Aperture 2 and White Balance Tint

Hello
Has anyone else noticed the huge colour shift when making a White Balance Tint adjustment with AP2 on a new image?
When I make an incremental (1 point) Tint adjustment for the first time on a new image the colour changes dramatically (similar to making a 20 point tint adjustment in one go). Hitting the Reset button and then making further incremental WB adjustments eliminates the problem - and everything is back to normal.
This is happening on both my Nikon D3 and Canon 1DmkIII images, so, I don't think it's a camera specific problem.
Anyone else?

I am having the same issue. Clicking in the value box for Temp or Tint causes a big shift. Using the Temp slider causes the image to go green quite a bit. The eye dropper is not much better. It routinely goes warm by a few thousand degrees or gets a green tint.
I called Apple and walked the tech through the issue and he was able to duplicate it and confirmed it is a bug. It is driving me crazy as I am spending way to much time fussing with white balance.

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i don't know what your canon is like, but the D200 also has the ability to 'read' a white balance setting (probably from the same sort of calibration card that you're talking about... i've never tried one, but often want one). this calibrates the in-camera white balance setting based on the light you're shooting with. this again would hopefully get you close to correct without software post production (this is a theme for me: shoot correctly and then spend less time correcting).
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Does Aperture always apply white balance to RAW files?

Hi Aperture users,
I have been an Aperture user for many years. Aperture handles the white balance of my Canon XTi RAW files just as I want it to: it interprets the RAW data by applying the white balance selected at the time of the photo. I.e., when Aperture decodes the RAW file, it makes it look more-or-less like the in-camera JPG with respect to the white balance.
However, in the past several months, many well-known contributors of this forum have stated "RAW is RAW -- Aperture will not apply any camera settings." This statement was made in response to many "novice" questions about why a RAW photo in Aperture did not look anything like the JPG from the camera.
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Does everyone else agree that this exception to "RAW is RAW" is acceptable?
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Hi Nathan -- I was hoping someone much more informed than me would weigh in with some engineering truth. All I got on offer is the thin gruel of observation.
Mr Endo wrote:
So, my questions:
Does anyone have a camera to whose RAW files Aperture does not apply in-camera white balance settings?
Does everyone else agree that this exception to "RAW is RAW" is acceptable?
1. I don't. RAW is sensor data. Most cameras record the White Balance camera setting as a metadata tag attached to the RAW data (The WB has no effect at all on the captured data.) Most RAW converters use this setting as the default WB. Some RAW converters perform "colorimetric interpretation" -- they basically compare the data captured to a generic color space and assign a WB. (This is, I assume, the same thing a camera set to "Auto WB" does. My camera is superb at assigning a WB for any mixed scene; it's repeatably bad, though, whenever the actual scene is truly colored (meaning "away from average").) In both cases -- 1. using the attached-to-the-RAW-data WB, and 2. analyzing the captured data to intelligently predict the WB -- a WB is applied to the RAW data. It has to be, in order to produce an image from the data.
2. The problem here isn't that this is an exception -- it's that different people mean different things when they say "RAW". The RAW data is RAW data. As above, the WB setting has no effect on it. But the image derived from the data -- any image produced from the data -- much have a WB set (and, for human use, a tone-curve applied). Some people mistaken think that RAW is an image format, or that the image produced by the RAW converter is a "RAW" image. It is not. RAW data must be converted to an image format in order to be displayed as an image. The conversion must apply a WB.
I have found it useful (though perhaps mistaken) to conceive of my data-gathering to picture-making as following these steps:
. Capture a pattern of light. This is just data.
. Convert the data to an image. RAW conversion done by Aperture. (NB: the settings for this can be changed.)
. Adjust the image to my artistic satisfaction
. Convert the adjusted image to an image format file
. Publish the image-format file in one or two now standard forms: to be viewed on a computer monitor, or as a print.
I mention only because at some point I consciously added the "Convert data to image" step in order to better grasp the process. RAW data is RAW data -- but that step identifies an intermediate that many overlook. At that step the information recorded along with the RAW data and stored in the RAW file is applied to the RAW data.
To me, "RAW is RAW" is correct. "Aperture will not apply any camera settings," is wrong.
I am happy for any clarifications or corrections.

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I'm having some problems with both Aperture 1.1.2 and 1.5 importing RAW files from a Nikon D70 and a Canon G6. In both cases, Aperture is not reading the "as shot" white balance correctly.
With the G6, Aperture is always setting a fixed color temperature of 6016K, and a fixed tint of -15, regardless of the image in question. If I read the same image using Adobe Camera Raw, or Lightroom, then it I get the white balance value as set in the camera.
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Obviously I can change all of the values manually, but it's very time consuming, and in most cases the in-camera value is pretty close to what I need, so I'd much prefer Aperture to use it.
In any case, I'm worried about the discrepancy between Aperture and Camera Raw on something so basic.
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In any case, I'm worried about the discrepancy
between Aperture and Camera Raw on something so
basic.
Sorry I can't help you directly with Aperture as I haven't bought it - yet. However, re-the above quote, I'd just mention that the interpretation of colour temperature values is not quite as simple as it might seem. Even more so when you bear in mind that RAW converters from 3rd parties like Adobe or Apple are not based on the RAW conversion engine produced by the camera manufacturer - in effect they have to guess/estimate what the temp/tint values in the RAW file actually mean...
Some time back I made a series of tests using 3 Canon cameras, with ACR, Capture One & the Canon RAW converter. Each produced noticeably different results, and C1 & ACR showed quite different temp/tint values. (The Canon software only showed 'As Shot' - no values). The differences were consistent between shots from each camera (using WB values input or AWB) - but they weren't consistent from one camera to another. Which program produced the best result depended very much on the Camera/Subject/Personal taste...
Hope someone can help with Aperture specific info, I'm sure there must be a way of making camera specific adjustments to the RAW conversions...

HELP White Balance Tint Shift

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I think I may have answered my own questions. It looks like Aperture 3 provided it's own presets for White Balance and it imported the one's I created in Aperture 2, but put them under a second White Balance flyout. That explains mystery number one.
Regarding the ability to see the values included in the preset, they used to show up in the edit window. Now it looks like the only way to see them is to select them and see the settings they apply in the Adjustments pane.
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When Aperture imports JPEGs it offers the same white balance options as it does for RAW files.
My understandiing from using Lightroom which does not use temperature in it's white balance Develop module for JPEGs, is that there is no data associated with a JPEG that tells the program where to start with white balance.
I'm curious as to what assumptions Aperture makes with regard to white balance when importing JPEGs and what goes on in the background as you change the temperature with a JPEG.
Thank you.

Aperture assigns a temperature of 5000k to all jpg and tif files.
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White Balance Tint Limit When Processing Raw Files

Hi guys, following some recent suggestions I've got hold of some Welding glass to use as an ND filter on my Fuji HS20. It arrived today and works a treat.
I do however now have a new issue that this has caused. I've set a custom white balance on the camera to counter act the tint from the glass. This now produces the correct colour on my jpg photo's however the RAW files have the wrong colour tint.
When I open them in photoshop elements 11 I get the CAMERA RAW application. The white balance is set to 'AS SHOT' however the Tint is at +150. I'm guessing my problem is that the tint needs to be more than +150 and CAMERA RAW is limiting it.
Does this mean I am now limited to using JPG's when I use this glass as an ND filter, or is there a way I can get rid of this limit to the tint on the white balance

filippodallosso wrote:
I have exactly the same problem. The reply is to your question is not what you were asking, isnt it?
The point is that we CAN NOT adjust the white balance as suggested, because the sliders are already at their maximum value when we open the photo in camera raw. We'd need to further increase the tint value (as the photo looks green) but it is by default at 150, so we cannot increase it further.
One way to overcome the limitation of the tint/temp sliders is to save an intermediate tiff or psd file. You can open it in ACR and apply the same maximal slider correction.
For the same purpose, instead of saving an intermediate file, I opened the raw file in the editor. From there, I used the Editinacr script in Elements+ to reopen the layer in ACR (shift f3 and script selection). Same corrections and back as a new layer in the editor. I could repeat the process several times to get a very powerful correction without intermediate files.

Sunrise/Sunset and White Balance

I have a question about overriding Automatic White Balance when photographing sunrises and sunsets. A few days ago, I got my first DSLR, an EOS 5D Mk III. I know the ISO triangle after shooting film on my Canon A-1 that I bought 34 years ago, which still works). However, this white balance thing is a fourth dimension. Films are balanced for daylight and the ISO is also dictated. For photographing a sunrise or sunset, to me, it makes sense to set the white balance to 5200 Kelvin (daylight). I got one response from a camera club member who said his photos were all in the 5000 range. Others have said "Shoot in RAW and fix it in post processing". The second response of "Fix it later" just doesn't ring my bell. What about getting it right the first time? Should I set white balance to daylight or some other setting? I can always experiment with changing white balance; after all, I'm not wasting film. Below are a series of sunrises that I took using Kodak Portra 400, -2/3 stop, on my Canon A-1. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ralphhightower/sets/72157633079358301/ Thanks, Ralph
Solved!
Go to Solution.

It might be helpful to just think of the digital camera's white balance capabilities as a built-in and very complete set of color conversion and color correction filters, such as we used to use with film. Now, for your convenience, all those filters are right there, inside the camera.... much easier to carry around and use!
If shooting during Golden Hours, the camera's Automatic White Balance (AWB) can tend to overcorrect and remove some of the lovely golden nature of the light. One solution is as others have recommended, to shoot RAW and make your adjustments later. This is no different from making the adjustments in-camera, at the time of exposure, and can make for much greater control and precision. It's not really a "fix it later" thing... It is more a matter of doing fine-tuning and optimizing the image (more on this below). RAW simply retains all the data from the original capture and is a good thing to use, anyway.
All digital cameras essentially capture a TIFF image file with a lot of proprietary data attached and an embedded "preview/review" JPEG... that's what the RAW file is. If you make JPEGs in-camera, a lot of data is thrown away, following the directions laid out by the settings in the camera. If, instead, you save the entire RAW file, you can change those directions later in post-processing... or just make a JPEG from the image "as shot", using the exact same set of instructions as were set in the camera at the time of exposure. One of the beauties of RAW is that so long as you store the original image file, you can always go back and re-process it another way, if you wish. This is particularly helpful when new to digital and uncertain about your settings. Something you might want to do is shoot RAW+JPEG initially. That way you have both the full data stored, along with the potential to make changes if you wish, plus the JPEG produced according to your camera settings. The JPEG can serve as a post-processing learning tool, using it as a point of comparison with your own RAW file conversions.... and as feedback about your camera settings. (Don't trust the image display on the camera's LCD screen... it's not calibrated and is too subject to ambient light variations. The histogram display is generally more informative, but even that is subject to the camera's settings, since it's done from the embedded JPEG and not directly from the full RAW file.)
But, I agree, it's also good to "get it right the first time". Or at least come as close as possible.
The most ideal way to do that would be to set a Custom White Balance for every shot. Use a standardized target, bathed in the same light as your subject/scene, and take a shot of it... then tell the camera to use that as reference. However, it's just not practical to do that.
Nor is it a good idea to set one particular color temp and use it for everything (i know photogs who do that and have had to work with their images.... it makes for a lot of extra work!)
Thus there are all the "presets" you can choose among, looking for one that's most appropriate for your particular situation... And there is AWB, which allows the camera to try to choose for you. Outdoors in daylight I've found Canon AWB to be pretty darned good. Shots in the shade can be a little overly cool. And indoor shots with tungsten or other artifical light are when a Custom WB is most likely to be needed.... especially with weird, uncalibrated lighting such as sodium vapor and mercury vapor lamps.
To set an accurate Custom WB, get yourself a gray card or similar (I use Lastolite EZ Balance targets, which are sort of like a foldable/flexible gray card). This also can be helpful arriving at an accurately metered exposures. Something else I use in certain circumstances are Warm Cards... these have slight tints that "fool" the camera into slightly tinting the image.... a light blue/cyan target will cause the camera to render a slightly warm color balance. Warm Cards would be particularly helpful shooting during the Golden Hours, if wanting to retain some of the warmth of the light at those times of day. It's more accurate doing this than simply manually setting a particular color temp, although that's possible too.
And, yes, you should spend some time getting to know how your camera handles color. Each model can be a bit different. You'd do well to shoot a bunch of test shots with AWB, Custom WB and, if you wish, the various presets... to see how they perform.
Of course, you don't always have time to think about or make settings... sometimes to catch fleeting light you have to run to catch an image quickly, shoot RAW and "fix it later" in post-processing!
If you haven't already done so, you might want to calibrate your computer monitor. As concerned as you are about rendering accurate color or manipulating it the way you want it, in case you are unaware of it... your computer monitor is lying to you. All computer monitors are different, none are really very accurate and virtually all are way too bright. If you make prints using an uncalibrated monitor, you will usually find them coming out too dark. This is because an overly bright monitor causes you to adjust the image too dark. If you don't already have them, you might want to get computer calibration software and hardware and use them regularly (about once every month or two, usually... monitors change over time and with use).
The way the calibration device works is by first running a test on your particular monitor, and then providing a profile that the computer will use when rendering images on the display. Some of the more sophisticated calibration suites can also be used to develop printing profiles (unique for each ink/paper/printer combination), projectors and other viewing devices. (I use a Datacolor Spyder, one of several different calibration devices/softwares available).
Hope this helps!
Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & PRINTROOM

IPhoto auto-enhance and white balance

Good morning everyone,
i am askin' your help to understand if what i have noticed is a bug or not..
What i am experiencing is some kind of weird behaviour about the enhance function of iPhoto 9.3.2 working over D7000 NEF (RAW) files.
When using that routine, whatever picture i use, it gets automatically overboosted in a very warm white balance and a green tint,
obviously not what i was expecting to obtain..
The weird thing is that this behaviour happens only with the pictures i have imported today, while preceeding (29/07/2012) ones work like a charm..
Just in case you ask it, no i don't have update any firmware meanwhile
Is there any hint/tips/tricks you would suggest me?
Thanks in advance
EC

enrico,
I'm noticing something similar with my Canon RAW files... When I do a cut/paste adjustment, the pic that gets the pasted adjustment gets a decidedly greenish tint. Experimentation shows that the tint shifts +22 units. Intersting, in that the shift does not show up on the tint slider, but shows up on the histogram...
I didn't notice any problem like this until yesterday, and after reading your post, wonder if any software updates performed within the past week shifted something?
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I submitted a bug report to Apple.
Bob

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