Yamaha Clavinova to Logic Studio... can it be pure n simple?

Question

I play a Yamaha Clavinova CV409 - which is great for spontaneously writing tunes.
I am running a MBP with Logic Studio (pre-latest), but I am not so familiar with this app yet.
Yes, I can hook them up via USB and get them crudely talking to each other. So what's my beef?
Well.... after writing a tune on the Clav, it would be nice to be able to import this with full integrity into Logic Studio, edit in the same channel format etc. and play it back seamlessly on the Clav, with no messing around.
The important bit is to change something on Logic and then export it back to the Clav and get it to play faithfully as though it had never left the Clav....
Has anyone out there had a similar challenge trying to keep life simple? Can't be too hard I presume...
As always, a few tips can save hours of time and frustration. So thanks in advance!

Answer 1

Hey Pete - Have you made any progress yet?
I've done some more experimenting.. And it's getting better..
I can now record Tyros performance into Logic - and then play the song from Logic back to Tyros, with out using Tyros sequencer. I recorded Tyros song (created there first) into synced Logic. Make sure the instrument track you are recording into does not echo back to your Yamaha. I just recorded it into a muted EVP electric piano.
Next create your 16 external midi instruments. Then use Spit/de-mix command by channel (under region). This will give you 16 midi tracks. Some may not have any information in them other than an 'initiate' command consisting of setting release and sustain time.
You may end up with MIDI channel one containing note data and sys-ex commands. The sys-ex commands in my event list are notated as going to channel 67. I believe sys-ex is meant to go to the device so the channel it is on, is not really relevent. I seperated this from midi channel 1 (which had part of my right hand playing). And I put it on a Tyros midi channel ALL.
Normally when you play an arranger keyboard, you are constantly changing registrations, pushing buttons, changing volumes, etc. Individual midi channels are receiving new program patches, you switch between variations, so that the individual parts alter, to create more interest etc.
Then I experimented with playing, along with all 16 midi tracks and muting it. The sys-ex track spits out quite a bit of data. When the sysex data is muted, song still plays pretty well. When I muted sys-ex track. Song still played except Intro/Variation/Ending sections didn't change.
So I deduce that all this sys-ex data is mainly driving the song section of Tyros. When you change from Intro/Var/Ending. Tyros then puts out program changes, volume, filter, controller data. But that is output to the desired MIDI channel and recorded into that particular midi track.. From then on it is on individual MIDI channel, and it doesn't matter that song sections change.
Normally when you play an arranger keyboard, the instrument itself scans the left hand keyboard and figures out what chords you wish to use.. The Tyros (and clavinola I suspect too) has seven different fingering systems. I am currently playing with "AI Fingering". This is a type of shorthand so you don't have to use full conventional chords as a normal keyboard player does. This frees your left hand up for hitting various registrations, and buttons on keyboard while playing.
So in short muting the sys-ex channel, really didn't make much difference in playback other than Tyros front panel changing lit buttons.
There are several issues of individual tracks, not selecting designated program changes, whether or not sys-ex track is playing.. The Tyros has what's called 'Multi Pad Control'. These are four buttons that you can assigning a instrument and a small performance. These might be some percussion parts, harp arpeggios, acoustic guitar finger picking etc. Most of these will derive their notes, from the left hand chords you play.
While you are working on Tyros sequencer these are refered to as 'multi pad' track. It is one track with 4 different pads. Once song is recorded into Tyros sequencer, they come up as MIDI channels 5 - 8. Likewise when recording in Tyros, you have a "style" part which consists of two drum rhythm tracks, a bass part, two chord tracks (either guitarlike, or keyboard), a pad track (strings, choir) and two phrase tracks (horn riffs, guitar riffs). This style is what gives the arranger KBD it's power. These tracks are generated according to what your left hand is holding down. When these are generated they end up being recorded on MIDI tracks 9- 16.
Once they are in the Tyros sequencer they are now longer a style, but part of the song. In the Tyros
you start with 16 channels, 9 - 16 I described above. 1 - 8 are song, style, mpad, mic, left hand, and Right 1,2,3. Once you record a song these parts are then output MIDI channels 1 - 16 like a tradional DAW. I am not sure if Clavinola works in same manner - I would suspect it does.
Once I recorded Tyros performance into Logic and split by midi channel, I could display it in the score. This gives you a great overview into what the Keyboard is really doing. I could look at event list make subtle changes, fix some bum notes I hit. You can edit these in Tyros event list, but it is cumbersome to say the least. I could adjust volumes, filter brightness, etc.. You can see everything Tyros is doing from the event.. Quite impressive.
Program changes are still puzzling me. Tyros uses MSB/LSB and Program change to call up voices. I need to find a data list of Yamaha's MSB/LSB to figure out the exact program in each bank. On the Logic event list program 80 will be a 'square wave' but once you are in a different bank, of course it ISN'T, but it is still described as that.
There is a online data list PDF manual, that lists the banks, with programs, but I don't see a relationship between the MSB/LSB bank number that Yamaha uses and the MSB/LSB numbers in Logic's event list for a particular instrument. They don't co-incide. There is also an issue, that some data gets sent on same clock count.
event time 1.1.1. MSB, PRG
event time 1.1.2 LSB
It is my understanding that MSB and LSB must be sent BEFORE PRG, otherwise you get wrong voice. I'm not sure why, (PPQ differences between Tyros and Logic seq) but you need to go manually in, and move the PRG event to be AFTER the LSB event.
So once we figure out the scheme that Yamaha uses for MSB/LSB banks, we should be able to duplicate Logic's performance to sound the exact same as the Tyros. This aspect is over my head, I haven't been able to figure it out.
(HINT - Erick any one else with more tech experience - perhaps you could glance at this and make sense of Yamaha's MSB/LSB and Logic's MSB/LSB. This is the link to Tyros data list. Mike you'll have to find Clavinola's data list, but I'm sure interpretation would be the same for both instruments even if banks of data are different (I'm sure they would be too)
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/port/tyros3en_dlv10c.pdf
Another issue I noticed is. Some of the performances in Tyros sound great. When you export the individual tracks to Logic and play from there it is not the same.. Tyros has filters and effects on individual tracks. and an overall compressor. EQ. Of course pulling each track individually alters how the compressor is going to react. So Tyros playing up too 16 tracks live sounds better than when you export each one individually.
Much as I love being a control freak, I'm tempted to record the Tyros "live two track" because most of the time is sounds so good. Getting the individual tracks into Logic and tweaking them, (little less filter here for one section, more volume there etc) would be the best of both worlds. And if there was a need to remix the song later. You could call up the file and quickly make a change.