Feedback Node Initializer Being Ignored ?
Hi
I have a feedback node sat in a For Loop, the number of iterations is determined by an input array. The same input array is wired to the initializer terminal of the Feedback node. The Feedback node delay is set to 3 and yet the output of the node only contains the first value of the array for the first 3 iterations. It's easier to show than describe.
So I would expect the output Array to contain the values 3,1,0,0,1,2 yet it actually contains 3,3,3,0,1,2
If I wire the scalar value 99 to the initializer then I get the expected 99,99,99,0,1,2
What am I missing ?
This is LabVIEW 2011 for MAC OS X
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Solved!
Go to Solution.
Attachments:
Feedback Node.vi 8 KB
To expand on Swatts answer a bit more. You are actually only initializing the feedback node with a single element because you have the array auto-indexing at the loop tunnel.
If you fed the entire array into the For Loop and the initializer terminal, it would have worked the way you expected.
Attachments:
Feedback%20Node[1].png 6 KB
Similar Messages
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Feedback nodes / delays and Resource Usage on FPGA
Again it's time for an exotic FPGA semi-noob question from myself.
This has been bugging me for a long time:
When implementing a delay stage on a Virtex-5 target, we have a few options available.
Feedback nodes : Uses LUTs. Virtex 5 has 6-input LUTs. Does this mean that a Feedback node with delay 1 requires the same resources as a Feedback node with delay 6 and a Feedback node with delay 7 requires double the LUTs as one with delay 6?
Example: A single unit delay feedback node for a U16 requires 16 LUTs. What is the LUT usage for 6, 7, 9 delay?
BRAM : Uses few LUTs and Registers. I reckon I understand this one.
Discrete Delay : Can't be used as feedback but is more efficient than feedback nodes? It is written in the help that feedback nodes with the reset support disabled CAN be implemented as SRLs allowing the compiler to choose th ebest option whereas the Discrete Delay primitive forces an SRL Is the SRL implemented using LUTs?.
Which of these options is recommended for which purpose. We're really filling our chip and need to start considering such aspects of number storage.
Sorry for the over-reaching vague questions again.
On the other hand, being on a steep learning curve is actually almost thrilling. Every bit of information helps me learn so thanks for that in advance.
Shane
Say hello to my little friend.
RFC 2323 FHE-CompliantJLewis wrote:
The number of inputs is only indirectly related to the supported delay. The V-5 and above CLBs (Configurable Logic Blocks) can be configured as dedicated shift registers with delays up to 32 in a single LUT per bit. The main restriction is that these shift registers are not resettable, so you only get this implementation when configured without an initialization value. Delays above 32 can be efficiently implemented in multiple LUTs (ie, 1 LUT per 32 delay). These shift registers are known as SRL16 or SRL32, depending on the target family.
So does this mean that on a LUT-basis, a shift register (with the reset conditions met) with a delay between 1 and 32 costs the same amount of resources? 33-64 delay costs twise that of a single delay? Is this correct? I think I need some benchmarking code.....
JLewis wrote:
Discrete Delay maps to the same shift register implementation as feedback nodes if the reset condition is met. Otherwise, the main difference is that the Discrete Delay exposes the dynamic delay feature available in the hardware shift registers and, as you noted, can't be used in a feedback cycle. If neither of those considerations is a factor in your design, it's just a matter of preference.
This document from Xilinx contains the keys to the kingdom, as far as what hardware capabilities are available: http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/user_guides/ug474_7Series_CLB.pdf
That's kind of what I thought.
JLewis wrote:
Hi Shane,
Great questions!
Well thank you, Thanks for the answers.
Say hello to my little friend.
RFC 2323 FHE-Compliant -
Hi everyone,
I am trying to simulate the second-order generalized-integral SOGI in LabVIEW and compare step by step with Simulink. The results are the same until I make two feedback loops by using feedback nodes. The graphs in LabVIEW show nothing. Can you give me some recommends for these iteration loop?
I attach SOGI and my simulation model for detail.
I really appreciate your nice help!
Best,
Tuan
Attachments:
SOGI_fig.png 96 KB
Implementation.png 11 KBYou need to initialize your feednode nodes to an array of the appropriate size to match your waveform length.
In LabVIEW, what happens if you have {1,2,3} - {0,2}? The output array will be of length of the smallest of the arrays being subtracted. So you will get {1,0}. So what happens when you subtract an empty array? You will have an empty array as your output.
Here's a quick edit of your code.
There are only two ways to tell somebody thanks: Kudos and Marked Solutions
Unofficial Forum Rules and Guidelines
Attachments:
TestPhase.vi 30 KB -
SubVi with feedback nodes used more than once inside a While Loop
All,
I have a subvi that does a set of operations and uses 3 feedback nodes. I am using this subvi inside a While Loop a total of 4 times. I've noticed that all instances used share the same result at each corresponding feedback node but I would like to have an individual result from each of them. Is there an easy way to go around this problem? I have come up with ways to avoid this: a) create a different vi for each time the subvi was used. b) use global variables instead of feedback nodes. Is there any easier way to go around this issue?
ExamplePlease note that both subvi's are the same) If on my first subvi I calculate a maximum value and get 1.29 (then goes to feedback node) on my second subvi i get 1.01 my feedback node at the second subvi still registers the maximum value to be 1.29. (and I want it to be 1.01!)
Hope this is not too confusing, I've been scratching my head with this for a while, can't find the "easy" button. Thanks in advance.
-Pop
Im using 9.0.
Solved!
Go to Solution.Attaching the code would be helpful. Anyway, I am not sure how multiple feedback nodes are supposed to operate so I will defer that to others to answer. As far as being able to use distinct values or instances if you are using a subVI you could mark it as reentrant. That way each call to it will behave as it it were a copy of the VI and it will have its own memory space. This should include the feedback node. You may be ending up with a single subVI and in reality a single feedback node. If you need to pass data between calls than simply wire the data through. You could also use an Action Engine to store and retrieve values. An AE is a MUCH better solution than a global variable.
Mark Yedinak
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald - Gordon Lightfoot -
I have came across a nasty bug that caused Labview 2010 SP1 (Runnnig Win 7 Ultimate x64 bit) to crash without any warning.
To replicate the bug do the following:
Add a numeric control and another indicator to the front panel
Switch to block diagram and add a feed back node
Connect the initializer terminal of the feed back node to the output of the control
Now do ANY of the following to cause the bug:
Press the run buttong (which is broken due to not connecting the input of the feed back node) it will turn to a normal run without displaying the error
Do an extra action and undo it, the run button will turn from list error normal
So far the Vi can be saved normally. Now connect the output of the feed back node to the indicator and try any of the followings:
Save the VI
Close the VI
Create a new project and select to add the VI to the project
This will cause Labview to crash without any notice!
When you are at step 4, the bug is there but harmless. Once you combine it with step 5 (connect to indicator), the bug is active and cause crashing. I have attached a snapshot of how the Front panel/block diagram look like before saving (since it can't be saved). Notice how the run button is enabled although the input of the feedback node is not connected.
I have tried to replicate the error on Labview 2009 but couldn't.
Attachments:
FBN Bug.jpg 56 KBDear ªL¡
Thank you for briging our attention to this issue.
I replicated it on LabVIEW 2010 SP1 and confirmed, that in LabVIEW 2011 it has been fixed.
Thanks again!
Best regards,
Mateusz Stokłosa
Applications Engineer
National Instruments -
Is the task-flow input parameter class value being ignored by the framework
hi
Although I don't remember where, I think I read or heard about the task-flow input parameter class value that it is "being ignored by the framework".
One example of this could be what is currently in the UI Shell sample application available
at http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/adf/uishellapp-134633.zip
It has in its task-flow in "flows\second.xml" an input parameter configured like
<task-flow-definition id="second">
<!-- ... -->
<input-parameter-definition id="__3">
<name id="__2">tabContext</name>
<value>#{pageFlowScope.tabContext}</value>
<class>oracle.ui.pattern.dynamicShell.TabContex</class>
<required/>
</input-parameter-definition>
<!-- ... -->
</task-flow-definition>Notice the missing "t" at the end of the class name "oracle.ui.pattern.dynamicShell.TabContex".
Still this task-flow configuration does allow to use expressions like "#{pageFlowScope.tabContext.selectedTabIndex}", which suggests that the class value is indeed "being ignored by the framework".
(see also forum thread "does the UI Shell sample break encapsulation in its task-flows"
at does the UI Shell sample break encapsulation in its task-flows )
All relevant references (bug numbers, documentation, blogs) explaining about this task-flow input parameter class value are welcome.
If no such references exist, maybe someone from Oracle can give some feedback.
many thanks
Jan Verveckenfyi
The feedback below was posted in the forum message
at Re: does the UI Shell sample break encapsulation in its task-flows
Richard Wright wrote:
That appears to be a bug for which I am seeking confirmation.There is an enhancement request (i.e., 9377487) submitted over a year ago, that describes this behavior. It is listed as an ER as our documentation (e.g., Fusion Developer's Guide for Oracle ADF, online help ) does not specifically state that Java class for the input parameter definition is checked for type. Further anything using EL is untyped. So the expectation that types are enforced is somewhat puzzling to the development team.
However, there is an acknowledgment within circles of the development organization, that some might come to have this expectation. One trigger might be the definition itself. The other is the existence of a design time audit on the definition. For example, if the class is specified inaccurately (e.g., typo), there is an audit warning to report "not found."
Under consideration are a number of framework proposals to check for type without breaking backward compatibility or adding overhead to the production environment.
In the interim, the following recommendations are given.
Unless this breaks or can break your app in some way, no need exist for change. Nevertheless, if this is a real concern, write a test or consider a java assertion. By default, assertions are disabled at runtime. There is no need to override that default.I have been able to find enhancement request 9377487, "TASK FLOW PARAMETER VALUES NOT VALIDATED ACCORDING TO CLASS", on My Oracle Support. It currently has "Status 15 - To Internal (Oracle) Review" and "Updated 16-Dec-2010".
In the context of service request 3-4185839067 recently bug 12838099, "THE TASK-FLOW INPUT PARAMETER CLASS VALUE BEING IGNORED BY THE FRAMEWORK", has been filed and it currently still has "Status 16 - Bug Screening/Triage".
- about "... the expectation that types are enforced is somewhat puzzling to the development team ..."
Hmm, strange ... so what are people supposed to expect when there is an option to configure a class name for a task-flow input parameter?
regards
Jan -
FB Node: Initialize on First Call
Hi all,
Not sure why, but my Initialize on First Call option on some of my feedback nodes is disabled. Can you tell me why? Thanks!
Yik
Kudos and Accepted as Solution are welcome!
Solved!
Go to Solution.The feedback node can only be globally initiallized unless you wire a value to the initialize terminal. When you wire the initial value the other options are enabled.
The help for this is a bit lacking but if you select the Feedback nodes properties page it is explained there
Message Edited by Jeff Bohrer on 03-16-2010 03:36 PM
Jeff -
I never expected a difference between Array1 and Array2 in the attached vi.
In the feed back version, if the incoming array is all false, Feedback indicator is not initialized to empty, and Array2 contains stale data.
Attachments:
FeedBackNode.vi 23 KBbeavercreek wrote:
Dang it, sorry about the attached. I was trying to be nice by back versioning the source code, but I went beyond the feedback node feature.
I don't really have a question, I just expected the initializer to intialize Feedback (and Array2) to empty, regardless of if the true case ever executed.
My bad, and a heads up to others.
I don't know why you'd expect an initializer to initialize something back to empty after code has executed. The initializer only operates on the feedback terminal when it executes. Once you get into your For Loop, the initializer terminal never comes into play again.
One problem with your code is that your terminal is at the output of the feedback node rather than the output of the build array. So the data going into the feedback array indicator is always from the last iteration where the boolean was true, not the current iteration.
If you want to get the data in the array indicator after the for loop is done, then I would use the variation with the shift register, and not use the feedback node. Or if you use the feedback node, use the initializer terminal on it, then it isn't necessary to have the case structure and you can wire the data directly out to an indicator outside the for loop.
Attachments:
FeedBackNode[1]_BD.png 32 KB -
I came across an odd situation when using a Feedback Node where a established a delay of more than 1 iteration. (LV2011)
I have a waveform datatype. I wanted to delay the waveform by an iteration of the loop before displaying in a graph, so I added a feedback node.
Then I realized I wanted to delay it by a few more iterations, so I went into the properties and set the delay to be greater than 1.
Because I had stale data in the feedback node after 1 run, I wanted to intialize the feedback node, so I right clicked on the initializer terminal and picked create constant. An array of waveforms was created, and this broke the output of my feedback node since it was wired to a scalar waveform type.
If I do not have a delay longer than 1, (more normal feedback node), then a scalar waveform is created and no problems.
Interestingly, I tried the same thing with the more basic numeric datatype, an array was created in one case, a scalar in the other, but the array did not break the output of the feeback node. I'm not exactly sure what an array into the intializer would mean for a long delay feedback node. It might make sense that it allows you to create an array of different initial values for each step, and this link on the web help mentions that http://zone.ni.com/reference/en-XX/help/371361H-01/glang/feedback_node/. But the help embedded in LabVIEW doesn't mention that. (See attached image.)
See attached snippet.
Attachments:
Example_VI_BD.png 33 KB
Feedback Node Help.PNG 145 KBRavens Fan wrote:
The only other question I have is whether it is appropriate for an array of elements to be generated at the intializer rather than just an element. A 1 item delay feedback node generates an element, a 2 or more delay generates an array as default. What is the difference in the feedback node that treats the creation of that constant differently if Z=1 vs. Z = 2 or more. It is just a feedback node with a different delay. While an array would make sense as a data for the initializer for multi-delay feedback nodes, it is just as valid to have a single element as the input if you want the same output to repeat.
I say yes, it is appropriate to generate an array for a node with a delay > 1, especially given the connection to the unilateral Z transform. However, you are under no obligation to provide an initial value for all values, you can put a single value into the array and it is equivalent to the scalar input. You can even put two values in and the second will be repeated until the delay is reached. With the SR you have to initialize all or none.
Not everyone has my handy-dandy QD shortcut to convert scalars to arrays (why not?), but I still think it is easier to either live with single element arrays or rip the constant out of the array and rewire than it would be to create a scalar and then reach for the array container or build array.
My 2c, I rarely increase the delay personally, but I do not do FPGA either. -
For some reason my libs folder is being ignored, all the swc's have a ? mark over them.
hi nikos,
can you give us some more information...is your libs folder just a local folder in your project (i.e. default one that gets created)? Are you using any sort of linked resources or sym links? Have you tried just refreshing that node in the Package Explorer? Does the compiler find your swcs and compile them and is it just a Package Explorer issue?
thanks,
-george -
Flushing values in the feedback node
I am using a feedback node to build an array.
When I stop the VI and run it once again, the values in the feedback node from previous iteration are introduced in the array.
How do stop this from happening ? Is there command /VI which could be used to remove the values in the feedback node?Right-click on the diamond looking box on the left side of your for loop, and select Create --> Constant. This will create an empty array constant. If the code you posted sits inside another loop (e.g. a while loop), then right-click on the initializer terminal again and select Move Initializer One Loop Out to get to your outermost loop. This will initialize the feedback node only when you start the program.
To reinitialize all values to default, you can do something like this:
Edit: Re-posted code as VI
Message Edited by Sima on 11-20-2008 09:54 AM
Attachments:
reinit.vi 16 KB -
Feedback node bug when upgrading to LabVIEW8.6.0?
I'm using LabVIEW to develop a DSP (Digital Signal Processing) application, when upgrading my code from LabVIEW8.2.1 to LabVIEW8.6.0, some functions working properly in LabVIEW8.2.1 now give incorrect result after being upgraded to LabVIEW8.6.0. After debugging, I found that the feedback node in LabVIEW8.6.0 introduces abnormal Data Type Conversion, I solved it by replace the feedback node with a shift register, is this a bug?
Here I attach screen shots of one of my VIs, in this VI I'm using feedback node to implement point-by-point digital filtering on input complex data, attached file"Code_LV82.PNG" shows its diagram in LabVIEW8.2.1, if I open the same VI in LabVIEW8.6.0, the initial terminal of feedback node is now visible and there are 2 extra auto Data Type Conversion (shown as red dots) at output branches of feedback node (in attached file "Code_LV86_Marked.PNG", refer to where the 2 blue arrows point to), and this VI functions improperly. In LabVIEW8.6.0 if I replace the feedback node with a shift register or give a constant "0+0i" to the initial terminal of feedback node, the 2 extra auto Data Type Conversion are gone and everything is ok.
Here I also attach my VI (as attached "wt_2nd Order Low Pass Filter.vi " ), you can try if my problem could be replicated.
Any suggestion is welcome, thanks in advance.
Attachments:
Code_LV82.PNG 27 KB
Code_LV86_Marked.PNG 20 KB
wt_2nd Order Low Pass Filter.vi 10 KBHi,
you can do the necassary changes in business and develop the BBP from Functional point of view and capture the same in change request for transport.
For further information go to this link.
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/scn/wiki?path=/display/erp6/
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/scn/wiki?path=/display/erp6/transactionsChangedinECC6.0
BT
Satish -
Reset a feedback node within a loop
Hi everyone,
I am new user of LabVIEW and sometimes even the most simple task seems to be very difficult for me.
What I am trying to do is this:
1. Reading a signal (I am using the random generator in the example below).
2. Display the signal on the screen (the Waveform Charts)
3. When I press a button, a predefined number of signals should be saved to file.
I have managed to both display the signal and save it to file, but I am unable to find a way to stop the file saving when enough signals have been saved. I am now trying to count the signals saved using a Feedback Node. This works fine the first time the button is pressed, but the next time the button is pressed, the Feedback Node continues from the last time, ie. it is only reset when the outer While-loop is run the first time.
So my questions are:
1. Is it possible to reset the Feedback Node when the Boolean variable as shown in the example changes from True to False?
2. Is there a better way to save the data (and being able to display it to screen (and later using the data in the VI)).
Best regards,
Martin T.
Solved!
Go to Solution.Yes you can using a simple 'Select' function:
Ton
Message Edited by TCPlomp on 29-10-2009 10:09 AM
Free Code Capture Tool! Version 2.1.3 with comments, web-upload, back-save and snippets!
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My LabVIEW Ideas
LabVIEW, programming like it should be!
Attachments:
Example_VI_BD.png 10 KB -
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In the meantime, I sent Ms. Smith an email the next day on 2/7/14, telling her my service had been shut off and I tried calling the night before to speak with someone else, but they couldn't do much for me because she had already been working with me. Again, I never did get a response.
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Message was edited by: Admin ModeratorHi Barry,
I am sorry about the mix up with the order, could you send me a PM of your contact details? Please include the email address you used to contact support. -
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David Forrester.
Sent from my iPad
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Purchase Device : Apple TV
Comments : I am being charged for what is listed plus another _9.99 for Apple TV pass. Did not authorise this _9.99 charge and not sure what it is exactly.
<Personal Information Edited by Host>This is a user-supported board. You are not addressing Apple here. Nor is it a good idea to post your private information to a public forum. You should edit your post immediately.
Unfortunately no one here can access your support history. You must respond to the emails directly.
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