a large color space simply to have headroom and not hit the wall at every move. The final destination may well be a smaller space, like a printer profile. The software then converts to that destination profile as it goes to the printer. You can soft proof to the printer profile to get an impression of how the final result will look.
You can print directly from InDesign, but the typical InDesign workflow is to export a finished PDF. That is where you specify a final destination profile for the whole document, whether a certain CMYK profile for offset press, or an RGB profile for screen. So you have your master InDesign file, and output PDFs for each destination. The InDesign file can contain placed RGB images in any color space, while text and graphic elements are CMYK. Then everything is converted in one go at export.
You should always go through the PDF Export dialog carefully. Use the presets, but don't automatically accept defaults. For specific purposes, ask here or in the InDesign forum, where they deal with this all the time.
For screen, under "Output" use convert to destination, sRGB, include profile. Under "Compression", things aren't as obvious as they used to be (downsample to 96 or 100 ppi), because of the new retina displays that can benefit from a higher resolution. I hold my judgement on this one.

Using 'color space suite'/ColorServicesProc

Hi,
I wrote a custom color picker plugin for Photoshop CS3. Now I have to extend it's functionality.
To do this I need to convert the input color (whatever color space) to RGB.
I'v tried the 'HostCSConvertColor' from the PIUtilities but it gave me wrong result RGB.
I selected sRGB IEC61966-2.1 for my monitor.
I selected Lab = (54,0,0) color for foreground color which is RGB(129,129, 129).
The HostCSConvertColor converts it into RGB = (0, 55, 222)
Is there a sample or some documentation using the color space suite properly and/or ColorServicesProc ?
Thanks,
TZolee

When the picker invoked by PS it gets the initial color from PS in Lab space (PIPickerParams->pickParms).
I just use that colorComponents without any modifications to call the HostCSConvertColor (just copied to a temporary place).
Yes I know that the Lab color values signed. I took a deep research before I wrote this plugin.
I've already read the documentation.
I've already tested ~20 Lab color and the HostCSConvertColor was always wrong.

Color space/profile name

I have some pictures that don't show a thumbnail in iPhoto. The info dialog for them says the Color Space is "Gray" and the Profile name is "Gr?skala - gamma 2,2". If I double-click on of these the enlarged image seems somewhat faded. The picture looks fine if I just view it directly in Preview, or ColorSync Utility. It seems most pictures have a Color Space of RGB, how to I change the Color Space of these files to RGB?

Justin:
Download the Automator application "Embed sRGB Profile" from Toad's Cellar and unzip it. Then locate the original files for those problem images and drop them on it. Next launch iPhoto with the Command+Option keys depressed and follow the instructions to rebuild the library and select the first three options. This should get those images compatible with iPhoto.
Do you Twango?
TIP: For insurance against the iPhoto database corruption that many users have experienced I recommend making a backup copy of the Library6.iPhoto database file and keep it current. If problems crop up where iPhoto suddenly can't see any photos or thinks there are no photos in the library, replacing the working Library6.iPhoto file with the backup will often get the library back. By keeping it current I mean backup after each import and/or any serious editing or work on books, slideshows, calendars, cards, etc. That insures that if a problem pops up and you do need to replace the database file, you'll retain all those efforts. It doesn't take long to make the backup and it's good insurance.
I've written an Automator workflow application (requires Tiger), iPhoto dB File Backup, that will copy the selected Library6.iPhoto file from your iPhoto Library folder to the Pictures folder, replacing any previous version of it. You can download it at Toad's Cellar. Be sure to read the Read Me pdf file.

Color Space Question For Printing

I have multiple newbie questions so please bear with me
Normally when working in photoshop, I tend to use the RGB color space as I need the use of filters and other effects not available in CMYK, Now when printing flyers E.g A4 Sized I tend to save the PSD in RGB (Without Flattening) and then importing it into a CMYK color space in illustrator and then exporting as a PDF, as illustrator gives me the option to create bleed as well as trim marks, I have never exported a PDF from photoshop as it always gives me the option of photoshop pdf which is kinda heavy.
My question is, is the process I use okay for printing? or do I first need to convert it into CMYK? or just export from photoshop itself? Also, the other reason I use illustrator is if i'm making a business card with two sides, since text is better exported from illustrator.
Could anyone tell me a simpler process for creating for digital print? Especially if I need to do some items in illustrator as well.

>> images are still a bit washed out with a warmish/ yellow cast to them, particularly, my black and white images
Here is a simple test to help evaluate if the monitor profile is reasonably good:
Open a RGB file in Photoshop (flatten if not already flattened).
Press M key> Drag a selection> Com+Shift+U (Desaturate).
Com+Z (to toggle back and forth).
If the unsaturated selection looks neutral you've got a reasonably fair monitor profile.
If selection has color casts (not neutral) -- you have a bad monitor profile
+++++
Here is a simple test to help evaluate if a bad monitor profile is whacking out your Photoshop color:
Monitors/Displays (control panel)> Color> highlight AppleRGB or sRGB (don't run Calibrate), quit and reboot.
If the Photoshop colors are back under control, then the problem was most surely a bad monitor profile go back into Monitors/Displays> Color and Calibrate a good profile highlight (load) sRGB, or preferably, the monitor's OEM profile as a starting point.
If you are using a puck, it is likely defective; or your monitor hardware is the culprit...search it on Google by model number

Color spaces in AWT and JAI

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