To those considering CS5

i had a nice chat about this a few weeks ago. Money is an issue for most people i understand.
Especially now. I own no stock in Adobe and have no interest in its stock.
I for one have a Macpro ( intel ) and a PowerPC (non intel ). The PowerPC to my utter disdain
will not accept CS5. This entails moving switching unplugging rearranging my setup etc etc etc
I had no idea CS5 needed intel. This means i might have to buy another MACPro because
Pshop is essential to my work flow and CS5 is worth it.
getting more to the point here.
CS5 is exceptional! It is smooth, does things so easily and nicely i cant believe my eyes. In prior ACR, CS4 i had to
click 4 times before the levers would move.
CS5 is like having a MacPro with 10.6 to someone who comes from a PowerPC 8500 with OS 7.5
It is delightful, the content aware, cloning, spot healing brush, selection tool is more than worth the purchase
if you have an intel computer! Heal a scratch in CS4 then do it in CS5 OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To say that you can do everything in CS4 that you can in CS5 is really not an argument that i would engage in.
It is really close to lunacy once youve introduced your mouse/tablet to CS5.
There is a learning curve to optimizing these features. Its worth it! If you need a pair of new shoes i understand
there are priorities, such as mortgage con edison etc but if you are thinking that CS5 is just a bit better than
its predecessor you are sorely mistaken. It is light years ahead.
It is a gift for the photographer like no other before.
Dont fight with yourself! If you can afford the 199 get it. You will experience a workflow and ease of use that you have
never seen before. They really made it what it should be for us day and night users.
thanks for listening
glenn losack
http://www.glennlosackmd.com

Roger
lets pause here.............
anything novel during a recession when others are doing well and youre not ( in general not you ) when a new product comes along
the justification for not owning it is clearly economics not the product itself. The first thing someone will do is to " demean it".
Thats my opinion. 200-700 dollars these days is certainly alot for people.
Plus the INTEL factor. you must own an intel MAC to use it!
I have a MAC PRO with 10 GB RAM 10.5.8
it is smooth the zoom factor is smooth
the levers go smooth
the extra features are miraculously improved.
it might be the computer power .
To be able to select something and get it 99 percent great.... hair.... trees is IMHO worth the 199.
the extraction delete content aware adds to this.
hey its only my opinion......
what are people going to wait for CS6?
thats ok with me while im having an easier fun almost euphoric time with CS5.
i just have to buy another MAC Pro now.
all the best

Similar Messages

For those considering the new MBA, a short review.

I've had my new MBA (1.86GHz, 128 GB SSD) for two days, and I'm delighted with it. I thought, therefore, that it might be useful to post my experience with the machine for anyone considering buying one.
The first thing I noticed was how incredibly fast the MBA is. I've got a first gen Intel MBP and a Santa Rosa MB, but the MBA simply destroys them in boot time/app loading time/web page load time, you name it. I'm sure the CPU accounts for some of this, but most of the credit has to go to the solid state disk. It's definitely worth the extra money for such a noticeable speed boost. Nothing lags and nothing drags; the whole system is impressively responsive.
It's also eerily silent. There's no disk whirring, of course, but also very little sound from the fan. I know overheating and all manner of CPU-throttling, video-stuttering nastiness affected the old MBA, but none of that has manifested itself on my machine. I spent a couple of hours testing it out with flash movies, YouTube videos, a DVD (via SuperDrive), and a bit of gaming (Spore runs fine, by the way), but nothing got hotter than 60 degrees C. I'd say Apple have definitely fixed the heating problems.
The result is a fast, quiet, stylish machine that gives many full-sized laptops a run for their money. The first generation MBA was labeled a "secondary laptop" by some reviewers, a machine intended for those who already had an MBP or Mac Pro at home, but who wanted something a bit more portable. Version 2 is, on the other hand, an excellent primary lapop for those users who don't have the need for high-end, discrete graphics.
Of course, everything has its downside, and the MBA is no exception. It could use another USB port (to save me having to carry a port replicator), the mini-DisplayPort video output required the purchase of yet another set of converter dongles (grumble grumble), and the trackpad button seems to require a bit too much force to operate (other threads have highlighted this issue so it may be a fault in some machines). When I first booted the MBA, the iSight camera didn't work, but a quick SMU reset fixed that. The glossy screen is fine for me, although I understand the point of view of those on the other side of the debate, so I can see how it could be a negative.
And that's pretty much it. I bought the MBA to be a "travel companion," very much secondary to my other Macs. After a couple of days, however, I have relegated my MacBook to secondary status, and made the MBA my main Mac. It's a delight to own and use. I highly recommend it.

Hi,
I have a problem with lines on mine. They are in the form of faint horizontal lines running across the whole screen. They are very noticeable on a white background, i.e. when typing on a word processor. I have a MacBook and two iMacs in the house, and these don't exhibit the same problems.
I find that my eyes get fairly tired after an hour or so use with the Air. The text is not as clear as my MacBook. It was quite disappointing as I expected the display to be better than the MacBook.
It does seem that quite a few people are having the same problem. There are a lot of postings on forums even at this early stage, for example:
+“I have the new MacBook Air 1.86/128GB SSD, and I too see very faint lines on my display. They are not completely horizontal - rather, they are pitched at about a -5 degree angle from left to right, and appear to be about 1 pixel in width, and 1 pixel apart.”+
However, I have a case ID with Apple and will try and reset the Air’s System Management Controller when I get home tonight. If that doesn’t work I’m going to send the Air back for replacement. Considering the cost of the Air I do want to get one that is clear of any defects. Apple support has been very good thus far. I’m also wondering is a driver fix for the Nvidia chip set might solve the problem?
This issue aside it is a fabulous computer. I think Apple have got the spec spot on with the rev2 Air. It’s responsive, runs cool and is a total joy to use.
Graham.

Warning to those considering buying a Mac Book Pro!

In case you are a power user, and use the CMD-TAB shortcut to switch between applications, be aware that doing this on the MPB will disable the track pad... at first I thought it was my machine but you can go into any apple store and reproduce this on all the machines on the floor.
1 -Launch 2 applications
2- start to move the cursor using the track pad (slightly off center)
3- CMD-TAB to switch to a new application
4- The cursor will freeze, until you move your finger to the center area of the trackpad.
This is truly a pain... each time I show this to someone in the store they are stunned... and no one can answer whether it is a hardware or software issue.
... Try it your self before buying

wow, your only complaint and reason for not buying this wonderful machine is that the mouse might stop moving for a second if u finger is not on center on the trackpad and u cmd-tab an app. well how often do u need to use your trackpad when u are cmd-tabbing??? if ur gonna use the trackpad, just select the desired app with that!

How do I get CS5 updated to read raw format photos

Why doesn't Photoshop read raw format photos from Nikon D600? I've tried downloading new versions of "Camera Raw". It downloads and installs successfully, but I still can't open the files in photoshop.

Bad news:
The Nikon D600 didn't get RAW support until Camera Raw version 7.3, which is in CS6 and above. (CS5 only had support up until Camera Raw 6.7.)
Good news:
You can still convert your NEFs using the DNG Converter and open those in CS5. Otherwise, if you want out-of-the-box RAW/NEF support, you'll have to upgrade to CS6 or CC.

Is there a way to package an InDesign CC book for earlier versions of InDesign - CS5 specifically?

Is there a way to package an InDesign CC book for earlier versions of InDesign - CS5 specifically?

You have to export the individual files to .idml, open those in CS5 and add the CS5 versions to a new CS5 book.

CS3 to CS5 Conversion - Is it possible to batch convert?

Hi, the company I'm working for is doing the move to CS5 from CS3 Indesign.
When resaving the old CS3 documents in CS5, instead of just saving over the current file, it's bringing up a 'save as' type of dialog.
As we have literally thousands of documents to rework and they are mostly in different locations, I was wondering if anyone knew of a way we can speed this process up. Is there a setting that will bypass 'save as' in this situation? Maybe a good batch converter we could try?
Help would be much appreciated.
Cheers,
Emile.

It's probably scriptable (and I think maybe Peter Kahrel has actually already written a script to do it), but the last thing you want to do is bypass the save as and overwrite the CS3 versions. There are occasional problems with converted files, and if you've destroyed your CS3 versions you'll have no backup position.
In fact, I strongly recommend that you do any of these conversions in two steps. First convert to .inx, then convert those to CS5 for the most trouble-free files after conversion. Personally, I would not convert any files until necessary, but I don't know your workflow. For minor edits you are probably just as well off to leave old files in CS3 and do new projects in CS5 going forward.

Has Adobe ended support for Photoshop CS5

I use Secunia PSI to monitor my software for updates. Right around the time CS6 shipped, PSI started reporting all of my CS5 applications as "end of life" meaning no more patches will be released.
Is it correct that CS5 is no longer supported with patches?
CS5 to CS6 seems like an upgrade of just one version, but maybe Adobe considered CS5.5 to be a full version upgrade?

Generally speaking, Adobe always stops releasing point revisions of their software the minute a new major version is released.
Version 12.anything is considered CS5, and the 12.0.4 patch for Photoshop CS5 brought it up to be functionaly equivalent of Photoshop CS5.5 (save for cloud licensing).
That said, there's a 12.0.5 that's "half released" to address some concerns over a vulnerability when opening TIFF files that was brought to light around the time of the Ps CS6 release. It's not clear whether 12.0.5 is ever going to be released through the mainstream software update process.
Out of curiosity, why do you use a 3rd party update monitoring package? Adobe has one of its own.
-Noel

M2t (mpeg2 layer2 audio) Out Of Sync audio after upgrade to cs5

Hi Everyone,
We use JVC GYHD201 Cameras daily - they produce MPEG T/S files that worked fine in CS4.
I am running win 7 Ultimate 64 on an intel Skulltrail MB w 16 gig of ram, 2 x 9775 quad core processors and a ati 4870x2 video card with 2 gigs of ram.
Here is the chain of events,
Lots of projects in cs4, no transcoding files work straight from the camera's DVR. (720p30)
I decide to CS5
I deactivate CS4 Install CS5 - CS5 trial works with all my projects and reads the now offending m2t files fine, works great.
I open AE CS4, - I get sorry to interrupt but enter a serial number or go to trial mode. I select trial mode.
Now, CS5 can no longer import the files.
I read about needing a full license for many formats, considering cs5 a nice upgrade, fork out the dough.
After entering serial numbers and restarting files import fine, BUT sound is out of sync by a 1-2 seconds and expotentially as the video plays out.
Files play fine in vlc, media player etc.
Codec Sniper shows all /cs4/mainconcept codecs as broken
I deinstall CS4/ CS5 and reinstall cs5 only, Same problem
I deinstall cs5, delete every folder with adobe on it in /user/ and prog files reinstall, same problem (cs4 installation fix)
I deinstall, delete all folders and create a new user install to that user, same problem (cs4 installation fix)
Reinstall quicktime ,...
I buy the Mainconcept mpeg2 64bit codec pack, same problem
Converting the video to MONO fixes the out of sync. -go figure.
Unfortunate, our operators are too lazy to shut off the second mic so quite often I have to copy left or right channel. Also, I have many left right recordings with 2 mics, this is not a solution I can live with. (Kudos to Mr. Jolly of Adobe video tech support in India for the Mono fix)
These same files open fine in a machine that has cs4 and cs5 installed on it,
want to get into transcoding to fix it, does anyone know who to force the adobe splitter to use the mainconcpt codecs I just bought or to force the use of whatever codecs are supposed to be included in cs5?
Any ideas would be appreciated.this has gone on for 3-4 days now and I am quickly falling behind on the work flow.

I am wondering is anyone can tell me where CS5 is looking for it's codecs??, it doesn't seem to be using windows

Will Fireworks 8 and Flash Pro 8 upload to Dreamweaver CS5.5?

I have Macromedia Studio 8 and use Dreamweaver 8 almost exclusively. I would like to purchase Dreamweaver CS5.5, but would like to know if work in both Flash Pro 8 and Fireworks 8 would be able to be uploaded to Dreamweaver CS5.5 or do I need to purchase both of those in CS5.5?

I'd bet that content created in Flash Pro 8 and Fireworks 8 would be compatible with Dreamweaver CS5.5, though I'm not absolutely certain of it (and I'm not quite sure what you mean by "upload"). However, I'm definitely wondering why you're interested in upgrading Dreamweaver but not the other two applications.
If you're serious about taking the leap, you can download Dreamweaver CS5.5 as a 30-day trial before purchasing, to see how it works in conjunction with those applications.
http://www.adobe.com/downloads/
Be aware that CS6 is just around the corner. You may want to wait just a bit and try that instead. On the other hand, if you were to purchase Dreamweaver CS5.5 now, you'd probably qualify for an automatic upgrade to the CS6 version when it's released.
http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver/buying-guide-version-comparison.html
Also, Adobe's now pushing its "Creative Cloud", which is a monthly membership option that includes all the Creative Suite applications plus some new web-oriented applications that might be of interest to you, such as Adobe Muse.
http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud.html
http://www.adobe.com/products/muse.html
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/

CS5 and Quicktime

For those with CS5... is Quicktime included in the install, or should I download from Apple and install myself?
If QT is included with CS5... which version?

Right now, I don't think I will NEED Quicktime with CS5, since I will only be editing any AVI files I digitize using my Dv500 over in my WinXP boot side (still have a few old VHS tapes I'm converting to DVD before the tapes stop working due to age) and then, of course, the MTS AVCHD files from my new Canon Vixia
I don't work with anything .MOV so I guess I'll just wait and see what CS5 does during install
My order is on the way (due Thursday the 3rd) and then "a day or so" to send my University proof to the ID site and get a serial number... so I should be able to install next Saturday (or late Friday?)
I was going to do some more test filming yesterday, but hands were dirty from yard work, and then it started raining again, so maybe I'll just wander around the house to get some clips to play with (I'm sure I won't be able to KEEP anything, since my wife is very picky about how things look, but for test and toss she should be OK... having a wife who is a semi-retired Interior Designer means it is really difficult to take even a still pic without her fussing in the background)

Shooting RAW with Nikon d600 and photoshop cs5?

I have a Nikon d600 and need to shoot RAW instead of jpeg. I have always shot in jpeg so I don't know where to even start. I have CS5 and I don't know what I need to do to be able to load, edit and return pictures to clients. Please help.

The D600 didn't get RAW out-of-the-box support until Camera Raw version 7.3...which is in CS6 and above.
You have a few options (in free to paid order):
Use the software that came with the D600 to open and work with Canon NEF files.
Download and install the DNG Converter so that you can open converted Canon NEF files to DNG and open those in CS5.
Pay to upgrade to Photoshop CS6 or Photoshop CC.
Beyond that, if your camera isn't already doing it, you should be able to switch to NEF for file format by going into the D600's user interface menu. (Most cameras will let you shoot JPEG-only, which is sometimes the default, RAW-only or JPEG+RAW. Consult the D600's manual or just dig around the menus for such a setting.)

Judge a flash book by its recommendations

I went to Waterstones to look for Flash CS5 How To - Tips and Tricks publications. Something along the lines of the WoW books for Photoshop and Illustrator. To my surprise, they had a grand array of none, absolutely nothing - not one single book. Considering CS5.5 is already out, I very much doubt they will be getting any stock in soon either on CS5 since it's out of date already.
So . . . Has anyone purchased a good Flash CS5 guide book that they would recommend. I am looking for a book more geared towards Web Design in Flash as opposed to Animation in it's traditional sense. I was hoping to find a book that Deconstructs some of those Super Funky Websites like - Waterlife CarlCox or Knekt and let's us newbies in on the act - one that reveals the really clever and controlled uses of flash.
As much as I love Animation it's not my thing. I am much more interested in the Design and Interactive Nature that Flash can bring to websites.
If you know of a good book - please let me know and maybe I can order it on-line since my local bookshop has nothing to offer.
thanks

Thanks,
But I do need somtimes books from previous generation, 1.0.2.2, 9.0.2, DB books, eBusiness Suite core tech books, and so on.
Seems that a basic feature - you have the book part number, but you cant find it by this number - is missing.

PE8 Trials and Tribulations

This is the story of my four day experience installing and running PE8. For some of you there are tips that may help fix your problems. For others you will simply relate to my experience. For those considering purchasing PE8 I highly recommend that you do your homework before jumping in.
I've been using PE4 for the last two years and was quite happy with the features and flexibility. I consider myself a prosumer/serious hobbyist and have extensive geek experience. My usual jobs consist of importing HDV video from DV tape that was recorded with a Canon HV20. I combine the video with still shots from a Canon 20D in JPG format, throw in some music, and make short (<5 min) videos. I render and export in Widescreen DVD format (both PC and disk) and to H.264 HD format (both PC and Blu-ray disk).
Last week I decided that I should finally upgrade to the newest version just to stay current. I didn't read any reviews or do any research since I've always had a high level of respect for Adobe quality. Unfortunately my experience with PE8 has not been good. I've spent the better part of four days trying to get it working properly. I've had successes and disapointments. Some of you may benefit from the fixes that I used and I hope they will get you going with a functional and stable platform.
System:
Intel Core 2 Quad (Q6600) native 2.4 GHz, overclocked to 3.0 GHz
4 GB RAM
1 TB striped RAID (RAID 0 for speed)
Nvidia 8800 GT
Samsung SH-S203B DVD RW
Pioneer BDR-203 BD RW (Blu-ray)
Vista x32
Installed PE8, updated to the latest version of QuickTime (7.65.17), and went merrily off working on my first project. I immediately started having stability issues. Crashes without any warning, crashes with "out-of-memory" messages, crashes with "unknown cause" messages, crashes to the BSOD, couldn't render anything without a crash, overloaded processors even when the program was idle AND after it was closed, etc. Not good. All this on a platform that is extremely stable with every other software package I run.
After spending a couple days researching the issues I applied some system modifications that actually fixed most of the problems I was having. In fact the program only crashed once or twice following the changes - a tolerable frequency as long as I saved frequently. Prior to the changes it was crashing very frequently.
Here's the steps that got my PE8 running stable (insert reboots in the usual places):
1) Uninstalled existing QuickTime and Nvidia drivers (QT 7.65.17, Nvidia ?)
2) Installed QuickTime 7.3.1 and updated Nvidia GeForce drivers to v195.62
3) Uninstalled GeForce Stereoscopic 3D Driver (this doesn't affect your 3D gaming unless you use 3D glasses)
4) Disabled the Auto-Analyzer "feature" in Elements Organizer
5) Disabled Background Rendering in PE8
After taking these steps the only really annoying problem that still existed is that "Adobe Premier Elements.exe" continues to run after closing the program. It hogs about 25% - 100% of the 4 processors but doesn't appear to be doing anything. And yes, I did leave it running overnight just to see if it would ever finish whatever it thought it was doing - nope.
Overall I was very happy that the mods fixed 90+% of my stability issues. I completed my 4 minute video without much trouble and then...I tried to render the final product. The standard DVD quality rendering works great - in both PC executable and disk products. The HD 720p works fine in PC executable format. But the one thing that I really need to produce is H.264 or MPEG2 at 1920x1080. In the final product everything seems to render okay and the video starts out okay but at exactly 30 seconds the audio cuts out. The interesting thing is that I can start from any point in the video and the sound lasts for 30 seconds and then dies.
I found a post where another person was having the exact same problem with standard resolution PC output and they were able to fix it by selecting the Advanced button to open the Export Settings, selecting the Audio tab, and then selecting MPEG for the audio format. If you are having this audio problem you should definitely try the above fix! Unfortunately, for the higher res HD output no such option exists under the audio tab. There is perhaps a 3rd option to fix this problem and that is to buy another video editing program, read in the corrupt PE8 output and re-render. Apparently this has worked for some folks but I'm refusing to buy another program just to fix the errors of the editor I already have.
In summary, if you are having stability issues try the fixes I've listed above. They could potentially fix your problems and get you up and running. As for me, I can't find a way to get around the audio problem and it's the one last thing preventing me from having a functional PE8. I plan to return the product (ordered from Adobe online) in the hopes that voting with my dollars will encourage them to fix the PE8 problems. My impression of the current version of PE8 is that it is an abomination that should have never been released. It is substandard even for a beta version. If Adobe can fix their PE8 problems and create a editor that is half as good as their other products they I will be the first to sign up for a new copy.
Good luck with whatever trials and tribulations that you may be experiencing with PE8. I'm glad that the program is working for some and for the rest I hope Santa delivers a serious PE8 patch!

Please post "PE8 Trials and Tribulations" as a customer review on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65045377-Premiere-Elements-8/product-reviews/B002IJA1DM/ref=dp _top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1http://.
I have the same computer and have experienced the same problems as you have. If you are able to get PE8 to function properly you will find that PE8 runs slower than PE7 due to all the new features (useless fluff).
You might also try deleteing any Reatek Audio drivers and allowing Win 7 to install it's driver, this seems to have helped my PE8 sound conflicts. I agree with you one hundred percent that PE8 should have been stabilized and the compatibility issues resolved before it was released. I guess things are done diferently at Adobe Bangalore.

Windows update 8.1 in my netbook

Good morning.
When I bought my Satellite C50-B a week ago I turned off Windows Update.
Actually my notebook is working great, but I want to know if you think it´s necessary to run WU manually some times for updating all or if I can stay Ok with the current settings.
I wouldnt like that it works slower if I update.
Thanks for your time and have a nice weekend..

I turned off Windows Update ... I want to know if you think it´s necessary to run WU manually some times for updating all or if I can stay Ok with the current settings.
Satellite C55-B5100
I leave automatic update turned off on all our computers also. But you do need to apply those considered Critical or Important by Microsoft. They protect against security breaches.
Microsoft releases most updates on the second Tuesday of each month. I wait a week or so for possible bugs to be ironed out and then apply those labelled as above.
I recommend you never update device drivers this way. Get those from Toshiba.
-Jerry

My GS30 life with not 1, but 2 docking stations.

Recently I purchased an MS30 with included docking station, plus a spare docking station, plus GTX 760 + GTX 970 graphics cards.
Reason being, I wanted a superlightweight PC for work with plenty of grunt, that I could use at work and home without having to use 2 seperate machines.
At work I have the unit with the GTX760 with dual screen plus various accessories, and at home the GTX970 single large screen plus accessories.
This system works pretty great, really. There is a slight pause of a few extra seconds on boot when you first connect the main notebook into a dock after it running on the other one, as it has to essentially 'reinstall' the new video card, even though it's been plugged into that dock before. Other than that, everything works flawlessly.
A couple of notes for those considering buying a GS30, from a bit over a month and a half of using it for 8 hours a day at work then 2-4 hours at home :
- Lots of reviews say the setup is noisy. Out of the box, it is. But you can chop the noise a massive amount by opening the docking station, and looking for a little switch with LOW-MED-HIGH written above it. It's the fan speed controller, and by default it's on HIGH. Switch it to LOW, and in all but the most heavy overclocked load times the unit will be no noisier than any other home desktop machine or even many notebooks.
- Some complaints in reviews I read mentioned that the inbuilt screen doesn't work when it's docked. This was true, as docking disabled the inbuilt Iris Pro video - however I applied the latest BIOS update v105 which apparently removes that limitation, and it now allows you to use both external monitors and the internal screen when docked. Only complication I've found so far is f.lux doesn't like the dual simultaneous video cards and flickers like mad when it's loaded.
- Lots of people have said re the GS30 that it's expensive for the performance you get, compared to buying a seperate laptop and desktop. Maybe they're right, but there's something very handy about just having to worry about 1 PC no matter where you are. Plus the boss paid for it
- MSI - Please add the option to disable the front light strips on both the laptop and the dock! The laptop light pulses in sleep mode, so obviously it's controllable and not hardwired to always be on.
- Overall, extremely pleased. When I'm at home I can game on a nice 27" screen, I can then undock my notebook and carry on working on the couch on an ultralight notebook while watching a TV show with my wife, and then plug it in at work and do some extremely intensive calculations - all without the GS30 breaking a sweat.

Quote from: blackrazornz on 29-April-15, 13:23:59
- Some complaints in reviews I read mentioned that the inbuilt screen doesn't work when it's docked. This was true, as docking disabled the inbuilt Iris Pro video - however I applied the latest BIOS update v105 which apparently removes that limitation, and it now allows you to use both external monitors and the internal screen when docked. Only complication I've found so far is f.lux doesn't like the dual simultaneous video cards and flickers like mad when it's loaded.
Looks like I jumped the gun on this one. While the screen worked on the dock for 1 or 2 boots, now it either totally fails to initialise and causes boot issues, or it activates and by doing so disables the video output via the external monitor. Highly annoying. And only problematic since v105.
See https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=255363.0 for further detail.

To those considering CS5

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