Black point compensation for onscreen proofing

Hi there,
In Aperture, is there any way to turn Black point compensation on for onscreen proofing (i.e. not using the export procedure, where this actually is available)? This option is available in Photoshop, for example.

Stephan,
I'd like to print photos via the web, and therefore
want to export the photos as JPEGs. I just checked
the options in the export preset panel, and realised
that one can select "Black Point Compensation" as an
option for the export.
Does anyone have any experience with this setting?
It's a fairly reliable fix if your test prints come back with murky shadows.
Should one use it, if one doesn't know the printer in
use?
I don't know of a good way to optimize files for unknown printers. I'd recommend getting a profile for the printer/paper combo used by your lab and soft-proofing on your Mac. Have you calibrated your screen, etc.?
The soft proof will get you in the ballpark. Definitely order small (8x10 or so) test print before laying out long green for a poster-sized one.
Cheers,
Andreas

Similar Messages

Black Point Compensation for JPEG export?

Hiya,
I'd like to print photos via the web, and therefore want to export the photos as JPEGs. I just checked the options in the export preset panel, and realised that one can select "Black Point Compensation" as an option for the export.
Does anyone have any experience with this setting? Should one use it, if one doesn't know the printer in use?
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Regards,
Stephan

Stephan,
I'd like to print photos via the web, and therefore
want to export the photos as JPEGs. I just checked
the options in the export preset panel, and realised
that one can select "Black Point Compensation" as an
option for the export.
Does anyone have any experience with this setting?
It's a fairly reliable fix if your test prints come back with murky shadows.
Should one use it, if one doesn't know the printer in
use?
I don't know of a good way to optimize files for unknown printers. I'd recommend getting a profile for the printer/paper combo used by your lab and soft-proofing on your Mac. Have you calibrated your screen, etc.?
The soft proof will get you in the ballpark. Definitely order small (8x10 or so) test print before laying out long green for a poster-sized one.
Cheers,
Andreas

Adobe CMM Black Point Compensation

Hello list members,
I have been trying out the Adobe CMM in combination with Adobe Photoshop.
By testing the Black Point Compensation (BPC) preferences, I get strange
results on my PowerMac. This is not happening on an IntelMac for me.
The discussion started on the ColorSync users group and is still going on there,
so maybe others might report there too.
This is my testing basis (All done with ISOcoated to ISOuncoated, relative colorimetric):
(Abbr. Adobe Photoshop Convert to Profile BPC Setting: PS)
(Abbr. Adobe CMM preferences BPC setting: CMM)
PS CMM Expected Happening
On On BPC taking place OK
On Off BPC taking place NOT Ok, no BPC happening
Off On BPC taking place OK
Off Off NO BPC OK
Any feedbacks are welcomed.
Regards
Rolf Gierling

In rare cases using Black Point Compensation can cause unacceptable results and the effect is usually washed out detail in the very dark regions of the final image. In our experience this problem usually rears its ugly head with some RGB output profiles.
Adobe recommends, and we agree, that in almost all cases, Black Point Compensation should be on when dealing with CMYK files (doing
RGB to CMYK conversions or CMYK to CMYK conversions). In most cases, doing RGB to RGB conversions without Black Point Compensation will produce desirable prints. However, depending on the profile, doing a conversion from RGB to RGB with Black Point Compensation can produce
poor output with washed out blacks.
It appears that this problem with some RGB profiles is dependent
on the software that is used to generate the profile. Apparently there is a Black Tag feature in ICC profiles that in some cases can be used or unused depending on the software that actually creates the profile. For this reason, there is no hard and fast rule that says we should or should not use Black Point Compensation with RGB output. Our recommendation is to turn off Black Point Compensation with RGB output profiles or if possible, try a test with Black Point Compensation
on and off.
There is one other case where you may want to turn off Black Point Compensation. When you want to soft proof output for a printer that has a low dynamic range like newspaper, where the blacks are
usually not very dense. By turning off the Black Point Compensation, the soft proof is more accurate in predicating the effect of this low dynamic range. Black Point Compensation should be turned off
in the CMYK Set-Up. You can view full information for this problem source www.digitaldog.net/files/Black_Point_Compensation.pdf
Sincerely, Shair

Black point compensation

I have a problem with Black Point Compensation in the print dialog when printing my book pages. It almost seems that the on/off toggle is reversed. I usually have BPC on when printing in Photoshop and I can preview its effect there. I use Relative Colorimetric rendering and having BPC on is invariably better. When previewing the effect in Aperture's print dialog window on the other hand I seem to pretty much get the reverse of what I see in the Photoshop preview. In other words now having BPC turned off not only looks better in the preview, it's also better in the actual print. Has anyone encountered this? Is this a possible bug?

Hi Markus,
Not quite - what the article shows is that BPC is generally a good choice if you are moving from a color space or range of colors in your image (Adobe RGB, for example) that are greater than those in the destination space (nearly any print device) because it keeps the tonal range of the shadows in the image correctly related to each other by mapping the blackest black in your image to the blackest black possible on your output device then shifts the other blacks relatively. As John Nate says:
"the maximum black in Adobe RGB will be remapped to the slightly less dense black of the inkjet printer and all of the other tones will scale accordingly"
However, if you then have a situation where you have an image that has a very restricted black tonal range - an image that has already been prepared for newsprint, for example - and convert it to another space - Adobe RGB, for example - then instead of mapping the image accurately as it would appear in newsprint, BPC over-compensates and shifts the washed-out blacks of the 'correct' newsprint image to the deep blacks possible in Adobe RGB. So, if you are trying to get an accurate on-screen or inkjet proof from the newsprint-ready image, BPC will mess things up.
In short, most of the time when you are moving from sRGB or Adobe RGB etc. to inkjet or print, you can fairly safely leave it on. When you are dealing with images already converted to CMYK, and you want to maintain their appearance as it will be seen on print, it is best to leave it off.
Powerbook, Mac Mini (Intel) Mac OS X (10.4.8)
Powerbook, Mac Mini (Intel) Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Black Point Compensation, more detail on what's happening?

Photoshop help doesn't explain much about black point compensation. Can someone provide a complete explanation? I am particularly interested in knowing if the black point is being chosen from the image's source and destination ICC profiles, from the image data itself, or a combination of both. Once the black point(s) are determined, what adjustments are done?
Thanks,
-Chris.

A fair bit has been published online on the subject...
Andrew Rodney did a decent job with it... http://thedigitaldog.com/files/Black_Point_Compensation.pdf
-Noel

Printer Profiles and Onscreen proofing

Is there a way to adjust the options for Onscreen Proofing with ICC profiles in Aperture?
I downloaded and installed the Premium ICC printer profiles for the Epson Stylus Photo R2400 printer and have noticed an issue when I use Onscreen Proofing with these profiles, especially the matte ones. The screen display is muted as if the contrast is lowered and the colors compressed. I viewed the same image in Photoshop with Proof Colors and did not see this problem until I turned Simulate Paper Color on in the Customize Proof Condition dialog. Then the image took on the same appearance. Interestingly, the problem does not occur when I use the Epson profiles that are installed by default with the software that comes with the printer. The images print fine in Aperture (better than from Photoshop) using either the premium or default profile. I just can't use the premium profiles for onscreen proofing.
The bottom line is that the Epson Premium ICC printer profiles appear to be incorrectly built and do not simulate paper color accurately. In addition, Aperture appears to simulate paper color by default and I can't find a way to turn it off. This is unfortunate since the default Epson profiles, which are less accurate for printing, provide more accurate onscreen proofing.
Dual 2.3 GHz PowerPC G5 Mac OS X (10.4.6) 2.5 GB DDR2 SDRAM, NVIDIA 7800GT

I'm having the same issue and would love here a solution.
Tim

Onscreen proof very different than photoshop.

I just installed the various ICC profiles for my new Epson R2400 printer that are available on Epson's support web site. When I display a photo and use one of these ICC profiles for Onscreen Proofing as the Proofing Profile the image becomes horribly washed out. At first I thought "oh, you just can't compete with real light RGB" but they were pretty bad. So I opened the photos into CS2 and used the same ICC profile as a Proof Setup and did the same Proof Colors. Now in CS2 there was a very slight change - more of what you'd expect in a true proof. Now I haven't printed yet but I'm wondering if I should do all my printing from CS2 rather than Aperture. Or will the outputs be the same and there is just something wrong with the way Aperture proofs on screen. Thanks.
-Josh

Well I printed my first picture on my new R2400 using aperture directly. I used the Premium Glossy paper that came with the printer and I used the PremGlossyRPM ICC profile. Spectacular. Came out better than I thought, and definitely better than the Apple printed 8x10 I had ordered. So I'll just ignore soft proofing.
I loved Endura surface E. Any paper advice?

Onscreen Proofing issue

I am trying to find a way to use the Onscreen Proofing feature in Aperture in a similar way to the technique that can be used in Photoshop to adjust the proofed image to match the original.
In Aperture I duplicate the version I wish to print.
I select the original and the duplicate versions such that the duplicate is the primary image and both images are displayed in the Viewer.
I choose a proofing profile for the paper I intend to use and enable Onscreen Proofing.
At this point BOTH images change slightly even though I have the Primary Only feature enabled.
What I want is to have only the duplicate version change when Onscreen Proofing is enabled so that I can adjust it to match the original version.
Is this possible?
Paul

No, not possible.
Proofing is enabled (for everything), or proofing is not enabled. It's not set on an image-by-image basis.

White and black point vs ??

I never know which forum to post these things, so I'll start with the photographers.
 
 These three shots are as follows: (1) the camera raw version, (2) where I moved the sliders from the ends to approximately the beginning/end of the major portion of the histogram, and (3) using the threshold control to find the white and black points in the main part of the picture.
 
 Then, in the two adjusted versions, I lightened the image with the curves control.
 
 In both these cases, I used the grey dropper to touch the same spot on one of the rocks, to get the apparent neutral point.
 
 It seems to me that the threshold method to find the white and black points is preferred, based on the overall color and appearance of the finished adjustment.
 
 But, I've found on some images where the histogram has missing black and missing white, if I adjust the sliders to these two ends, I get pretty much the same outcome, as far as the contrast, color, and grey point.
 
 Could I have some advice on the preferred method to use in handling my image adjustments? Doing it the threshold method takes more time, and sometimes it's difficult to find the white and black points, or even the grey point.
 
 Thanks.
 
 Al
 
 
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<img alt="Picture hosted by Pixentral" src="http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1SlEeG9kfwzD34gVOEcCbg7Ktp83p3_thumb.jpg" border="0" />
 
 
<a href="http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1tIEs4eAyKz4sxamyVaYRlKjTIIfKj" /></a>
<img alt="Picture hosted by Pixentral" src="http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1tIEs4eAyKz4sxamyVaYRlKjTIIfKj_thumb.jpg" border="0" />
 
 
<a href="http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=17K3ewFXsGo4K2uH5TGfO06CdVayyn1" /></a>
<img alt="Picture hosted by Pixentral" src="http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/17K3ewFXsGo4K2uH5TGfO06CdVayyn1_thumb.jpg" border="0" />

Yes the image was purposely underexposed. What I was trying to accomplish was to speed up the shutter speed to remove the slight blurring and compensate by pulling data from the shadows. Even though the lens has an image stabilizer the amount of light wasn't enough for a proper sharp shot.
this image is before touch up
These two images are F/5.6, 1/20, ISO 800
After touch up
Better lit scene but shows slight motion blur
This last image is F/5.6, 1/4, ISO 800
I believe that I will have to wait next year and hope I have a faster lens by then. I just don't think the 28mm-135mm f/3.5-5.6 lens is fast enough. I was trying this without a tripod to get in tighter.
Also I was taking these shots without the flash to get the drama of the tree lights.
What I would have prefer is a shutter speed of 1/125 or better as it helps with my hands shaking I believe the slowest should be 1/60
And the lower the ISO the better for noise.
These preferences are what I am used to with my Canon G3 that does not have IS.
I am getting so off track here, lol. But anyways, here are the pictures.

Problem with Black Point adjustment

When making Black Point adjustments (with hot and cold highlights enabled) my photos suddenly turn completely blue. If I hold click the slider button, I can see the photo again as expected.
I also notice this histogram is empty.
I have the same problem with both my Nvidia and Radeon graphics cards.
This problem has started since my upgrade to 10.5.7
Has anyone else experience this? ...am I doing something wrong?

I think I have found the problem. For some reason the Black Point values were incrementing in much higher values than before.

Bad Posterization With Onscreen Proofing

Hey Everybody,
I just recently got Aperture and I LOVE it.
I'm only having one problem: I shoot RAW with my EOS 5D and need to output in the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 color space. I know I should have Onscreen Proofing turned on set to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 in order to correctly adjust my images for printing, but when this feature is turned on, the images in the preview pane show SEVERE posterization and poor image quality. Can anyone help me out with this?
Thanks,
Nick
iMac Intel Core Duo 20" Mac OS X (10.4.7)

Thanks for the input so far. The color profile I'm
using for proofing is sRGB IEC 61966-2.1. This is
because I don't print at home and my photo lab
requests all files to be in this color profile.
Even if you submit your files in sRGB for printing, using that for proofing will not help you understand what a print will look like, because most printers do not have as wide a color space as even sRGB. That merely helps them not have to do profile conversion before printing.
You need to either get a profile from them, or figure out what printer they use and find a profile for that yourself.
The weird thing is that when I export the image, it
doesn't seem to have that posterization. It's only on
the preview in Aperture.
I'm not sure why you get this effect, I don't get anything very noticable when I use the IEC61966-2.1 sRGB profile.
If I can think of any reason to proof for sRGB, the only one would be perhaps to see what an image might look like on a web page after exporting to that space. Still you should not see posteization you do not see outside Aperture after exporting.

Set Black Point to 0 by default in Aperture 2.x?

Hello
(First post - have lurked a little on here for a while, but have not had a question of my own until now)
Has anyone found a way to set the Black Point slider on the Exposure brick (or any other slider for that matter) to zero as a default? Otherwise, with the Exposure control is off a Black Point of 3 is applied, which clips my images.
(by a happy miracle, my camera gets the black point right most of the time, provided I set it right)
So far I've had to create an image with my preferred 'flat' settings to Lift & Stamp across to new imports, or create a preset for the Exposure brick that then has to be manually applied, and both of these methods seem rather clunky for a Pro app. I'm not averse to hacking text files, if that is what it takes...
Thanks,
Matt

I'd like to know as well, is there a way to set the default black point to zero instead of the 3.00?

Aperture2 - Recovery and Black Point adjustments question

I purchased the Aperture2 upgrade and, I'm impressed!!!
I have a question:
In the *Adjustment Tab*:
Two features in the *Exposure area, "Recover and Black Point"*, works sometimes and other times it does not.
There must be a reason for it - I just can't figure out why this happens. One would think that it should work all the time!?
Anyone know?

C and Scott, thanks so much for trying to help this old codger learn new tricks.
All the images I imported into Aperture2 are projects already completed and therefore I won't need to make adjustments to them. I was using them to test and learn the new Aperture2 features.
But, Just in case I ever need to convert a RAW image from A1x to the A2 format I'll know how to do it.
As I said before, as long as my new RAW images that I import directly into A2 have all the features available, I'm a happy camper. I won't be importing any images into A2 until after my shoot this evening, so, do you know if this is the case?

Recovery and Black Point on JPEG images

I'm not a big fan of trying to do much editing on JPEG images aside from non-exposure/white balance type stuff. I'll crop and straighten, etc.
My question pertains to (for those in the know) applying slight Recovery and Black Point correction to images that aren't shot in RAW format. A) will applying these slight changes having any effect (hopefully a positive one) on the images? B) if not, will it indeed have a negative effect?
Thanks for your time and expertise.
Mac

Jim,
Thanks for chiming in on a topic where I didn't expect to get many replies. All of your comments are well appreciated. I was basically asking because I was under the impression that unless your master is in RAW format, making adjustments to exposure, contrast and even recovery and black point would not do much and could even be detrimental to things such as skin tone, etc. I like to shoot in RAW for the reason of being able to have more fine control to adjustments, but for everyday shots and portraits I don't always go to RAW format since a lot of the time I have trouble getting the shot right with the manual controls. I also don't want the large RAW files for every shot that I take. Still, a lot of JPEG's need adjustments, even if just minor tweaks. The tweaks I make look fine on the screen, but I wasn't sure if they would look okay when printed out and I didn't want to spend countless hours making adjustments and spend (waste) money on prints that weren't going to come out good.
Anyway, that is the background to my thinking in making this post. Thanks again for chiming in.
Mac

Setting a White Point and Black Point

I would like to suggest for future versions of lIghtroom to have an ability to set the white point and black points similar to levels and curves in Photoshop. This would be in addition to setting middle grey in the white balance settings currently in Lightroom. I find that the method of using Threshold to find the closest white and black pixels and then using these points to set the black and white points in curves or levels provides a better way to fix a color cast than the methods available in Lightroom.

MB,
There is no real need for Black and White point eyedropper type tools in Lightroom. By holding down the Alt key while changing the Blacks or Exposure sliders the display will show the areas that are being clipped. This is much faster than looking around for the darkest and lightest areas manually. If you just like to click to taste (like using the White balance dropper) then forget the Alt key and just move the sliders until you get the desired look.
Remember that the problem with Photoshop is that there are so many ways to do the same thing that it has become difficult and bloated. Lightroom strives to keep the interface as clear as possible.

Black point compensation for onscreen proofing

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