Aperture color space / working space

Something I have been wondering for some time now, and didn't find a real answer so far: what is Aperture's internal color space? Is it ProPhoto RGB? Does Aperture know about the camera's color space (i.e. how does it map my RAW data to its internal color space)?
What I noticed is that images are converted to AdobeRGB before sending them to Photoshop for editing; unless this is Apertures working space (which I hope it is not), it would make sense to change that to the working space. One could work around that by first exporting a TIFF in the appropriate color space, editing that and then reimporting it to Aperture, but this sounds rather unpracticable. And again, one should know what exactly the internal working space is, to avoid conversion losses.
I'm grateful for any suggestions,
Bernhard

I don't know that there is a background color space. As I said, if someone is working with a point and shoot digital camera vs. a Canon 1Ds Mark II, the range color the chip can capture is likely to be very different. In that case Aperture make work differently for each camera. I don't really know.
I think your question touches on the ongoing debate (it's been years now on Photo Forums) as to whether or not you can really profile a digital camera. Some say yes, some say no. The ones who say yes are the ones selling profiling software and charts. Capture One allows for custom input profiles. The ones saying no are promoting software that doesn't allow for custom input profiles (ACR, Aperture, any camera manufacturer's software). I think the theory on the "no" side is that with a camera the range of color is limitless therefor there is no way to really profile it. This is as opposed to something like a scanner that has a limited amount of color it can see and needs to reproduce.
I know that ACR has two types of general guides within it (one for daylight, one for tungsten) for each camera and then interpolates between the two. I say "guides" because I don't know if they are really termed to be profiles or if another name is more appropriate.

Similar Messages

Aperture, Color Space, Printing, Oh My!

Any help with these is greatly appreciated. I've read countless articles and forums, only to be left with these questions because no one can answer them.
1) In RAW only if I want to print with my B9180 and process in Aperture, does the in-camera color space settings even matter? I do use soft-proofing in Aperture for the HP papers I use. Everything I read about it says Adobe RGB in-camera should be used when making your own prints at home, but they are always referring to printing from within Photoshop, but I don't use PS, so I'm confused about this with Aperture.
2) Now, what if I shot JPGs? Will in-camera color space matter in this same scenario (Aperture, B9180 printing at home)?
3) Using Aperture in a JPG workflow, does the application see the in-camera color space I selected or does Aperture have its own color space? Or is it selected based on the soft-proofing profile I use?

Henrik,
That's an awful lot of words but none of it gets at the day to day use of the program or really provides and answer for the original poster of the thread.
Yes, of course a soft proof is a simulation. That's why it's a soft proof. It's also never going to match the output exactly. It can't.
Strip away all the science under the hood as it relates to soft-proofing in Aperture (part of Jerry's question #3) and the questions are:
What is this?
When should I use it?
How do I use it?
What? It's a way of getting a sense of how your image will look when output. It requires that you are working on a calibrated monitor and you need an output profile in order to use it. It will never match your output 100%. It cannot due to screen vs. paper, how the color on each is created, gamut and contrast of each, etc.
When? In Aperture you should work on your image with "Onscreen Proofing" turned off. Why? because you should work your images as best possible without initial regard for the output. It may end up being output for different uses in the future (screen, inkjet print, offset printed, etc.) You can use Aperture's "Onscreen Proofing" if you want get a sense of how your image will look when output. You don't have to, just like you don't have to in Photoshop. If all you are doing is outputting to an in-house inkjet printer you could just make a test print via color managed printing, see how it looks, and then adjust as needed. But if you want to get sense of what's what and whether you need to make any changes before you hit "print" then you can do the soft proof. The soft-proof would also be helpful heading off issues if you are not printing in-house (again, assuming you have a correct output profile.)
How? In Aperture to get a sense of how the output will be you need to select your output profile in View>Proofing Profile and then turn on Onscreen Proofing, View>Onscreen Proofing. Now, you can turn on and off the proofing feature to get a sense of how the image will be reproduced. If your image is not soft-proofing as you expected or want you can create a duplicate of the image file. Then alter that to bring the image as close as possible to the feel of the non-proofed image. This is similar to Photoshop where you can "Proof Setup" and the duplicate your image and/or create additional image layers to bring the image more in line with your intention or expectation.
Jerry - FWIW, I know you posted about an HP printer in another thread. See the comments here,
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2007/02/13/insideaperturepodcast-9.html . There seem to be some HP printer based issues with regard to Onscreen proofing. This link also has a podcast with Joe Schorr, Apple's Senior Product Manager for Aperture, specifically about color management and onscreen proofing in Aperture.
Jon Roemer
site: http://www.jonroemer.com/
blog: http://jonroemer.typepad.com/jon_roemer/

Change Aperture previews color space from Adobe98 to sRgb

Hi,
I'd like to change the default color space for the jpg previews that Aperture generates from the masters of my library.
I now have all my jpegs saved as Adobe98 but it's important for me to have them saved as sRGB because when third party apps and devices go to read them, they can't reproduce the right colors if they find the wrong color profile.
Thanks in advance for your help!

I don't know how many different ways to say that you cannot change the color space for previews. The files themselves have specific image data that corresponds to a specific color profile that is Adobe 1998 you cannot change the way Aperture generates these. Changing your system has nothing to do with it.
As for work-flow - If you need this to work and it doesn't then it never has so I really don't see how it is changing your work-flow that never existed?
RB
Ps. External devices like projectors work fine as long as your presentation software respects the source profile and has an output device profile - what kind of "device" are you using?
Message was edited by: rwboyer

Color space comparison in PS versus Aperture 3

Photoshop uses ECI-RGB color space in its RAW conversion process. What color space does Aperture 3 employ? Are we comparing Apples to Apples with initial RAW processing with these systems?
Thanks

From Aperture: Color and gamma settings for print and web
Setting your colorspace in Aperture
In contrast with Adobe Photoshop, you don't have to set your "workspace." Instead, Aperture will always work in a wide gamut, except for when you apply Onscreen Proofing, which shows you how your work should look in final output. When you know your project is bound primarily for one medium, such as RA-4, it's a good idea to leave Onscreen Proofing on all the time while editing, which would give you the equivalent effect of setting your workspace.
Also see this thread: How can I set my work space to sRGB or aRGB & let Aperture handle color mgt

Setting up color space between Aperture, Photoshop and my Epson 3880

Hi. I use Aperture to do quick fixes and Photoshop for more complex edits and printing. I have setup my export preference in Aperture to the external editor as 8 bit ProPhoto RGB and in Photoshop my color space as Prophoto RGB. I use mainly Nikon RAW files. (Epson suggests using ProPhoto RGB to get the most out of the ink). Does all this make sense? As a sort of related question I don't suppose there is a way to export RAW directly from Aperture to Photoshop using the mouse right click and edit with Photoshop option..

Yes, your setup makes sense, but the fact you're asking implies that you don't know much about colormanagement. Thus although this part of your workflow makes sense, it might well be that you're making error in the printing process for example. Get yourself a copy of the 'Real world colormanagement' by Bruce Fraser, to teach yourself all about it. Furthermore, when working in ProPhoto RGB, I'd suggest working in 16-bit instead of 8-bit, to reduce possible banding in color gradients.
By export RAW directly to Photoshop, I believe that you mean opening the RAW-file in Camera RAW? No, there is no way of doing that directly, though Aperture does have an export master option, allowing you to place a copy of the original RAW-file anywhere on your hard drive.

Aperture's internal Color Space?

Does anyone have any information about Aperture's internal color space?

The thread you linked to starts of with the same link I had already posted. Some people in that thread say they think it uses ProPhoto but without having any evidence to back up that claim.
As I also wrote in that thread, if you import ProPhoto tiffs into Aperture and do any kind of modification and then export again (using ProPhoto) you get something that is clipped to Adobe RGB. That's a pretty clear indicator that Aperture uses Adobe RGB internally.
Mies van der Robot wrote:
However, your display system is going to clip everything to AdobeRGB or smaller (depending on the gamut of your display),
That is most likely correct but I have not found any authoritative source for this (the question being whether the conversion from an image color space to the monitor color space is done via relative colorimetric or something else).
and Aperture doesn't have the degree of sophistication for working out-of-gamut that Photoshop does, so as a rule of thumb it probably doesn't hurt to think of the internal space as equivalent to that of your display.
Aperture cannot deal properly with images that have a larger gamut than its internal color space (ie, ProPhoto) but it can easily deal with Adobe RGB files which easily can have a larger gamut than your monitor (you might not be able to see what you are doing, but the same problem exists in Photoshop).

Asking the Bridge Team: Bridge "working color space" setting when one does not have the Suite?

Common sense tells me there is really no such thing as a
"working color space" in Bridge, because
Bridge is not an image editor, just a browser
Therefore, this may turn out to be a purely academic question; but that doesn't keep my curiosity from forcing me to ask it anyway. ;)
Is there a way to set the Bridge
"color settings" when one does not have the suite?
The only Adobe program I keep up to date is Photoshop, so I've never had the suite. My version of Photoshop is 11 (CS4) and I run updated
(not upgraded) versions of Adobe Acrobat 7.x, Illustrator 10.x and InDesign 2.x. Consequently, the Synchronize color settings command is not available to me.
It seems to me that Bridge is behaving like a proper color-managed browser (e.g. Firefox with color management enabled), in that it displays tagged image files correctly and assumes sRGB for untagged image files. This normally works fine.
But what if I wanted Bridge to assume my
Photoshop color working space for untagged images
so that it behaves the same as Photoshop? I'm just curious, as I deal with a minuscule, practically negligible amount of untagged files.
My reason for bringing it up now is that I don't recall this being explicitly mentioned in forum replies when users inquire about color settings in Bridge. A recent post regarding Version Cue in the Photoshop Macintosh forum got me thinking about this. Just wanting to make sure that I'm right in my assumption that
there is really no such thing as a
"working color space" in Bridge, because Bridge is not an image editor, just a browser.
Thanks in advance.

Hi Ramón,
Thanks for sharing the outcome of your tests. However, I may have found a bug/exception to Bridge's colour management policy!
It appears that CMYK EPS photoshop files are not colour managed in Adobe Bridge, even if they contain an embedded ICC profile.
I've tried every combination in the EPS 'Save As' dialogue box, so it doesn't seem to be an issue with file encoding. Also, Bridge doesn't rely on the low-res preview that is held within the EPS itself.
My guess is that Bridge is previewing the CMYK EPS with a Bridge-generated RGB image, but it's being displayed as monitor RGB (assigned) rather than colour managed (converted to monitor RGB). For most users the difference will be barely perceptible, but the problem became very noticeable when using Bridge to preview Newsprint CMYK images on a wide-gamut monitor (images that should have appeared muted really leapt off the screen!).
How do I report this to the Colour Police at Adobe?!?

PSE 10 as external editor for Aperture 3 - 8-bit TIFF and what color space?

Hi all,
I'm taking the plunge and trying PSE 10 as my external editor for Aperture 3. I understand that I need to export as 8-bit TIFF files (not 16) because PSE can't do certain things with 16-bit files. Is that right? Should I specify a color space in Aperture or leave it as "no profile selected"? (I don't know much about color spaces; I'm not a pro.) I print on an Epson RX580 Stylus Photo printer, if that matters.
I'll be grateful for any help and advice. Thanks.

Can I suggest you buy Philip Andrews book, Advanced Photoshop Elements 10. he explains colour spaces and much much more very clearly and exactly what can be done with 16 bit files and what you then have to change to 8 bit to accomplish. He's written basic and advanced guides for Elements since day one. Usually available from Amazon for under £20.

CoordinateMapper is not working properly when converting Depth into Camera then into Color Space

Hello everyone,
I am trying to map depth point to color space in the defined portion of the depth frame data in my Kinect v2. I am using CoordinateMapper for conversion between various spaces.
Below is the snippet of the code-
private void KinectMultiSourceFrameArrived(object sender, MultiSourceFrameArrivedEventArgs e)
var reference = e.FrameReference.AcquireFrame();
ColorFrame ColorFrame = reference.ColorFrameReference.AcquireFrame();
DepthFrame DepthFrame = reference.DepthFrameReference.AcquireFrame();
if (ColorFrame != null && DepthFrame != null)//Do not proceed, if any frame is expired
ColorFrame.CopyConvertedFrameDataToArray(ColorFramePixels, ColorImageFormat.Bgra);
Image<Bgra, byte> ColorFrameImage = GetBgraImageFromBytes(colorFrameWidth, colorFrameHeight, colorFramePixels);
DepthFrame.CopyFrameDataToArray(DepthFrameData);
CoordinateMapper.MapColorFrameToDepthSpace(DepthFrameData, DepthSpacePoints);
for (int index = 0; index < DepthFrameData.Length; index++)
ushort depth = DepthFrameData[index];// Get the depth for current pixel
if (depth > depthMinReliableDistance && depth < depthMaxReliableDistance)//Ignore outside points
CameraSpacePoint point = CoordinateMapper.MapDepthPointToCameraSpace(DepthSpacePoints[i], depth);
//Some processing on CameraSpacePoint are cropped while putting the code here
ColorSpacePoint colorSpacePoint = CoordinateMapper.MapCameraPointToColorSpace(point);
DrawMarkInImage(ColorFrameImage, colorSpacePoint);
ColorImgBox.Image = ColorFrameImage;// See the image
if (ColorFrame != null) ColorFrame.Dispose();
if (DepthFrame != null) DepthFrame.Dispose();
//Convert the bytes into image using EmguCV
Image<Bgra, byte> GetBgraImageFromBytes(int Width, int Height, byte[] Pixels)
Image<Bgra, byte> Image = new Image<Bgra, byte>(Width, Height);
Image.Bytes = Pixels;
return Image
//Draw circle (Just for debugging purpose)
void DrawMarkInImage(Image<Bgra, byte> ColorFrameImage, ColorSpacePoint ColorSpacePoint)
Point CircleCenter = new Point((int)ColorSpacePoint.X, (int)ColorSpacePoint.Y)
ColorFrameImage.Draw(new CircleF(CircleCenter, 2), new Bgra(0, 255, 255, 255), 1);
However, when I tried to converting the depth directly to color space, it works well. But since I am doing processing over CameraSpacePoint, I need to make above working.
Somebody please tell me where is the error and how to resolve it.

Hi Carmine,
I apologize for this confusion. I am trying to process only a defined portion in the depth frame, which resides between MinReliableDistance and MaxReliableDistance. For the testing purpose, I kept my Kinect v2 in the table facing towards the floor at the
height of 1 meter from the floor. Some objects are kept in the floor. Based on the depth information, I just want to mark their top face.
I tried following two methods-
Method1: First compare the depth and ignore the undesired depth points. Then find out CameraSpacePoint of this depth point. Do the processing, whatever is needed. Now convert this CameraSpacePoint into ColorSpacePoint and draw a mark on this point in the
color image. Below is the code snippet-
CoordinateMapper.MapColorFrameToDepthSpace(DepthFrameData, DepthSpacePoints);
for (int DepthIndex = 0; DepthIndex < DepthFrameData.Length; ++DepthIndex)
ushort Depth = DepthFrameData[depthIndex];// Get the depth for current pixel
if (Depth > depthMinReliableDistance && Depth < depthMaxReliableDistance)
CameraSpacePoint CameraSpacePoint = CoordinateMapper.MapDepthPointToCameraSpace(DepthSpacePoints[depthIndex], Depth);
//some of the code is removed while putting it here
ColorSpacePoint ColorSpacePoint = CoordinateMapper.MapCameraPointToColorSpace(CameraSpacePoint);
if ((ColorSpacePoint.X >= 0) && (ColorSpacePoint.X < ColorFrameWidth) && (ColorSpacePoint.Y >= 0) && (ColorSpacePoint.Y < ColorFrameHeight))
DrawMarkInImage(ColorFrameImage, ColorSpacePoint);
DisplayImage(ColorFrameImage);
MinReliableDistance is 676mm whereas MaxReliableDistance is 850mm. (Just for this setup)
The above code doesn't work. It is unable to find out the objects standing in the floor. Please see attached image and notice the yellow marks are not in correct locations.
Method 2: Just to check the setup, I tried this method but I can't go with this method further (Since I need the points in CameraSpace. In this method, I first check for valid depth point. Then corresponding color pixel is picked up from the ColorFramePixels
using ColorSpacePoint. Below is the snippet-
CoordinateMapper.MapDepthFrameToColorSpace(DepthFrameData, ColorSpacePoints);
Array.Clear(DisplayPixels, 0, DisplayPixels.Length); //Clear pixels to black
for (int DepthIndex = 0; DepthIndex < DepthFrameData.Length; ++DepthIndex)
ushort Depth = DepthFrameData[depthIndex];// Get the depth for current pixel
if (Depth > depthMinReliableDistance && Depth < depthMaxReliableDistance)
ColorSpacePoint Point = ColorSpacePoints[depthIndex];
int ColorX = (int)Math.Floor(Point.X + 0.5);
int ColorY = (int)Math.Floor(Point.Y + 0.5);
if ((ColorX >= 0) && (ColorX < ColorFrameWidth) && (ColorY >= 0) && (ColorY < ColorFrameHeight))
int ColorImageIndex = ((colorFrameWidth * ColorY) + ColorX) * BytesPerPixel;
int DepthPixel = DepthIndex * BytesPerPixel;
DisplayPixels[DepthPixel] = ColorFramePixels[ColorImageIndex];
DisplayPixels[DepthPixel + 1] = ColorFramePixels[ColorImageIndex + 1];
DisplayPixels[DepthPixel + 2] = ColorFramePixels[ColorImageIndex + 2];
DisplayPixels[DepthPixel + 3] = 255;
Image<Bgra, byte> DepthFrameImage = GetBgraImageFromBytes(DepthFrameWidth, DepthFrameHeight, DisplayPixels);
DisplayImage(DepthFrameImage);
Please see the attached output image. You can notice the internal pixels are picked from color fame and outside pixels are black as expected.
Output image of method 1. Notice the yellow marks are not in proper place. They should lie on the top face of objects
Output image of method 2. Notice the unwanted area and top face of the standing object are black (as expected)-
Hope is clears your doubt.

Color space-creating a book in My publisher-.when I look at the share book pre print the colors are all dulled out. I work in pro photo rgb in LR and PS -.My Pub is sRGB-.where is the problem?

Color space…creating a book in My publisher….when I look at the share book pre print the colors are all dulled out. I work in pro photo rgb in LR and PS ….My Pub is sRGB….where is the problem?

I finally got to my references. This had to do with "soft proofing" on screen in Photoshop.
So this may not help you at all. Re: Strange sRGB soft-proofing behavior So go ahead and leave that setting at Basic.
However there is a Color Management forum that you also go to and see if anyone has answers for your particular problem.
Here is the link: Color management
I hope they can help you out.
Gene

PS CS6 Smartobject - Changing color space not working

If I initially open a smartobject from ACR into PS CS6 using one color space, eg. sRGB, should it then be possible to click back into ACR and change color space to Adobe RGB ???
This is important to me, since working most of the time in sRGB, batch editing lot's of files (for timelapse-video, hence sRGB), but sometimes it may be nessecary to go back and use Adobe RGB to make a best possible print of one of the stills.
This is not working for me. I thought I should be able to do absolutely non-destructive editing when working with smartobjects from ACR, but this may seem to not be the case.
Ole

I understand now that a copy of the original RAW file is made when working with SO.
Still, when checking what color space I am working in (in PS CS6), after changing from sRGB to aRGB, PS still tells me I am working in sRGB!!
So what I am asking, going back from a SO in PS, into ACR, to change the color space, does not work.
Is there a workaround for this?
Or is it something I still do not understand here?

External editor color space with Aperture and PSE 10?

Hi all,
I'm finally setting up Aperture to export to Photoshop Elements (10). In the Aperture preferences, I'm asking it to export to PSE 10 as 16-bit TIFF files. What color space should I indicate (if any)? It's currently set to "no profile selected." I'm not a professional; just an enthusiast. I print on an Epson RX580 Photo Stylus printer, if that matters.
I've searched on this forum and elsewhere, but haven't found a simple answer to this. All suggestions gratefully accepted. Thanks!

Can I suggest you buy Philip Andrews book, Advanced Photoshop Elements 10. he explains colour spaces and much much more very clearly and exactly what can be done with 16 bit files and what you then have to change to 8 bit to accomplish. He's written basic and advanced guides for Elements since day one. Usually available from Amazon for under £20.

RGB Working Color SPace ....

I'm very confused with this stuff ...
I read that when we setup Photoshop we should set the working color space
rgb to Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB .... fine I understand this up to a point.
However what happend if the monitor can not display the color space ?
For example when I display the Color Picker on my external NEC monitor
everything always looks good but on my internal laptop monitor there is
banding in the Color Picker.
If I set the working color space to srgb then the banding disapears.
So just how should I set all this up ?

Michael,
rely on a calibrated precision monitor (not the laptop),
define all images by AdobeRGB and improve them by Levels,
Curves and Sharpening.
Check occasionally by Proof Colors / Gamut Warning
(using the monitor profile) whether the colors are out
of gamut for the monitor.
The monitor is probably not the final output device.
If the output device should be e.g. offset ISOCoated,
then check by Proof Colors / Gamut Warning whether the
colors are out of gamut for ISOCoated. If this should
be the case, then modify the RGB source until only small
parts of the image are out of gamut (yellow blossoms).
Otherwise larger parts might be affected by posterization
(blue sky).
Theoretically one can use 'desaturate by 20%', which should
show larger space colors mapped to the smaller space.
I don't use it, I'm preferring the gamut warning - recently
for a couple of landscape photos with very blue skies,
yellow blossoms and orange sunsets.
Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

How to select color space for PDF export in Aperture 3

If you're exporting a book layout as a PDF for printing by a third-party album company, you may need to specify sRGB as the color space for images in the PDF. That's OK if your book is composed of JPEGs that are already in the sRGB color space. But, if your images are RAW, Aperture will export them into PDF using the Adobe RGB color space by default. Sending aRGB images to an sRGB printer will result in flat, unsaturated colors, as I learned the hard way. Apple tech support was unable to tell me how to handle this, but I stumbled on the answer myself. Select the book in the Library pane. Select File > Print Book. In the resulting printer dialogue window, pull down the Color Profile menu (default: No Profile Selected) and select sRGB or whatever target color space you desire. Then, click the PDF button and select Save as PDF. Presto! Your PDF images will now be in the appropriate color space.

Hi again, here some updates.
the issue is still there.
From Aperture, I tried to export to PDF the single images, and they look good (no posterization).
Furthermore, I created a photo book from iPhoto with the same pictures, and exported it to PDF. It also looks fine.
Also opening/exporting to PDF from photoshop does not show any problem.
The problem occurs only if I try to print the book from Aperture (option "print book" -> "save as PDF"), or if I make a book preview before placing the order (I suppose it's the same action).
Is anybody aware of what exactly Aperture does in these particular cases?
Please consider that:
1. my monitor (iMac 24") is hardware calibrated
2. the source pictures are in RAW (so no color profile on them) and (just a couple) in TIFF (16bit, Adobe RGB). I also tried reimporting in the album jpg converted versions, with no better results.
3. OS and Aperture are updated to the latest versions.
This problem is blocking me from placing the order...
Someone could give some help here?
thanks in advance
marco

Photoshop and working color spaces

In how many color spaces Photoshop can work correctly?
Can only work with gamma 1.8 and 2.2 ones or even with linear or L* gamma color spaces?
It is enough that the working spaces has RGB=0 0 0 mapped to L*=0 and RGB 255 255 255 mapped to L*=100?
Thank you
Marco

I don't know where in the past I read that in Photoshop the curves, levels and so on work correctly only if the image encoding color space has: pure black (L*=0) mapped to 0 0 0, pure white (L*=100) mapped to 255 255 255, the gray axis effectively acromathic (a,b=0) and the gamma encoding is 1.8 or 2.2.
These are the reasons because (I read) in the working RGB color space is not advisable choosing the monitor color profile.
Thank you for your considerations
Marco

Aperture color space / working space

Similar Messages

Maybe you are looking for