FW: Who is FORTE for ? Who would benefit from FORTE?

Hi-
You made some good points in your recent posting. I like Forte' but also
see
advantages to using other tools based on specific requirements. See my
responses
below.
From: [email protected][SMTP:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 1996 10:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Who is FORTE for ? Who would benefit from FORTE ?
Who is forte really for ? Who would benefit from FORTE ?
The main benefit of Forte' is the abilitity to develop on a particular
platform and deploy to a multi-tier environment with platforms of any
type.
Specifically I am wondering if it makes a lot of sense for
shops having all Microsoft Windows platform - both for client and
server to gain from FORTE.
IMHO, Forte' may not be the ideal solution in that kind of
environment. Although, it would work fine, there are plenty
of windows based tools and apps that would work fine and
probably faster and cleaner.
I think that there are so many easy-to-use and economical tool
which can do RAD and give decent client-server performance on
Microsoft Windows platform costing much less than a FORTE solution.
I agree. Forte' is expensive and would be overkill if you just needed
a C++ app using ODBC going against a small local database.
And with these solutions you can easily put your data server on a
Unix box and access it seamlessly on Windows platform without
any extra tools (almost all popular databases come with
this database connectivity built-in).
Correct, as long as you don't need to put business logic
on the same server as well. You add a lot of complexity
going to multi-tier but add the advantage of load balancing
and failover.
What I think is unless you have run your application (or at least
a piece of your application) on operating systems like Unix or DEC
or unless if you have different platforms in your organization to
deploy your application on, there is not much you'll gain from FORTE.
I like Forte', but I have to agree with you. In a straight Windows 95/NT
environment with a Unix database server, I'd go with something like
MS Viz C++ and MS Access or Oracle. Forte' offers a lot for the multi-
platform environment but does have a fairly steep learning curve,
especially
when it comes to the system admin piece. And initially, your system will
need a lot of hand holding till all the pieces fit. The lack of CM,object persistence,
use of their proprietary object broker etc are things that they'llneed to address
in upcoming releases to remain competitive.
Also if your application is not for a large number of users (large,
I think is 200+ user), you gain little from your investment in FORTE.
I believe that in this case you do not need a middleware, you can
have logical 3-tier (or n-tier) and deploy your application on
physical 2-tier (client and server) with more than one logical tier
running on one of the physical tier (client or server). Middleware,
I believe, is not worth the cost, effort and time unless you
absolutely need it.
Agreed, but it depends on your needs and requirements. We
at Corning, are developing some apps in Forte' and some in
C++ and are looking at object broker middleware to allow all
apps to share common objects. Our determination as to which
language/environment to use is based on many factors, some of
which you've already mentioned. Our servers are Vax OVMS, Alpha VMS,
and Alpha NT. Our clients are PCs (NT 3.51, NT4.0, W95, W3.1) and Alpha NT.
We had a couple of Macs but development and end user response was so
painfully
slow that they were replaced with far superior NT PCs (again, IMHO).
PS- You may want to check out Forte' Express before you make adecision, especially
if you are building DB apps with table editors/browsers. It is anexcellent rapid development
tool, and teamed with Select Enterprise (for round trip Development<--> Documentation)
it makes a great package._______________________________
Jeff Austin
Corning / CTE
[email protected]
http://fortefy.wilmington.net

>
Hi-
You made some good points in your recent posting. I like Forte' but
also see
advantages to using other tools based on specific requirements. See my
responses
below.
From: [email protected][SMTP:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 1996 10:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Who is FORTE for ? Who would benefit from FORTE ?
Who is forte really for ? Who would benefit from FORTE ?
The main benefit of Forte' is the abilitity to develop on a particular
platform and deploy to a multi-tier environment with platforms of any
type.Specifically I am wondering if it makes a lot of sense for
shops having all Microsoft Windows platform - both for client and
server to gain from FORTE.
IMHO, Forte' may not be the ideal solution in that kind of
environment. Although, it would work fine, there are plenty
of windows based tools and apps that would work fine and
probably faster and cleaner.I think that there are so many easy-to-use and economical tool
which can do RAD and give decent client-server performance on
Microsoft Windows platform costing much less than a FORTE solution.
I agree. Forte' is expensive and would be overkill if you just needed
a C++ app using ODBC going against a small local database.And with these solutions you can easily put your data server on a
Unix box and access it seamlessly on Windows platform without
any extra tools (almost all popular databases come with
this database connectivity built-in).
Correct, as long as you don't need to put business logic
on the same server as well. You add a lot of complexity
going to multi-tier but add the advantage of load balancing
and failover.What I think is unless you have run your application (or at least
a piece of your application) on operating systems like Unix or DEC
or unless if you have different platforms in your organization to
deploy your application on, there is not much you'll gain from FORTE.
I like Forte', but I have to agree with you. In a straight Windows 95/NT
environment with a Unix database server, I'd go with something like
MS Viz C++ and MS Access or Oracle. Forte' offers a lot for the multi-
platform environment but does have a fairly steep learning curve,
especially
when it comes to the system admin piece. And initially, your system will
need a lot of hand holding till all the pieces fit. The lack of CM,
object persistence,
use of their proprietary object broker etc are things that they'll
need to address
in upcoming releases to remain competitive.Also if your application is not for a large number of users (large,
I think is 200+ user), you gain little from your investment in FORTE.
I believe that in this case you do not need a middleware, you can
have logical 3-tier (or n-tier) and deploy your application on
physical 2-tier (client and server) with more than one logical tier
running on one of the physical tier (client or server). Middleware,
I believe, is not worth the cost, effort and time unless you
absolutely need it.
Agreed, but it depends on your needs and requirements. We
at Corning, are developing some apps in Forte' and some in
C++ and are looking at object broker middleware to allow all
apps to share common objects. Our determination as to which
language/environment to use is based on many factors, some of
which you've already mentioned. Our servers are Vax OVMS, Alpha VMS,
and Alpha NT. Our clients are PCs (NT 3.51, NT4.0, W95, W3.1) and
Alpha NT.
We had a couple of Macs but development and end user response was so
painfully
slow that they were replaced with far superior NT PCs (again, IMHO).
PS- You may want to check out Forte' Express before you make a
decision, especially
if you are building DB apps with table editors/browsers. It is an
excellent rapid development
tool, and teamed with Select Enterprise (for round trip Development
<--> Documentation)
it makes a great package._______________________________
Jeff Austin
Corning / CTE
[email protected]
http://fortefy.wilmington.net

Similar Messages

  • RE : Who would benefit from Forte?

    RE : Jerry Fatcheric's message about "Who would benefit from Forte?"
    With regards the point mentioned in the attached message from Jerry
    Fatcheric below, I would like to illustrate my point. I implemented in both
    Visual Basic and Delphi, the example that is mentioned in the attached
    message, about a browser application, having the capability to browse
    thousands of records with the inital screenful needing to come ASAP. It took
    me less than 2 minutes to implement this in VB (I timed it). Just threw a
    "remote data" control and a "DBGrid" control on a form, set a few properties
    and wrote a "select *" sql specifying that only 30 records be returned at a
    time. For a table with 4K records, the first 30 came in and got displayed in
    less than 2 seconds. In Delphi, the response was even better and whole 4K of
    record could be retrieved in less than 4 second. (Yes less than 4 seconds
    for retrieving 4000 records from a DB2/NT database running on a remote
    machine). Even I could not believe the performance of Delphi which I haven't
    used that much. These tools are THE fastest way to get the data from a
    database server to a windows client. These will perform any day better than
    FORTE. One of the problem that I came across FORTE in one of situations like
    this was data movement across nodes is very costly. In one of our
    applications, since we stored the data as objects, in a similar situation as
    you have mentioned, the performance of moving a lot of data form the server
    to the client was not very good and in consulation with FORTE technical
    support we had to convert the data in objects to scalar (delimited string),
    move across node, and convert the data back to object at a client.
    Performance increase - 40 secs. vs 120 secs. earlier.
    About my background. I have worked about 8 years in application development
    and for the past 4 years have been working in a client server environment.
    Being a consultant, I have used many tools, including FORTE for one year, to
    provide my clients with the most bang for their buck, which to me is the
    topmost priority as a Consultant. I do not decide for my clients what
    technology they should use but sure evaluate the various options they have
    and recommend more than one solutions, listing the advantages and
    disadvantages.
    Currently working on coming up with a solution for a client with a customer
    service application need with around 50 users now, scaling up to 100 users
    in the future. The best solution that I could come up with was a logical
    3-tier with the presentation and the business layer running on NT
    workstation (client) and the database on NT server (server). With all the
    processing on a powerful and healthy (not "fat") client the system, I feel
    can scale very well. For a 500 user system, you literally have 500
    application server (physically on the client machine) being served by one
    data server. To the data server, having a physical middle tier between the
    client and the data server, I feel would not help, at least in our
    situation. Almost everything that the middle tier could do to reduce the
    load on the data server can be handled by the "business layer" running on
    the client machine. It does mean that each user connects to the database
    directly so in a case of 500 user, there are 500 connections to the database
    but lately with the sophisticated DBMS, this is no longer an issue. The DBMS
    can manage this many user very economically (read the benchmark about SQL
    server with 5000, yes 5k user at "www.microsoft.com/sql") and almost as well
    as a middle tier. It is fault tolerant - nothing can bring down the system
    except a client failure, the data server failure or a network failure, the
    same failure points as a N-Tier solution unless you are replicating or
    duplicating the database. In our solution our application is as scaleable as
    the database is, and the databases available today are very scaleable if you
    look at the current database technology offerings.
    As you may have guessed the abovementioned solution is cheaper with a very
    fast "time to market" than a forte solution (we started this about 6 months
    back and are in production for the past 1 month). This may not have all the
    features that FORTE offers, but for our purposes and I feel in similar
    applications, what we got was what we needed. By no means, this is going to
    meet all information tecnology needs for everyone and in many situations I
    believe FORTE would be well suited than any other tool.
    I still use FORTE can would continue to do so for some of the solutions that
    we develop, but I do not think that one shoud be using FORTE for "any
    development that is bigger than a breadbox" as Mr. Fatcheric suggests in the
    attached message, simply because if I do that, than I think that in some
    cases I would be selling the user a tank when the user just needs a rifle.
    I consider giving my clients the most value for their money in getting this
    solution developed. I would suggest my clients FORTE when I think they needs
    them but would definitely suggest another solution if I think that they can
    get their solution developed and get more value for their money using some
    other tool. Towards this end I would like to find out what kind of solutions
    people are developing and what kind of performance they are getting
    specially related to Windows platform.
    Any information about the benefits (actual benefits) you are getting from
    FORTE would be highly appreciated which would let a lot of us decide when to
    use FORTE and when not to use FORTE to meet ours and our clients'
    everchanging information technology needs.
    - Ari Singh
    [email protected]
    Ari Singh wrote a provocative piece questioning the benefits of Forte
    in "Windows only", non-large scale applications. Rather than get into
    a large philosopical discussion, I would like to illustrate my point
    with an example taken from a current Forte project.
    First, my background: 10+ years in Client server applications. Worked
    for several years at Oracle and have experience with Sybase. Worked
    extensively with a 2 tiered CS product (Uniface) and write C and C++.
    NOT a Windows expert.
    In our current application, the requirement is to allow the user to
    browse literally thousands of records on the Windows Client. There will
    never be lots of users doing this, but the ones that do must have
    reasonable performance. Our initial tests indicated that if we simply
    had the server pump the data to the client, we would have significant
    performance problems and face memory limitations on the PC. SO we
    utilized Forte's N-tiered capabilities. When the user starts a query
    (using dynamic sql with user controlled WHERE and ORDER BY), we start
    an asynchronous retrieval on the server with data is cached in an
    anchored object on the server. When the query has found the first
    THIRTY (30) records (2 screens worth), it posts an event to the client
    and the client request the first thirty. The retrieval process continues
    independently while the user can browse data on the client. Not until
    the user scrolls down far enough does the client again request more
    data. If the user quits from the screen or starts a new query, the
    first one is cancelled. Otherwise, the query runs to completion on the
    server.
    This approach gives us 3-5 second response time regardless of the size
    of the query result set. It minimizes the data on the client (moving
    us toward a thin client). The kicker is that with the help of Martha
    Lyman from Forte, we developed this technique in about 4 hours! Add
    to this all the standard inheritance, OO stuff, partitioning,
    customized monitoring, etc, etc, and IT IS MY OPINION that Forte
    is a GOOD tool for any development that is bigger than a breadbox
    and worth the $$$. And that's the way it is.... SO there...
    Jerry Fatcheric
    Relational Options, Inc.
    Florham Park, New Jersey
    201-301-0200
    201-301-00377 (FAX)
    [email protected]

    RE : Jerry Fatcheric's message about "Who would benefit from Forte?"
    With regards the point mentioned in the attached message from Jerry
    Fatcheric below, I would like to illustrate my point. I implemented in both
    Visual Basic and Delphi, the example that is mentioned in the attached
    message, about a browser application, having the capability to browse
    thousands of records with the inital screenful needing to come ASAP. It took
    me less than 2 minutes to implement this in VB (I timed it). Just threw a
    "remote data" control and a "DBGrid" control on a form, set a few properties
    and wrote a "select *" sql specifying that only 30 records be returned at a
    time. For a table with 4K records, the first 30 came in and got displayed in
    less than 2 seconds. In Delphi, the response was even better and whole 4K of
    record could be retrieved in less than 4 second. (Yes less than 4 seconds
    for retrieving 4000 records from a DB2/NT database running on a remote
    machine). Even I could not believe the performance of Delphi which I haven't
    used that much. These tools are THE fastest way to get the data from a
    database server to a windows client. These will perform any day better than
    FORTE. One of the problem that I came across FORTE in one of situations like
    this was data movement across nodes is very costly. In one of our
    applications, since we stored the data as objects, in a similar situation as
    you have mentioned, the performance of moving a lot of data form the server
    to the client was not very good and in consulation with FORTE technical
    support we had to convert the data in objects to scalar (delimited string),
    move across node, and convert the data back to object at a client.
    Performance increase - 40 secs. vs 120 secs. earlier.
    About my background. I have worked about 8 years in application development
    and for the past 4 years have been working in a client server environment.
    Being a consultant, I have used many tools, including FORTE for one year, to
    provide my clients with the most bang for their buck, which to me is the
    topmost priority as a Consultant. I do not decide for my clients what
    technology they should use but sure evaluate the various options they have
    and recommend more than one solutions, listing the advantages and
    disadvantages.
    Currently working on coming up with a solution for a client with a customer
    service application need with around 50 users now, scaling up to 100 users
    in the future. The best solution that I could come up with was a logical
    3-tier with the presentation and the business layer running on NT
    workstation (client) and the database on NT server (server). With all the
    processing on a powerful and healthy (not "fat") client the system, I feel
    can scale very well. For a 500 user system, you literally have 500
    application server (physically on the client machine) being served by one
    data server. To the data server, having a physical middle tier between the
    client and the data server, I feel would not help, at least in our
    situation. Almost everything that the middle tier could do to reduce the
    load on the data server can be handled by the "business layer" running on
    the client machine. It does mean that each user connects to the database
    directly so in a case of 500 user, there are 500 connections to the database
    but lately with the sophisticated DBMS, this is no longer an issue. The DBMS
    can manage this many user very economically (read the benchmark about SQL
    server with 5000, yes 5k user at "www.microsoft.com/sql") and almost as well
    as a middle tier. It is fault tolerant - nothing can bring down the system
    except a client failure, the data server failure or a network failure, the
    same failure points as a N-Tier solution unless you are replicating or
    duplicating the database. In our solution our application is as scaleable as
    the database is, and the databases available today are very scaleable if you
    look at the current database technology offerings.
    As you may have guessed the abovementioned solution is cheaper with a very
    fast "time to market" than a forte solution (we started this about 6 months
    back and are in production for the past 1 month). This may not have all the
    features that FORTE offers, but for our purposes and I feel in similar
    applications, what we got was what we needed. By no means, this is going to
    meet all information tecnology needs for everyone and in many situations I
    believe FORTE would be well suited than any other tool.
    I still use FORTE can would continue to do so for some of the solutions that
    we develop, but I do not think that one shoud be using FORTE for "any
    development that is bigger than a breadbox" as Mr. Fatcheric suggests in the
    attached message, simply because if I do that, than I think that in some
    cases I would be selling the user a tank when the user just needs a rifle.
    I consider giving my clients the most value for their money in getting this
    solution developed. I would suggest my clients FORTE when I think they needs
    them but would definitely suggest another solution if I think that they can
    get their solution developed and get more value for their money using some
    other tool. Towards this end I would like to find out what kind of solutions
    people are developing and what kind of performance they are getting
    specially related to Windows platform.
    Any information about the benefits (actual benefits) you are getting from
    FORTE would be highly appreciated which would let a lot of us decide when to
    use FORTE and when not to use FORTE to meet ours and our clients'
    everchanging information technology needs.
    - Ari Singh
    [email protected]
    Ari Singh wrote a provocative piece questioning the benefits of Forte
    in "Windows only", non-large scale applications. Rather than get into
    a large philosopical discussion, I would like to illustrate my point
    with an example taken from a current Forte project.
    First, my background: 10+ years in Client server applications. Worked
    for several years at Oracle and have experience with Sybase. Worked
    extensively with a 2 tiered CS product (Uniface) and write C and C++.
    NOT a Windows expert.
    In our current application, the requirement is to allow the user to
    browse literally thousands of records on the Windows Client. There will
    never be lots of users doing this, but the ones that do must have
    reasonable performance. Our initial tests indicated that if we simply
    had the server pump the data to the client, we would have significant
    performance problems and face memory limitations on the PC. SO we
    utilized Forte's N-tiered capabilities. When the user starts a query
    (using dynamic sql with user controlled WHERE and ORDER BY), we start
    an asynchronous retrieval on the server with data is cached in an
    anchored object on the server. When the query has found the first
    THIRTY (30) records (2 screens worth), it posts an event to the client
    and the client request the first thirty. The retrieval process continues
    independently while the user can browse data on the client. Not until
    the user scrolls down far enough does the client again request more
    data. If the user quits from the screen or starts a new query, the
    first one is cancelled. Otherwise, the query runs to completion on the
    server.
    This approach gives us 3-5 second response time regardless of the size
    of the query result set. It minimizes the data on the client (moving
    us toward a thin client). The kicker is that with the help of Martha
    Lyman from Forte, we developed this technique in about 4 hours! Add
    to this all the standard inheritance, OO stuff, partitioning,
    customized monitoring, etc, etc, and IT IS MY OPINION that Forte
    is a GOOD tool for any development that is bigger than a breadbox
    and worth the $$$. And that's the way it is.... SO there...
    Jerry Fatcheric
    Relational Options, Inc.
    Florham Park, New Jersey
    201-301-0200
    201-301-00377 (FAX)
    [email protected]

  • Who would benefit from Forte?

    Ari Singh wrote a provocative piece questioning the benefits of Forte
    in "Windows only", non-large scale applications. Rather than get into
    a large philosopical discussion, I would like to illustrate my point
    with an example taken from a current Forte project.
    First, my background: 10+ years in Client server applications. Worked
    for several years at Oracle and have experience with Sybase. Worked
    extensively with a 2 tiered CS product (Uniface) and write C and C++.
    NOT a Windows expert.
    In our current application, the requirement is to allow the user to
    browse literally thousands of records on the Windows Client. There will
    never be lots of users doing this, but the ones that do must have
    reasonable performance. Our initial tests indicated that if we simply
    had the server pump the data to the client, we would have significant
    performance problems and face memory limitations on the PC. SO we
    utilized Forte's N-tiered capabilities. When the user starts a query
    (using dynamic sql with user controlled WHERE and ORDER BY), we start
    an asynchronous retrieval on the server with data is cached in an
    anchored object on the server. When the query has found the first
    THIRTY (30) records (2 screens worth), it posts an event to the client
    and the client request the first thirty. The retrieval process continues
    independently while the user can browse data on the client. Not until
    the user scrolls down far enough does the client again request more
    data. If the user quits from the screen or starts a new query, the
    first one is cancelled. Otherwise, the query runs to completion on the
    server.
    This approach gives us 3-5 second response time regardless of the size
    of the query result set. It minimizes the data on the client (moving
    us toward a thin client). The kicker is that with the help of Martha
    Lyman from Forte, we developed this technique in about 4 hours! Add
    to this all the standard inheritance, OO stuff, partitioning,
    customized monitoring, etc, etc, and IT IS MY OPINION that Forte
    is a GOOD tool for any development that is bigger than a breadbox
    and worth the $$$. And that's the way it is.... SO there...
    Jerry Fatcheric
    Relational Options, Inc.
    Florham Park, New Jersey
    201-301-0200
    201-301-00377 (FAX)
    [email protected]

    Ari Singh wrote a provocative piece questioning the benefits of Forte
    in "Windows only", non-large scale applications. Rather than get into
    a large philosopical discussion, I would like to illustrate my point
    with an example taken from a current Forte project.
    First, my background: 10+ years in Client server applications. Worked
    for several years at Oracle and have experience with Sybase. Worked
    extensively with a 2 tiered CS product (Uniface) and write C and C++.
    NOT a Windows expert.
    In our current application, the requirement is to allow the user to
    browse literally thousands of records on the Windows Client. There will
    never be lots of users doing this, but the ones that do must have
    reasonable performance. Our initial tests indicated that if we simply
    had the server pump the data to the client, we would have significant
    performance problems and face memory limitations on the PC. SO we
    utilized Forte's N-tiered capabilities. When the user starts a query
    (using dynamic sql with user controlled WHERE and ORDER BY), we start
    an asynchronous retrieval on the server with data is cached in an
    anchored object on the server. When the query has found the first
    THIRTY (30) records (2 screens worth), it posts an event to the client
    and the client request the first thirty. The retrieval process continues
    independently while the user can browse data on the client. Not until
    the user scrolls down far enough does the client again request more
    data. If the user quits from the screen or starts a new query, the
    first one is cancelled. Otherwise, the query runs to completion on the
    server.
    This approach gives us 3-5 second response time regardless of the size
    of the query result set. It minimizes the data on the client (moving
    us toward a thin client). The kicker is that with the help of Martha
    Lyman from Forte, we developed this technique in about 4 hours! Add
    to this all the standard inheritance, OO stuff, partitioning,
    customized monitoring, etc, etc, and IT IS MY OPINION that Forte
    is a GOOD tool for any development that is bigger than a breadbox
    and worth the $$$. And that's the way it is.... SO there...
    Jerry Fatcheric
    Relational Options, Inc.
    Florham Park, New Jersey
    201-301-0200
    201-301-00377 (FAX)
    [email protected]

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