How to make dual illuminant profile in DNG profile editor?

I have just started working with the DNG Profile Editor.  In another discussion I commented on the clarity of the instructions provided by the tutorial.  I had no difficulty creating a single illuminant profile using the X-Rite color checker passport.  But when it came to producing a dual illuminant profile, following the instructions exactly, I was stymied. 
1.  Open dng image of Color Checker photographed in 6500K illumination.
2.  Open dng image of Color Checker photographed in 2850K illumination.
3.  Select Chart tab in editor.
At this point one is instructed to "Click the 6500 K-lit ColorChecker image window to select it."
But the 2850K lit image (last loaded) has replaced the 6500K image window (at step 2) and I can find no way to reopen the 6500 K lit image window in order to proceed to the next step.
As a matter of interest, why do these instructions suggest setting the pop-up window in the Chart Pane to "6500K only" and then create color table with first image.  Thereafter select second image, set pop-up window to "2850K only" and create color table.  I seems to me that, having loaded two images (even if I can only see the second image loaded) one should choose "both color tables" and then create color table.  In fact I have tried this and it does produce a profile, but I have no way of determining if it is a correct dual illuminant profile.
Please help.

2. HYPERLINK "/people/MadManChan2000"MadManChan2000,
Oct 21, 2013 9:09 AM in reply to blumesan
Note that the "Both color tables" option always creates a single-illuminant profile. The "Both color tables" option means that the computed color corrections will be applied to both color tables (i.e., the color table for the first calibration illuminant, which is usually Standard Light A, and also the color table for the second calibration illuminant, which is usually D65).
After playing around with the Profile Editor for a while, and examining the results with dcpTool, I now understand (I hope) what Eric is saying. In his language a single-illuminant profile is one created from a single dng image using the "both color tables" option (without regard to the illuminant used to capture that image.) When one does this (using Adobe Standard as the base profile) an examination of the resulting profile with dcpTool shows the following:
Two illluminants are identified: 17 (Std A) and 21 (D65).
Color Matrix 1 & 2; Forward Matrix 1 & 2; Hue Sat Delta Tables 1 & 2.
Which certainly gives the impression of a dual illuminant profile to novices like myself.  My guess is that the PE software itself applies a default assumption of these two illuminants, corrects the image for each illuminant and constructs two color tables, one for each illluminant. When used, the profile will interpolate between the two tables based on the white balance of the image being edited.
If this is indeed correct it makes me wonder in what way does such a profile differ from a dual illuminant profile created from two dng images, each captured under a different illuminant (2800K & 6500K) as described in Tutorial #6 of the PE instructions. These instructions contain the following description of such a dual illuminant profile: "The result is a single profile that performs well under a wide range of illuminants instead of a single fixed illuminant."   Which really make me scratch my head. Should one conclude from this that a single illuminant profile (created using the "both color tables" option) will perform less well under a range of illuminants?  Will it perform well only under a narrow range of illuminants centered around the illuminant used to capture the single image? 
As a footnote, it is worth remarking that I (and perhaps others) have been confused by examining profiles created by the XRite software when using only a single dng image. Examining such a profile with dcpTool one sees the following structure:
One illuminant only #23 (D50)
A single Color Matrix table.
A single Hue Sat Delta Table.
Thus one comes to expect this structure in a single illuminant profile.
I would be very happy to see Eric's comments..

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    The color profile changes with the lighting, so a profile that was computed for daylight won’t be right for tungsten or fluorescent.  Keep in mind that a custom camera profile is the set of corrections on top of an existing Adobe profile that the DNG has assigned to it, perhaps Adobe Standard, and all Adobe profiles are dual-illuminant profiles, so it makes sense you’d want to also create a dual-illuminant profile for general purpose use that has the same two lighting scenarios as Adobe used:  2850K and 6500K.  The 6500K is the tricky one because full sun is warmer, closer to 5000K, and you need the right amount of haze to create 6500K sunlight, unless you are using standard D65 bulbs, indoors, which is likely what Adobe does.
    I use a dual-illuminant profile for general purpose use, but since the WB-Tint values of both the tungsten and daylight ends are close to zero, lighting that has a tint not close to zero needs a separate profile.  The common example is the greenish light from fluorescents, and I have several single-illuminant profiles for various artificial lighting scenarios with WB-Tint values that are relatively non-zero.  I also have ones for very red sunsets and very blue twilight.  If I had studio lighting I’d make a profile for that.  Sometimes I make a custom profile for a church or other venue that has significant non-neutral walls or ceilings, or where sunlight through the stained-glass windows shining on the walls are giving a significant color-cast including a non-zero tint value to the lighting.  If you know you’ll be doing some shots near a large amount of tall, green vegetation then a custom color profile can correct for the green tinge to the ambient lighting coming down from above mixing in with the sunlight. 
    Adding to the suggestion about wearing neutral clothing, I’d argue for dark neutral clothing because something lighter clothing will reflect environmental colors (sunlit vegetation or brick walls, etc, outdoors) and not be neutral. 
    Besides non-neutral clothing, try to avoid areas that have green grass or tree leaves or brick buildings that also color the light and reflect off the colorchecker.   For the sunlit shots, I put my colorchecker face up on the sidewalk or parking lot, to avoid coloration from the grass and far away from trees or buildings especially in the direction I’m pointing the camera, so the only lighting is direct sun and ambient blue-sky, possibly diffused by hazy clouds.  I point the camera down at the colorchecker, at a 45-degree angle and at a compass direction and not directly toward the sun, nor directly away from the sun.  I try to shoot the target that is face up on the ground perhaps at a 90-degree angle from the sun to minimize any residual glare from the colorchecker’s slightly non-matte surface.  Obviously directly away from the sun, the color-checker will have my shadow on it or I will be blocking the light from the sky near the sun.
    I use the same sort of process for the tungsten end, choosing a room with neutral walls and put the target relatively flat on the floor facing up, perhaps tipped up somewhat toward the light, but not so much as to have any glare from the lighting, either, in other words, not with the lighting directly behind the camera, but somewhat over to the side.

  • Profile Editor - color temp accuracy required w/ a color checker chart?

    I've been using a set of Camera Calibration adjustments determined by Thomas Fors' script, like a lot of folks. I understand that I can continue to use the old profile for my cameras in LR 2.0, and the calibration settings I've already got will work fine with those profiles.
    If I were to move to the new beta DNG profiles, and wanted to normalize the profiles to my camera via the color chart option... how accurate do the illuminant color temperatures need to be in order to take advantage of a dual illuminant profile? I don't have a color meter, unfortunately. If I were to, say, illuminate a chart evenly using strobes (which are really closer to 5500-5800), and then use the modeling lights on the strobes (tungsten, but unsure of exact temp), is that going to be close enough into the ballpark to be usable?
    Another way of putting it, I guess, is how close to the specified illuminant temps is close enough? Is it hyper-critical, or is there some "fudgeability"???
    Dave

    Well, the whole point behind a dual illuminant profile is that the sensor responds differently under different light sources. Tutorial 5 is a single illuminant example. I'm specifically looking at Tutorial 6, not Tutorial 5.
    ETA - the point being, to get the best "all purpose" profile, you can create a dual illuminant profile that matches your camera and covers a wide variety of lighting situations. It allows ACR/LR to vary the profile based on the white balance of the image (and therefore, in theory, to the spectral response of your camera at that white balance).
    Nothing is perfect, obviously, but...

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